284 replies to this topic

[Hole]

Definitely Alonso.

[tghik]

Nick is only rated by people that understand racing.
He wouldn't be on this poll.

Somehow the same people never chose him for the top team in the past. I rate him highly, just bringing the argument that nothing is so white/black.

[Kubiccia]

Do go and check. He is essentially correct. The facts are that Alonso and Hamilton finished the season on equal points, Although Kubica's method of summarising the season is disingenuous to say the least. Lewis definately got the better of Alonso many times that season, and vice versa.

Alonso was chasing Hamilton right 'til the end at the USA and left him for dust in Silverstone, although actually Raikkonen actually won the race. Lewis was chasing behind Alonso at Monaco and Italy and there were plenty of times where Alonso wasn't able to keep up with Lewis, such as Spain, Bahrain. Canada was a particulaly bad race for Alonso, as he slipped back from 2nd to finish 7th. Ignoring qualifying in Hungary which is a good idea, Hamilton outqualified Alonso 9 -7 but no points are awarded for pole position, and the records show they finished the season level.

even that isn't telling the truth as both qualified ahead while in lower fuel. This statistic only tells that Hamilton qualified 9 times with lower fuel while Alonso only 7.

About the pushing to the line, in Monaco and Monza, Hamilton was close to Alonso but was never a real threat and it seemed Fernando was controling the race to the line. In Indianapolis, in the other hand, Alonso was side by side on almost every lap.

Hamilton never vanished in front of Alonso as the spaniard did in Silverstone. I remember the gap getting more than 30 seconds or so. It was if they were driving different cars and Hamilton only did the pole in home because was much lower on fuel.

To Hamilton's side, he was a rookie.

[Rinehart]

Nick is only rated by people that understand racing.

Blimey, I didn't know that McLaren, Brawn and Mercedes didn't understand racing.

[Andy865]

Given the number of championships the former has amased in the past 12 years, youd be surprised.

1.


Hamilton is fast but bottles it whenever it matters, Alonso gets the job done over a season but only if his team mate is non existant and the whole team is his. Vettels reputation is interchangable with Adrian Newey's, and any of the top drivers in this poll could be interchanged with most of the other drivers on the grid plus some of the gp2/WSBR drivers. becoming succsessful in motorsport, so long as your a halfway decent driver, is about two things. The Car, and your sponsors/bank account.

Ahhh. Thats better.

[TheNewStig]

Kamui Kobayashi.

[metz]

Blimey, I didn't know that McLaren, Brawn and Mercedes didn't understand racing.

Actually, he was considered by all three.
Looked like a McLaren drive for him before the surprise Button move.
Looked like a Mercedes drive before the surprise Schumacher move.
He had an offer fron Ross after Honda pull-out (as others), but decided to stay at BMW.
Not getting a drive was more a question of circumstances rather than talent.
Why do I think you know that....

[The Kanisteri]

Overall best is Lewis Hamilton, with good equipment Sebastian Vettel is very quick.

[mlsnoopy]

How do you quantify the best driver?

[BigCHrome]

Given the number of championships the former has amased in the past 12 years, youd be surprised.

1.


Hamilton is fast but bottles it whenever it matters, Alonso gets the job done over a season but only if his team mate is non existant and the whole team is his. Vettels reputation is interchangable with Adrian Newey's, and any of the top drivers in this poll could be interchanged with most of the other drivers on the grid plus some of the gp2/WSBR drivers. becoming succsessful in motorsport, so long as your a halfway decent driver, is about two things. The Car, and your sponsors/bank account.

Ahhh. Thats better.

Alonso choked in both 2007 and 2010. Also he basically DID choke in 2006 but Italian engineering saved him.

[Seanspeed]

How do you quantify the best driver?

Lets say there's one super-mega team that is allowed to field a bunch of cars, rather than the usual two. Each of these drivers is given a seat(so equal machinery) and each driver is given undeniably equal treatment with every engineer for each driver being identical in every important aspect.

This team lasts for 10 years and each driver is in their prime for this time.

Which one comes out on top the most often?

[AlanWake]

Alonso choked in both 2007 and 2010. Also he basically DID choke in 2006 but Italian engineering saved him.

How did he choke in 2006 if he didn't mistakes and had TWO DNFs while Schumi only ONE DNF due to reability issues?

