66 replies to this topic

[WhiteBlue]

Ferrari revive break away threat.
With the core issue about the formula for 2013-2017 settled the players now turn to the thorny issue of money for the next five year period. Some voices think it is pathetic to consider a break away, like Bernie's lap dog at pitpass.

If anything has been shown by the past it is the power of the teams when they are united. They beat the manufacturers and FISA in the early eighties and they captured back the air superiority over the rule book in summer 2009. Since June 2009 FiA an FOTA have been united and have never given FOM an opportunity to split them. They can leverage F1 away from Bernie and CVC if they want it bad enough. The FiA will supervise an alternative series with another name if the teams split away from Bernie. CVC's 100 year contract has no meaning if Bernie has no cars to fill the F1 grid and all the teams and drivers run in a different series. Contrary to 2009 there are no teams that have any binding agreements with the FiA or FOM beyond 2012.

The old bugger is in for a hard ride IMO.

[Rob]

How will it end? The teams stay in F1.

How do I want it to end? The teams break away and in doing so, do away with CVC and their 100 year contract. The FIA sanction the series.

[FlatOverCrest]

As I put forward in another thread... I am not 100% convinced that Ferrari and Mercedes can bring themselves to running a 1.6 Litre Turbo engine in an F1 car. I am sure they would much rather keep a V8 powerplnt or even a V6, however they would probably build a 1.6Turbo if forced to, but it would seem a more natural engine choice for the likes of Ford, VW, Proton, Renault, etc, etc.

Now maybe that's what needs to happen and 1.6 is going to provide a huge spike in manufacturer interest in providing engines for F1, with many teams running lots of different manufacturer engines, however it might send Mercedes and Ferrari back to Sports cars and focus their efforts there? Maybe this was the future that BMW saw and didnt want to be part of, so pulled the rip cord early?

Who knows.... however I dont think 2013 regs are quite cut and dried as has been suggested to date.

[FigJam]

Ferrari have run a 1.5 litre V6 turbo engine previously in the 80's.

[King Six]

I don't think it has to do with the new regulations, the teams/manufacturers are generally fine with that. It's to do with money, FOM, Bernie, CVC and the share of it all, things like that.

F1 should have never found itself in a position where Bernie/CVC can suck so much out like that and have so much power, I'm all for an FIA sanctioned (hence why it's not a rules issue) breakaway series if it means wrestling off the grip of Bernie/CVC, no matter how much good people say they've done.

It'd still be F1 in everything but the name itself.

Edited by King Six, 17 December 2010 - 12:22.

[WhiteBlue]

As I put forward in another thread... I am not 100% convinced that Ferrari and Mercedes can bring themselves to running a 1.6 Litre Turbo engine in an F1 car.

Montezemolo confirmed in the interview that Ferrari will stick to the 1.6L L4 engines. They know that they have to be united and they have kicked off the program and the investment like all other manufacturer teams. There is no way back now.

[korzeniow]

you have to be very naive to belive in break away serie

Edited by korzeniow, 17 December 2010 - 12:27.

[WhiteBlue]

you have to be very naive to belive in break away serie

And you have to be dumb not to prepare for one. The more credible the threat the more money they will extract. I think they will take this pretty far if Bernie tries to toughen it out.

[dau]

Oh, look. It's the breakaway series threat again.

[primer]

How will it end? The teams stay in F1.

How do I want it to end? The teams break away and in doing so, do away with CVC and their 100 year contract. The FIA sanction the series.

I feel that FIA is the biggest threat.

But these teams are exceedingly dumb as their last round of 'fighting' with FIA showed. Once again they will settle for a small but more instant gratification instead of thinking long term. If CVC offer the teams 5% more than what they are earning right now, I expect the teams to sign the documents.

[korzeniow]

And you have to be dumb not to prepare for one. The more credible the threat the more money they will extract. I think they will take this pretty far if Bernie tries to toughen it out.

I doubt anyone will fall for this again. Last time teams used this strategy but some of them left anyway, teams lost credibility. Ferrari lost the leverage, theyare talking about leaving all the time, no one takes them seriously anymore. Ferrari was threating that they could leave F1 if FIA will punish them for Germany actions

[highdownforce]

Teams will cut a deal with FOM
70%

[Fastcake]

The teams are never going to leave F1, its just as empty a threat as it was last year. No team is stupid enough to try and organise a whole series, let alone a committee that are barely united as it is. I'm all for the teams getting a higher share, but I'd also prefer it if 5-10% say went towards driver development and such. Not that the teams will ever look beyond their own bank balance.

