145 replies to this topic

[aditya-now]

Thank You! I've voted now. Sorry for all the trouble...

No problem, thanks for participating!

Now I have even included Simone de Silvestro (as required) in the place of Adrian Sutil, who also did not draw any votes. However, the means available come to an end here, there is no more place for including further drivers and there is no function "please fill in name:.......".

So my excuses if the option you would chose is not available.

[Gareth]

Hi Gareth,

I was watching the point you make with great interest myself.

At the time when I added the option "what they do on the race track" 77 votes had been cast, 68 of those for "personality, attitude, ability and style".
Now we are at 221 votes cast, and we have 134 for "personality, attitude, ability and style" (an increase of 66) while in the same time 29 votes have been cast for option "what they do on the race track".

That means, more than twice as many (66) voted for "personality, attitude, ability and style" compared to 29 "what they do on the race track". So although the complete picture is distorted by some options having been added only at 77 votes (and actually some members abstained from voting until they were given the options to do so), it still gives you a good picture of the tendency, that people care more for the personality of the driver than for what they do on the race track.

I had an inkling that it is so, but still am surprised how clearly this shows statistically.

Thanks for tracking that

[Mandzipop]

I'm British, when I was a kid I supported the drivers from the UK. Then I supported Schumacher, carried on supporting Ferrari and now also support Vettel. So my favourite team is Italian, therefore I have to support the drivers, Spanish and Brazilian, but I also support a German driver (still have a soft spot for an older German driver but it isn't the same when he isn't in a Ferrari).

I was quite spoiled at Abu Dhabi, I had the choice of Alonso or Vettel, but I was much happier for Vettel. I like Vettel because he makes me laugh. I liked Vettel from his first race at Indy 2007, kinda felt sorry for his as he was filling big boots at such a young age. Aww bless. I liked Schumachers personality (off track). I started to like him after an interview he gave with Murray after he broke his leg.

[Rich]

If I supported drivers based on nationality, then I'd have had to support Jody Scheckter. So not much choice there. Instead, over the years, I've followed mainly Emerson Fittipaldi, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost and Michael Schumacher. Four different countries. I would undoubtedly have been a Jim Clark fan if I'd started watching F1 while he was racing. So that would have been five different countries. As can be seen from the drivers, I don't have any team loyalties either, as my drivers variously drove for JPS/McLaren, Ferrari/McLaren, Renault/McLaren/Ferrrari/Williams, Benetton/Ferrari/Mercedes and (if I included Clark) then Lotus too.

I can't say what motivated me to support the drivers I did, probably just a feeling that they were special. I stopped supporting drivers around 2003, probably because advancing age made it harder for me to imagine anything special about them. And that's how I view most today - talented professionals, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, but nothing really special that merits support. I think the greater access to drivers and the media reporting on what they say probably also contributes to it. I never once heard Emo Fittipaldi talk, or read what he'd said or thought. So it's lot easier to assume that someone has special powers when all you see of them is a helmet and them racing on track.

Although the media sometimes has the opposite effect too. I recently watched the Top Gear episode that featured AC/DC vocalist Brian Johnson. What an ace bloke! So I ended up liking a guy who, without that interview, I'd never have even thought about.

[billm99uk]

Done, I changed the Timo Glock option to "I don´t have a favorite driver" as no one voted him - so you can vote now.

Aww... poor Timo!

[gaston_foix]

"Lewis rise brought a new wave of young radical fans that are about to damage the image about UK fans and F1 followers".

This is both rubbish and highly insulting.

I'm not a radical and I know from another survey I'm in the upper age group of those on this forum. I'm certain that the vast majority of us who support Lewis do so because, from the evidence we have seen, he's probably the fastest guy out there and he gives 110% every time.

We're not alone in this view, because Mark Hughes agrees with this, and he should know.

We also admire the facts that Lewis doesn't expect to be the No 1 driver at McLaren, nor does he want an inferior team mate who's required to move over for him. Button, Weber and Vettel are the other leading drivers who deserve credit for this kind of attitude.

Of course, many of us also have a sneaking admiration for Lewis for the fact that, good driver though he undoubtably is, Alonso couldn't live with him at McLaren. Given the evidence of Button's first year with the team, this says more about flaws in Alonso's character than in Lewis or the McLaren team.

The British are well known for their sense of fair play. It's therefore no surprise that most of us hate the thought of there being team orders, nor do we have a lot of respect for drivers who can see nothing wrong in celebrating a race win gained because their teammate moved over.

Of course, I will now be accused of being an Alonso hater.
I'm not - Alonso is undoubtedly fast and, with the exception of Jenson (and one disasterous lapse in 2010 ), he probably has the best strategic brain out there. I just can't respect him very much.


