1197 replies to this topic

[Hephaistos]

Very irritating

I just can't understand how you can almost destroy a company just out of revenge. Where's justice? If judges decided to sentence people even harder just because they didn't like them and show leniency when they are infatuated with others I guess all european newspaper will report the scandal and some heads will fall.
I hate Alonso and mosley ever since. His number one status demand cost us both title while Renault were caught spying and blatantly cheating but got away with it.
What's the relation with this topic?
I think McLaren got badly hurt and have tried, may be too hard, to wipe out that deep wound.
Well may be my iritation has altered my judgement.

[undersquare]

Very irritating

I just can't understand how you can almost destroy a company just out of revenge. Where's justice? If judges decided to sentence people even harder just because they didn't like them and show leniency when they are infatuated with others I guess all european newspaper will report the scandal and some heads will fall.
I hate Alonso and mosley ever since. His number one status demand cost us both title while Renault were caught spying and blatantly cheating but got away with it.
What's the relation with this topic?
I think McLaren got badly hurt and have tried, may be too hard, to wipe out that deep wound.
Well may be my iritation has altered my judgement.

Shocking really: "Mosley joked that it was “$5 million for the offence and $95 million for Ron being a twat”. What McLaren have had to overcome with the sport's corrupt governance. I think it has coloured their approach to the cars, they are sooo correct, consulting the FIA all the time over F-duct, and the front wing of the ~26 still looks totally rigid when we all saw last year that it can bend as long as it passes the tests.

I'm just hoping that this on-the-edge rear wing that's been rumoured is a reality.

[primer]

But unlike Reno, Mclaren didn't get penalized for 'just' cheating. Some people here are only too willing to rewrite history.

Besides the real punishment was that they were to be kicked out of sport/business, but after commercial pressures FIA manipulated the process and settled for gouging millions out of Mclaren. I have no doubt that Mercedes and Mclaren were also party in deciding just how much FIA could gouge out of them, it was a very 'mafia' business deal between all these people.

Some would say -including Mosley after his departure from FIA- that Mclaren got away easy.

Edited by primer, 25 February 2011 - 10:09.

[JackTorrance]

Very irritating

I just can't understand how you can almost destroy a company just out of revenge. Where's justice?

Yea, where is it? Mclaren got warned it would face a 2 year exclusion if new evidence surfaced, and that it did. So where is our 2 year exclusion? Why did Mclaren and Denis get away with just a warning in the first WMSC-meeting? What is that for insult to F1 fans worldwide?

And why are you getting all upset about the accounts of one guy? Did people ask the other party involved if this is true?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Wow, talk about a misleading headline.

[Stormsky68]

Its not just about McLaren, Eccelstone and Mosley have treated most of the paddock very badly during their reign, their actions can at best be described as immoral.

Its shocking that they have got away with so much for so long, but the teams have always had free will to walk away, start a break away and run their own fair open honest and transparent series, yet all have volunarily chosen not to. Right now if Ferrari, Mclaren and RB left for their own series half the grid would follow and F1 would be damaged beyond recovery.

I feel sorry for Ron and McLaren but the situation is to some extent of their own making. Lie with dogs and you get fleas.

[Buttoneer]

Wow, talk about a misleading headline.

If you're talking about the thread title, that's my fault and I have changed it to match the story headline. Story headline is thankfully nothing to do with me.

[as65p]

Shocking really: "Mosley joked that it was “$5 million for the offence and $95 million for Ron being a twat”.

I don't see what's so shocking about it now, that's what most people already thought at the time. Espionage is utterly common in F1, and as such, normally it would have been dealt with swiftly and not too strict, the governing bodys main interest being to not damage F1 in the public eye. That's what happened with Toyotas and Renaults offenses in recent years.

I think Dennis brought the wrath of Mosley upon him first because of their long-standing personal animosity (which of course isn't right, but they are people and people are like that), but equally importantly because of McLarens ongoing refusal to admit their fault and plead guilty. Instead they blubbered on and on about their shiny morals even when the evidence became more and more damning.