[WhiteBlue]

As allways Joe Saward is worth reading on political issues.

He thinks that F1 can switch the owner and have a sugar daddy with Abu Dhabi. It is all nice and optimistic to believe that Abu Dhabi with endless oil money will bail F1 out from the private equity capital and accept 15% where CVC took 50%. It would be wonderful but how realistic is that? I will believe it when I see it.

In the absence of a free lunch one needs to inspect the options that both sides actually have if the conflict continues. The FiA and FOTA have become very united against FOM. Where the FiA under Mosley would mainly take the FOM side now under the control of Todt it sides with FOTA. Bernie desperately tries to separate the two organizations but so far all the post June 2009 issues and conflicts have ended with a swift compromise between FiA and FOTA.

If a free lunch solution fails the unity between FiA and FOTA may turn into a huge problem for Bernie. He will get between a rock and a hard place trying to keep hold of the money for his CVC masters and keeping the teams on his F1 grid. None of the teams has signed a separate deal with him due to being broke and desperately needing money. With the RRA and the engines now all settled for cost containment it becomes increasingly likely that there will be no stragglers to pick from the flock.

As long as FOTA is united they will have the upper hand on Bernie and a break away is easy enough to do. They have no contractural obligations as they had in 2009. They must not delay a deal beyond 2011 because they have commitments towards their employees to meet. The FiA can administer any other world championship with another name and leave FOM with an empty 100 year shell.

So it really depends of either finding the “free” lunch or of CVC becoming realistic with their robbery attitude.

[paulrobs]

I'm thinking that the whole world is moving towards much more fuel efficient engines and motorpsort will surely do the same. With the EU legislation for average emissions for car makers I think every one of them will have to have a set of very efficient low emission engines within their range. Even Ferrari will do this. It's shame though isn't it. The sound of F1 is part of the show for me.

Will they break away? It's probably a bit of posturing and positioning going on at the moment to make sure the teams get what they perceive to be a more equitable split. That's not to say that a split couldn't happen. I still believe that a split is possible if the teams do not get what they want. On the other hand Bernie hasn't got to where he is now by giving money away that he doesn't think he needs to give away. He'll maybe not be around by then and his replacement(s) may take a much more pragmatic approach especially if they think there is a real possibility that they'll end up with a championship with few or even no recognised F1 teams taking part.

This one has a long way to run I think but I hope for the good of the sport that it does get sorted out. F1 wouldn't be F1 without the political posturing and odd dispute along the way would it.

[undersquare]

I would love it if they broke away and left the private equity leeches high and dry.

But I don't suppose they will, even though on the face of it appointing a new commercial body and even a new governing body would be pretty simple.

I voted 70%.

[billm99uk]

Oh no, not this rubbish again

[primer]

FOTA's threat is never credible. They do not have one person in their ranks who can conceptualize the organization of an entire racing series (logistics, broadcast rights, regulation, etc). They are not willing to hire an outsider to give substance to their threat, either. We saw how FOTA surrendered last time after making a lot of noise, they will do so again and again. CVC only have to throw a tiny morsel at them, FOTA then declare it to be a major victory.

Edited by primer, 17 December 2010 - 13:49.

[Gareth]

I expect this will end the same way they have all ended: with a compromise over the cash and the current system remaining in place.

This time round, though, the FIA's stance is different and they appear to be with the teams. There are rumours around that the FIA is struggling to balance its books: the suggestion seems to be that the income they will receive from FOM has been (or will be) lower than expected. If that's the case, a new series could be one way for the FIA to get itself out of a financial pickle and that (as well as the change in personalities) could explain the new found friendliness with the teams.

So the teams seem to have finally managed to remove stumbling block one for them: disunity. Seemingly, stumbling block 2 (contracts with FIA/FOM for some of the teams) has now passed. And perhaps they have removed stumbling block 3: the FIA?

As I said, I expect it to end as it has done each time this has been threatened in the past. But maybe this time round there's an increase in the chance that we see something different.