As an aside, I suspect that many Ferrari fans will support Monte's repeated call for the team to be allowed to run three cars.
All that will do is give the team two No 2 drivers they can order to move out of Alonso's way.

Is this the kind of thing we really want to see in F1 ?

It was far for me to point a finger on a specifically 1 person or to say that all British are like this. You maybe not read all I've said.

About the bolden parts, I'm beginning to question your assignment to"the upper age group of those on this forum". To say that there were not team orders at Redbull and McLaren is purely childish. Have you forgot about France 2008 and Germany 2008? Have you forgot about Ron Denis words: "Heikki, Lewis is faster than you"?

Maybe some British sometimes forget their sense of fair play. Hypocrisy is ultimately one of my favorite sin.

Edited by gaston_foix, 17 December 2010 - 11:17.

[gaston_foix]

Guess I'll be the only honest person in this thread then.... I support the best driver who is most like me and I tend to cheer against drivers who come from countries where I cant stand the people.... I am not comfortable with this - in fact, I am very disappointed in myself - but hey... sport is war and tribalism in a nice safe form. No harm is done.

I'm not fooled by most the people claiming they just like the driving and arnt influenced by nationality/ethnicity... I've seen the rest of your posts and its not too hard to work out that 70% of the people on here have some other reason than just driving or personality for supporting (and in some cases hating) who they do.

Thankfully, the driver most like me happens to be arguably the best right now... but I'd probably support him anyway. Its funny, I'm only like this in F1. I wouldnt cheer for James Blake in Tennis and I think Tiger Woods is douche.... but I'll defend LH's right to "break the tow" and "accidentally" run pass the safety car and lie to stewards, etc, etc all day long... Maybe its because there seems to be so much irrational hatred on F1 boards and in the some media, which is not in those other sports that I feel the need to support some very questionable behaviour that I probably would not support in another sport... but then, they are all a bunch of cheats in F1... and they are all very very talented and there is very little to choose between them just based on skill alone... so we tend to be motivated by something else... if we are honest.

I'm not like you, but I hope I'm at least as honest as you.

[Rich]

Guess I'll be the only honest person in this thread then....

So you can't be honest unless you admit that ethnicity is the overwhelming factor in choosing your favourite driver? Bizarre.

[jjcale]

So you can't be honest unless you admit that ethnicity is the overwhelming factor in choosing your favourite driver? Bizarre.

Someone should do a study in the frequency of the use of strawmen / mischaraterisations / putting words in others' mouths in "debates" on internet forums ....

I think I must be the only person in this thread who has said ethnicity/nationality/background/whatever you want to call it matters .... I find that frankly incongurous given the posts that I read here pretty much every day.... if it were otherwise there would not be this thread (and I should know as it was my comments in another thread - where I deplored the fact that ethnicity/nationality seems to be so important to so many of us - that led directly to this thread being started to see how prevalent this phenomenon is... and surprise, surprise no one other than me [who already said its not a good thing] seems prepared to admit to this).

Anyway, I'm not sure that Nelson Piquet, Senna and Montoya would agree that there are "like me" but if I am honest with myself I have to ask why is it that I am prone to support the (good) South American drivers and LH ... and the fact is that the only factor that makes sense to me is that I could more easily identify with them, for cultural reasons, than with other equally good or exciting drivers.... and a lot of that subconsious attraction/repulsion goes on, if we are honest.

The next big factor for me is whether a driver drives for Macca. I even managed to bring myself to cheer for DC (but my heart was not really in it!) and why is that?... because Ron Dennis is the team boss that I feel most closely alligned to .... for reasons I dont want to get in to since I would need to discuss my own business and professional background (and his team made great cars when I was at a more impressionable age!) ....but again the attraction is based on "who do I think is most like me".

Many people go through type of "reasoning" even if on a subconsious level ... maybe not a starky as me since they are not of my background... but they do all the same. Go the RK thread - it is full of Poles. The FA thread has lots of Spaniards. The LH thread is full of Brits (quite a of them black people).... are you trying to tell me that nationality/ethnicity plays no part in the attraction of these people to their favourite drivers (to pick but three examples)???

Edited by jjcale, 17 December 2010 - 11:43.

[prty]

About the topic, I don't know. Before supporting Alonso, believe it or not, I strongly supported Schumacher. But then in MotoGP I can't stand Lorenzo or Pedrosa and prefer Rossi to win over them. So I think all things equal, I'd support a Spanish driver, but if I dislike the personality, I wouldn't feel like supporting at all.

I think this is the general behavior, so the answer "I generally favour drivers from certain nations (e.g. Great Britain, Brazil, Finland, Austria)" having only a 6% is a bit fishy to me, specially when this is a British board, and Hamilton and McLaren are the driver and team with most fans here. Must be a coincidence

Edited by prty, 17 December 2010 - 11:42.