It's no different than in civil courts, really. You can only afford to ride the high horse if you damn sure to either be innocent or totally uncatchable. In all other cases it's a pretty dumb thing to do.

[Ross Stonefeld]

If you're talking about the thread title, that's my fault and I have changed it to match the story headline. Story headline is thankfully nothing to do with me.

Well it was just repeating what the website had spun it as. Though as soon as I saw the Mosley quote I chuckled and thought "finally, the proof we need of every conspiracy theory".

[pRy]

I read that expecting some new revelations or something but it's just stuff we already knew surely.

[undersquare]

I'm gonna have to buy the book, anyway. And the Susan Watkins one.

I didn't realise Bernie was such an enemy of Ron, at the time of Spygate he was presented as being on his side, ISTR.

[undersquare]

I read that expecting some new revelations or something but it's just stuff we already knew surely.

Well that Max quote was new to me, even if I knew in myself that's how the FIA was operating. "Mosley joked that it was “$5 million for the offence and $95 million for Ron being a twat”.

In a sense it's not new, but it does shine a light on how it was all manipulated.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Or, it was a joke.

But let's ignore the actual fact that McLaren were going to be banned initially but instead were fined.

[Fastcake]

Well we already knew Mosley had such a grudge against Dennis, this just shows it again to be true. It was a shameful way to operate an investigation, there was more than one guilty party and having Max in his favourite role as judge jury and executioner stopped any chance of decent actions from occurring.

[baddog]

Oh bollocks, Mac were damned lucky not to be looking at a TTE situation. They got off light, the money was just to make their punishment not a total joke.

[undersquare]

Oh bollocks, Mac were damned lucky not to be looking at a TTE situation. They got off light, the money was just to make their punishment not a total joke.

Nope, what they did was quite trivial and normal by the standards of the time, as Pedro de la Rosa said. It was normal for information to get passed around. The dossier was between Stepney and Coughlan, after that there were the texts and calls between a slightly bonkers disaffected employee and his mate, starting with a frustration that the FIA seemed determined to let Ferrari run an illegal floor, and three or four trivial bits and pieces that never even got on the car, tyre gas, fast fill and quickshft.

No big deal, until Max, Monte and Todt set about making it look like a big deal.

With great success.

And Max was only stopped from getting the 2-year ban in the February hearing by a rising tide of opposition that Bernie finally tuned into. Otherwise the February hearing would have killed off McLaren for an offence that had already been included in the presumptions on which the existing penalty was based.

It was rigged, totally, and that little 'joke' of Max's is an illustration of that.

[baddog]

Yeah they hardly stole anything and what they stole wasnt that useful, and other people can be vaguely accused of doing that stuff all the time. I say give them a buck for their trouble and pay their taxi fares home from the hearing. Or not.

[kenny]

Very irritating
... His number one status demand cost us both title...

us?

[JPW]

Some would say -including Mosley after his departure from FIA- that Mclaren got away easy.

In fact they did, a 2 year ban would have destroyed macca but more importantly would have put hundreds of people out of a a job.

Ron being a **** had to do with him foolishly denying (to the WMSC) that the Ferrari information was leaked and used within his company, he kept rambling on about his team being a beacon of integrity, a word that after this scandal no-one will ever associate with the grey cheaters.

A proper mea culpa, negotiations with the FIA and Ferrari and the sacking of those involved could have brought a less scandalous and damaging solution to this affair.
Ronzo didn't, decided to be a **** about it and paid the price, simples.

[primer]

and having Max in his favourite role as judge jury and executioner stopped any chance of decent actions from occurring.

Excluding Mclaren-Mercedes from the sport? I am not sure if ultimately that would have been the better thing to do, because:

• Fans would be whining about injustice against Mclaren-Mercedes anyway, never mind the facts or the punishment.
  
  
• F1 -the business- could not afford to lose any teams over this, particularly a well recognized one as Mclaren-Mercedes.
  
  
• FIA were better off with 100m in their account, than putting Mclaren out of business and hundreds of people into unemployment.
  
