3409 replies to this topic

[YellowHelmet]

No, in your case maybe "The Grinch"

j/k

Btw, just in case someone may have missed it (which I doubd but anyway...)

Alonso vs Hamilton.

with the right team principal even the combination of alonso and hamilton would have ended better than it did.

[as65p]

He couldn't overtake Petrov because the track and Renault's speed in the straight not because he succumbed under pressure that day, Hamilton couldn't overtake Kubica either.

Yeah, but the Hamilton fans prefered interpretation of that is that he just couldn't be bothered to try.

[velgajski1]

Yeah, but the Hamilton fans prefered interpretation of that is that he just couldn't be bothered to try.

I am stunned by degree of obsession by Hamilton that some Alonso fans show on this thread

[e34]

I am stunned by degree of obsession by Hamilton that some Alonso fans show on this thread

So am I about the degree of obsession with Button / Whitmarsh / McLaren in general / Stewards / Whiting / the press / haters / the world at large/ that some Hamilton fans show in his threads.

Opps, this is a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it?

[Desdirodeabike]

The official results say that hamilton and alonso finished on the same points. End of!

Small correction. Hamilton had more podiums than Alonso - therefore Hamilton is placed above Alonso in the standings.

[puxanando]

Small correction. Hamilton had more podiums than Alonso - therefore Hamilton is placed above Alonso in the standings.

Dennis said to a group of British journalists in the paddock at the circuit. “But we weren’t at all fazed about Kimi [Raikkonen, of Ferrari]. We weren’t racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando.”

...... all I have to say to this!

[Mika Mika]

Dennis said to a group of British journalists in the paddock at the circuit. “But we weren’t at all fazed about Kimi [Raikkonen, of Ferrari]. We weren’t racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando.”

...... all I have to say to this!

My fave quote... The most important word is... racing... rather than getting on the radio to tell him that he is F.A.S.T.E.R than you...;)

[klyster]

Exactly, at least they were able to race each other, better than team orders....

[kandru]

Small correction. Hamilton had more podiums than Alonso - therefore Hamilton is placed above Alonso in the standings.

I would suggest you not to believe what you hear...and try to find the evidences yourself, adn you'll realise they actually had the same number of podiums ;)
He obtained a 2nd position more though...which in the end was the one that made him achieve 2nd position. Anyway, that cannot be considered as beating Alonso...just being in front of him in the standings due to the tie-breaking rules applied by the FIA at the time.
If instead of positions in the race, relative positions among them would apply, Alonso would have been in front...but it wouldn't make any difference. The fact being that neither of them won the championship and they finished with the same amount of points

[Desdirodeabike]

I would suggest you not to believe what you hear...and try to find the evidences yourself, adn you'll realise they actually had the same number of podiums ;)
He obtained a 2nd position more though...which in the end was the one that made him achieve 2nd position. Anyway, that cannot be considered as beating Alonso...just being in front of him in the standings due to the tie-breaking rules applied by the FIA at the time.
If instead of positions in the race, relative positions among them would apply, Alonso would have been in front...but it wouldn't make any difference. The fact being that neither of them won the championship and they finished with the same amount of points

All right. A higher podium finish then. But the result is the same. If Kimi had not existed, the rookie would have won the championship - not Alonso.

[broooz]

All right. A higher podium finish then. But the result is the same. If Kimi had not existed, the rookie would have won the championship - not Alonso.

In any case, this is an academic, pointless discussion. If anything, Hamilton and Alonso were as closely matched as possible in 2007. Points were the same, wins were the same.
If you want to use the word "beating", then just look at what Massa did to Kimi in 2008 and 2009. That was a tangible difference.

Edited by broooz, 07 June 2011 - 08:12.

[ferrarijon123]

All right. A higher podium finish then. But the result is the same. If Kimi had not existed, the rookie would have won the championship - not Alonso.

If Kimi hadnt existed bla bla bla, he did exist and beat hamilton end of! And hamilton and alonso finished on the same points, nobody can argue with that becuase its what the points show.

[kryziuotis]

All right. A higher podium finish then. But the result is the same. If Kimi had not existed, the rookie would have won the championship - not Alonso.