Ohh, and Alonso scored more points than Hamilton in the second half of the season in 2007 and 2010, so Hamilton isn't better than Alonso dealing with the pressure...

[Lazy]

How did he choke in 2006 if he didn't mistakes and had TWO DNFs while Schumi only ONE DNF due to reability issues?

Ohh, and Alonso scored more points than Hamilton in the second half of the season in 2007 and 2010, so Hamilton isn't better than Alonso dealing with the pressure...

Between Hamilton and Alonso. Vettel has his quick days but if Button had been in the other RB he'd have won the WDC with 3 races to spare so you can't put Vettel with the top crew yet.

[F1EC]

What I find strange here is the discrepancy in scores between Vettel and Button. Both won WDC when they were in hugely superior cars. Is Vettel getting more votes simply because his win was more recent? He hasn't shown much skill above the ability to qualify well in a good car and lead from the front, while I've seen Button overtake well in a less capable car.

So while I agree that Vettel doesn't deserve as many votes as Hamilton, Alonso, etc, I don't agree that he should get more votes than Button.

Or am I missing something? I'm happy to hear other peoples' views.

[undersquare]

What I find strange here is the discrepancy in scores between Vettel and Button. Both won WDC when they were in hugely superior cars. Is Vettel getting more votes simply because his win was more recent? He hasn't shown much skill above the ability to qualify well in a good car and lead from the front, while I've seen Button overtake well in a less capable car.

So while I agree that Vettel doesn't deserve as many votes as Hamilton, Alonso, etc, I don't agree that he should get more votes than Button.

Or am I missing something? I'm happy to hear other peoples' views.

My interpretation is that Jense was convincingly beaten by his teammate so that rules him out of being The Best, even if he may be better than Sebi.

I really thought Vettel would do better than he has, actually.

[Seanspeed]

What I find strange here is the discrepancy in scores between Vettel and Button. Both won WDC when they were in hugely superior cars. Is Vettel getting more votes simply because his win was more recent? He hasn't shown much skill above the ability to qualify well in a good car and lead from the front, while I've seen Button overtake well in a less capable car.

So while I agree that Vettel doesn't deserve as many votes as Hamilton, Alonso, etc, I don't agree that he should get more votes than Button.

Or am I missing something? I'm happy to hear other peoples' views.

Vettel is getting more votes cuz he's proven massively talented so far and at a very young age.

I dont think many people were ever convinced Button was anything that special.

[PassWind]

Lets say there's one super-mega team that is allowed to field a bunch of cars, rather than the usual two. Each of these drivers is given a seat(so equal machinery) and each driver is given undeniably equal treatment with every engineer for each driver being identical in every important aspect.

This team lasts for 10 years and each driver is in their prime for this time.

Which one comes out on top the most often?

Well it would depend on the grid placement format, and in essence your talking pretty much like Kart racing which is close to the above supposition.

Over ten years it would be very difficult to predict, pure one lap speed would have the most dramatic effect on each race result.

I don't think either Lewis or Alonso are uber qualifiers but potentially would get more wins than through race craft.

Jarno Trulli in this context would definitely be a dark horse here, he was a supremely gifted Kart driver, Massa in the same context. Big if is what that one type of car was like in terms of driving characteristics.

I have a feeling that Vettel is vastly underrated because he is pitched in comparison to another underrated driver, Vettel would definitely be a genuine threat over the course of the Ten years.


Seeing though there is a time frame and a prime time, MS would given his proven passion for driving at the highest level for an extended time which no other current driver can demonstrate except Alonso sort of has to be the favorite, he was extremely quick in qualifying and had excellent race craft, hard to not put money on him.

Seeing as we are talking about prime, Mark Webber would be the wild card based on pure speed in this scenario. In his prime speed wise his race craft was suspect so would just depend.

Jenson probably wouldn't fare to well in this format though would win often enough.



In Summary all of the drivers listed in the poll and some not are the best drivers today, add in the team variables and time of their career they are racing and it mixes it up a lot. Pick one, pick whichever that suits your personal bias and you can't be wrong in my opinion, but it will give good reason to come to places like this and ramble to try and convince others not like minded why your your opinion is right.

Oh and its just my opinion.

