24317 replies to this topic

[Lazy]

This implies that the driver's limit was higher than the car's limit? At least for F1, I would rather it be about the bravery of the driver - the ones that go as close to, and sometimes on or even over step, the car's limit in order to be competitive in a car that wasn't the best. Or to beat their team mate.

In a car that's designed to last for a 2hr race there is always going to be a balance between pace and reliability. The drivers job is to be as close to that limit as possible. My suggestion is that Jenson is a little below that limit and Lewis is a little above it. I think getting closer to that limit would pay off for both of them.

[Lazy]

Not so sure about the latter point.

Lewis possibly lost out on second place and then was demoted to a net 5th i think it was after the first stint thanks to being behind his teammate. His brand new set of softs were only used for 10 laps in the second stint.

And hey, you didn't answer any of my questions!

I did, in italics below your questions

[trogggy]

In a car that's designed to last for a 2hr race there is always going to be a balance between pace and reliability. The drivers job is to be as close to that limit as possible. My suggestion is that Jenson is a little below that limit and Lewis is a little above it. I think getting closer to that limit would pay off for both of them.

I don't believe there's any truth at all in that these days.
'Don't go too fast Lewis'? No.

[robefc]

I did, in italics below your questions

Doh!

[Lazy]

I don't believe there's any truth at all in that these days.
'Don't go too fast Lewis'? No.

Ofc there is. Everything wears in a car, gearboxes, engines, brake pads/discs etc. More than necessary brake pad or disc is unnecessary unsprung weight. This is true of a lot of the car

"The best racing car is that one, that will collapse after the finish line," Colin Chapman

[ArtShelley]

You cannot drive a car over the limit.

Of course you can. It won't be very fast, but you can drive a car over its limit. The best drivers try to drive right on that edge, but of course they will sometimes overstep.

[P123]

Hamilton should have assumed that Webber would defend that corner to the max and made allowances. Instead Hamilton slams the door on Webber but admits to having lost track of where Webber was.

Slamming the door that hard without knowing exactly where the other guy is a mistake that you can expect to pay a heavy price for!


LH: "I thought I was enough past him, I couldn't see him and turned in and tried to leave enough room on the inside and the next thing I know I got hit."


http://uk.eurosport....ent-racing.html

Nobody slammed the door. In fact the Hamilton quote you use to support you point disproves your assertion. If you cut down on such delusional rhetoric you may be taken seriously. Until then you're in the same bin as those who believe McLaren favour Button over Hamilton.

[ArtShelley]

It was all about Hamilton taking unnecessary risks, just follow he discussion back a couple of pages.

What is necessary and what is unnecessary? If the driver is successful, we call it necessary; if unsuccessful it's unnecessary?

Lewis got into a WDC challenging position, in contention up to the very last race, simply because he took great risks throughout the season most of which worked out for him. Jenson on the other hand didn't take those risks and he was ruled out of the season earlier on.

Coming back to necessary and unnecessary risks. Singapore was an absolute necessary risk. Mark was leading the championship, Lewis was fighting for it, only a few races to - Lewis had to try and beat Mark to contain the gap and that was his only chance, to take advantage of the opportunity presented by the safety car period. That's how it was at that point in time. Monza, the race before, was an unnecessary risk - reasonable to define as such by the probability that Lewis would have had the opportunity to pass Felipe later on with a lower risk.

It's interesting no? - that Lewis, with all his so-called unnecessary risks, has always beaten every single one of his team mates throughout his career. For all the mistakes you perceive he is making, he is still doing better than all those sat in the same car on the other side of the same garage, some of those team mates being WDC's themselves and many others (teammates from lower series) being current F1 drivers. Spin it any way you want, but those are the facts.

[ArtShelley]

Ofc there is. Everything wears in a car, gearboxes, engines, brake pads/discs etc. More than necessary brake pad or disc is unnecessary unsprung weight. This is true of a lot of the car

"The best racing car is that one, that will collapse after the finish line," Colin Chapman

Yes, but the driver shouldn't have to take it easy routinely. Chapman's above statement implies it is still designed in a way to be driven as fast as possible, collapsing upon crossing the finish line.

I also agree with Troggy that modern F1 cars are designed, or the good ones are, to take the punishment dealt out. The modern transmissions, rev limiters etc also take out the punishment factor that drivers of old used to give their cars.

[pinkypants]

It was all about Hamilton taking unnecessary risks, just follow he discussion back a couple of pages.