If Kimi had not existed, Alonso would have finished the last race in second palace - that means 2 more points for him, and Hamilton in sixth - 1 more point. So Alonso would have won the championship

[ferrarijon123]

If Kimi had not existed, Alonso would have finished the last race in second palace - that means 2 more points for him, and Hamilton in sixth - 1 more point. So Alonso would have won the championship

Haha great point, didnt realise that

[broooz]

If Kimi had not existed, Alonso would have finished the last race in second palace - that means 2 more points for him, and Hamilton in sixth - 1 more point. So Alonso would have won the championship

If we remove Kimi from all the races and promote Hamilton and Alonso accordingly, Alonso wins 125:118.
If we disqualify Ferrari drivers from the Brazilian race for using illegal team orders, Alonso wins 113:111.

Edited by broooz, 07 June 2011 - 09:30.

[ferrarijon123]

All right. A higher podium finish then. But the result is the same. If Kimi had not existed, the rookie would have won the championship - not Alonso.

Well this post backfired

[ZuTiMa]

Dennis said to a group of British journalists in the paddock at the circuit. “But we weren’t at all fazed about Kimi [Raikkonen, of Ferrari]. We weren’t racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando.”

...... all I have to say to this!

The best quote ever describing in one sentence what was really happening at Macca in 2007 ... You right Puxanando.... nothing more to say.....

Edited by ZuTiMa, 07 June 2011 - 10:13.

[prty]

If we remove Kimi from all the races and promote Hamilton and Alonso accordingly, Alonso wins 125:118.
If we disqualify Ferrari drivers from the Brazilian race for using illegal team orders, Alonso wins 113:111.

That backfired it seems

[Desdirodeabike]

Haha great point, didnt realise that

Haha, nice one. But I'm pretty sure you know what I meant.
Anyway, I wasn't picking a fight. Just pointing out that Hamilton did in fact finish higher in the standings than Alonso. And that is a fact.

[broooz]

Haha, nice one. But I'm pretty sure you know what I meant.
Anyway, I wasn't picking a fight. Just pointing out that Hamilton did in fact finish higher in the standings than Alonso. And that is a fact.

Hamilton finished ahead of Alonso by just about as much as the preseason list of entries would show drivers with the lower starting number higher on the list.

[Smile17]

2nd, 3th or 10th in 2007 I don't think Alonso cares one bit. There was a WDC (which is the only important thing) to fight for that year and McLaren didn't make it easy..

[broooz]

2nd, 3th or 10th in 2007 I don't think Alonso cares one bit. There was a WDC (which is the only important thing) to fight for that year and McLaren didn't make it easy..

Mclaren did not act as a team ini 2007, not at all. The whole idea of letting Hamilton race Alonso was fundamentally wrong.

[Dunder]

Mclaren did not act as a team ini 2007, not at all. The whole idea of letting Hamilton race Alonso was fundamentally wrong.

LOL.

[broooz]

LOL.

Had they backed Alonso and let Hamilton learn for the first year, they would have won the WDC easily. Even a small favour would have been enough - like Massa did for Kimi.

[fabr68]

Mclaren did not act as a team ini 2007, not at all. The whole idea of letting Hamilton racing against Alonso was fundamentally wrong.

Fixed it.

[Dunder]

Had they backed Alonso and let Hamilton learn for the first year, they would have won the WDC easily. Even a small favour would have been enough - like Massa did for Kimi.

Massa backed Kimi at the END of the season.

You are probably right that Alonso would have won if Hamilton backed him up from that start but the same is true in reverse.
If Alonso wanted to have a subservient team mate he should have stayed with Flavio.

[speng]

Mclaren did not act as a team ini 2007, not at all. The whole idea of letting Hamilton race Alonso was fundamentally wrong.

What!!!! too funny.

[Slartibartfast]

Had they backed Alonso and let Hamilton learn for the first year, they would have won the WDC easily. Even a small favour would have been enough - like Massa did for Kimi.

(my bold emphasis)
Or vice-versa. So I assume you don't agree with the following statement, even though it says materially the same as your earlier post:

"Mclaren did not act as a team ini 2007, not at all. The whole idea of letting Alonso race Hamilton was fundamentally wrong."

On the positive side, I also disagree with that statement. The whole idea of not allowing the two drivers of a team to race is fundamentally wrong.

[broooz]

(my bold emphasis)
Or vice-versa. So I assume you don't agree with the following statement, even though it says materially the same as your earlier post:

"Mclaren did not act as a team ini 2007, not at all. The whole idea of letting Alonso race Hamilton was fundamentally wrong."