[Eff One 2002]

Right now of the current grid, I believe it is too close to call between Hamilton and Alonso.

[Fatgadget]

How do you quantify the best driver?

The one you THINK is, silly!..Simples.

Edited by Fatgadget, 08 March 2011 - 01:14.

[genespleen]

^^^^
And your post is

Avoid signature crap that reveals political mindlessness.

[Tsarwash]

^^^^
And your post is

The irony is that that picture wins the epic failure of the week. So stupid on so many levels. The moment he walked into office, the first black President of America achieved so much more than the guy who created the picture ever will in his whole life.

[velgajski1]

Button and Massa are underrated, Kubica overrated

[HighwaytoHell]

Bernie knows all and its no suprise he picks Alonso and Vettel in his fantasy team. He is right of course.

Vettel and Alonso are head and shoulders above the rest. With Alonso slightly better.

These two will be remembered as the best in this era. Many championships between them.

Hopefully Kubica recovers as before his accident he was definetly number three with ability to climb to the very top.

[eric2610]

Thank god this is not a representative poll.

With Alonso I would agree, I dont like him but he has proven to be a good driver.
Hamilton: The most overrated driver of the past years. What has he Achieved so far? Despite his WDC I would say nothing. The defeat of Alsonso was because Hamilton was clearly the teams favourite. Nothing else. He might be a good overtaker. But looking at his cars anybody would be a good overtaker. First of all he has always driven a Mercedes Engine. That engine is concidered the strongest engine. So he has always had more top speed than his opponents. Secondly 2009 he had KERS. The Brawns and Red Bulls did not have KERS. 2010 Mclaren had the best F-Duct. Hamilton has had better tools to overtake than his opponents for two straight years now. No wonder he overtakes more than others. But what happenes to him if he is under pressure. Well he goes out and crashes, does stupid mistakes and so on.
Has Hamilton ever shown how good he is with bad material. No because he alsways had a McLaren.

Alonso, Kubica, Vettel, Rosberg, they have all shown that they are capable of doing something very special with weaker material... Put Hamilton in a Sauber or Force India and he will be no better than Kobayashi or Sutil, he will not pruduce that extra 0,6sec.

Vettel is on his way to become the dominante driver of this decade. I think like Schumacher he is the start of a new kind of driver generation...

Many here say he cant overtake but opposite to Hamilton he has had a few races with a slow Torro Rosso (in which he still wone a race) and since then a renault engine with a lack of Horsepower. So he was never really able to set up easy overtaking manouvers.


But since I am in an Englisch speaking Forum I am sure that all the Hamilton Fanboys now will start bashing me bla bla bla
So let the bashing begin

[F1EC]

Vettel is on his way to become the dominante driver of this decade. I think like Schumacher he is the start of a new kind of driver generation...

Many here say he cant overtake but opposite to Hamilton he has had a few races with a slow Torro Rosso (in which he still wone a race) and since then a renault engine with a lack of Horsepower. So he was never really able to set up easy overtaking manouvers.

That still doesn't prove anything though, does it?

[HighwaytoHell]

Good post eric. I agree.

[Bonaventura]

Thank god this is not a representative poll.

With Alonso I would agree, I dont like him but he has proven to be a good driver.
Hamilton: The most overrated driver of the past years. What has he Achieved so far? Despite his WDC I would say nothing. The defeat of Alsonso was because Hamilton was clearly the teams favourite. Nothing else. He might be a good overtaker. But looking at his cars anybody would be a good overtaker. First of all he has always driven a Mercedes Engine. That engine is concidered the strongest engine. So he has always had more top speed than his opponents. Secondly 2009 he had KERS. The Brawns and Red Bulls did not have KERS. 2010 Mclaren had the best F-Duct. Hamilton has had better tools to overtake than his opponents for two straight years now. No wonder he overtakes more than others. But what happenes to him if he is under pressure. Well he goes out and crashes, does stupid mistakes and so on.
Has Hamilton ever shown how good he is with bad material. No because he alsways had a McLaren.

Alonso, Kubica, Vettel, Rosberg, they have all shown that they are capable of doing something very special with weaker material... Put Hamilton in a Sauber or Force India and he will be no better than Kobayashi or Sutil, he will not pruduce that extra 0,6sec.

Vettel is on his way to become the dominante driver of this decade. I think like Schumacher he is the start of a new kind of driver generation...

