79 replies to this topic

[Doughnut King]

Unfortunately it appears that a driver called Gustavo Sondermann has died after a large crash at the Interlagos circuit.

[Chubby_Deuce]

Same part of the circuit as the Rafael Sperafico crash.

[EpicBrainFade]

Same part of the circuit as the Rafael Sperafico crash.

This was uploaded a few minutes ago...

...RIP Gustavo Sondermann.

Edited by EpicBrainFade, 03 April 2011 - 22:17.

[Andy865]

Rest In Peace Gustavo

Always terrible to hear of a death in racing. Heartening that it happens so infrequently.

[molive]

29yo driver Gustavo Sondermann has died of brain damage after a heavy shunt today in a Copa Montana race in Interlagos.



Video of the accident here

The track was really wet and visibility was awful but a lot of people are blaming the Café bend. It is indeed a very dangerous spot, which is called "the Brazilian Tamburello".
03 years ago Rafael Sperafico died in the same spot, and this year an amateur died there during a motorcycle track-day.

Its being said that the Motorcycle Federation deemed the Café too dangerous when they were evaluating Interlagos to host a MotoGP race.

Anyway, its always a sad moment when a driver dies.

RIP Gustavo.

[dutra]

Man, this is so sad... So sad...

RIP Gustavo

2 months ago the motorcycle driver João Lisboa died there too. Same place Webber and Alonso crashed in 03. They HAVE to do something about it! FAST!

On a sad coincidence, Gustavo was Sperafico's teammate in 2007...

[Disgrace]

Always sad to see a driver killed. RIP.

One must be careful not to kneejerk to the point of neutering the track. Imola was never the same.

[VicR]

Man, this is so sad... So sad...

RIP Gustavo

2 months ago the motorcycle driver João Lisboa died there too. Same place Webber and Alonso crashed in 03. They HAVE to do something about it! FAST!

On a sad coincidence, Gustavo was Sperafico's teammate in 2007...

Do what?

[dutra]

Do what?

A chicane, a new appex, move the wall, blow the damn thing! ANYTHING!

[Doughnut King]

Do what?

The only thing I can see them doing that would possibly improve the situation is removing some the grandstands and widening the circuit outwards. Looking at an map shows how little room the circuit has to play with though.

[Les]

Always sad to see a driver killed. RIP.

One must be careful not to kneejerk to the point of neutering the track. Imola was never the same.

Tragic news always horrible to hear of a driver dying.

I have to say though I agree with you 100%

[ryan86]

Since all we can see in this accident is spray, I can't really judge how it all happened, but would a SAFER barrier maybe work here, at least in car races. Obviously the lie of the land means cars will eventually want to make their way down to the inside of the track, but in the Sperafico incident, the car hits the tyres, almost stops dead and bounces back onto the track, whereas if the tyre barrier was not there he may have even continued in the race,

[ktsayshi]

Interlagos had SAFER barriers installed at Subida dos Boxes last year.

It's horrible that this happened. RIP Gustavo.

[ryan86]

Interlagos had SAFER barriers installed at Subida dos Boxes last year.

It's horrible that this happened. RIP Gustavo.

Ah, yes, just watched a clip of last years GP, and they've taken away that tyre barrier I was talking about.

[Andrew Hope]

RIP.

On a related note, is it just me, or is the attitude that sections of track need to be changed every time a driver has a fatal accident on a particular stretch of the circuit redundant to the point of being a little embarrassing? That we need to wait for people to die before changing a part of a track? That part of Interlagos is no more dangerous now than it was 24 hours ago, so it's either too unsafe to race at and the race never should have taken place, or it's safe enough to race, and that unfortunate accidents like this simply happen from time to time in racing (which they do).

Not trying to be disrespectful, I just think it's an interesting debate.

[SPBHM]

what about the car safety?
I was watching the race live on TV.. very sad... but sometimes it happens... quite unfortunate, RIP.

[midgrid]

Same part of the circuit as the Rafael Sperafico crash.

I've seen it reported that Sondermann was Sperafico's team-mate at the time. R.I.P. Gustavo.