On the positive side, I also disagree with that statement. The whole idea of not allowing the two drivers of a team to race is fundamentally wrong.

I do not agree because favouring Hamilton, a rookie, made no sense. He was bound to make mistakes sooner or later. He should have been groomed as the 2nd driver in 2007 and McLaren then could let them race in 2008.

[Apollonius]

(my bold emphasis)
Or vice-versa. So I assume you don't agree with the following statement, even though it says materially the same as your earlier post:

"Mclaren did not act as a team ini 2007, not at all. The whole idea of letting Alonso race Hamilton was fundamentally wrong."

On the positive side, I also disagree with that statement. The whole idea of not allowing the two drivers of a team to race is fundamentally wrong.

Yet despite the mistakes he came second in the championship. It was 100% the right choice to let him race - he was and is a faster racer than Alonso.

[velgajski1]

I do not agree because favouring Hamilton, a rookie, made no sense. He was bound to make mistakes sooner or later. He should have been groomed as the 2nd driver in 2007 and McLaren then could let them race in 2008.

But then again, he made less mistakes and drove better than Alonso that season. They finished equal on points becuse team screwed up Hamilton more than Alonso (probably because Alonso inherited Kimi's McLaren team which was stronger). When you look overall reliability issues and team strategy errors, more were made with Hamilton - in that sense Alonso is quite lucky to finish only one second place apart from Hamilton.

[zeph]

Alonso is not without blame in the '07 disaster. He reacted badly when Hamilton was just as quick and should have just kept his mouth shut and do the talking on the track. He turned the team against him, nobody else's fault. If he'd kept his cool and used his brains, he would have still been WDC.

Nevertheless, I think Mclaren made a mistake by giving in to Hamilton. I guess the lure of their homegrown rookie nailing the WDC was irresistible. Their loss, though.

Edited by zeph, 07 June 2011 - 14:42.

[broooz]

But then again, he made less mistakes and drove better than Alonso that season. They finished equal on points becuse team screwed up Hamilton more than Alonso (probably because Alonso inherited Kimi's McLaren team which was stronger). When you look overall reliability issues and team strategy errors, more were made with Hamilton - in that sense Alonso is quite lucky to finish only one second place apart from Hamilton.

I do not agree. A rookie in such a situation will simply make as many mistakes as necessary for him to lose. Hamilton did his share of mistakes when the stage fright got the better of him. Had his advantage been bigger, he would have frightened more and made more mistakes. Of course, I cannot prove it, but take a look at this:

First 9 races:
Hamilton 70 points (avg. 7.8)
Alonso 58 points (avg. 6.4)

Next (and last) 8 races:
Hamilton 39 points (avg. 4.9)
Alonso 51 points (avg. 6.4)

The psychological effect was there and it worked its way into Hamilton's driving....and it would have done it so anyway. McLaren was simply bound to lose the WDC the very moment they decided to back a rookie against the rival in a superior car (yes, Ferrari was an overall superior car in 2007).

Had McLaren backed Alonso in 2007, he would have won the WDC and then in 2008, if Hamilton was really that good (and he is certainly very good), he would have been given an opportunity to beat Alonso for the WDC in 2008. Considering the level of the driving the Ferrari drivers displayed then, it would have been a straight fight between the two McLaren drivers. But as Zeph stated above, McLaren couldn't resist favouring their homegrown driver to win the title in his first year. They forgot that such a thing has never happened....and most probably never will.

Edited by broooz, 07 June 2011 - 14:50.

[kryziuotis]

On the positive side, I also disagree with that statement. The whole idea of not allowing the two drivers of a team to race is fundamentally wrong.

Most teams lets the drivers race, and this was not the problem at McLaren in 2007. While we rarely see clear number 1 and number 2 drivers, theres no such thing as absolute equality in F1. Theres always a better strategy, a better timing for qualifying run, first call to change tires during the rain, etc. So someone receives all such favours in every team. So the team alowed them to race during the whole year, but until Monaco it was Alonso, who received all such favours, but then the focus shifted and team started favouring Hamilton. Thats what we are talking about and that was McLarens mistake.

[Cesc]

Well, the old story. I will add some things despite someone gets angry for feeding an old discussion... sorry guys.

I don't think that a cold analysis on the results help to well to understand what happened that season.