[aditya-now]

If I supported drivers based on nationality, then I'd have had to support Jody Scheckter. So not much choice there.

There is Ian Scheckter and Tomas Scheckter as well ;)

[Rich]

There is Ian Scheckter and Tomas Scheckter as well ;)

Well, Saffie racing is a bit more than just the Scheckters. When I was most involved in going to see GP and race meetings, the two big heroes in local F1 were Dave Charlton and John Love. Although Love was a Zimbo and not a Saffie. I preferred Love although Charlton routinely thumped him. Still, John Love was responsible for what imo was one of the most sporting gestures ever. At the final race of the season, his only rival for the championship (John McNicol) couldn't take his place on the grid because his car developed a problem. Love asked the race officials to delay the start so that McNicol could get his car repaired and race. That is the type of driver I admire, regardless of how fast he is, where he comes from or who he drives for.

[Rich]

Many people go through type of "reasoning" even if on a subconsious level ... maybe not a starky as me since they are not of my background... but they do all the same. Go the RK thread - it is full of Poles. The FA thread has lots of Spaniards. The LH thread is full of Brits (quite a of them black people).... are you trying to tell me that nationality/ethnicity plays no part in the attraction of these people to their favourite drivers (to pick but three examples)???

It surprises you that Poles support Kubica, or Spaniards support Alonso? Really? Seriously? Would it also surprise you that there are more Bears fans in Chicago than, say, Panthers fans? Of course people are going to show nationalistic/state/city/neighbourhood tendencies in supporting teams or drivers. You needed a poll to illustrate the obvious?

However, that's not what this is about, is it? It's about who people don't support - and why. Well, let me answer that with a parallel to another sport - cricket. There is an oft-repeated saying among cricket fans around the world that "the West Indies is everybody's second-favourite team after their home nation". In the context of who cricket's primary audience is, and the ethnicity of the Windies players, that should tell you a lot about the role of ethnicity in generating supposed "hatred" for sports stars of a different colour.

Or take football. Again, it's probably true to say that, for most fans around the world, Brazil is their second-favourite team after their home nation. Look at the ethnicity of Brazil's players and ask yourself again - is ethnicity the antipathy-generating factor that some think it is?

Edited by Rich, 17 December 2010 - 14:23.

[paulrobs]

Does your favorite driver have to be from a certain nation?

No, of course not, that would be irrational and a bit discriminatory.

I'm actually ok with any other driver as long as they are not German, Australian, Russian, Swiss, Austrian, Finnish, Japanese, Polish, Spanish, Italian or Brazilian...

[aditya-now]

Well, Saffie racing is a bit more than just the Scheckters. When I was most involved in going to see GP and race meetings, the two big heroes in local F1 were Dave Charlton and John Love. Although Love was a Zimbo and not a Saffie. I preferred Love although Charlton routinely thumped him. Still, John Love was responsible for what imo was one of the most sporting gestures ever. At the final race of the season, his only rival for the championship (John McNicol) couldn't take his place on the grid because his car developed a problem. Love asked the race officials to delay the start so that McNicol could get his car repaired and race. That is the type of driver I admire, regardless of how fast he is, where he comes from or who he drives for.

Thanks for the clarification, Rich. My post was meant in a joking way, of course, but it's great you are bringing in Dave Charlton and John Love. And it's great for any country if they have sportsmen they can be proud of.

While to have national preferences is obviously not politically correct these days any more, I see no problem in it at all. Ayrton Senna was a great example for the Brazilians and did a lot for the Brazilian self-confidence.
So did Alonso/Spain and Kubica/Poland and Schumacher/Germany.

As long as the love for "their" sportman is not leading to denigrating the sportsmen/women of other countries, that is all very fine and good.

Indeed Lewis Hamilton plays a role in that too, as he brings in a different generation into the sport, and by his ethnicity and positive example he does a lot for integration and good-will.

This was also the intention of this thread: to show, that we are already beyond nationalism in it's crude forms, and that we care more for what the sportman stands for. The poll of this thread is a clear testimony to that.
Neither their nationality nor even "what they do on track" can budge an inch with who they are as a person. Personality counts first and foremost, and if Lewis or Fernando get scorned sometimes, I suppose it has to do primarily with their personality and not ethnicity. Of course, there is the vocal minority, the can be racial, thank you very much. But like in soccer, where hooligans represent only a very small fraction of the whole number of fans, it is the same here. Nonetheless, hooligans and/or being racial is not acceptable by any means, to be clear on that.

[Asconte]

However, that's not what this is about, is it? It's about who people don't support - and why.