[King Six]

I can't see what's wrong with having more money for the teams (better budgets all round, more awesome cars/better competition), less money for Bernie and the possibility of smaller fees for race organisers, resulting in F1 not losing tracks like Spa and getting races back in places like France

[Birelman]

What a joke!

I think this time around, Bernie holds all the aces. In hindsight, we know what would have happened had the break away happened last time, Toyota, Honda, BMW, no new teams, etc.

It's a no brainer, Luca should just go to politics already.

[primer]

I think this time around, Bernie holds all the aces.

Bernie did not hold any aces the last time and he certainly won't this time around. He is a free agent whom CVC find convenient to use, so he gets to hang around. His "powers" are mythical.

[Fubar1979]

Are you saying bernie has no powe in F1 ? lol thats the funniest thing ive read in this forum

Bernie did not hold any aces the last time and he certainly won't this time around. He is a free agent whom CVC find convenient to use, so he gets to hang around. His "powers" are mythical.

[Asconte]

Ferrari revive break away threat.
With the core issue about the formula for 2013-2017 settled the players now turn to the thorny issue of money for the next five year period. Some voices think it is pathetic to consider a break away, like Bernie's lap dog at pitpass.

If anything has been shown by the past it is the power of the teams when they are united. They beat the manufacturers and FISA in the early eighties and they captured back the air superiority over the rule book in summer 2009. Since June 2009 FiA an FOTA have been united and have never given FOM an opportunity to split them. They can leverage F1 away from Bernie and CVC if they want it bad enough. The FiA will supervise an alternative series with another name if the teams split away from Bernie. CVC's 100 year contract has no meaning if Bernie has no cars to fill the F1 grid and all the teams and drivers run in a different series. Contrary to 2009 there are no teams that have any binding agreements with the FiA or FOM beyond 2012.

The old bugger is in for a hard ride IMO.

I applaud to sensible people like LDM. It would make no sense for teams to surrender before they lay down their stakes prior commencing negotiations (otherwise they could just as well sign 100 years contract now). Moreover, it is morally reprehensible that CVC should receive the greatest piece of the pie while teams do the all principle work.

[flyer121]

Are you saying bernie has no powe in F1 ? lol thats the funniest thing ive read in this forum

What he is saying is that Bernie is simply a frontman of CVC and his "apparent" powers stems from that.

[pup]

...like Bernie's lap dog at pitpass.

Hehe. Finally coming around on Sylt, eh?

[Birelman]

Bernie did not hold any aces the last time and he certainly won't this time around. He is a free agent whom CVC find convenient to use, so he gets to hang around. His "powers" are mythical.

By Bernie, I obviously mean CVC, as Bernie is in fact their representation.

Or if you prefer everytime I say Bernie I can write Bernie, who happens to hang around CVC as CVC bought it from him....yadda, yadda, yadda.... Last time I checked, it's still FOM

Anyway, back on topic, so, you don't think FOM hold the aces? what do you think are the options for these teams? break away? lol! it's not full of car manufacturers anymore, and more importantly, car manufacturers don't have a stronghold of the success in the series anymore, as an independent team like RedBull just bitchslapped the manufacturers around the track this year, more to the point, McLaren isn't a factory effort anymore, and look where the factory Merc and Ferrari ended up.

I don't think break away is even worth a discussion at this point. Had they broke away last time, we'd right now have like 5 teams racing LOL. Honda left, who knows what would have happened with Brawn, toyota, out, BMW, out, Renault, out, and the list probably would be growing.

Edited by Birelman, 17 December 2010 - 17:56.

[primer]

By Bernie, I obviously mean CVC, as Bernie is in fact their representation.

Or if you prefer everytime I say Bernie I can write Bernie, who happens to hang around CVC as CVC bought it from him....yadda, yadda, yadda.... Last time I checked, it's still FOM

AFAIK the arrangement is: CVC are the commercial rights holder, but they outsource certain tasks to FOM and other Bernie companies because setting up new apparatus to do these jobs would be more expensive. So it is a financial decision to keep Bernie around.

CVC are even more powerless than Bernie. Their power comes from the fact that they inherited the centurion lease from Bernie et al. But if major F1 teams do breakaway, CVC can do diddly-squat. They have a series with no recognizable teams. In that case wheeler-dealers like Bernie do become powerful since they know the players, and they know how to play the players against each other, and in the process get a cut for themselves.