[dutra]

Things change. Speed change, cars change, references change. Tamburello was on Imola for how long? Piquet and Berger were very lucky. But Senna... After the redesign of the track that spot today is almost harmless. I want that for Interlagos too. Before the 100th death...

[froggy22]

RIP.

On a related note, is it just me, or is the attitude that sections of track need to be changed every time a driver has a fatal accident on a particular stretch of the circuit redundant to the point of being a little embarrassing? That we need to wait for people to die before changing a part of a track? That part of Interlagos is no more dangerous now than it was 24 hours ago, so it's either too unsafe to race at and the race never should have taken place, or it's safe enough to race, and that unfortunate accidents like this simply happen from time to time in racing (which they do).

Not trying to be disrespectful, I just think it's an interesting debate.

kneejerk reactions, thats all. i dont think there is anything wrong with Interlagos, or think the track contributed anything to that crash.

side impact crashes can occur at any time on any track, doesnt have to be a car bouncing off a wall into traffic, it could just be a car getting tapped round and left vulnerable to getting hit.

RIP

[Dispenser89]

Very sad news.

RIP

[Slyder]

Easiest solution would be move the wall further back. It's just too close.

Putting a chicane is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Heck, there's already one there, just not used.

[SPBHM]

Easiest solution would be move the wall further back. It's just too close.

Putting a chicane is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Heck, there's already one there, just not used.

it's not clear how much of a factor was the wall in this crash, the car was just spinning in front of the others after a contact with another car, he didn't hit the wall directly I think.

[dutra]

Even putting this accident aside it still a dangerous place for a wall that close... As Slyder said, there's a chicane there, used years ago for motorcycles races but even for those races they're not using it anymore.

Edited by dutra, 03 April 2011 - 23:36.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Those Brazilian stock cars sure don't seem to take the t-bone hits very well. It's a weak point in any car, but these cars seem to completely disintegrate in such accidents.

[ktsayshi]

it's not clear how much of a factor was the wall in this crash, the car was just spinning in front of the others after a contact with another car, he didn't hit the wall directly I think.

It was a multi-car wreck, and apparently Sondermann's car was T-boned multiple times. I think there's no such thing as too much track safety, especially with technology like SAFER that can dissipate a huge amount of kinetic energy while allowing fast corners to retain much if not all of their integrity - but this tragedy does look as if it was a horrifying freak occurrence.

[Laffite]

Track conditions were very poor, typical rain soaked Interlagos (remember when the F1 GP used to be held in early autumn).

Organisation's fault, in my opinion, a safety car was needed by that time, as 2010 Korea GP.

[Slyder]

it's not clear how much of a factor was the wall in this crash, the car was just spinning in front of the others after a contact with another car, he didn't hit the wall directly I think.

Problem is the tire wall is just too close to the track, just a few feet. Just like with Rafa's crash, the car hit the tires and just bounced back right on to traffic, when that happens, there's just no chance, especially with the rest of the pack coming at you... in the rain.

Rosberg also crashed there remember, and was also hurled into the track by the tires. So, I think that tire wall needs to be moved back, or put a SAFER barrier there at the very least.

[molive]

RIP.

On a related note, is it just me, or is the attitude that sections of track need to be changed every time a driver has a fatal accident on a particular stretch of the circuit redundant to the point of being a little embarrassing? That we need to wait for people to die before changing a part of a track? That part of Interlagos is no more dangerous now than it was 24 hours ago, so it's either too unsafe to race at and the race never should have taken place, or it's safe enough to race, and that unfortunate accidents like this simply happen from time to time in racing (which they do).

Not trying to be disrespectful, I just think it's an interesting debate.

Looks like its only unsafe for certain type of cars and the bikes. They used an S there for the bikes.
For F1 its actually a flat-out bend, not really a corner.

[Disgrace]

Looks like its only unsafe for certain type of cars and the bikes.

That, or the certain types of cars and bikes are less safe than others?

[Myrvold]

I can't see that the track is too unsafe at that point of the track, this could've happended anywhere on any track.

The special with this, was I didn't feel like going into the forum now, when I clicked I imagined it was going to say "RIP *a drivers name*". I wish I didn't click on the forum.