But I don't see how this is relevant to 2011? Hamilton, in my view, hasn't taken any unnecessary risks v. Button to really warrant this discussion.

I'm in the Senna camp - when you don't go for a gap, from a purist racer point of view, you're not a racer anymore. Whether you think that Hamilton complete the overtaking move properly or goes for non existant gaps, that's up for discussion in the Hamilton thread. From the first three races of this year, I haven't seen Hamilton make overtaking mistakes.

Whether that approach still rewards you with WDCs at the end of the year is debatable.

But again, coming back on topic, looking at Jenson v. Lewis last year, it appeared that Lewis's approach is the one to take (looking at the final points standings). But I think the 2011 season has seen Jenson and Lewis evaluate both of their approaches and recognise that there are scenario's in which one approach may be appropriate than the other. As the season goes on it will be interesting to see how successful they are in managing their tyres, communicating with their engineering team, making their own decisions and accepting the teams decisions when over ruled etc. It's all pretty fascinating, but often the most interesting and intricate details of each drivers development is kept behind closed doors. So far, I believe it has been 2-1 to Lewis, let's see how the rest of the year pans out.

Edited by pinkypants, 25 April 2011 - 16:49.

[bauss]

My suggestion is that Jenson is a little below that limit and Lewis is a little above it.

Bleh...all this spin just to make it like they are both two sides of the same thing. Ofcourse there is truth to the statement that Lewis is more prone to over the limit than Jenson...Jenson is one of the most conservative drivers outthere...but the statement above is just a disingenuous simplification...what we've seen last year and what we are seeing this year so far is that Lewis while prone to overstepping the limit e.g. Malaysia 11, Monza 2010 has proven to be overall closer to the limit than Jenson hence outperforming him most of the time...in stretches very consistently. No play on words or spin will change that.
Jenson is a very good driver no doubt, but so far Lewis has proven to be simply superior...it may not be huge, but it is undeniable...No one with any hint of balance will look at their record and performance over the 22 races so far and conclude "one is over the limit, one is under the limit" or any such rhetoric as to prove they are equals with nothing between them.

That just aint true... no need to sugarcoat or beat around the bush....perhaps Jenson will change it this year eh...

Edited by bauss, 25 April 2011 - 17:24.

[lewymp4]

I am convinced that Jenson would have put less stress on that wheel rim and lasted one more lap out of 60 odd. That's the whole point
of my argument - yes lewis has more ultimate pace but he makes much more mistakes and is harder on his car than Jenson.

Do you think Heikki Kovalainen's driving style may have caused him to also have rim failure in 2008 at Barcelona, similar to what Lewis suffered at the same track in 2010. Heikki would hardly be considered to be a hard charger, and place extra stress on his car.

[trogggy]

Ofc there is. Everything wears in a car, gearboxes, engines, brake pads/discs etc. More than necessary brake pad or disc is unnecessary unsprung weight. This is true of a lot of the car

"The best racing car is that one, that will collapse after the finish line," Colin Chapman

Post something, anything, that supports your view and is relevant to today. If it's true then someone's pointed it out in the last couple of seasons.

[Lazy]

Post something, anything, that supports your view and is relevant to today. If it's true then someone's pointed it out in the last couple of seasons.

http://www.formula1....005/4/2868.html

“The severe usage of the kerbs at the chicanes also makes reliability a key priority: if the car ‘lands' while still at full or even partial throttle, the shock loads in the transmission can cause failures of the driveshafts or the gear ratios themselves. Equally, we pay particular attention to the underside of the car which takes severe impacts on the kerbs: this can break bodywork stays, or damage parts such as the front wing end plates and the front legality tray which are mounted low on the car. We will check these regularly when the car returns to the garage.

http://www.f1network...s107/st5011.htm

But kerb-riding is risky. In the old days, sharp kerbstones always threatened to cut or damage car tyres. They have since been flattened, but drivers still have cause to fear them because they can damage the undercarriage of a Formula One car. The tiniest deformation is enough to destroy the car's aerodynamics - and it can become uncontrollable

http://www.grandprix...ns/ns20819.html

"The kerbs are really high," said Sebastien Bourdais. "They had kerbs like that the first year we went to Monterrey in Champ Cars in 2003 and Lola was smiling all the way to the bank because chassis were getting broken all the time. This is not good for Formula 1 because the material we have here is supposed to be used in China and Japan and if we wreck too many cars that is going to be a big problem."

