208 replies to this topic

[D.M.N.]

I suspect the following will be of interest to some:

BBC Four - 27th March
20:00 - Plus ca change: Formula One's 60th Anniversary
21:00 - Grand Prix: The Killer Years

http://uk-tv-guide.c...ge/Documentary/
http://uk-tv-guide.c... Prix/Motoring/

Both are being promoted as 'New Episode', so I suspect these two haven't been on TV before. Keep an eye on the above two links as more info will put on there in the next day or two.

[Vitesse2]

Well, neither title inspires confidence ...

[kayemod]

Well, neither title inspires confidence ...

Indeed, and I think the second one is the product of the same outfit that were responsible for the 1955 Le Mans piece. Many of us hated that one, but it apparently won some awards, so much for TNF's opinion.

Edit, one word changed in respectful acquiescence to an opinion expressed later in this thread, though I still think there was more bad than good about that 1955 prog.

Edited by kayemod, 16 March 2011 - 16:06.

[RTH]

Has to be good news, an evening of archive motor racing film on BBC4, lets hope it is some new programming.

[Coral]

Well I liked the 1955 one, so I'm looking forward to this.

[David Beard]

See also this thread?

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=144135

[D.M.N.]

See also this thread?

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=144135

Apologies, did not see that thread. Merge if necessary.

(not sure if the 8pm one is a repeat, or whether that one is new as well, it say it is new, so I presume it is)

[Allen Brown]

I liked the 1955 film as well. When was TNF's collective opinion agreed? I must have been out that day.

[Patrick Mark]

'Plus Ca Change' is indeed a new film, produced by Mark Stewart Productions at the Bahrain Grand Prix in 2010:

Formula 1’s 60th Anniversary: Plus Ça Change
The 60th anniversary of Formula 1 is celebrated by a unique gathering of eighteen World Champions at the season-opening Grand Prix of 2010. Bahrain’s ultra-modern desert circuit is a world away from the post-war austerity of F1’s first ever race at Silverstone in 1950; and yet, as legends such as Jackie Stewart, Michael Schumacher, Nigel Mansell and Lewis Hamilton share their racing experiences, it seems that some things never change.

[mscheeres]

'Plus Ca Change' is indeed a new film, produced by Mark Stewart Productions at the Bahrain Grand Prix in 2010:

Formula 1’s 60th Anniversary: Plus Ça Change
The 60th anniversary of Formula 1 is celebrated by a unique gathering of eighteen World Champions at the season-opening Grand Prix of 2010. Bahrain’s ultra-modern desert circuit is a world away from the post-war austerity of F1’s first ever race at Silverstone in 1950; and yet, as legends such as Jackie Stewart, Michael Schumacher, Nigel Mansell and Lewis Hamilton share their racing experiences, it seems that some things never change.

Would that be the film with driver interviews and the photo with a lot of world champions? That was shown on belgian tv months ago and was named '60 jaar Formule 1'.

I wonder if this is the same thing or something else.

[Patrick Mark]

/I wonder if this is the same thing or something else./

Yes, it's that film: this will be its first broadcast in UK.

[Gary C]

'Well, neither title inspires confidence ...'
Blimey, give them a chance. I seem to remember when the Le mans 55 programme was first mentioned everyone jumped on it, but then when they saw it, quite a few said they enjoyed it.

[chdphd]

'Plus Ca Change' is indeed a new film, produced by Mark Stewart Productions at the Bahrain Grand Prix in 2010:

Formula 1’s 60th Anniversary: Plus Ça Change
The 60th anniversary of Formula 1 is celebrated by a unique gathering of eighteen World Champions at the season-opening Grand Prix of 2010. Bahrain’s ultra-modern desert circuit is a world away from the post-war austerity of F1’s first ever race at Silverstone in 1950; and yet, as legends such as Jackie Stewart, Michael Schumacher, Nigel Mansell and Lewis Hamilton share their racing experiences, it seems that some things never change.

That sounds suspiciously like one of the extras on the 2010 review DVD.