  
• Could have increased the possibility of legal action from Mclaren and/or Mercedes against FIA in a real court. Besides, being an F1 veteran Ron probably knows a few things to make life awkward for Bernie, Mosley et al.

Edited by primer, 25 February 2011 - 11:17.

[tifosiMac]

Yea, where is it? Mclaren got warned it would face a 2 year exclusion if new evidence surfaced, and that it did. So where is our 2 year exclusion? Why did Mclaren and Denis get away with just a warning in the first WMSC-meeting? What is that for insult to F1 fans worldwide?

I think if Mclaren had have been excluded for two years it wouldn't have done the sport any good IMO. It would have a similar effect on figures if Ferrari were kicked out and would be cutting off its own nose to spite its face. I don't remember anybody at the time calling for McLaren to be banned, certainly not lovers of the sport.

[JackTorrance]

In fact they did, a 2 year ban would have destroyed macca but more importantly would have put hundreds of people out of a a job.

Dont be so dramatic. Briatore, Symonds or Dave Ryan were put out of a job too. Im sure Mclaren wouldv found a different series where they could do their 'thing'.

[Slowinfastout]

Or, it was a joke.

But let's ignore the actual fact that McLaren were going to be banned initially but instead were fined.

Except they were never actually going to be banned.. they were too big..

It's almost like discussing banning Ferrari, no matter what they do it's never gonna happen.

It grates alot when people say they were going to be banned, they weren't!

[tifosiMac]

I think Dennis brought the wrath of Mosley upon him first because of their long-standing personal animosity (which of course isn't right, but they are people and people are like that), but equally importantly because of McLarens ongoing refusal to admit their fault and plead guilty. Instead they blubbered on and on about their shiny morals even when the evidence became more and more damning.

I don't think Ron mislead the FIA because he thought he could get away with cheating, I think he himself didn't realise the extent of how much information was being shared around the team. Its not something you would wish the CEO of your company to know IMO. When it became apparent that data had influenced the design Ron was transparent and helped the FIA to an extent where McLaren would get the lightest punishment possible, he couldn't do much else. The fine was a big let off IMO.

What stinks is the process and how the President of the FIA was allowed to use his personal grievances to take a part in his judgement. McLaren broke the rules pure and simple, but Mosley should have been distanced from the hearing IMO, as it was a massive conflict of interest.

[JackTorrance]

Excluding Mclaren-Mercedes from the sport? I am not sure if ultimately that would have been the better thing to do, because:

[list=1]
[*]Fans would be whining about injustice against Mclaren-Mercedes anyway, never mind the facts or the punishment.

Strange. I dont hear fans whine about Briatore and Symonds being banned from F1. In fact, fans from especially the latino countries did whine over the non punishment of Mclaren & co, with various banners, booing of drivers on podiums etc.

[as65p]

I think if Mclaren had have been excluded for two years it wouldn't have done the sport any good IMO. It would have a similar effect on figures if Ferrari were kicked out and would be cutting off its own nose to spite its face. I don't remember anybody at the time calling for McLaren to be banned, certainly not lovers of the sport.

Very true. OTOH it's no use to keep bitching about the punishment. They were guilty, they were punished. We can forever argue how guilty and how fitting the punishment, but to what avail? It would be different if McLaren would have done no wrong, but I doubt anyone serious will argue that. The main thing is, it didn't do either McLaren or F1 any lasting harm, so time to move on.

[JackTorrance]

I don't think Ron mislead the FIA because he thought he could get away with cheating, I think he himself didn't realise the extent of how much information was being shared around the team.

Funny that at crucial moments, Ron Dennis, self declared control freak, suddenly has a bout of amnesia. His test team had Ferrari info in the simulator, where Lewis Hamilton lived. His on track test team was busy testing Ferrari tyre gaz, senior engineers knew and handled the Ferrari IP but here you are saying you think Ron dennis knew nothing. A big Manuel-moment.

[as65p]

What stinks is the process and how the President of the FIA was allowed to use his personal grievances to take a part in his judgement. McLaren broke the rules pure and simple, but Mosley should have been distanced from the hearing IMO, as it was a massive conflict of interest.