Alonso was the driver who got more Q2 'poles' that year (he was the fastest in 6 Q2 sessions, more than any other) but strangely he got only 2 poles. There was always the mistery/rumour about the pressure of the tires.. whatever, the fact to me is that either in China and Brazil, Alonso was driving a crap car compared to hamilton (look at the fastest laps of Brazil, Alonso was about 6 tenths slower than Hamilton, but I guess he only wanted to scape from there and would accept anything).

McLaren didn't have to give priority to Alonso versus Hamilton in any term, but a little bit of emotional support would have helped, come on!. Towards the end of the season the team didn't hide that they were supporting Lewis and racing against Alonso...

The strategy they choose for qualifying was stupid. Loading the cars with the same amount of fuel to not rise suspicions of favouring one driver or another was stupid. Ferrari played better that game and generally their drivers were carrying different fuel loads in Q3. As Hamilton generally got better results than Alonso in Q3, he had the benefit of a better strategy as Alonso had to pit before... And finally the Hungaroring case. Alonso acted wrong, he played dirty with the blocking... but he got penalized because the very same team he was driving in complained!!!!!!!! so instead of a 1- Alonso 2-Hamilton in the starting grid, they preffered a 1- Hamilton and 5 or 6 - Alonso!!

I would have solved the issue internally, but they were quite incompetent solving anything internally that year. So all in all, every one lose. McLaren lost Alonso, a driver who always delivers good or exceptional results. Alonso lose a winning car for a couple of seasons. Maybe Hamilton was the only one who won.

Edited by Cesc, 07 June 2011 - 14:54.

[broooz]

Thanks Cesc, this was a nice analysis.
And just to complement your conclusion, Hamilton won indeed but the biggest winner was Räikkönen who, without sheer stupidity on McLaren's part, would have finished his F1 career without the WDC title.

Edited by broooz, 07 June 2011 - 14:57.

[zeph]

Maybe Hamilton was the only one who won.

Absolutely.

[Slartibartfast]

Most teams lets the drivers race, and this was not the problem at McLaren in 2007. While we rarely see clear number 1 and number 2 drivers, theres no such thing as absolute equality in F1. Theres always a better strategy, a better timing for qualifying run, first call to change tires during the rain, etc.

I Agree.

So someone receives all such favours in every team. So the team alowed them to race during the whole year, but until Monaco it was Alonso, who received all such favours, but then the focus shifted and team started favouring Hamilton.

I disagree.

Thats what we are talking about and that was McLarens mistake.

As a consequence of disagreeing with the earlier statement, I disagree with the conclusion.

[velgajski1]

The strategy they choose for qualifying was stupid. Loading the cars with the same amount of fuel to not rise suspicions of favouring one driver or another was stupid. Ferrari played better that game and generally their drivers were carrying different fuel loads in Q3. As Hamilton generally got better results than Alonso in Q3, he had the benefit of a better strategy as Alonso had to pit before... And finally the Hungaroring case. Alonso acted wrong, he played dirty with the blocking... but he got penalized because the very same team he was driving in complained!!!!!!!! so instead of a 1- Alonso 2-Hamilton in the starting grid, they preffered a 1- Hamilton and 5 or 6 - Alonso!!

You are either lying or are uninformed. McLaren tried to cover up Alonso and got penalised for it too.

[Kelateboy]

I do not agree because favouring Hamilton, a rookie, made no sense. He was bound to make mistakes sooner or later. He should have been groomed as the 2nd driver in 2007 and McLaren then could let them race in 2008.

Which Hamilton did at the end of 2007 season. He had the WDC in the bag...

[DLaw]

t has been two years...guys.

[Kelateboy]

McLaren didn't have to give priority to Alonso versus Hamilton in any term, but a little bit of emotional support would have helped, come on!. Towards the end of the season the team didn't hide that they were supporting Lewis and racing against Alonso...

And the oft-quoted Ron Dennis remark that he made to explain Hamilton beaching his car at the pit entrance in China immediately comes to mind.

Could you have equality in the team when the whole team was racing against their other driver?

[Cesc]

You are either lying or are uninformed. McLaren tried to cover up Alonso and got penalised for it too.

Well, calm down....

It was not McLaren who complained, but the complain came internally (Hamilton or his father, as one of the most absurd moments in F1 history). Because initially, Alonso didn't receive any penalty. But Hamilton complaint triggered a deeper investigation.