[Vitesse2]

'Well, neither title inspires confidence ...'
Blimey, give them a chance. I seem to remember when the Le mans 55 programme was first mentioned everyone jumped on it, but then when they saw it, quite a few said they enjoyed it.

I'm perfectly prepared to give them a chance, Gary, but I'm afraid Patrick has already confirmed one of my expectations. "Formula 1" did not start in 1950.

[Gary C]

Just bumping this for next Sunday evening.

[bradbury west]

Bumping as it was 2 pages down
Roger Lund

[arttidesco]

Last week I attended a tv documentary pitching workshop where documentary commissioners from two British stations were present, when asked what their dream documentary proposal would look like one was quite unequivocal 'My dream documentary proposal is going to deliver 5 million viewers' so perhaps it is understandable we get titles like Grand Prix: The Killer Years.

I am working on a youtube documentary that aims to redress the balance with a genuinely fascinating story, the tv folks were most encouraging about this project, fingers crossed once the youtube version is finished I might be able to get the necessary access to the main participants and make a riveting Formula One documentary for television that is not centred on world champions or death but rather celebrates an engineering feat financed with little more than beer money.

[Auroraf1]

I suspect the following will be of interest to some:

BBC Four - 27th March
20:00 - Plus ca change: Formula One's 60th Anniversary

What a load of tripe!

[man]

It really was terrible. Though I suppose we should remember who the target audience is.

[ryan86]

The first one wasn't great. Perhaps it's a case of watching a documentary with too great a knowledge, and also one that I didn't think seemed to have any kind of coherent story to tell.

The second one was better, though again whilst I'm not as knowledgable as those that actually lived through that era, I think I have a good if slightly statistical knolwedge of the era covered, but again I can't say I learned anything particularly new, but at least it seemed to have a story to tell, even if that story was pretty crude. However there was stories to tell and they were told. It seemed to randomly stop as well. I guess there's some debate to have over where one would end "The Killer Years", but Williamson seemed a rather random place to end.

Edited by ryan86, 27 March 2011 - 21:09.

[Vitesse2]

I suspect the following will be of interest to some:

BBC Four - 27th March

21:00 - Grand Prix: The Killer Years

Despite the rather lurid title, a very good and thought-provoking programme. There were a few minor errors and an inexplicable bit of film of Indy '66: I could have done without the shots of Bandini too, but perhaps that's just me.

[BP1]

Despite the rather lurid title, a very good and thought-provoking programme. There were a few minor errors and an inexplicable bit of film of Indy '66: I could have done without the shots of Bandini too, but perhaps that's just me.

Indeed that Bandini shot not really needed, my biggest gripe especially with programme one was the narrator.What could have been a really upbeat programme was so flat....

[Vitesse2]

I guess there's some debate to have over where one would end "The Killer Years", but Williamson seemed a rather random place to end.

Well, as some us have successfully avoided ever seeing the demise of Tom Pryce, I think Zandvoort 73 was as good as any. It was also rather poignant that one of the drivers in the closing sequence (although never mentioned by name in the programme) was Francois Cevert.

[Sharman]

Plus ca Change ..faux trendy and pretentious crap Patrick Mark missed it.

Edited by Sharman, 27 March 2011 - 21:14.

[cpbell]

What a load of tripe!

I wouldn't go quite that far...but it was poor. It seemed to be to be too "arty", with far too much time taken-up with slow-motion clips of 2010 cars lumbering through those horrid 2nd gear squirt-and-go corners at Bahrain, and too little time taken on the history. Actually, though I was very wary of it, the following programme on Grand Prix safety was a pleasant surprise to me. I didn't appreciate seeing poor Bandini sitting in the remains of that Ferrari at Monaco, but it was a most pleasant surprise to see Ninia Rindt looking so well and...content. Beltoise seemed a bit...indifferent (though he, of course, has had to shoulder opprobrium for the loss of Ignacio Giunti), but it was otherwise tastefully handled, I felt.

Just one claim jumped out at me, however; it was stated that Jimmy was thrown from the cockpit of the Lotus at Hockenheim that awful day in April '68; however, this is a claim I have never previously heard or read. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Poignant to see Christopher Hilton speaking, given that it couldn't have been recorded long before his untimely passing. I was also greatly moved by the words of Jimmy's mechanic from that Hockenheim event. Had he carried with him a sense of guilt or personal responsibility for what happened, I wonder? I hope not.