Bourdais's opinion was shared by Felipe Massa, who described the kerbs as "little tortoises". The Brazilian said that if a driver makes a mistake "you wreck the car". Mark Webber said that he was concerned about the kerbs and intends to have a chat with FIA Race Director Charlie Whiting about the situation while Fernando Alonso has joined the debate, saying that the solution is not the best possible.


This is just kerbs, interesting the 1st one about gearboxes I thought.

When I have more time I'll dig some up in other areas of the car but tbh I'm surprised to have to explain this obvious stuff, it is, has been and will be always a part of racing.

[Lazy]

Bleh...all this spin just to make it like they are both two sides of the same thing. Ofcourse there is truth to the statement that Lewis is more prone to over the limit than Jenson...Jenson is one of the most conservative drivers outthere...but the statement above is just a disingenuous simplification...what we've seen last year and what we are seeing this year so far is that Lewis while prone to overstepping the limit e.g. Malaysia 11, Monza 2010 has proven to be overall closer to the limit than Jenson hence outperforming him most of the time...in stretches very consistently. No play on words or spin will change that.
Jenson is a very good driver no doubt, but so far Lewis has proven to be simply superior...it may not be huge, but it is undeniable...No one with any hint of balance will look at their record and performance over the 22 races so far and conclude "one is over the limit, one is under the limit" or any such rhetoric as to prove they are equals with nothing between them.

That just aint true... no need to sugarcoat or beat around the bush....perhaps Jenson will change it this year eh...

Sigh. I have said many times that Lewis is the overall better driver. If it makes you happy Lewis is less over the line than Jenson is under it, but the principle is true. Ok? Happy?

[hotstickyslick]

Do you think Heikki Kovalainen's driving style may have caused him to also have rim failure in 2008 at Barcelona, similar to what Lewis suffered at the same track in 2010. Heikki would hardly be considered to be a hard charger, and place extra stress on his car.

Kovalainen's bane while at McLaren actually happened to be tyre wear - that said I'm sure it had nothing to do with the rim failure he had.


One has to look at Prost and Senna in '88. Guess which driver retired more due to car failure?

[trogggy]

When I have more time I'll dig some up in other areas of the car but tbh I'm surprised to have to explain this obvious stuff, it is, has been and will be always a part of racing.

That banging a car over kerbs can damage it is fairly self-evident.
That isn't what you were talking about before though, is it?

Arent you the one complaining about the nasty man being rude to you over in the LH thread btw?

[Lazy]

That banging a car over kerbs can damage it is fairly self-evident.
That isn't what you were talking about before though, is it?

Arent you the one complaining about the nasty man being rude to you over in the LH thread btw?

Certainly it's what I'm talking about, especially the 1st quote about drive train and gearbox damage.

[Lazy]

That banging a car over kerbs can damage it is fairly self-evident.
That isn't what you were talking about before though, is it?

Arent you the one complaining about the nasty man being rude to you over in the LH thread btw?

If you're still not convinced I'll find some stuff on brake pads/discs later.

[trogggy]

If you're still not convinced I'll find some stuff on brake pads/discs later.

To be honest I think we're talking about different things. I don't believe Mclaren design a car or want LH or JB to drive at less than 100% unless there's a specific problem. That's all.

[AMG FAN]

Ofc there is. Everything wears in a car, gearboxes, engines, brake pads/discs etc. More than necessary brake pad or disc is unnecessary unsprung weight. This is true of a lot of the car

"The best racing car is that one, that will collapse after the finish line," Colin Chapman

let's not twist Chapman's words to fit our agendas,what he is saying is that the best race car is the reliable one...you know the one that can always make it to the finish line but am sure you already knew that.

[AMG FAN]

Spain was the rim I believe and Hungary the gearbox, the brake issue was Brazil.

As I said, nobody can know whether a particular incident was driver fault or production fault. Equally it cannot be denied that the way you drive the car effects it's reliability, this is a fact of racing. The likelyhood is that some of the of the incidents were production faults and some driver faults. If you consider the gearbox issue for instance, Lewis broke 3 gearboxes to Jensons none, so it's hard to absolve him of all responsibility. Therefore you can guess and say 3 were production and 2 were driver or assign part fault to all (more accurate I believe because it's generally a bit of both ) . If you like I could say 3 totally his fault and 4 no fault but I think that gives a less accurate picture.