Fully agree.

[werks prototype]

Well......... it is certainly interesting to compare the fortunes of the main protagonists now.

Stepney
Coughlan
Briatore
Alonso
Mosley
Ferrari
Ecclestone

Ron Dennis
McLaren

I think I know who the winner is. (Especially regarding the small matter of a certain new road car).

Talk about making the enemy stronger. Spygate has to go down in history as the most unsuccessful coup d'état ever attempted surely?

I am tempted to drop a Ben Kenobi type quote in here, but I won't!

Edited by werks prototype, 25 February 2011 - 11:30.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It grates alot when people say they were going to be banned, they weren't!

It was being discussed in the second hearing, in fact it was reported on.

[Andy35]

One thing is for sure, Max enjoyed what happened a great deal.

Andy

[Owen]

What stinks is the process and how the President of the FIA was allowed to use his personal grievances to take a part in his judgement. McLaren broke the rules pure and simple, but Mosley should have been distanced from the hearing IMO, as it was a massive conflict of interest.

Agreed. Let's face it; this episode has tainted Max and his legacy far more than it ever tainted McLaren.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Everyone who disliked Mosley had pretty much made up their mind already about him.

[pRy]

Agreed. Let's face it; this episode has tainted Max and his legacy far more than it ever tainted McLaren.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. More recent conflicts have damaged Max Mosley far more than Spygate ever did.

[JPW]

It grates alot when people say they were going to be banned, they weren't!

But people who were actually in the meeting where all this was discussed confirmed that they were going to be banned and that Bernie pleaded for their case.

Also why would Ronzo (cowardly) have Whitmarsh write that grovelling letter of apology if he knew the FIA would never ban them?

[Owen]

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. More recent conflicts have damaged Max Mosley far more than Spygate ever did.

Well, yeh, I didn't really want to bring in the other stuff. It always makes me feel a bit queasy.

[pRy]

If anyone wants to refresh their memories of this whole mess:

http://www.autosport...h/espionage.php

Is a great resource. Crazy to look back over that period and see just how many stories were in the headlines back then. Makes 2010 seem rather boring.

[New Britain]

Strange. I dont hear fans whine about Briatore and Symonds being banned from F1. In fact, fans from especially the latino countries did whine over the non punishment of Mclaren & co, with various banners, booing of drivers on podiums etc.

In the first place, if you didn't hear fans "whine" about Briatore's and Symonds's being banned, it would have been because you were not listening. Their ban was wrong because it was outside of Mosley's power to ban them, as the judge later ruled, and it was outside even Mosley's imaginary power to try to impose a secondary boycott on FIA licensees' doing business with either of them. Many people said so at the time.

Let's put to one side the illegitimacy of the regulatory process - which if you will notice was identical in one key respect to how Mosley handled the Stepney affair, in that the greatest determinant of the punishment was Mosley's personal vendetta against the man accused.
Are you seriously equating one team's having access to some of the IP of another team with a team boss's instructing his employee to crash deliberately?

[as65p]

Agreed. Let's face it; this episode has tainted Max and his legacy far more than it ever tainted McLaren.

Then again, nobody really cares for Max Mosley anyway, not after he finally had to leave his coveted power position. It's a bit different with the McLaren brand, I would say. Then again, almost all big manufacturers have some stains on their vests one way or another, so in that sense McLaren only catched up with the big boys.

[Andy35]

Well, yeh, I didn't really want to bring in the other stuff. It always makes me feel a bit queasy.

It still makes me chuckle thinking back to when Bernie said that drivers were boring and what F1 needed was a sex scandal to pep things up!

If only Bernie had known his wish was soon to be granted


Andy

Edited by AndyW35, 25 February 2011 - 13:15.

[Ross Stonefeld]

If anyone wants to refresh their memories of this whole mess:

http://www.autosport...h/espionage.php

Is a great resource. Crazy to look back over that period and see just how many stories were in the headlines back then. Makes 2010 seem rather boring.