Many here say he cant overtake but opposite to Hamilton he has had a few races with a slow Torro Rosso (in which he still wone a race) and since then a renault engine with a lack of Horsepower. So he was never really able to set up easy overtaking manouvers.


But since I am in an Englisch speaking Forum I am sure that all the Hamilton Fanboys now will start bashing me bla bla bla
So let the bashing begin

Well, than even Vettel overrates Lewis
recently he was asked who his main rivals will be:
"Alonso for sure, and Hamilton is without question one of the best drivers," Vettel told to "Sport Bild"

[Johnrambo]

Schumacher 32
Rosberg 5

[Scotracer]

Schumacher 32
Rosberg 5

Anyone with a sense of perspective and has a memory longer than a single season would vote accordingly. You don't just suddenly forget how you became a 7xWDC.

[eric2610]

So, all English speaking people will automagically support Hamilton? How the hell are you not supporting him then?

This is an English Forum, should I start writing German or Afrikaans, or what?

Was just kidding with the last sentences.

[KR571]

Thank god this is not a representative poll.

With Alonso I would agree, I dont like him but he has proven to be a good driver.
Hamilton: The most overrated driver of the past years. What has he Achieved so far? Despite his WDC I would say nothing. The defeat of Alsonso was because Hamilton was clearly the teams favourite. Nothing else. He might be a good overtaker. But looking at his cars anybody would be a good overtaker. First of all he has always driven a Mercedes Engine. That engine is concidered the strongest engine. So he has always had more top speed than his opponents. Secondly 2009 he had KERS. The Brawns and Red Bulls did not have KERS. 2010 Mclaren had the best F-Duct. Hamilton has had better tools to overtake than his opponents for two straight years now. No wonder he overtakes more than others. But what happenes to him if he is under pressure. Well he goes out and crashes, does stupid mistakes and so on.
Has Hamilton ever shown how good he is with bad material. No because he alsways had a McLaren.

Alonso, Kubica, Vettel, Rosberg, they have all shown that they are capable of doing something very special with weaker material... Put Hamilton in a Sauber or Force India and he will be no better than Kobayashi or Sutil, he will not pruduce that extra 0,6sec.

Vettel is on his way to become the dominante driver of this decade. I think like Schumacher he is the start of a new kind of driver generation...

Many here say he cant overtake but opposite to Hamilton he has had a few races with a slow Torro Rosso (in which he still wone a race) and since then a renault engine with a lack of Horsepower. So he was never really able to set up easy overtaking manouvers.


But since I am in an Englisch speaking Forum I am sure that all the Hamilton Fanboys now will start bashing me bla bla bla
So let the bashing begin

mate u just opened the flood gates. there is a huge sh*t storm coming your way now. didn't u see the current status of the poll?
while i m not a Hamilton fan (in fact i hat.... erm lets keep the bashing focused on u), i just cannot pass this opportunity to bash u so
BAM!



yeah i know its a lame joke.

Edited by KR571, 08 March 2011 - 11:48.

[velgajski1]

Well, than even Vettel overrates Lewis
recently he was asked who his main rivals will be:
"Alonso for sure, and Hamilton is without question one of the best drivers," Vettel told to "Sport Bild"

Thats because Vettel speaks English. It makes him Hamilton fanboy. Only those that are not tainted by knowledge of English language may objectively judge Lewis Hamilton. If you know English than your first language MUST BE Spanish otherwise you will not be objective about Hamilton and will make silly posts that put him in top 3 drivers on grid, while its common knowledge in Spain and parts of the world where English is not spoken that Hamilton is a terrible driver who could never win races in any car but McLaren. And he only beat Alonso because Ron Dennis sabotaged Alonso, but in fact it was all conspiracy that started even before Alonso came to McLaren.

Edited by velgajski1, 08 March 2011 - 11:50.

[Johnrambo]

Anyone with a sense of perspective and has a memory longer than a single season would vote accordingly. You don't just suddenly forget how you became a 7xWDC.

The question was "who's the best driver TODAY". While both MS and NR are not even near that it's totally ridiculous that MS has five times the votes of NR.

Edited by Johnrambo, 08 March 2011 - 12:16.