Is my dislike for Kubica on and off the track makes me a bad person then?

[Mc_Silver]

I m from Turkey and i support Lewis Hamilton because his aggressive fearless driving style makes him the favourite to me.

[jjcale]

It surprises you that Poles support Kubica, or Spaniards support Alonso? Really? Seriously? Would it also surprise you that there are more Bears fans in Chicago than, say, Panthers fans? Of course people are going to show nationalistic/state/city/neighbourhood tendencies in supporting teams or drivers. You needed a poll to illustrate the obvious?

but that is exactly what most people in this thread claim that the are above doing ...

However, that's not what this is about, is it? It's about who people don't support - and why. Well, let me answer that with a parallel to another sport - cricket. There is an oft-repeated saying among cricket fans around the world that "the West Indies is everybody's second-favourite team after their home nation". In the context of who cricket's primary audience is, and the ethnicity of the Windies players, that should tell you a lot about the role of ethnicity in generating supposed "hatred" for sports stars of a different colour.

Or take football. Again, it's probably true to say that, for most fans around the world, Brazil is their second-favourite team after their home nation. Look at the ethnicity of Brazil's players and ask yourself again - is ethnicity the antipathy-generating factor that some think it is?

Really....

I'm not entirely sure why you want to go down this road today ... but you will need another partner to do so.

[Rich]

but that is exactly what most people in this thread claim that the are above doing ...

However, it's not what the poll respondents are claiming. Many have stated quite plainly that they support drivers according to nationality or the team they drive for. The problem is that you are looking for a "one size fits all" conclusion and there isn't one. You want people to admit that they use nationality and ethnicity to pick a driver or else they're not being honest with themselves. Your assertion that you were the only honest person in the thread, because you admit to liking Lewis for his ethnicity, backs that up.

It's not that simple. You don't need a poll to sense what people think. You can deduce it based on common sense, and on these factors:
1) F1 is widely followed but not all countries are represented by drivers in the field. So, for many people, supporting a driver from their nation is not an option. Are they necessarily lying when they say that nationality/ethnicity plays no part in their choice?
2) For those nations who are represented, it's a fair bet that their drivers will garner quite a high percentage of the "home" support. But not always. Even during the height of the Schumacher/Hill rivalry, there were Brits who supported Schumacher and Germans who supported Hill. Again, they are not necessarily lying when they say that nationality/ethnicity plays no role in their choice. Nevertheless, the general view would have been for Brits to support Hill and Germans to support Schumacher.

So yeah, any poll is going to give you a significant percentage who support home drivers and a significant percentage who don't. Without any dishonesty being involved at all.

It applies across all sports. While it is fair to say that most people who live in Manchester will probably support either United or City in footie, there are many who won't - and a for a variety of reasons:
1) The person may have grown up in another area, supported another team from childhood, and only later moved to Manchester.
2) They might support a non-Manchester team based on the perception that said team plays more attractive football.
3) They might have problems with the way that the Manchester teams are run and turn their support to other teams as a gesture of protest. Think of the Londoners who refuse to support Chelsea (even though it may be their "neighbourhood" team) because of Abramovich.
4) They may simply be surrounded by United or City fans, so they root for someone else to deliberately antagonise those around them and to "stand out from the herd".

These are all valid reasons, there is not necessarily any dishonesty involved.

I see you've withdrawn somewhat from your original assertion that you would be the only honest person in the thread, and have now downgraded that to most people being dishonest. Although even that is an exaggeration in my view. The poll results show quite clearly that people are happy to indicate that they base their preferences on nationality or team.

[Rich]

Is my dislike for Kubica on and off the track makes me a bad person then?

No. It's not a crime to dislike drivers and there are any number of reasons to do so.

[billm99uk]

No. It's not a crime to dislike drivers and there are any number of reasons to do so.

That big nose, for a start

[Asconte]

I think that qustions in the second sector could have been worded differently, becuse of inherent ambiguity they contain.

I do not choose driver because he is "best on the grid". It just happend that my driver was choosen initially from mid pack position and worked himslef to be a leading driver. I have choosen then option below:

Realistically my favorite driver may not be the best driver on the grid, as much as I like him to be...

Edited by Asconte, 17 December 2010 - 16:50.

[jjcale]

However, it's not what the poll respondents are claiming. Many have stated quite plainly that they support drivers according to nationality or the team they drive for. ...
.....

Perhaps I should view the poll (I didnt vote and I havent looked at it).

I had a look through the thread before joining in... I dont mean to be pedantic but I did say "the thread" and I havnt made any reference to the poll before now. Perhaps the people who take things other than just driving into account are a bit too embarassed to post and its only those who feel they are on the right side of the question who are in the thread.... but I do recognize quite a few of the people in the thread who say only driving matters to them and I know in some specfic cases that that is not true... but I am not about to embarrass them taking them to task individually.