Fernando Alonso says he was 'very happy' to help Formula 1's ruling body, the FIA, uncover the spy saga that hit the sport in 2007. "With the spy history I was in the wrong place at the wrong time," Alonso told the newspaper. "But I was very happy to help the FIA discover everything."

Jesus he makes it difficult for himself.

[JPW]

Dont be so dramatic. Briatore, Symonds or Dave Ryan were put out of a job too. Im sure Mclaren wouldv found a different series where they could do their 'thing'.

I'm sorry Jack, guess I just have a soft spot for the hard working people of Woking.

But you're right macca would have found some other racing series, weren't they involved in NASCAR and V8's somehow lately?
Or Ronzo could have started his dream of building knock-off Ferrari's a few years earlier.

[MichaelPM]

Shocking really: "Mosley joked that it was “$5 million for the offence and $95 million for Ron being a twat”.

I'm very shocked, Mosley completely unvalued how much of a **** Dennis is, atleast £1 billion worth of ****.
This is an outrage that he was let off so lightly if that was the condition.

[JPW]

I'm very shocked, Mosley completely unvalued how much of a **** Dennis is, atleast £1 billion worth of ****.
This is an outrage that he was let off so lightly if that was the condition.

Yep I thought the same thing the other day, if Ronzo was penalised in full for his "twattiness" the amount would have been substantially higher than $95 million.

[JackTorrance]

Let's put to one side the illegitimacy of the regulatory process - which if you will notice was identical in one key respect to how Mosley handled the Stepney affair, in that the greatest determinant of the punishment was Mosley's ALLEGED personal vendetta against the man accused.

Significant difference. Mosley never admitted he held a grudge against Dennis. In fact he stated he was very lenient towards Mclaren, and that the 100m fine didnt hurt them one bit. Many would agree with him. Many would also remember that at first, Mclaren didnt even get a fine, but just a warning. Those facts are pretty far from someone who wants to get at Dennis at whatever cost.

Then there are some people that still try to spin the IP theft, and subsequent deals with italian D.A. to avoid prosecution, as a personal war between Mosley and Dennis. As if Mclaren never did anything wrong.

[D.M.N.]

If anyone wants to refresh their memories of this whole mess:

http://www.autosport...h/espionage.php

Is a great resource. Crazy to look back over that period and see just how many stories were in the headlines back then. Makes 2010 seem rather boring.

...or as it unfolded, on Autosport Forums: http://forums.autosp...showtopic=95393

[cheapracer]

Yea, where is it? Mclaren got warned it would face a 2 year exclusion if new evidence surfaced, and that it did. So where is our 2 year exclusion? Why did Mclaren and Denis get away with just a warning in the first WMSC-meeting? What is that for insult to F1 fans worldwide?

..and later ....

Dont be so dramatic.

[JackTorrance]

The main thing is, it didn't do either McLaren or F1 any lasting harm, so time to move on.

Some will argue this was the start of the downfall between Mercedes and Mclaren though. And Mclaren did not make many more friends by dragging the 2007 championship to the courtrooms trying to exclude Williams driver with exactly the same argument that gave Mclaren drivers immunity over spygate. Then there are the many courtcases in 2008. And finally, that infamous melbourne 2009, where the FIA and the WMSC only showed lenience (again) because Dennis stepped down and Mclaren did not bring their battery of expensive lawyers trying to argue their way out of it.

Whitmarsh later acknowledged Mclaren had an image problem and decided to make Mclaren much more open and less corporate. And to be honest, since then, the team did gain a better image. At least with me.

[Hephaistos]

Or, it was a joke.

But let's ignore the actual fact that McLaren were going to be banned initially but instead were fined.

And let's ignore the fact that Renault got away with it while committing a much greater offence.
If you only need to admit afterwards that on offence was committed to go unscathed then anybody should cheat and risk others lives. In Renault's case it was not their first one. They got caught in possession of McLaren material before.
Get punished for what you've done. Not for being the judges' enemy.

[undersquare]

Significant difference. Mosley never admitted he held a grudge against Dennis.

Compelling evidence