Yes, afterwards, McLaren tried to appeal and so on. But nobody external to the team complained about anything, so they should have remained quited to the stewards and had a fight (if necessary) inside the motorhome.

Edited by Cesc, 07 June 2011 - 15:20.

[velgajski1]

Well, calm down....

It was not McLaren who complained, but the complain came internally (Hamilton or his father, as one of the most absurd moments in F1 history). Because initially, Alonso didn't receive any penalty. But Hamilton complaint triggered a deeper investigation.

Yes, afterwards, McLaren tried to appeal and so on. But nobody external to the team complained about anything, so they should have remained quited to the stewards and had a fight (if necessary) inside the motorhome.

That penalty was completely unfair in my opinion. But, I would like some quote that complain came 'internally'. All I know is McLaren clearly said Lewis has only himself to blame because he messed up the sequence. This was always an internal issue, but as usual FIA is meddling where it shouldn't.

Alonso fanboys are looking at wrong place to put on the blame for Alonso 2007. season when they blame Ron Dennis.

Three important factors:
1. Alonso driving and errors he made. This took most of points. Had Alonso managed to outperform Lewis, none of the rest would have happened.
2. McLaren being unable to outdevelop Ferrari in second part of season (Ron Dennis stated early in championship, 'we will turn this WDC into inter-McLaren showdown in few races')
3. Undeserved Hungary penalty for Alonso/McLaren.

Look at those three factors, they should put more insight as to why Alonso didn't win 2007. WDC, rest of it is just fanboyish talk. Go to Jenson vs. Lewis thread, part of Lewis fanboys also blame McLaren (supposedly they like Button more) for his 2010. season.

To be honest I find it all very silly.

Its Hamilton fans that could actually blame McLaren more for 2007. season (altough, these things happen to all teams, just look at how badly Ferrari messed up Massa in 2008.), because they messed his season worst then Alonso. It's not that Hamilton choked, its McLaren that choked in last 2 races.

Alonso fans should basically blame the FIA for punishing Alonso in Hungary and rest of the blame is solely on Alonso.

Edited by velgajski1, 07 June 2011 - 16:43.

[broooz]

And yet, just give Hamilton or Alonso the benefit Kimi got in Brazil, at any race (bar Belgium) those two finished in a consecutive order, and a McLaren driver would have won the WDC.

It's a great pity how the season panned out in the end. A great driver closed the doors of a great team forver and then lost 2 more years in barely competitive or uncompetitive cars. 2 drivers that both deserved the WDC lost it while the guy who, honestly, did not deserve it, won by default and due to team orders.

Edited by broooz, 07 June 2011 - 16:50.

[broooz]

....
It's not that Hamilton choked, its McLaren that choked in last 2 races.
....

McLaren might have made certain mistakes but Hamilton's inexperience sealed the deal. An experienced driver would dive in the pits in China earlier and would probably played the things differently in Brazil.

No, Dennis's blind ambition of making Hamilton the WDC (after he fell out with Alonso) deprived them of the title.

[robefc]

And the oft-quoted Ron Dennis remark that he made to explain Hamilton beaching his car at the pit entrance in China immediately comes to mind.

Could you have equality in the team when the whole team was racing against their other driver?

I'd love to understand how the whole team was racing against him.

Some alonso fans latch onto that quote and how they use it is just frankly disingenuous.

[robefc]

McLaren might have made certain mistakes but Hamilton's inexperience sealed the deal. An experienced driver would dive in the pits in China earlier and would probably played the things differently in Brazil.

No, Dennis's blind ambition of making Hamilton the WDC (after he fell out with Alonso) deprived them of the title.

SO a more experienced driver would what, mend his own gearbox?

[broooz]

SO a more experienced driver would what, mend his own gearbox?

I am pretty sure that Hamilton caused the problem. Even if not, China was an opportunity good enough....he needed just 4 points in 2 races, playing it safe in China would have certainly brought 4th place. Also, the Brazil strategy left a lot to be desired.

[as65p]

I'd love to understand how the whole team was racing against him.

Some alonso fans latch onto that quote and how they use it is just frankly disingenuous.

What do you expect, honestly? A rare case of a straightforward quote from a main player, and you think people should a agree that he didn't really mean it like he said it?

If you look for disingenuous, try the folklore interpretation of Alonsos 6/10 quote as him claiming he's 6/10s faster than other drivers.