As for me being "the only honest" one, that's just a rhetorical flourish. I dont mean I am the only honest person here... I expect most people to take that statement for what it was and not read it literally.... I try to make my posts interesting. If that leaves me open to attack for a bit of an innocent exaggeration here or there then so be it.

Edited by jjcale, 17 December 2010 - 17:04.

[Bouncing Pink Ball]

It's a stretch to say "most" folks in this thread are being dishonest because they aren't all claiming to support those most like them. Without knowing which people responded - I'd hazard a guess many of those interested in a thread like this are the ones who've noticed the amount of nationality-based support and don't fit that mold - it's not a fair statement. However, there is definitely a strong fan base that gravitates toward their "own" drivers. That's common in all sports, hence the popularity of the Olympics, for instance. IMO, the number claiming neutrality in terms of nationality is a wee bit high.

I'm not a Brit. I'm not black, not Christian, not into video games, not a race car driver...really, I can't think of much I have in common with Lewis, aside from the fact he seems like a nice guy and I like to think I'm a decent person. Heck, I don't even share his taste in music. He's my favourite because:

I followed him in GP2.
He drives aggressively, and I like that.
I also like his attitude - always ready to race, always trying to win.
He drives for, and has been helped along the junior path, by my favourite team.

As for my trio of 'other guys I support', well...I'm also not Spanish, not Polish, not Japanese, not even a guy, for that matter. I don't speak any languages in a fluent manner beside French and English. I can't even read Polish, or Japanese (though I do love Anime, does that count for anything?). When it comes to sports I actually care about and follow, I genuinely do cheer for those I like to watch compete or whose skill I admire. Now, if we're talking World Hockey or something else I don't care a whit for, I'll back Canada just because I like my country to win things too.

[jjcale]

You know what, I withdraw my earlier comment which suggested that everybody else in this thread or most them are being dishonest... I'm not trying to call you guys liars (I meant you were not looking deeply into yourselves, not that you are being deliberatly dishonest).

I know for sure that some specific ones in this thread are not being truthful when they say that nationalism etc does not affect them (but I dont think they meant to be deliberately dishonest) and I can accept that most in the thread are being honest (in every sense of the word) when they say that the are not impacted by nationalism and other similar factors in deciding which driver to support... that said, I dont think this is represenatative of the forum. I'd reckon that most here (in the forum) are affected by nationalism etc in some way.

[Rich]

Perhaps the people who take things other than just driving into account are a bit too embarassed to post and its only those who feel they are on the right side of the question who are in the thread....

Why do you feel that there is a "right" approach to this? It's easy for me to be neutral in F1 because there are no Saffie drivers or teams. But in golf, for example, I make no excuses for being an Ernie Els fan. It's not just that he's a Saffie, I like his approach and personality as well. And there are some Saffie golfers that I don't like. But Ernie being a fellow Saffie is a big factor in my decision to support him. I don't see why I should feel obliged to justify it. I'm certainly not going to cite a liking for Tiger or Vijay Singh just to show that I'm "culturally aware and not blindly nationalistic". Nor do I feel that I need to give a detailed analysis of Ernie's swing versus other top players to prove that "it's only about the swing, national or ethnic factors aren't in play." Bollocks to that. I like him mainly because he's a Saffie. What other reason do I need?

[aditya-now]

You know what, I withdraw my earlier comment which suggested that everybody else in this thread or most them are being dishonest... I'm not trying to call you guys liars (I meant you were not looking deeply into yourselves, not that you are being deliberatly dishonest).

I know for sure that some specific ones in this thread are not being truthful when they say that nationalism etc does not affect them (but I dont think they meant to be deliberately dishonest) and I can accept that most in the thread are being honest (in every sense of the word) when they say that the are not impacted by nationalism and other similar factors in deciding which driver to support... that said, I dont think this is represenatative of the forum. I'd reckon that most here (in the forum) are affected by nationalism etc in some way.

It is clear that we all have a tendency to lean towards those we call "our own". However, some Austrians are really idiots, and just that I happen to be an Austrian as well does not mean I like them. Same goes for every nation and ethnicity, and I think this takes the precedence over "national likes or dislikes".

I think how people are responding in this poll and thread depends also largely on how international, how national or how provincial they are. Their background, which is what is shaping us and we cannot escape it, plays a role in how much nationalism or internationalism plays a role in their likes.

In my case, while I lived in Austria, Rindt and Lauda were my clear favourites, but then the advent of Didier Pironi and Gilles Villeneuve already changed that. (Ironically, exactly those two got entangled with each other by fate in a very weird way, but both are to this day some of my absolute favourites.

