378 replies to this topic

[steveninthematrix]

ok, the rear wings are adjustable IF you're within 1 second....

so, a few questions come up..

1 - how will the driver following know he is within 1 second and not 1.1 seconds? is there a light on the steering wheel, how is he notified he can press the button and adjust the angle of the rear wing?

2 - the driver has now adjusted the rear wing and starts to overtake, when he is passed (0.01 seconds ahead), does the rear wing automatically go back , i.e. when does the rear wing assume its original position?

3 - based on question #2, when can the driver being passed, adjust his rear wing, the moment the other car is JUST passed (side by side but a nose ahead), or can that driver only press his button once the other driver's rear wheels are ahead of his front wheels??

4 - the driver passing, surely wants his rear wing back to normal, when he enters the corner, is this determined by the driver who is pressing this button, or not?

----

I've now heard the rear wings will only be able to adjust on one designated straight per track, is this true? some tracks do have two decent straights and surely the driver should be allowed to use it any time, (he's within 1 second)?

--

personally, i think it a crap rule, but so be it.

Regards
Steve

[undersquare]

I read somewhere they plan to keep fiddling with the rule, learning as they go along.

Fans' reaction is going to be so negative, I wouldn't be surprised if they give it up after a race or two, it's so fake.

[Fastcake]

steveninthematrix, on Jan 13 2011, 17:24, said:

ok, the rear wings are adjustable IF you're within 1 second....

so, a few questions come up..

1 - how will the driver following know he is within 1 second and not 1.1 seconds? is there a light on the steering wheel, how is he notified he can press the button and adjust the angle of the rear wing?
They will be notified, by a cockpit light I believe, after passing the timing loop and being within 1 second.

2 - the driver has now adjusted the rear wing and starts to overtake, when he is passed (0.01 seconds ahead), does the rear wing automatically go back , i.e. when does the rear wing assume its original position?
It goes back when the driver first brakes after activating the device.

3 - based on question #2, when can the driver being passed, adjust his rear wing, the moment the other car is JUST passed (side by side but a nose ahead), or can that driver only press his button once the other driver's rear wheels are ahead of his front wheels??
I don't believe the following driver is allowed to, the usage is restricted to a certain area.

4 - the driver passing, surely wants his rear wing back to normal, when he enters the corner, is this determined by the driver who is pressing this button, or not?
See number two.
----

I've now heard the rear wings will only be able to adjust on one designated straight per track, is this true? some tracks do have two decent straights and surely the driver should be allowed to use it any time, (he's within 1 second)?
Yes that's true.

--

personally, i think it a crap rule, but so be it.
Yes, yes it is.
Regards
Steve

Hope I helped

[JPW]

From Formula 1.com

Adjustable rear wings

Under new moveable bodywork regulations, drivers of suitably equipped cars can adjust the rear wing from the cockpit, altering its angle of incidence through a set range. (The moveable front wing, used in 2010, has been dropped.) The system’s availability is electronically governed it can be used at any time in practice and qualifying, but during the race can only be activated when a driver is less than one second behind another car at pre-determined points on the track. The system is then deactivated once the driver brakes. In combination with KERS, it is designed to boost overtaking. Also like KERS, it isn't compulsory.

Also it's useful to check the FIA technical regulations (article 3.18):

3.18.2 The adjustable bodywork may be activated by the driver at any time prior to the start of the race and, for the sole purpose of improving overtaking opportunities during the race, after the driver has completed aminimum of two laps after the race start or following a safety car period.
The driver may only activate the adjustable bodywork in the race when he has been notified via the control electronics (see Article 8.2) that it is enabled. It will only be enabled if the driver is less than one second behind another at any of the pre-determined positions around each circuit.
The system will be disabled by the control electronics the first time the driver uses the brakes after he has activated the system.
The FIA may, after consulting all competitors, adjust the above time proximity in order to ensure the stated purpose of the adjustable bodywork is met.

Personally I'd say lets wait and see and not condemn 2 months before the first race but hey I'm an optimist.

[bigginge]

There are a number of timing loops around the track - when the car passes one it receives notification that the rear wing is available for use (if within 1s of the car in front) and the driver is notified by a light on the display/steering wheel. The driver then has a button to press to enable the wing, and it remains enabled until he disables it, brakes, or passes a loop that disables it. A driver that had been overtaken would not be able to use his wing until he passes an enabling loop. I guess the location and number of loops varies from circuit to circuit - Not sure if there are going to be restrictions on where in a lap it can be used though?

The wing can be used freely in practice and qualifying.