FOTA's breakaway does not have any credibility. For this threat to be a real they need to have a published date at which they announce a new series, and at least one dedicated person who constantly campaigns the cause in media. The more they delay the matter, the stronger CVC's hand becomes. FOTA have already proven that do not have the brains to conceptualize a new series, even though they can pick up most of the constituent parts from the series they presently compete in. They'll make noises and then bend over for another 'n' years.

[Birelman]

AFAIK the arrangement is: CVC are the commercial rights holder, but they outsource certain tasks to FOM and other Bernie companies because setting up new apparatus to do these jobs would be more expensive. So it is a financial decision to keep Bernie around.

CVC are even more powerless than Bernie. Their power comes from the fact that they inherited the centurion lease from Bernie et al. But if major F1 teams do breakaway, CVC can do diddly-squat. They have a series with no recognizable teams. In that case wheeler-dealers like Bernie do become powerful since they know the players, and they know how to play the players against each other, and in the process get a cut for themselves.

FOTA's breakaway does not have any credibility. For this threat to be a real they need to have a published date at which they announce a new series, and at least one dedicated person who constantly campaigns the cause in media. The more they delay the matter, the stronger CVC's hand becomes. FOTA have already proven that do not have the brains to conceptualize a new series, even though they can pick up most of the constituent parts from the series they presently compete in. They'll make noises and then bend over for another 'n' years.

Let me get this straight, so, what you're saying is that, nobody is powerful, but, in the end of the day, after ranting like 5 year olds, the teams will sign an agreement with the powerless commercial rights owners.

Did I get this right?

[Mandzipop]

This little roast chestnut again. Oh well it gives us something to talk about again.

[primer]

Let me get this straight, so, what you're saying is that, nobody is powerful, but, in the end of the day, after ranting like 5 year olds, the teams will sign an agreement with the powerless commercial rights owners.

FOTA could easily be the single most powerful entity in this standoff provided the top teams can stay united, and, they can demonstrate that they are prepared to execute a breakway.

Did I get this right?

Don't delude yourself, when it comes to discussing any matter involving FIA, CVC and Bernie your IQ mysteriously drops by tens of points. About 20% of your thoughts make sense, the rest of the time you are like Flavio Briatore on radio: Yutaw taw and other gibberish.

Edited by primer, 17 December 2010 - 18:43.

[Fortymark]

I was thinking about this a day ago. Why doesn´t an outsider start up a new series that could match F1?
Now it´s an golden opportunity when Formula 1 goes "green" in 2013 with not so exciting rules and engines.

The engines they could use for an old school F1 already exists, either the 2.4 liter V8 or why not the old V10
3.0 format?
Standard chassis and maybe gearbox and brakes etc. Old style looks (early -90 to mid -90 with 2 meter wide cars
and more drag, less downforce

I think they could be a real threat the 2013 style F1.

[Birelman]

FOTA could easily be the single most powerful entity in this standoff provided most of the teams can stay united, and, they can demonstrate that they are prepared to execute a succesful breakway.



Don't delude yourself, when it comes to discussing any matter involving FIA, CVC and Bernie your IQ mysteriously drops by tens of points. About 20% of what you thoughts make sense, the rest of the time you are like Flavio Briatore on radio: Yutaw taw and other gibberish.

And of course you have to resort to insults.... funny, as I never once did anything to sound remotely disrespectful.

Anyway, as my IQ dropped 20%, sadly, now I'm only as smart as you then

So then, after your masterclass in business, I gather, you believe the most powerful entity, will sign with the old fart's ex-corporation FOM, who in turn has little power, because, the least powerful CVC own the commercial rights.

When you think about what you have said, you haven't said anything that means something too different from what I believe. That the teams will eventually sign with FOM, even if you said it by saying a lot of mumbo jumbo trying to show off your knowledge about the Formula 1 business, I said it in a more vulgar way, of course, I'm only 20% as smart as I was earlier, so, it's understandable.

[primer]

I was thinking about this a day ago. Why doesn´t an outsider start up a new series that could match F1?

The initial investment will be very high, irrecoverably high. Forget any positive cash flow for the first five years, perhaps even longer. And for most of the first few seasons the series promoters would have to buy publicity in media.