When I still lived in Austria, Berger was not my favourite (although he is a lovely chap and a great driver), but Senna was. When I started my international odyssey as an expatriate (three years Netherlands, one year Czech Republic, two years Brazil, five years US of America, one year Switzerland, one year Italy and now eight years Germany) my driver favourites had nothing to do anymore with any nationality.

So maybe our provincial/national/international exposure subconsciously influences our likes. In my case there is certainly a correlation.

Edited by aditya-now, 17 December 2010 - 18:20.

[aditya-now]

Thanks for tracking that

An update here: at 253 votes (from 221 votes before), that is to say, 32 voters onwards, only 4 have voted for "To me, "favorite driver" is about what they do on the race track!", while 19 have voted for "No, I choose drivers I support based on their personality, attitude, ability and style!".

This means nearly five times as many votes for personal style of the driver as compared to what the driver does on the track. While somehow expected, I am amazed how strongly the perception of the driver as a human being stays ahead of all other factors.

[Asconte]

I did missed her name on the list earlier on, but how did Simona got on this poll? I saw her this Summer, and she was flying steady with that car. I have admiration for her speed; something I cannot achieve. Great young lady!

Edited by Asconte, 17 December 2010 - 18:32.

[jjcale]

Why do you feel that there is a "right" approach to this? It's easy for me to be neutral in F1 because there are no Saffie drivers or teams. But in golf, for example, I make no excuses for being an Ernie Els fan. It's not just that he's a Saffie, I like his approach and personality as well. And there are some Saffie golfers that I don't like. But Ernie being a fellow Saffie is a big factor in my decision to support him. I don't see why I should feel obliged to justify it. I'm certainly not going to cite a liking for Tiger or Vijay Singh just to show that I'm "culturally aware and not blindly nationalistic". Nor do I feel that I need to give a detailed analysis of Ernie's swing versus other top players to prove that "it's only about the swing, national or ethnic factors aren't in play." Bollocks to that. I like him mainly because he's a Saffie. What other reason do I need?

Intellectually, I think the right approach is to back a driver based solely on on-track performance and his personality/character (and possibly his team). I think things like nationalism and ethnicity should be left out of it (even if I cant bring myself to follow that ideal in practice)....

If you are a serious fan of a sport and you are knowledgeable you should be able to look beyond the fact that a player hails from the same country as you and you should be able to pick up more important characteristics that the player has which you admire (or dislike as the case may be). So you may wish Ernie well and even cheer for him but if you are a serious golf fan the fact that he is a fellow "Saffie" should not be enough, by itself, to make him your favourite golfer... over time there will be qualities in golfers that you find that you admire more than others and slowly you will find that someone from some other place than SA has those qualities to a greater extent than Ernie and you will start to support that person alongside (and perhaps even in opposition to) Ernie ... even if you might not really let on to your "saffie" mates who are also golf fans.

If after a number of years of being a fan you are still stuck at supporting your countrymen, your knowledge of a sport would have to be stunted in order to allow this IMO -unless it is one of the true "proxy for war" type sports like football where fans have to be segregated because a major reason for the "game" is to give an outlet for our natural tendency towards tribalism.

F1 is different from such sports, it has always been an internationalist sport that attracts a multinational elite. How many people in any part of the world are F1 fans and what are the backgrounds? even the averge fan tends to be from the top half of their society. Until recently none of the teams openly represented countries - even Ferrari, which before force India and 1Malaysia AKA Lotus was as far as things went. Even the drivers, who have a greater tenency than the teams to identify themselves with their home countries have never been seen as representing those countries. The anthems at the end of the race is about as much as F1 officially allowed (until recently) in terms of official national idenfication.

I do think that there is an ideal or a "right" approach (even if I and many others dont follow it in practice) ... and though this is no justification, I do think I am safely in the (ironically, non-practising?) majority on that.

[Rich]

I think you're confusing "support" with "insight". They're not the same thing. If you watch international cricket, there are several commentators who are ex-Test players. They are fantastically knowledgeable. They can instantly tell you what a batsman is doing wrong, what the bowler is going to try next, why the field has been set up in the way it has, how the pitch is going to develop and what sort of batting or bowling tactics will work best. Yet each of them still is undoubtedly loyal to their countries of origin. Does supporting their team and hoping they do well mean that their appreciation of the sport's techniques and finer points is stunted? I hardly think so.