[steveninthematrix]

it only gets worse....

so basically, the top engineers have conceded they cant get these cars to overtake, so, they got this

[senna da silva]

steveninthematrix, on Jan 13 2011, 20:03, said:

it only gets worse....

so basically, the top engineers have conceded they cant get these cars to overtake, so, they got this

Correct. When the actual solution was as easy as lifting the RPM limit.

[Scotracer]

senna da silva, on Jan 13 2011, 20:08, said:

Correct. When the actual solution was as easy as lifting the RPM limit.

To the detriment of engine life and cost...

[Andy865]

senna da silva, on Jan 13 2011, 20:08, said:

Correct. When the actual solution was as easy as lifting the RPM limit.

But then they would just run in higher rev bands all the time. they'd still hit the limiter. Which is exactly why the same problem was around with 20K revs in 2006.

[cas422]

Since the leading car is basically an artificial sitting duck, I predict a lot of ill concieved bonzai passing moves on the last lap of the race …

[Andrew Hope]

Scotracer, on Jan 13 2011, 16:37, said:

To the detriment of engine life and cost...

Some would say reliability breeds boredom..

[uffen]

When they put it in the technical regulations, that's one thing.
When they put its use in the sporting regulations, that's another and that's crap.

[Bloggsworth]

So, all the drivers will be going down the straights behind another car looking at their steering wheels waiting for a light to come on, then they press their button and run into the car in front.

Then, as soon as the car behind gets ahead of the notional "behind" point on the overtaking car, he presses his button and also goes faster.

But..... What about the rev limit? To go faster they will have to increase revs, which must mean that all cars with the movable bodywork will have to run longer top gears to allow for the wing incidence reduction, so - it might then make sense to not have the adjustable wing and run a shorter top gear as it will be quicker everywhere all the time, not just on odd occasions.

[FNG]

I'm still rather confused by this moronic rule. So the car in front can't activate it's wing only the car behind that is trying to pass. So in the case of three cars sitting 1,2 and 3 spread by less than a second between 1 and 2 and 2 and 3, only the car in thrid place is allowed to use it's wing? From what I understand the 2nd place car would not be allowed to use it's wing to pass the car in first becuase he is in front of the 3rd place car trying to pass him. This makes my head hurt.

It's one thing to introudce the rule of a moveable rear wing by why on earth all the silly rules. Just let them use it whenever and however much they want.

[Bloggsworth]

steveninthematrix, on Jan 13 2011, 20:03, said:

it only gets worse....

so basically, the top engineers have conceded they cant get these cars to overtake, so, they got this

No they haven't, they've just made the choice between wing area and sponsorship and ease of overtaking. Remove the front wing, re-introduce ferrous brake discs and there will be more overtaking. The longer the braking area the more the skilled driver would be able to use that skill to overtake. With no front wings there is no turbulence over the front wing to reduce front downforce, so the cars can run closer together - But you can place millions of dollars of advertising on the front wings and end-plates, so it won't happen. They could do the brake thing, as carbon brakes have no relevance to normal road cars.

[Crafty]

senna da silva, on Jan 13 2011, 20:08, said:

Correct. When the actual solution was as easy as lifting the RPM limit.

How will raising rev limits help ?
Two cars struggling to overtake at 20k RPM is no different to them struggling to do the same at 18k RPM.

Unless you mean a similar sort "push to pass" system where the following car gets an extra 1000RPM when they push the button, in which case its no better than the wing idea.

[OwenC93]

Biggest problem with the rear wing is that they can only use it in one small space per lap. So we will see drivers just cruising behind the car infront to get within 1 second, and then just drive past them on the same straight every time they need to overtake.

So there won't be any action anywhere else on track. And the only overtakes we will see will be pretty crap.


It's a shame because with degrading tyres and KERS with less dirty air it sounded like a great season, but having 1 overtaking spot per lap ruins it for me

[Ali_G]

Scotracer, on Jan 13 2011, 20:37, said:

To the detriment of engine life and cost...

Very easy way around the RPM limit.

Dictate that the teams can only use 6 gears in qualifying.

As 7th won't be allowed in qual, teams will gear it for being in the slipstream during a race. Hence 7th will be the overtaking gear only to be used in a slipstream.

Problem solved.

[Ali_G]

Crafty, on Jan 13 2011, 21:19, said:

How will raising rev limits help ?
Two cars struggling to overtake at 20k RPM is no different to them struggling to do the same at 18k RPM.

Unless you mean a similar sort "push to pass" system where the following car gets an extra 1000RPM when they push the button, in which case its no better than the wing idea.

It's a gear issue.

Previously when the old cars picked up a slipstream, the cars were allowed to overrev when in the slipstream.