Edited by cpbell, 27 March 2011 - 21:20.

[ryan86]

I never realised Hilton was that old, for some reason I'd always imagined to have been slightly younger, partly because of the 90's focus on his books I guess.

Edited by ryan86, 27 March 2011 - 22:02.

[Lec CRP1]

"The Killer Years" almost seemed like the first part of a two-part documentary. I would have thought that if you're going to show how dangerous Grand Prix racing was in the 60s-70s, you'd have to show how safety got better later on. To end in 1973 with one of the most disgraceful safety and organisation failures in motor racing history is, shall we say, somewhat dramatically unsatisfying.

But it wasn't half as sensational or exploitative as I expected from the title. Indeed, for something called "The Killer Years" it was remarkably restrained. There wasn't a single dead body shown, for example. I've been on YouTube. I know what they could have shown.

(Though I saw the footage of Bandini and thought "Well, they're not going to like that on TNF")

[Vitesse2]

(Though I saw the footage of Bandini and thought "Well, they're not going to like that on TNF")

The shots of the burning car were - IMO - acceptable. But they twice showed a brief clip of his body being removed from the burnt-out car: perhaps you missed that?

[vashlin]

I never realised Hilton was that old, for some reason I'd always imagined to have been slightly younger, partly because of the 90's focus on his books I guess.

I believe Chris had just turned 66 when he passed away last November. Is that old?


Does anyone know if the doc will ever be available for viewing in the U.S.?

LinC

[Lec CRP1]

The shots of the burning car were - IMO - acceptable. But they twice showed a brief clip of his body being removed from the burnt-out car: perhaps you missed that?

Which is what I meant by the forum not liking it.

As far as I know, Bandini died 3 days afterwards in hospital and was alive when extracted from his Ferrari.

[Gary C]

I'm going to reserve judgement on the programmes until tomorrow. BUT...............am I right in thinking I counted at least FIVE TNF members in the end credits of the second programme??

[Mistron]

I just watched 'the killer years' and clearly it was intended to be of interest to the wider public, and as such it would be easy for us to pick faults (a bit like a Readers Digest condensed highlights / low lights of safety in the period)

However, what struck me most was that 'joe public' might draw the conclusion that F1 was safe before the cars went mid engined. The naration very much hinted as much, as though Cooper and Chapman made it dangerous, But the front engined Ferraris and Maseratis had been safe, because they weren't built by the garagistes.

of course we know it's not true, but that's how it came across.

Ah well. sensationalist maybe, but it did have some nice footage, and anything that included the film of Jimmy lapping Oulton can't be all bad.

[AvranaKern]

I don't have enough information about the olden days of Formula 1, so I count on you guys.

Was Colin Chapman that "responsible" from the deaths of Jim Clark and Jochen Rindt? I mean watching document makes me feel angry about him, specially after the remarks of Rindt's wife on Chapman like he was responsible from that incident.

[ryan86]

I believe Chris had just turned 66 when he passed away last November. Is that old?


Does anyone know if the doc will ever be available for viewing in the U.S.?

LinC

I had edited my sentence there because I struggled to word it right, the first itteration sounded "worse". I'd imagined him being in his late 40's, as I said, because the books he released were mainly 90's F1, so compared to that 66 was old.

[Paul Rochdale]

Well for what it's worth, I thoroughly enjoyed both programmes.

[LittleChris]

Thought the 1st one was bland, though nice to see some footage as a remembrance of Ronnie even though he wasn't mentioned by name.

Thought the 2nd one was rather disjointed (though nice to see the tv coverage of Spa 66 !). Not sure why Indy 66 was included plus the way Spa 60 was referred to would make you think that the two drivers who died were both in Loti/Lotuses. Shame really since they seemed to have a good representative selection of interviewees including Jacqueline Beltoise who (I think) was Francois Cevert's sister.

[Vitesse2]

I don't have enough information about the olden days of Formula 1, so I count on you guys.