[jjcale]

I think you're confusing "support" with "insight". They're not the same thing. If you watch international cricket, there are several commentators who are ex-Test players. They are fantastically knowledgeable. They can instantly tell you what a batsman is doing wrong, what the bowler is going to try next, why the field has been set up in the way it has, how the pitch is going to develop and what sort of batting or bowling tactics will work best. Yet each of them still is undoubtedly loyal to their countries of origin. Does supporting their team and hoping they do well mean that their appreciation of the sport's techniques and finer points is stunted? I hardly think so.

Ask them who their favourite cricketers are - how many will pick someone from their own country if they think there is a better cricketer from another country.... you are confusing "prefer" or "favourite" with "support".

In cricket, you can support your national team even if your favourite criketer plays for another team.

[Rich]

Ask them who their favourite cricketers are - how many will pick someone from their own country if they think there is a better cricketer from another country.... you are confusing "prefer" or "favourite" with "support".

In cricket, you can support your national team even if your favourite criketer plays for another team.

Ask them who their favourite team is. Then ask them who the best team is. I think that will answer your question. It certainly works for me. I support Ernie Els, but I'd never try to argue that he's a better golfer than Tiger. Assessment of technique or record is done with the head. Support is done with the heart.

To give a further example, I don't particularly like Jimmie Johnson in NASCAR. But I have no problem at all seeing and conceding that he is the best prepared, canny, very consistent, excellent on all types of track layout, and fast as well. You don't need to like someone to recognise their talent and excellence at what they do. Nor does someone need to be excellent at what they do in order to merit being liked and supported. Dale Jr is supported widely in NASCAR. I don't think anybody is claiming he's the most talented driver in the field. Well, maybe a few would, but that doesn't mean that blind loyalty applies to everyone.

Edited by Rich, 17 December 2010 - 20:39.

[jjcale]

Ask them who their favourite team is. Then ask them who the best team is. I think that will answer your question. It certainly works for me. I support Ernie Els, but I'd never try to argue that he's a better golfer than Tiger. Assessment of technique or record is done with the head. Support is done with the heart.

To give a further example, I don't particularly like Jimmie Johnson in NASCAR. But I have no problem at all seeing and conceding that he is the best prepared, canny, very consistent, excellent on all types of track layout, and fast as well. You don't need to like someone to recognise their talent and excellence at what they do. Nor does someone need to be excellent at what they do in order to merit being liked and supported. Dale Jr is supported widely in NASCAR. I don't think anybody is claiming he's the most talented driver in the field. Well, maybe a few would, but that doesn't mean that blind loyalty applies to everyone.

I understand you... I am talking about the normative not the positive. What should be, not what is. I have said of myself that I do not follow this principle but I think that is a weakness, not a strenght.

Lets test the idea... if there was a Saffie in F1 today would you support him (assuming he was a decent driver an a reasonably nice fellow)?

[robefc]

Intellectually, I think the right approach is to back a driver based solely on on-track performance and his personality/character (and possibly his team). I think things like nationalism and ethnicity should be left out of it (even if I cant bring myself to follow that ideal in practice)....

Intellectually why support a driver at all? Why care about the performance of somebody in a game or sport when they don't know you, care about you and whether they win or not has nothing to do with you?

[jjcale]

Intellectually why support a driver at all? Why care about the performance of somebody in a game or sport when they don't know you, care about you and whether they win or not has nothing to do with you?

Intellectually, he provides me with entertainment and I want to see his style succeed and the others become more like him. I want to see more JPMs, LHs and KKs and fewer FMs and MWs.

I am not a massive fan of LH the person for instance (despite all my going on about how he is most like me) and I cant stand JP and I am indifferent to KK as a person.

My favourite personalilty is probably MW (he's a mensch!) and I think he should not even be in F1 his driving is so poor sometimes.

... but that's just me.

[Rich]

I understand you... I am talking about the normative not the positive. What should be, not what is. I have said of myself that I do not follow this principle but I think that is a weakness, not a strenght.

Lets test the idea... if there was a Saffie in F1 today would you support him (assuming he was a decent driver an a reasonably nice fellow)?

I can't honestly say. I'd have to see him first. Retief Goosen is a Saffie, a decent golfer and a reasonably nice fellow. I don't support him. Ernie just has something extra that I like.

Like I say, I never supported Jody even though he was a Saffie and won a WDC title. I supported John Love even though he wasn't really a Saffie, never even got a works F1 drive let alone winning a WDC title, and only competed in the SA GP, no others.

[Massa_f1]

No nation has nothing to do with it for me. I am British and have supported.


Mansell
Schumacher
Irvine
Button
Webber
Massa

[Bonaventura]

Intellectually, he provides me with entertainment and I want to see his style succeed and the others become more like him. I want to see more JPMs, LHs and KKs and fewer FMs and MWs.

I am not a massive fan of LH the person for instance (despite all my going on about how he is most like me) and I cant stand JP and I am indifferent to KK as a person.