They can't do so now, hence negating how useful the slipstream is.

Once the present cars hit the limiter, they simply cannot go any faster as the engine revs are limited and the gearing is fixed.

What I've said in my last post is a way around the problem.

[minardifans]

Surely there is a safety issue of having a driver following another driver within a second or so, but with his eyes glued to a light on the wheel waiting for it to 'go green' so he can use his rear wing. Whilst he's concentrating on that light, the driver in front could brake or have an accident or anything. Sounds very dangerous to me.

Edited by minardifans, 13 January 2011 - 22:46.

[Ali_G]

Bloggsworth, on Jan 13 2011, 21:18, said:

No they haven't, they've just made the choice between wing area and sponsorship and ease of overtaking. Remove the front wing, re-introduce ferrous brake discs and there will be more overtaking. The longer the braking area the more the skilled driver would be able to use that skill to overtake. With no front wings there is no turbulence over the front wing to reduce front downforce, so the cars can run closer together - But you can place millions of dollars of advertising on the front wings and end-plates, so it won't happen. They could do the brake thing, as carbon brakes have no relevance to normal road cars.

Banning carbons disks won't lengthen braking distances, if at all.

Ultimate braking is a factor of, tyre grip, weight of car and car drag.

Alex Zanardi ran with steel disks at Spa in 1999 and it basically made no difference to his driving.

Carbon disks give you advantage in other areas. They are much lighter than steel resulting in much less unsprung weight. Carbon also gives you better heat characteristics which means they require less cooling.

Edited by Ali_G, 13 January 2011 - 22:48.

[r4mses]

andrew., on Jan 13 2011, 21:53, said:

Some would say reliability breeds boredom..

Yep. watched (parts of) a few older races recently - 90s, early 00s - and I kinda loved to see some huge engine blow ups from time to time. Like RSCs in Japan 1998. F1 should be right a the limit, and ppl have to see it, imo.

[Willow Rosenberg]

Ali_G, on Jan 13 2011, 22:40, said:

Very easy way around the RPM limit.

Dictate that the teams can only use 6 gears in qualifying.

As 7th won't be allowed in qual, teams will gear it for being in the slipstream during a race. Hence 7th will be the overtaking gear only to be used in a slipstream.

Problem solved.

The easy way to solve problems caused by a stupid rule is to introduce another stupid rule.

[Ali_G]

Willow Rosenberg, on Jan 13 2011, 23:05, said:

The easy way to solve problems caused by a stupid rule is to introduce another stupid rule.

I agree with you in that I don't agree with the rev limiter. It was put in place, no as much to save engines but to level up the playing field due to the engine freeze. No engine would have a higher rev advantage over the other.

At this stage, with the new engine formula coming in 2013, it would be insane to reppen engine development. It would raise costs again and would in the end, most likely hit Cosworth and the smaller teams who would have this extra cost passed onto them.

[BillBald]

Ali_G, on Jan 13 2011, 22:40, said:

Very easy way around the RPM limit.

Dictate that the teams can only use 6 gears in qualifying.

As 7th won't be allowed in qual, teams will gear it for being in the slipstream during a race. Hence 7th will be the overtaking gear only to be used in a slipstream.

Problem solved.

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the only way to really make this wing work, is to reserve 7th gear for overtaking and effectively run with a 6-speed gearbox for the rest of the time. The problem with that strategy, is that you will have a slower car for most of the race.

I think the fastest cars will run a 7th gear which is just slightly higher than in 2010, so they will get hardly any advantage from the adjustable wing, and overtaking will not be much easier than it has been for the last few years.

Your idea of forcing teams to use 7th just for overtaking seems impractical, since some teams may choose not to implement the adjustable wing.

[Ali_G]

BillBald, on Jan 13 2011, 23:24, said:

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the only way to really make this wing work, is to reserve 7th gear for overtaking and effectively run with a 6-speed gearbox for the rest of the time. The problem with that strategy, is that you will have a slower car for most of the race.

I think the fastest cars will run a 7th gear which is just slightly higher than in 2010, so they will get hardly any advantage from the adjustable wing, and overtaking will not be much easier than it has been for the last few years.

Your idea of forcing teams to use 7th just for overtaking seems impractical, since some teams may choose not to implement the adjustable wing.

It wouldn't just be for the adjustable wing.

The 7th gear would be optimised for top speed when the car is expieriencing less drag by being in another cars slipstream.

Forcing the teams to run with 6 gears (for most of the race) I doubt would bring the lap time's down that greatly.

[BillBald]

Ali_G, on Jan 13 2011, 23:28, said:

Forcing the teams to run with 6 gears (for most of the race) I doubt would bring the lap time's down that greatly.