Edited by Myrvold, 04 April 2011 - 01:49.

[PLAYLIFE]

I haven't seen this accident yet as I'm at work.

But in general, putting tyre barriers along a very fast section close to the edge of the circuit is worse than just having a concrete barrier.
The tyre barriers catch the cars and flick them around and sometimes back onto the track especially if they are very close to the circuit edge as is the case at Interlagos. At least with concrete barriers the car will hit and more likely skid along it (predicting that that car hits at an acute angle - it's not normal to expect a car to hit at a sharp angle along a fast section even though it is curved there).

Obviously it's a curved straight at Interlagos which throws up other challenges.

But yes, a SAFER barrier is probably the best option - certainly not a tyre barrier.

[ktsayshi]

^^^ The SAFER barriers at Martinsville were certainly one big reason why Truex and Kahne walked away from a huge red-flag impact at today's Sprint Cup race. They perform pretty much exactly as advertised.

Edited by ktsayshi, 04 April 2011 - 01:56.

[dutra]

There's a lot to change. The position of the driver inside the car is number one. They're too far from the original seat position. It's worse on wet. Interlagos only is watched near the F1 race. The rest of the year the circuit have poor maintenance. The confederation is rich! Drivers and teams pay A LOT of money for nothing.
Brazil is still in the 70's on racing and everything around it.

[AlexS]

Accident seems to have happened by other or others cars crash into him, did he spun?. That can happen in every circuit.

Condolences.

[Lotusseven]

So sad news...RIP Gustavo Sondermann.

[Coral]

Very sad news.

RIP Gustavo.

[THE "driverider"]

RIP Gustavo

[JohnnyWoodcock]

Always sad to see a driver pass away but the stuff of needing to change the track or that it is too dangerous is a knee jerk reaction IMHO, his death was caused by being t boned in very bad visibility and it could have happened anywhere on the circuit or any other circuit.

Too many challenging corners have been butchered or widened in the name of safety (Tamburello, Eau Rouge, Wall of champions, 130R to name but a few) and it would be a shame to see another one go in the name of blame culture or knee jerk reactions.

There is meant to be an element of danger in motorsports

[August]

RIP Gustavo

Those Brazilian stock cars sure don't seem to take the t-bone hits very well. It's a weak point in any car, but these cars seem to completely disintegrate in such accidents.

That's an area that should be improved. Also, SAFER barrier should be installed in that curve. Crashing into that barrier isn't dangerous in itself but it can have dangerous consuquenses as we saw. And quite surprising motorbikes don't use the chicane. For them that seems a dangerous place. That place is oval-like, and motorbikes don't race on ovals. One option would also be to remove some grandstands and make larger runoff, but that would mean less seating capacity, so I don't know how willing would the circuit owners be to do that.

[August]

There is meant to be an element of danger in motorsports

And that element stays no matter how safe a circuit you make. Abu Dhabi is meant to be on of the safest circuits but last year Schuey was about 20 cm away from a terrible accident.

[JohnnyWoodcock]

RIP Gustavo



That's an area that should be improved. Also, SAFER barrier should be installed in that curve. Crashing into that barrier isn't dangerous in itself but it can have dangerous consuquenses as we saw. And quite surprising motorbikes don't use the chicane. For them that seems a dangerous place. That place is oval-like, and motorbikes don't race on ovals. One option would also be to remove some grandstands and make larger runoff, but that would mean less seating capacity, so I don't know how willing would the circuit owners be to do that.

It was not the impact with the barrier that caused his fatal injuries it was being t boned by more than 1 competitor, the force of that causing presumably a basular skull fracture is what killed him and that freak accident could have happened anywhere on the circuit.

[JohnnyWoodcock]

And that element stays no matter how safe a circuit you make. Abu Dhabi is meant to be on of the safest circuits but last year Schuey was about 20 cm away from a terrible accident.

Indeed, freak accident, like yesterday, butchering challenging circuits and corners will not prevent a fatal accident which is why I am against changes to circuits.