My favourite personalilty is probably MW (he's a mensch!) and I think he should not even be in F1 his driving is so poor sometimes.

... but that's just me.

Intellectually F1 has not much do with intellect in terms of viewing or supporting it
The racing and the competition appeals more to our baser human instincts,
despite some/many of the people working at and for F1, are some of the brighter lights, than the human average
and the F1 cars are one of the better products of the human creativity

And you are right if you say most of the people search for similarities between them and the people they support
(Because we like more the well known than something strange)
This might be the nationality, the ethinic background,
the appearrance
the personality
or we just love/ support someone out of pure opposition to what we "should" support
but I think the most of us are not aware of the reasons why we support, whom we support
I think those decissions are made unconscious,
despite we think we know the reasons , and stand above our instinctive selection

so sorry JJ ;)
I don't think you are the only honest person here
you are one who has reflected over the reasons for your joice of your favourites

I don't know exactly why I support Lewis
It's definitively not the nationality , the background, appearance

It was simply the "Woohoo", I felt as I saw him racing
This boy is so full of live , so refreshing, a pure racer
and his personality (as far as we could know it) is something I like
sometimes a bit naive, fragile & vulnerable, "thinks" sometimes more with his heart than with his head
this is something I miss sometimes in a world of cool & calculating wiseacres

Edited by Bonaventura, 17 December 2010 - 23:02.

[aditya-now]

I did missed her name on the list earlier on, but how did Simona got on this poll? I saw her this Summer, and she was flying steady with that car. I have admiration for her speed; something I cannot achieve. Great young lady!

Rob29 was complaining she was not on the list, as she is his fav driver, so I replaced Adrian Sutil, whom nobody seems to favour, with Simona. Rob duly voted for her then...

How is that one for consistency: in question one 8 claim to have no favorite driver, in question two suddenly only 5 have no favorite driver, while in question three 6 have no favorite driver.....

[Asconte]

Rob29 was complaining she was not on the list, as she is his fav driver, so I replaced Adrian Sutil, whom nobody seems to favour, with Simona. Rob duly voted for her then...;)

How is that one for consistency: in question one 8 claim to have no favorite driver, in question two suddenly only 5 have no favorite driver, while in question three 6 have no favorite driver.....

Several explanations are available

- people do not understand their own feelings
- voting against, not for and it shows when the same question is being asked differently
- superficial assessment

and/or another bunch of similar reasons...

Edited by Asconte, 17 December 2010 - 23:59.

[Coral]

I don't know exactly why I support Lewis
It's definitively not the nationality , the background, appearance

It was simply the "Woohoo", I felt as I saw him racing
This boy is so full of live , so refreshing, a pure racer
and his personality (as far as we could know it) is something I like
sometimes a bit naive, fragile & vulnerable, "thinks" sometimes more with his heart than with his head
this is something I miss sometimes in a world of cool & calculating wiseacres

I'm glad Lewis is British, but his nationality is way down the list of the reasons I support him.

[alecc]

Where is the option "I started to watch F1 because my countryman got a seat in F1, but it was some years ago, and nowadays, I cheer for drivers that I like, were the nationality is a minor factor, altough, I cheer still for my countryman the most - thanks to him I started to follow this great motorsport"

[pinkypants]

nationality not really that important anymore, I became a fan of hill when I first started watching f1, since it's been more a combination of factors i.e. personality, driving style etc.

I have supported jacques v., hill, coulthard, hakkinen, kovi, senna, barrachello, lewis, vettel, chandok, montoya

[aditya-now]

Where is the option "I started to watch F1 because my countryman got a seat in F1, but it was some years ago, and nowadays, I cheer for drivers that I like, were the nationality is a minor factor, altough, I cheer still for my countryman the most - thanks to him I started to follow this great motorsport"

Like in Austria, Rindt and Lauda started a whole nation on F1, and now, even 40 years later it is one of the countries with a real F1 culture, even if the Österreichring, the Austrian GP got missing. Incidentally, we celebrate the WDC and WCC of an Austrian F1 team for the first time in history.

Likewise, Alonso started the whole of Spain on F1, Kubica started the whole of Poland on F1, and people in Spain and Poland nowadays have become very knowledgable on all things F1, and are not only cheering Fernando and Robert. And, who knows, maybe in 20 years a Spanish F1 team will be WDC/WCC and in 30 years a Polish F1 team WDC/WCC....

[aditya-now]

nationality not really that important anymore, I became a fan of hill when I first started watching f1, since it's been more a combination of factors i.e. personality, driving style etc.

I have supported jacques v., hill, coulthard, hakkinen, kovi, senna, barrachello, lewis, vettel, chandok, montoya

A Senna or B Senna?