I'm not sure how much difference there would be to laptimes, but a rule that you could only use 6 gears (except when overtaking) would clearly be a handicap to any car which wasn't fitted with the adjustable wing, especially if it also didn't have KERS.

Since those items are optional, I don't see how you could enforce such a rule.

[Ali_G]

BillBald, on Jan 14 2011, 00:16, said:

I'm not sure how much difference there would be to laptimes, but a rule that you could only use 6 gears (except when overtaking) would clearly be a handicap to any car which wasn't fitted with the adjustable wing, especially if it also didn't have KERS.

Since those items are optional, I don't see how you could enforce such a rule.

It shouldn't make any difference. The extra 7th gear is nothing more than a gear optimised for being in a slipstream. It's the same as having an engine which can overrev.

If there was no revlimiter, would you consider the engine overrevving to be an unfair advantage to those with the adjustable rear wing ?

[BillBald]

Ali_G, on Jan 14 2011, 00:22, said:

It shouldn't make any difference. The extra 7th gear is nothing more than a gear optimised for being in a slipstream. It's the same as having an engine which can overrev.

That would be true if the adjustable wing and KERS did not exist. But they do, and teams which use them will get a much greater advantage from having an 'overtaking' 7th gear.

So if your rule is brought in, every team will be forced to implement these devices.

[Ali_G]

BillBald, on Jan 14 2011, 00:30, said:

That would be true if the adjustable wing and KERS did not exist. But they do, and teams which use them will get a much greater advantage from having an 'overtaking' 7th gear.

So if your rule is brought in, every team will be forced to implement these devices.

It would give teams with the rear wing a bit more of an advantage.

It shouldn't with KERS though as the gearing will have already be optimised with KERS usage in mind.

[senna da silva]

Scotracer, on Jan 13 2011, 20:37, said:

To the detriment of engine life and cost...

We already have a reliability rule in the number of engines available.

[Dalton007]

Say they are on the designated straight and the 2nd car is able to use its flap, can the 1st car use its KERS?

Edited by Dalton007, 14 January 2011 - 08:43.

[MadYarpen]

Dalton007, on Jan 14 2011, 09:11, said:

Say they are on the designated straight and the 2nd car is able to use his flap, can the 1st car use its KERS?

kers use is not determined, so yes.

[Don_Humpador]

Couldn't the driver in front just use KERS whenever the guy behind is 1s behind him?

The driver in front knows the designated areas, so he'll know exactly when to use KERS to protect himself from the rear wing boost.

Leading to no overtaking!

[undersquare]

So at one particular point on each track, decided at the start of the weekend presumably, or maybe tweaked during FP, a car following within 1 second at the time can adjust its rear wing. Paddy mentioned a point 300m from the end of the straight as an example.

Then when they brake it goes back to normal. Very quickly, you have to hope! Since the whole of braking is only about 2 seconds. And the airflow has to change not just the wing surface.

Well best case is it works and is merely FAKE RACING.

Worst case is the car gets out of control when braking starts with the aero completely out of balance. Actually that would be quite good, assuming the first few drivers survive the demonstration, because then they'd have to take the whole silly business off.

[Ali_G]

Don_Humpador, on Jan 14 2011, 09:27, said:

Couldn't the driver in front just use KERS whenever the guy behind is 1s behind him?

The driver in front knows the designated areas, so he'll know exactly when to use KERS to protect himself from the rear wing boost.

Leading to no overtaking!

And whats to stop the following driver from using KERS also to negate the lead driver using it ?

Edited by Ali_G, 14 January 2011 - 10:58.

[Scotracer]

senna da silva, on Jan 14 2011, 01:59, said:

We already have a reliability rule in the number of engines available.

Of course we do but if you allow the engines to rev higher to attempt over-takes you will mean that most cars will end up exceeding the maximum number of engines/season rule.

[BRK]

guyORS, on Jan 13 2011, 22:19, said:

I still haven't gotten an answer to this anywhere:

3 cars within a second of each other, Nr 2 and 3 ready to overtake, what happens when the second guy flattens his wing when Nr3 is about to overtake?

You'd have a very pissed 2nd guy yelling on the car-to-pit when he suddenly finds his RW won't budge and a very relieved No.1 that realizes the two jokers behind him are going to keep switching places until one runs it wide.

[Ali_G]

Scotracer, on Jan 14 2011, 10:41, said:

Of course we do but if you allow the engines to rev higher to attempt over-takes you will mean that most cars will end up exceeding the maximum number of engines/season rule.

The rev limit was not put in for reliability.