Was Colin Chapman that "responsible" from the deaths of Jim Clark and Jochen Rindt? I mean watching document makes me feel angry about him, specially after the remarks of Rindt's wife on Chapman like he was responsible from that incident.

There did seem to be something of an anti-Chapman feel about the programme (I wouldn't go so far as to say it was bias though). But perhaps that was just because it concentrated very much on the deaths of Clark and Rindt, even though (for example) both von Trips and Bandini died in Ferraris. All racing cars were inherently dangerous in that era, but I'll leave it to you to decide whether the fatality rate in Lotuses can be put down totally to Chapman's obsession with lightness - statistically, I'd guess it's just "random scatter" that more drivers died in Lotuses than in (say) Brabhams.

Nina's reaction was understandable, given that Jochen was very likely going to retire at the end of 1970. The "Ecclestone connection" should perhaps not be overlooked either: not an accusation or pot-stirring, just an observation.

[RTH]

Both programmes I thought were most interesting. Enormous amounts of archive footage drawn together from a great many sources, much of which I certainly had not seen before.Very welcome television programmes.
A huge amount of work had gone in to making them, handled I think quite objectively. Standards of circuit safely in that era was appalling low and levels of protection in the cars minimal. Space and safe run off area is crucial. There is still now much that could be done on safety, we have been lucky in recent years, people should not get the idea motor racing is safe now either but thankfully a lot has been done over the last 25years.

[Giraffe]

Looked for the musical credits for the programme & was surprised not to find any.

I think Dave “Beaky” Sims' observations regarding Chapman's attitude to driver replaceability told me more than Nina Rindt's predictable response.

Edited by Giraffe, 28 March 2011 - 07:32.

[SWB]

I found The Killer Years a little bit distasteful and titillatingly gory (like the Le Mans '55 prog), to the point halfway through I wondered if the BBC would broadcast a programme on death and destruction in the same way from other dangerous sports, like horse racing? But there were some great snippets of footage amongst it all and its nevertheless a story that needs to be told, ...in some way or other.

Steve

[RS250]

I don't wish to sound naive, but why Bahrain for the 'celebration'?
Surely Silverstone would have been far more appropriate a few months later or would that be just too much for Bernie to countenance?
I was fearing the worst with 'The Killer Years' but I thought it was generally pretty good - anything with David Tremayne contributing will get my vote - but I must say I found Emersons facelift a bit gory.....

[Giraffe]

I don't wish to sound naive, but why Bahrain for the 'celebration'?
Surely Silverstone would have been far more appropriate a few months later or would that be just too much for Bernie to countenance?
I was fearing the worst with 'The Killer Years' but I thought it was generally pretty good - anything with David Tremayne contributing will get my vote - but I must say I found Emersons facelift a bit gory.....

More money available in Bahrain for such a jaunt, better climate, better hotels & far less hassle for the celeb drivers (no-one would know any of them in Bahrain). Things have changed there since, of course....
I never thought Emmo was particularily blessed in the good looks department, and presumed it was just this combined with the ageing process to be honest.

Edited by Giraffe, 28 March 2011 - 08:17.

[Slurp1955]

Both programmes I thought were most interesting. Enormous amounts of archive footage drawn together from a great many sources, much of which I certainly had not seen before.Very welcome television programmes.
A huge amount of work had gone in to making them, handled I think quite objectively. Standards of circuit safely in that era was appalling low and levels of protection in the cars minimal. Space and safe run off area is crucial. There is still now much that could be done on safety, we have been lucky in recent years, people should not get the idea motor racing is safe now either but thankfully a lot has been done over the last 25years.

Absolutely agree Richard, though I should declare a slight bias toward "Plus ca change" as I was lucky enough to be at the Bahrain event last year, so the footage both old and new brought back the memories. JohnP

[man]

Making of the doc. Taken from http://www.broadcast...5025210.article

John Matthews, producer of BBC4’s Grand Prix: The Killer Years, relives conducting 20 hours of interviews in three languages across six countries in just 10 days.