[revlec]

hey... there are some drivers better than the others at playing politics with their team to ensure the team mate will be slow and to have the guarantee they will have all the team and the strategy only for them.. you know what i mean...

Edited by revlec, 08 March 2011 - 12:58.

[Tsarwash]

What has he Achieved so far? Despite his WDC I would say nothing.

So what does he have to do to actually achieve something in your eyes ? Working his arse off for ten years to get an opportunity (along with all the other drivers there) to race in motorsports highest disipline, grabbing an opportunity, making an immediate impact, putting himself in serious contention for the WDC in his rookie year, and then winning the most sought after trophy in motorsport (outside the USA) is no acheivement worth mentioning ? So what have you done in your life to better this ? You don't have to be a fan of Lewis to think that your statement is utter crap. ALL the drivers there have acheived something special, something that all of us would die for.

I would say that Lewis has achieved, international fame, vast wealth and the recognition and respect of his peers, in the last three years, to start with. The fact that the McLaren was the best car of the season is pretty irrelevant, as you do not get to win the WDC without the best or second best car of the pack. It doesn't happen.

Edit, by the way, I am far from being a Hamilton fanboy, I just don't like to let people get away with talking ****.

Edited by Tsarwash, 08 March 2011 - 13:24.

[HopkinsonF1]

What has he Achieved so far? Despite his WDC I would say nothing.

He's the only driver on the grid to have taken pole positions and victories in every season in which he's competed. He's also beaten two WDC team-mates. There aren't a great many other ways to measure a driver's performance.

He might be a good overtaker. But looking at his cars anybody would be a good overtaker.

At any point in Formula 1, there will be at least one other person on the grid with the same car as Hamilton. Has any of them, over the past 4 years, been as good as Hamilton at overtaking? No.

But what happenes to him if he is under pressure. Well he goes out and crashes, does stupid mistakes and so on.

There is some truth in this.

Has Hamilton ever shown how good he is with bad material. No because he alsways had a McLaren.

Australia 2009. Liegate aside, he dragged a dog of a car onto the podium.

Vettel is on his way to become the dominante driver of this decade. I think like Schumacher he is the start of a new kind of driver generation...

Again, I suspect you might be right about that. But, as good as Vettel is, a lot of the credit for any domination would have to go to Adrian Newey.

Many here say he cant overtake but opposite to Hamilton he has had a few races with a slow Torro Rosso (in which he still wone a race) and since then a renault engine with a lack of Horsepower. So he was never really able to set up easy overtaking manouvers.

At Spa, Istanbul and Silverstone this year Vettel made some unforgettably bad attempts at passing. He made more botched overtaking attempts in Spa alone than Hamilton did in a season.

So let the bashing begin

No bashing. Just facts.

Edited by HopkinsonF1, 08 March 2011 - 13:39.

[trogggy]

Many here say he (Vettel) cant overtake but opposite to Hamilton he has had a few races with a slow Torro Rosso (in which he still wone a race) and since then a renault engine with a lack of Horsepower. So he was never really able to set up easy overtaking manouvers.

Sebastian Bourdais put that 'slow' Toro Rosso into 4th place on the grid when Vettel won.

How slow do you think it was exactly?

[tifosiMac]

But since I am in an Englisch speaking Forum I am sure that all the Hamilton Fanboys now will start bashing me bla bla bla
So let the bashing begin

I'm not going to bash you. I just don't agree with you and I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

I think Alonso's history has been flattered by two years of having the inertia dampener (his "strange hard turn in" phase), and Lewis' artificially hindered by Alonso's machinations at McLaren. Take that out, and Lewis comes out clearly ahead.

<g>

/ nomex on

[HoldenRT]

Alonso is doing pretty well considering it's an English forum.

I would say there is no clear #1. The last few years have shown how unpredictable F1 can be. I thought in 2005-2006 Alonso was a clear #1 but since then it's not so clear.

However if you picked either Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton you've picked one of the 3. It's just that the order of these can easily be interchangable.

And all of that lies in your biases and personal preferences. ie.. who you are a fanboy of. We all know James's Allen or that bald Spanish guy's (Labatto?) preference. Schumacher would say Vettel is the best.

The other thing is the difference between being the best and being the 5th best is tiny. So spending hours and hours arguing over tiny fractions is futile and on that bombshell, I bid adieu.