I'm not applying fault to any particular incident , apart from Massa

that's not a correct way of looking at things even though in life that's what alot do,in 2008 Heikki had 3 retirements but i don't think that in anyway proves that Heikki is more aggressive than Lewis especially when all we were hearing back then is how Lewis is too aggressive and by the way,let's not forget that this rim failure is not a new story to Mclaren,Heikki had one in 2008 and didn't Lewis have one in 2007? and now in 2010 again...it's fair to say that it's probably more to do with a defective rim than a driving style and imo a driver would really need to be aggressive beyond the limits to wreck a rim.

[ImDDAA]

Lewis definitely drove his car a lot harder in '07 and '08 than he did in '09 and '10. No evidence supports these hilarious theories about Lewis being directly responsible for his mechanical failures where no other driver is but there you go - why look at evidence? It only gets in the way!

[Lazy]

More to the point, how can ANY driver be "so hard" on a semi-automatic sequential gearbox?
The direction this thread has taken is bizarre.

http://www.formula1....005/4/2868.html

“The severe usage of the kerbs at the chicanes also makes reliability a key priority: if the car ‘lands' while still at full or even partial throttle, the shock loads in the transmission can cause failures of the driveshafts or the gear ratios themselves. Equally, we pay particular attention to the underside of the car which takes severe impacts on the kerbs: this can break bodywork stays, or damage parts such as the front wing end plates and the front legality tray which are mounted low on the car. We will check these regularly when the car returns to the garage.
When I have more time I'll dig some up in other areas of the car but tbh I'm surprised to have to explain this obvious stuff, it is, has been and will be always a part of racing.

Like this.

[Con1]

Well it is clear ot see that the only reason that Lewis can beat Jenson is pure luck and quite possibly dastardly cheating. Thats all.

Jenson is so smooth that he has in fact become a living breathing aerodynamic device. his smoothness reaches out and smoothes the airflow into perfect smoothiness that only a smooth smoothable smoother like Jenson can smooth.

Anyone who discounts this theory is just wrong so there

That is the funniest post I've read since I joined here!

And it does capture the level the debate has dropped to here. It now seems to work as follows...

Lewis was once in Japan. A nuclear Power station has exploded there. Obviously down to Lewis' driving style.

Jenson was having a BBQ. The sausages burned. Clearly there was a fault in charcoal manufacturing process.

Lets just stick with how things unfold this year. As I suggested in an earlier post. Or we can just continue with the current level of debate...

[Con1]

Lewis definitely drove his car a lot harder in '07 and '08 than he did in '09 and '10. No evidence supports these hilarious theories about Lewis being directly responsible for his mechanical failures where no other driver is but there you go - why look at evidence? It only gets in the way!

[ImDDAA]

That is the funniest post I've read since I joined here!

And it does capture the level the debate has dropped to here. It now seems to work as follows...

Lewis was once in Japan. A nuclear Power station has exploded there. Obviously down to Lewis' driving style.

Jenson was having a BBQ. The sausages burned. Clearly there was a fault in charcoal manufacturing process.

Lets just stick with how things unfold this year. As I suggested in an earlier post. Or we can just continue with the current level of debate...

I think it's time we Hitlered this interchange and took the discussion to it's final solution.

[lewymp4]

Lewis definitely drove his car a lot harder in '07 and '08 than he did in '09 and '10. No evidence supports these hilarious theories about Lewis being directly responsible for his mechanical failures where no other driver is but there you go - why look at evidence? It only gets in the way!

Jenson's style by putting less stress on the rim, and getting one more lap, now that's.......hilarious.

[Con1]

Jenson's style by putting less stress on the rim, and getting one more lap, now that's.......hilarious.

I think the rim has gone on this debate...

[simplyfast]

Not really fair to compare when Jenson spent so much time in self destructing Hondas (in an era when cars were much less reliable) in midfield getting rammed by all and sundry.

They have only been in comparable equipment in the last 2 years and this one.

2009:

Jenson: Belgium - Rammed by Grosjean - no fault

Lewis: Australia - Disqualified - part fault
Belgium - Rammed by Alguersuari - no fault
Brazil - Brake issue - part fault

2010:

Jenson: Monaco - Sidepod plug left in by engineer - no fault
Belgium - Rammed by Vettel - no fault

Lewis: Spain - Wheelrim - part fault
Hungary - Gearbox - part fault
Italy - Hit Massa - whole fault
Singapore - Incident with Webber - part fault

2011: No issues

Nobody can know how much a driver is to blame for mechanical issues but it cannot be denied that drivers have some effect on this so I've assigned part fault.