Making Bigger Picture’s Grand Prix, The Killer Years for BBC4 was a genuine adventure and an intense experience that will stay with us for the rest of our lives.

We told the story of the most lethal period in Grand Prix history in one concentrated trip, and it does not get better than travelling around Europe meeting high achieving people and listening to their astonishing stories – except maybe skiing deep snow off piste.

I’m into getting my hands dirty – sitting at a desk, shouting at answerphones and pressing ‘send e-mail’ will never appeal to me. But telling fantastic stories well most certainly does.

It all comes down to the research. There is so much information out there, where to start? Everywhere. Every bloody book and every expert. Then you realise what you can get access to and what’s only a dream. Only after a mass of reading and talking are you ever going to get those amazing conversations on camera.

Rich Heap (co-producer) and I had a very thorough plan of the film, drawn up in HB pencil on huge sheets of thick cartridge paper. We carefully drew up the most important scenes and who would best tell that part of the story, rubbing out the dull bits.

We then made sure we booked everyone on the list. By the time we left the Pennines, every single person was confirmed, bar one lady, Mrs Rindt, who was not sure she wanted to go ahead. She thought it would be a very painful subject to re-visit – and was worried she would look wrinkly, so we took a big diffuser, just in case.

The journey begins

Our first interview was in Norfolk, an important story about the final moments of a racing driver, witnessed by the last person to speak to him. We lit his house in his absence as he flew in from the USA. He was late. We spend two hours listening to a story of him carrying massive guilt around for most of his life, through no fault of his own, then dashed for the ferry to make another interview, in Dutch, the following morning north of Amsterdam.

After a windblown interview on a gigantic sand dune and a gritty picnic by the North Sea, we sped along lethal Belgian autoroutes to a dark museum in Spa, some six hours away, to meet an important old man with a very big story to tell – this time in Flemish.

Having got lost we had driven more than eight hours to meet Monsieur Bovy only to hear ‘he does not work in the afternoons… he can only be here in two days’. Great. Who planned that bloody interview? It turned out he was on dialysis but was too proud to say so on the phone.

However we had to get going as we had another interview to do in central Brussels the next morning and another in the middle of Paris the day after, with two fascinating and famous Grand Prix drivers.

By then we had already done 2,000 miles and it was only day three.

We then did our slow journey back up that long dreary road to Spa for the second time. Having to do things twice is the worst thing. This was the dullest drive I have ever done in my life. After much zigging and zagging, we spent two informative hours with the former boss of the dangerous Spa racetrack who had laughed in the face of Jackie Stewart 35 years before.

His story was fascinating, albeit in hard accented Belgio-French. He told us how he had to body-bag two drivers who were killed on his watch and another two almost died. I constantly said ‘doucement, doucement, slowly slowly’ so that my rusty farmhouse French could get up to speed.

I knew immediately that this interview would be one of the most critical scenes in our film. His story was the key turning point in the history of Formula 1.

The final interview

For several months I had been desperately seeking permission to interview Nina, the wife of Jochen Rindt, the World Champion from the early 70s who died in a controversial and terrifying accident at the Monza Grand Prix in Italy

She had been interviewed before but it was badly done, and it was important to hear her devastating story of losing her racing husband in this period.

Men have a certain blinkered, sometimes macho and often skewed take on things – women who have suffered have a habit of telling you as it is. So far we had no women, and these were the people left to deal with the mess created by this callous sport.

After a gruelling eight hour drive and a tortuous two hour interview in a foreign language (with a man who was quite deaf), I got a call.

It was Mrs Rindt: “I can do the interview tomorrow morning at 10am. Come on down.”.

Great – the only problem was we were charging our batteries in an Ardennes forest at five in the evening and she was a twelve hour drive away, in Geneva, Switzerland.

We grudgingly packed for what seemed the hundredth time and headed back down another very long road, Tom Petty’s Mary Jane’s Last Dance on the stereo for the 40th time. We were so numb we passed through the whole of Luxembourg without even noticing.

Mrs Rindt’s interview in Switzerland was delicate, moving and profoundly sad, and told the other side of a very unglamorous and lethal world.