Now if this hypothetical new series could attract most of the bigger teams (and some drivers) from present day F1, then yes the series promoters' job will become somewhat easier. Any alternative to F1 will have to receive support from existing F1 teams to be viable.

Edited by primer, 17 December 2010 - 18:58.

[Fastcake]

AFAIK the arrangement is: CVC are the commercial rights holder, but they outsource certain tasks to FOM and other Bernie companies because setting up new apparatus to do these jobs would be more expensive. So it is a financial decision to keep Bernie around.

Close but not quite. FOM (strictly speaking it's Formula One Administration) hold the commercial rights, CVC, through a massive pyramid of hiding the cash and tax evasion off-shore companies, own FOM. They don't set up new companies because they can't, they wouldn't have any assets. Bernie's in charge of FOM, and theoretically CVC being principal shareholders could have him remove. I've heard the situation is rather more murky than the standard holding company/subsidiary situation, with Bernie having ownership in the companies between CVC and FOM. There also is little motivation, as he's been running the company for years and has made a considerable amount.

[primer]

Fastcake yeah in between all that there was also Bernie's divorce, and most of his assets were in wifey's name? Don't know how it was all settled, perhaps Slavica decided to take her share and yet let Bernie and CVC operate because disturbing this applecart would hurt her returns, too.

[WhiteBlue]

Fastcake yeah in between all that there was also Bernie's divorce, and most of his assets were in wifey's name? Don't know how it was all settled, perhaps Slavica decided to take her share and yet let Bernie and CVC operate because disturbing this applecart would hurt her returns, too.

The money of the Ecclestones has long been separated from the business of running Formula1. Bernie himself holds only single digit shares in FOM. Those shares were not payed by an investment of money. They were given to him gratis as part of the remuneration for the job.

Source
It's what he (Montezemolo) says every time he goes to Monza every year: "'We need more money". It's all nonsense. They're not going to break away. They've tried it all before. Luca's a lovely guy but he likes to say these things and then he forgets what he is saying.

Lol, we know Bernie. He does the same as you do.

[Nustang70]

I have no idea. But I think the teams can reasonably leverage a higher percentage than they get now, but an actually fair amount will be difficult (most similar organizations get 10-15%). If the $1.75 billion purchase price is true, it would take CVC $87.5 million over 20 years (per year without inflation) to make back their investment. I think the teams will find it difficult to contend for a higher share in light of CVC's need to recoup their investment. We can thank Bernie for this.

[Amphicar]

A little history:

In 2001 the European Commission began an anti-competition investigation into F1 because of concerns that the FIA's relationship with FOM constituted a conflict of interest.In response, the FIA decided to sell the F1 rights to a promoter for 100 years. FOM, under Bernie Ecclestone won the tender and in 2001 paid the FIA $313.7m to use the commercial rights to F1 until 2110. The disposal of the rights for 100 years is how the FIA introduced the "separation of commercial and regulatory activities in motor sport," which the EC demanded.

Subsequently, shares in the F1 Group were sold six times wth Bernie remaining Chief Executive and in 2006 CVC bought the commercial rights for $2.5 bn in a leveraged purchase financed by RBS and Lehman Brothers and the debt was subsequently refinanced several times, raising the debt to nearer $3 bn. Once again, Bernie remained CEO and is paid by CVC to manage the business. According to a report on the Bloomberg Businessweek website in May this year, CVC's F1 business is running at a $495 million loss (CVC F1 losses trimmed), which helps to explain why Bernie drives such hard bargains over Grand Prix contracts and why sentiment and tradition don't mean much to him. It also explains why Bernie, on behalf of CVC plays hardball over money with the F1 teams.

If the teams tried to organise a breakaway series that looked anything like F1 (whatever it was actually called) and the FIA agreed to sanction it, CVC would sue them, the teams, the circuits and anyone else involved for $ billions and undoubtedly seek injunctions to prevent races from happening. Whatever the outcome of the lawsuits (I'm pretty sure CVC would win) it would do our sport no good at all (look at the CART/IRL split) and the only people who would do well out of it would be lawyers.