[F1EC]

The other thing is the difference between being the best and being the 5th best is tiny. So spending hours and hours arguing over tiny fractions is futile and on that bombshell, I bid adieu.

Ah, but if we took away all the futile arguments from this forum, there wouldn't be a lot left would there

[Risil]

I think Alonso's history has been flattered by two years of having the inertia dampener (his "strange hard turn in" phase), and Lewis' artificially hindered by Alonso's machinations at McLaren. Take that out, and Lewis comes out clearly ahead.

Interesting. But four wins with Mclaren, five wins with Ferrari, and an utterly unexpected victory with Renault in that surreal Fuji race in 2008 surely demonstrates that his speed was considerable even without a particularly advantageous handling quirk. It tends to be the best drivers who take full advantage of their machinery's unusual characteristics, and in 2005 and the first half of 2006 Alonso certainly took full advantage. If we're talking about direct comparisons between Hamilton and Alonso though, that's another question. Thankfully -- barring any problems -- we'll have a few more years of seeing them race together. Ever since the unpleasantness in 2007 there's been a peculiar spark whenever they've been together on track.

[revlec]

I think Alonso's history has been flattered by two years of having the inertia dampener (his "strange hard turn in" phase), and Lewis' artificially hindered by Alonso's machinations at McLaren. Take that out, and Lewis comes out clearly ahead.

<g>

/ nomex on

Well said...
i just can not understand why the FIA didn't take action in the 2005 since it was clearly an illegal device according to the technical regulations on suspension elements..
The DDD(in 2009) was an interpretation of the regulations, but the Mass Damper was just illegal..

Edited by revlec, 08 March 2011 - 14:42.

[undersquare]

Well said...
i just can not understand why the FIA didn't take action in the 2005 since it was clearly an illegal device according to the technical regulations on suspension elements..
The DDD(in 2009) was an interpretation of the regulations, but the Mass Damper was just illegal..

Well a mass damper applies a load to the wheels...

[HopkinsonF1]

Despite my earlier post defending Hamilton, I feel Alonso is probably the better overall driver. But Hamilton, I maintain, edges him on ultimate speed and excitement.

[revlec]

Well a mass damper applies a load to the wheels...

- a Mass Damper is not part of suspension like the J-Damper or inerter... so its travel is not a consequence of (only)interaction between Wheel and road, but from the change of vertical orientation..
to make it clear, if we weld the wishbones of the car equiped with the MD, whenever the car will hit a curb or change vertical position, the Mass Damper will move unlike the McLaren J-Damper or Ferrari inerter.. so actually the "load" you are refering to, will be a difference(or sum) and not some "little" compliances accepted by the regulations concerning some moving parts on the car..


what i'm trying to say is that even if the wheels don't touch the ground, the Mass damper can still move if you change the orientation of the car...


anyway we are OT

Edited by revlec, 08 March 2011 - 15:28.

[undersquare]

- a Mass Damper is not part of suspension like the J-Damper or inerter... so its travel is not a consequence of (only)interaction between Wheel and road, but from the change of vertical orientation..
to make it clear, if we weld the wishbones of the car equiped with the MD, whenever the car will hit a curb or change vertical position, the Mass Damper will move unlike the McLaren J-Damper or Ferrari inerter.. so actually the "load" you are refering to, will be a difference(or sum) and not some "little" compliances accepted by the regulations concerning some moving parts on the car..

what i'm trying to say is that even if the wheels doesn't touch the ground, the Mass damper can still move if you change the orientation of the car...

anyway we are OT

Yeah I know . I just think there was scope for the FIA to allow the mass damper, as they did to start with, since that suspension rule you quoted (but disappeared?) can work in both directions: clearly the car exerts a force on the wheel - every force etc and really the MD just introduced a time lag; another badly drafted FIA rule, though it was aimed at active suspension of course not a storage device.

Anyway the Renault told us Fernando was faster than Fisi, by 0.3s according to Symonds, after that it gets difficult. And difficult to separate the loss of the MD from any tightening up by its driver.

[keeppushingurep1]

best driver?

[FlatOverCrest]

best driver?

Didnt he have full wets and many of the others on Inters?

[keeppushingurep1]

Didnt he have full wets and many of the others on Inters?

Same tyres! quite impressive huh?!