It was put in due to the engine freeze. Without it, manufactuers with engines that didn't rev as high as competitors would have been fairly pissed off that they had no way in catching up. It also has the effect of equalising power (some bit) accross the grid.

[Scotracer]

Ali_G, on Jan 14 2011, 10:55, said:

The rev limit was not put in for reliability.

It was put in due to the engine freeze. Without it, manufactuers with engines that didn't rev as high as competitors would have been fairly pissed off that they had no way in catching up. It also has the effect of equalising power (some bit) accross the grid.

The 18,000rpm limit, down from 19,000rpm was for reliability reasons as it's always the last few revs that kill an engine.

[undersquare]

Scotracer, on Jan 14 2011, 11:00, said:

The 18,000rpm limit, down from 19,000rpm was for reliability reasons as it's always the last few revs that kill an engine.

IIRC it was put in so they could go from 2 to to 4 races per engine without a redesign, so really it's both reliability and freeze in that sense.

Anyway the revs issue is presumably not different from kers in 09 or F-duct last year, which we didn't hear a peep about, so it should all be OK on that front.

If I were the FIA/FOT/FOM I'd be quite nervous about fans' reaction in Bahrain though...

[senna da silva]

Scotracer, on Jan 14 2011, 11:41, said:

Of course we do but if you allow the engines to rev higher to attempt over-takes you will mean that most cars will end up exceeding the maximum number of engines/season rule.

And they will be penalised.

[Scotracer]

senna da silva, on Jan 14 2011, 12:42, said:

And they will be penalised.

Think of the implications of that for a second.

[BillBald]

guyORS, on Jan 13 2011, 21:19, said:

I still haven't gotten an answer to this anywhere:

3 cars within a second of each other, Nr 2 and 3 ready to overtake, what happens when the second guy flattens his wing when Nr3 is about to overtake?

My understanding is that cars 2 and 3 would both be able to flatten their wing, because they are both within a second of the car in front.

[ponq]

Can this option be activated from the grid?

From the "within one second"-rule I'd say yes. And from the "it can be used anywhere before the start of the race"-rule too (unless the warm up lap counts as start of the race).

[secessionman]

ponq, on Jan 14 2011, 12:53, said:

Can this option be activated from the grid?

From the "within one second"-rule I'd say yes. And from the "it can be used anywhere before the start of the race"-rule too (unless the warm up lap counts as start of the race).

You can't activate it within the first two laps of the race.

What about lapped traffic? If, say, a lapped car stays within 1 second on the subsequent lap, can he then adjust his wing to unlap himself?

[Don_Humpador]

ponq, on Jan 14 2011, 12:53, said:

Can this option be activated from the grid?

From the "within one second"-rule I'd say yes. And from the "it can be used anywhere before the start of the race"-rule too (unless the warm up lap counts as start of the race).

It can only be used at certain locations, but you'd have to guess that because most races start on a decent length straight, that those straights would become designated areas, so perhaps you could use it at the start. Not sure.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it can be used anywhere before the start of the race", what would be the point of that?


EDIT : Just seen the above post. Thanks secessionman.

Edited by Don_Humpador, 14 January 2011 - 12:56.

[MadYarpen]

Don_Humpador, on Jan 14 2011, 13:56, said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "it can be used anywhere before the start of the race", what would be the point of that?

In qualy FP to set the car up. I'm not sure about qualy

Edited by MadYarpen, 14 January 2011 - 12:59.

[V8 Fireworks]

Bloggsworth, on Jan 13 2011, 21:11, said:

But..... What about the rev limit? To go faster they will have to increase revs, which must mean that all cars with the movable bodywork will have to run longer top gears to allow for the wing incidence reduction, so - it might then make sense to not have the adjustable wing and run a shorter top gear as it will be quicker everywhere all the time, not just on odd occasions.

The rear wing CAN be used in qualifying, so they should all be geared to use it...

Unless Red Bull is particularly confident of a 1.5 s qualifying advantage (and they don't want to risk Webbo to use this rear wing to pass golden Vettel) then they might chance using short gears for better race pace - but for most teams (paradoxially) qualifying being king will force them to make use of the overtaking rear wing.

[V8 Fireworks]

minardifans, on Jan 13 2011, 22:45, said:

Surely there is a safety issue of having a driver following another driver within a second or so, but with his eyes glued to a light on the wheel waiting for it to 'go green' so he can use his rear wing. Whilst he's concentrating on that light, the driver in front could brake or have an accident or anything. Sounds very dangerous to me.

And this is different from F-duct or KERS or changing gears (!) how?

Surely no different to using the lights to change gears.