So in all Jenson has had 3 retirements through absolutely no fault of his own.

Lewis has had 7 retirements, 1 no fault, 5 part fault and 1 totally his fault.

Slightly different story.

why is it not so fair because your favoured driver comes off worse?
Some how i doubt you would be complaining if it came out the other way = definition of a fan boy

[Rocket73]

I don't believe there's any truth at all in that these days.
'Don't go too fast Lewis'? No.

and yet while they have been at the same team lewis has made more mistakes, crashed more and had more equipment failures than Jenson. oh wait sorry I'm not allowed to have that opinion am I...

[pinkypants]

and yet while they have been at the same team lewis has made more mistakes, crashed more and had more equipment failures than Jenson. oh wait sorry I'm not allowed to have that opinion am I...

And still ended up in front of Jenson in the points last year.

Which begs the question, what is your point exactly and how is it relevant to how they have performed in 2011?

[trogggy]

and yet while they have been at the same team lewis has made more mistakes, crashed more and had more equipment failures than Jenson. oh wait sorry I'm not allowed to have that opinion am I...

If you're arguing that he's closer to the edge so he crashes out more then I've no problem with that.
If you're seriously arguing that his driving style is causing wheel-rim and gearbox failures then, although it's possible, there's no evidence for that that I can see. And I think it's barmy to claim it.
No barmier than some of the conspiracy theories from [you know the ones I mean] others though.

[Rocket73]

Jenson's style by putting less stress on the rim, and getting one more lap, now that's.......hilarious.

Yet another hamilton fan trying to use ridicule and belittlement and nothing much else to make some sort of point. WHY is it ridiculous lewymp4?

we are talking about 1 lap in 60 odd. many many people agree that JB and LH have differing styles. smooth and steady against hard and fast. these sort of styles have been prevalent in motor racing for donkey's years. it's not hard to comprehend.

[pinkypants]

basically i suggested that Jenson had to do lewis a favour by not taking his rightful racing line and taking both macca's out of the race. plainly it seems that such blasphemy is utterly intolerated on this 'Lewis is God' thread and i have been insulted and ridiculed ever since.

No, that's not true at all. It's getting very boring to hear the same old stereotypical arguments rehashed with very little facts or context. We accept that Lewis will make mistakes, things will be his fault, but at the same time his critics on this thread should not have a carte blanche to ridicule and nit pick at him their prejudices / opinions against him and his actions. People do have the right to put forward a logic and factually / reality based opinions, unfortunately people are arguing passionately for unsubstantiated claims (from pro/against Lewis AND Jenson) as fact which of course other posters are going to argue against.

Then the argument moves on to insulting / degrading other posters because what either side is arguing can probably never be proven.

Let's not have this thread go down the path of the Lewis 2011 thread. There are threads for Lewis 2011, Alonso v. Hamilton etc, this one's for Lewis v. Jenson IN 2011. Sometimes it would be nice to view posts related to the topic matter, but in the gaps between races when everyone is bored and watching for the next free practice to start, maybe this kind of thing is inevitable.

[Rocket73]

why is it not so fair because your favoured driver comes off worse?
Some how i doubt you would be complaining if it came out the other way = definition of a fan boy

you guys just can't help it can you?

seems like it was a fair opinion well put if you ask me simply

[pinkypants]

you guys just can't help it can you?

seems like it was a fair opinion well put if you ask me simply

Well not really, as you haven't actually put any real evidence for it forward have you?

[Rocket73]

Well not really, as you haven't actually put any real evidence for it forward have you?

evidence for what? i was talking about lazy's post that simply posted

[Rocket73]

The problem with that philosophy arises when you put an Ayrton Senna in the Teams other car. You can't go as slowly as possible when the other guy is going as fast as possible.

Yeah Alain Prost had a real problem with his philosophy didn't he? Triple world champion - what a failure and this guy was seriously admired for his style.

And what's more, he would have beaten Senna and made it 4 WDC's if Ayrton hadn't cheated and crashed into him.

[Rocket73]

Lets look at some facts regarding your comparison between Button and Hamilton...

Out of his 74 GP started, Hamilton has retired due to reliability issues on 3 occassions. 4% of races - 'too hard on his car' hit rate.