This easy-going and gentle lady told how her life was turned upside down and how she relied on tranquilisers after the sudden and quite unnecessary death of her husband.

At this point we hit the wall. We had not stopped in five days flat. So we took a ride on a meticulously restored Edwardian steamboat across Lac Leman to unwind.

The mirrored lake was enveloped in mist so sadly we could not see those majestic mountains surrounding it that had inspired Mary Shelly to write Frankenstein over a hundred years before. We then set off on the 1,500 mile return journey back to Blighty to begin our second week of England interviews in the south of England.

All in all we travelled 4,500 miles in just ten days. But in that intense frenzy of activity we had shot the entire film, having in the can (well, three hard drives) more than twenty hours of intimate detail of the most lethal period in Grand Prix history. And because we did it all back to back – all the stories were focussed on the same themes, fresh in our minds every day making it all the more coherent and together.

A few weeks later, as we began editing, not only could we recount what was said by whom instantly because we had been involved in the whole process but memories of that fantastic trip around Europe came flooding back.

Would I do it any other way? No. We did not stand in an airport security queue once and it was intense, and bloody good fun.

[Slurp1955]

Looked for the musical credits for the programme & was surprised not to find any.

Nick Drake was in there somewhere, like van Gogh still finding an audience years after an early demise. JohnP

[Slurp1955]

I don't wish to sound naive, but why Bahrain for the 'celebration'?
Surely Silverstone would have been far more appropriate a few months later or would that be just too much for Bernie to countenance?

You would need to see a copy of Bernie's bank statements before and after both events. Bahrain was paying at least three times as much, and a premium for being the season opener. JohnP

[Stephen W]

Despite the rather lurid title, a very good and thought-provoking programme. There were a few minor errors and an inexplicable bit of film of Indy '66: I could have done without the shots of Bandini too, but perhaps that's just me.

Minor errors! Grand Prix: The Killer Years was riddled with errors and misplaced footage. Not only Indianapolis footage but also footage from F2 races, F3 races and the film GP, as well as a still shot from the same film. Also there were several inaccuracies with respect to the drivers alledgedly killed in Grand Prix - given the title of the programme I was somewhat bemused by their inclusion!

Thought the 1st one was bland, though nice to see some footage as a remembrance of Ronnie even though he wasn't mentioned by name.

F1's 60th Anniversary: Plus Ca Change was a bit bland. It also repeated several bits of footage (as if doing so re-inforced the statement I assume). All in all not too bad an effort. It would have ben nice to have a bit of proper commentary on the GP Champions in their cars but I guess that might have added to the cost of making the programme!

[Hse289]

I enjoyed the second programme and found it very interesting and thought provoking. Jackie Stewart really is a saint for trying to help regarding safety. It was upsetting to see poor Bandini though.
Giraffe, it was nice to hear two of my all time favourite singers too, Nick Drake-Three Hours and Tim Buckley - Once i was.

[hogstar]

The Killer Years was a decent effort, though it least should have been an extra 30 minutes longer, or as suggested here earlier a two parter. Stopping at 1973 with the appalling death of Roger Williamson was several years too early and gave a misleading impression things that this tragedy changed things improved from then on - they didn't for quite some time. There were still several deaths after this point which were caused by mishandling of F1 [Koenigg, Pryce, Peterson etc], which was pretty much a cowboy operation until the early 1980's which is where this documentary should of stopped.

Colin Chapman got a hard ride and some viewers may think it was biased against him and Lotus, but I think on the whole they got the balance right. I felt so sorry for 'Beaky' Sims'. Looking at him you would think Clarks accident was last week, as opposed to over 40 years ago. I also thought David Tremayne was excellent and added gravitas to the documentary.

The previous feature was PR fluff which was hard to get excited about!

[Giraffe]

Nick Drake was in there somewhere, like van Gogh still finding an audience years after an early demise. JohnP

That's the reason I was looking John as I thought I recognised his music and eerily, I stumbled across his grave yesterday whilst visiting Mike Hailwood's, a racer who the world's most dangerous tracks spared but the road didn't.


By giraffe138 at 2011-03-28

By giraffe138 at 2011-03-28