[WhiteBlue]

Subsequently, shares in the F1 Group were sold six times wth Bernie remaining Chief Executive and in 2006 CVC bought the commercial rights for $2.5 bn in a leveraged purchase financed by RBS and Lehman Brothers and the debt was subsequently refinanced several times, raising the debt to nearer $3 bn. Once again, Bernie remained CEO and is paid by CVC to manage the business. According to a report on the Bloomberg Businessweek website in May this year, CVC's F1 business is running at a $495 million loss (CVC F1 losses trimmed), which helps to explain why Bernie drives such hard bargains over Grand Prix contracts and why sentiment and tradition don't mean much to him. It also explains why Bernie, on behalf of CVC plays hardball over money with the F1 teams.

You left out all the important bits. According to recent valuation the F1group was valued at $6bn. CVC have long recuperated on the investment by the value growth of the company and by taking roughly half a billion $ annually out of the business. The loss is only there due to the fact that the money has been sucked out to cover the 70% profit rate of the CVC fond.

If the teams tried to organise a breakaway series that looked anything like F1 (whatever it was actually called) and the FIA agreed to sanction it, CVC would sue them, the teams, the circuits and anyone else involved for $ billions and undoubtedly seek injunctions to prevent races from happening. Whatever the outcome of the lawsuits (I'm pretty sure CVC would win) it would do our sport no good at all (look at the CART/IRL split) and the only people who would do well out of it would be lawyers.

The teams have no obligation to contract with the F1 group beyond 2012. So if they decide to break away they can legally do this and CVC's lawyers can do sod all about it. The longer term contracts with exclusivity that could be a problem for a break away series are TV and track contracts that Bernie may have at the time. If any of those companies deal with FOTA there could be law suits. Due to Bernies machinations there are many more F1 capable track on the world that would be delighted to take up the slack and there are many TV companies that would be equally delighted to grab the contract with FOTA. Two years down the road you would see no difference because all promoters and TV stations would have terminated their contracts legally due to failure to deliver the promised product.

[Amphicar]

The teams have no obligation to contract with the F1 group beyond 2012. So if they decide to break away they can legally do this and CVC's lawyers can do sod all about it. The longer term contracts with exclusivity that could be a problem for a break away series are TV and track contracts that Bernie may have at the time. If any of those companies deal with FOTA there could be law suits. Due to Bernies machinations there are many more F1 capable track on the world that would be delighted to take up the slack and there are many TV companies that would be equally delighted to grab the contract with FOTA. Two years down the road you would see no difference because all promoters and TV stations would have terminated their contracts legally due to failure to deliver the promised product.

FOTA could perhaps organise a breakaway series but the FIA could not sanction it without being sued by CVC. I think many sponsors and suppliers would baulk at being involved in an "outlaw" race series and Bernie (or his successor) would undoubtedly cut special deals. So the likely outcome (in addition to the lawsuits) would be a split, with some teams sticking with the FIA sanctioned F1 series and some going with the breakaway - hence my reference to the CART/IRL split. In my view that would be a disater.

[WhiteBlue]

FOTA could perhaps organise a breakaway series but the FIA could not sanction it without being sued by CVC. I think many sponsors and suppliers would baulk at being involved in an "outlaw" race series and Bernie (or his successor) would undoubtedly cut special deals.

You obviously do not remember the comments that Ross Brawn made at the last occasion of a break away discussion. He said that FOTA can force FiA to administer the series. The FiA claim to be the sole global sanctioning body and they cannot reject an application to sanction a series that claims global reach.

How can FOM sue the FiA for doing something that they have claimed they have the right to do forever? The FiA would simply do what they did the last time. They would take applications from new teams for F1 and fill the grid with whatever turns up. The F1 commission would be circumvented exactly the same way they were circumvented in the last Concord interregnum Jan 2008 - June 2009. FOM would have a 100 year lease that is worth exactly nothing and FOTA would have to come up with a new rule setting power mechanism. That would not be such a difficult thing to do.

This time around FiA and FOTA would probably be in complicity while the FiA would be loyal to FOM on the surface and fulfill all contractual obligations. The FiA has many ways it can manipulate the way things are run. Remember how they suddenly changed the application period at the height of the GPMA war in December 2005. All the teams had to suddenly commit within four month to compete in 2008. This was power politics at its best. If the FiA was in the same boat with FOTA they could simply do the opposite. Open an application period for new teams early on and close the application period for existing teams on December 31 2012. If the FOTA teams don't apply FOM had no time to react in the legal consultation mechanisms because the 2009 - 2012 Concord agreement would have expired with the FiA on paper fulfilling all obligations.