Out of his 192 GP started, Button has retired due to reliability issues on 34 occassions. 17.7% of races- 'too hard on his car' hit rate. (I even helped JB out by not including Monaco last year)

Out of his 74 GP started, Hamilton has retired due to crashes/collisions/spun off on 6 occassions. 8.1% of races- costly mistakes (I'm assuming you would blame all of these retirements on Hamilton)

Out of his 192 GP started, Button has retired due to crashes/collisons/spun off on 17 occassions. 8.8% of races

So, you see, what you claim as a shortcoming isn't really a shortcoming, especially when compared to the driver you hold up as a shining light of mistake free car loving racing. It would be nice if Lewis had 100% reliability and never made any mistakes. But this is F1. Drivers take it to the edge, and this pays off in spades for Hamilton, as well as being occassionally costly. From the championship table last season it would appear that Hamilton's approach was superior to that of Button's. In fact, Button, the less mistake prone and most reliable of racers finished behind four drivers who made more errors and suffered more unreliability than he did. Nope, I'm quite happy to waive the perceived shortcoming you attribute to Hamilton, mainly because it's not much of a shortcoming.

Come on man - jenson spent most of his his career in a dodgy honda which either fell apart on it's own or because it had to be driven so hard to get any pace out of it.

While they have been at the same team with the same equipment the difference has been massive. but you can carry on ignoring it if you like

[PretentiousBread]

Come on man - jenson spent most of his his career in a dodgy honda which either fell apart on it's own or because it had to be driven so hard to get any pace out of it.

While they have been at the same team with the same equipment the difference has been massive. but you can carry on ignoring it if you like

So just tell me, if Jenson has more mechanical retirements this season will that be because he has overdriven, or will it be the more logical explanation that it's actually down to blind luck whether your engine or gearbox packs it in?

[Gareth]

evidence for what?

That the wheel rim failure was partly Hamilton's fault. That his gearbox failure in Hungary was partly his fault.

No evidence has been provided for either of these claims. "drivers can have an impact on reliability" is about as much has been put forward, and is horrendously generic and not useful for analysing those too incidents. For example the statement "some human beings jump to conclusions without evidence" is true but it is hardly evidence that Lazy has done that in this instance.

[Kvothe]

That the wheel rim failure was partly Hamilton's fault. That his gearbox failure in Hungary was partly his fault.

No evidence has been provided for either of these claims. "drivers can have an impact on reliability" is about as much has been put forward, and is horrendously generic and not useful for analysing those too incidents. For example the statement "some human beings jump to conclusions without evidence" is true but it is hardly evidence that Lazy has done that in this instance.

good point.

[rhukkas]

While they have been at the same team with the same equipment the difference has been massive. but you can carry on ignoring it if you like

Well then Jenson is maybe driving to slow then, and not taking enough risks because last year he finished behind Hamilton.

That's the only stat that matters.

[JustinCider]

Yeah Alain Prost had a real problem with his philosophy didn't he? Triple world champion - what a failure and this guy was seriously admired for his style.

And what's more, he would have beaten Senna and made it 4 WDC's if Ayrton hadn't cheated and crashed into him.

Prost is a four time world champion. You seem to have a different slant on F1 compared to the vast majority of people who follow the sport.

Edited by JustinCider, 26 April 2011 - 12:45.

[velgajski1]

Come on man - jenson spent most of his his career in a dodgy honda which either fell apart on it's own or because it had to be driven so hard to get any pace out of it.

While they have been at the same team with the same equipment the difference has been massive. but you can carry on ignoring it if you like

So, when Hamilton breaks his car or causes the collision then the problem is Hamilton, but when Button does the same - then the problem is equipment?

Honda wasn't a bad team at all, they were horrid in 2007 and 2008, but otherwise it was a solid midfield team. Also, lets not forget that Button drove Williams and Renault which were also at worst solid midfield teams.

[hotstickyslick]

Rocket73

Do you know which McLaren driver retired more due to reliability problems in 1988?

[gricey1981]

Rocket73

Do you know which McLaren driver retired more due to reliability problems in 1988?

I doubt it. He does not seem to know that Prost was not a 3 times WDC.

[Dunder]

I doubt it. He does not seem to know that Prost was not a 3 times WDC.

He was a 3 times WDC.
The one in the Williams doesn't count.

[Rocket73]

I doubt it. He does not seem to know that Prost was not a 3 times WDC.

My mistake - 4 times WDC which should have been 5. Only strengthens my theory...