Edited by WhiteBlue, 18 December 2010 - 13:43.

[undersquare]

FOTA could perhaps organise a breakaway series but the FIA could not sanction it without being sued by CVC. I think many sponsors and suppliers would baulk at being involved in an "outlaw" race series and Bernie (or his successor) would undoubtedly cut special deals. So the likely outcome (in addition to the lawsuits) would be a split, with some teams sticking with the FIA sanctioned F1 series and some going with the breakaway - hence my reference to the CART/IRL split. In my view that would be a disater.

Sponsors would love a breakaway. With teams taking all the TV and circuit money, sponsorship would suddenly get a lot cheaper and more secure, because then all the teams would have a basic budget to go racing.

And if the teams leave FOM behind, they won't have a series to offer any deals on. Without the big names, Formula 1 is a house of cards.

[primer]

FOTA could perhaps organise a breakaway series but the FIA could not sanction it

Is Nascar 'sanctioned' by FIA? How many teams and fans in Nascar even know about FIA?

This 'sanctioning' is such formality. FIA own the name/brand F1, this is what makes them powerful. If a series does not want to use one of the FIA brands there is absolutely no need to genuflect towards FIA. Set up your own internal sporting regulator and go to business.

[WhiteBlue]

Is Nascar 'sanctioned' by FIA? How many teams and fans in Nascar even know about FIA? This 'sanctioning' is such formality. FIA own the name/brand F1, this is what makes them powerful. If a series does not want to use one of the FIA brands there is absolutely no need to genuflect towards FIA. Set up your own internal sporting regulator and go to business.

This is another option that would be open to FOTA. My reasoning was based on the assumption that FiA and FOTA were pitched against FOM in the same game and they would secretly conspire to get rid of FOM while the FiA would pay lip service to their commercial deal with FOM. The duty to sanction competing series could be the get free card that Todt would be using for his assumed secrete collusion with FOTA.

[AdamM]

Can we enjoy Christmas first, before the April Fool jokes start?

Breakaway series my a**e.

[midgrid]

I was thinking about this a day ago. Why doesn´t an outsider start up a new series that could match F1?
Now it´s an golden opportunity when Formula 1 goes "green" in 2013 with not so exciting rules and engines.

The engines they could use for an old school F1 already exists, either the 2.4 liter V8 or why not the old V10
3.0 format?
Standard chassis and maybe gearbox and brakes etc. Old style looks (early -90 to mid -90 with 2 meter wide cars
and more drag, less downforce

I think they could be a real threat the 2013 style F1.

I don't think Superleague Formula will be a threat to F1 in 2013.

[cheapracer]

Ferrari have run a 1.5 litre V6 turbo engine previously in the 80's.

Theres a difference, those days it was clearly a full out racing engine and now it's a promotional tool for mass manufacturers of smaller family sedans and hatches - there is no benefit to Ferrari for marketing.

It would go down as Ferrari beating Mum's Toyota Corolla - wow, like thats not expected whereas Toyota can say how their engine, the "same thats in Mum's Corolla" mixes it with Ferrari's.

It's going to be interesting to see what Ferrari actually do.

[WhiteBlue]

It's going to be interesting to see what Ferrari actually do.

My prediction is they will build a 1.6L L4 turbo engine! The alternative is siding with Bernie against the rest of FOTA again and and speculating that they will get away with that. I don't think they will be able to pull that stunt again.

[simplyfast]

And you have to be dumb not to prepare for one. The more credible the threat the more money they will extract. I think they will take this pretty far if Bernie tries to toughen it out.

lol you cant even remember back less than a year.
The teams are not able to organise any series when it comes to racing they are all too self centred.
Ferrari gave pie in the sky ideas that most reasonable people now understand would never have got off the ground.
However there are always gullible people who think what never could of, might of.
You really ought to try to think if the teams were to leave the F1 championship how are they going to make all the hundreds of millions they now get from the FIA themselves.
Don't forget no free travel no TV rights not even a track to race on
But please keep on dreaming most know it never ever would work including most of the teams.