[August]

It was not the impact with the barrier that caused his fatal injuries it was being t boned by more than 1 competitor, the force of that causing presumably a basular skull fracture is what killed him and that freak accident could have happened anywhere on the circuit.

That's what I meant by the dangerous consequenses of crashing that barrier.

[highdownforce]

Rest in peace, Sondermann.

I've being out all the weekend and have just read the news about it this morning. Again Curva do Café.

IIRC, after Sperafico's death on the same circumstances, the 'S' used for the bikes race would be adopted by the races of stock car light (today Copa Montana, a truck series) and other categories as well. But in 2008, after some tests the tarmac started to crack and the alternative layout was deemed unsafe. For the look of it, the S was never completely repaired since them (please someone correct me if I'm wrong on this), what for me it's insane. The video of the death of João Lisboa despite not showing the accident it self show us his bike destroyed and on flames after hitting the wall.

Drivers have complained about this bend/turn for some time, I remember requests to the federation to move the wall back, to keep softwall in the place, to use the alternative 'S', but nothing has happened, specially for local series.

AFAIK, soft wall was installed for F1, but I believe that this was for F1 only? Is that right?

Also, I'm with SPBHM on this one. Sperafico's accident triggered a revamp in the car design for 2009 in order to make it safer but or it wasn't enough or the design of trucks is miserably outdated. For a category that requires about US$ 340K for operational costs this is even more unacceptable. It sounds suspicious when both accidents happened on the 2nd division series in less than four years between them.

I just hope that something is done, to the cars and to this section of the track. It is not a knee jerk reaction, the whole section have received many complains from different drivers from different categories and have also being the spot of heavy accidents in the past few years. The tubular design of theses cars despite being cheap always reveals itself to be too fragile for the amount of speed and weight carried.

Nothing of this will bring the lives of Sperafico, Sonderman or Lisboa back. All that I ask for is to not have to add another name to this list.


Edit:

It was not the impact with the barrier that caused his fatal injuries it was being t boned by more than 1 competitor, the force of that causing presumably a basular skull fracture is what killed him and that freak accident could have happened anywhere on the circuit.

A part of the concern with the wall position is how it 'sends' the cars back to track after suffering from a already vicious collision.

Edited by highdownforce, 04 April 2011 - 16:26.

[ktsayshi]

A part of the concern with the wall position is how it 'sends' the cars back to track after suffering from a already vicious collision.

This is also why the conversation keeps coming back to SAFER. As long as the existing wall will support the soft-wall system, there is no redesign or reprofiling necessary. The polystyrene in the center dissipates kinetic energy from an impact along the length of the wall and prevents that same energy from catapulting the car back into oncoming traffic.

To answer your other question, highdownforce, I honestly don't know if the existing SAFER barrier at Interlagos is for F1 only.

[SPBHM]

AFAIK the barriers installed for F1 last year are still there...
but as I said, I don't know if the car even hit the wall and bounced back to the track in this crash... he was hit by another car in the his rear left side I think (he was near the left kerb and was hit by a car loosing control going over it I think), and started spinning immediately and was hit by another 2 cars that were following (one destroyed the back end of his truck and the other hit the passenger side I think), the images are not clear enough but I think that he didn't hit the wall before the fatal impact by the other cars, but I can be wrong..

there are many talks in Brazil about what to do, using a chicane that is already there which was built for the Moto GP in 92 I think (but will need some work), since these cars are quite fast and don't have enough downforce, that turn is quite a challenge for some drivers and the chances of something going wrong are considerable.

[midgrid]

I saw a photo in a Brazilian forum which showed that one of Sondermann's rear wet tyres had been mounted the wrong way round; this wouldn't have helped matters.

[highdownforce]

To answer your other question, highdownforce, I honestly don't know if the existing SAFER barrier at Interlagos is for F1 only.

AFAIK the barriers installed for F1 last year are still there...

Interlagos' administration, from Sao Paulo's tourism department confirmed that the soft-wall was in place for the race.

there are many talks in Brazil about what to do, using a chicane that is already there which was built for the Moto GP in 92 I think (but will need some work), since these cars are quite fast and don't have enough downforce, that turn is quite a challenge for some drivers and the chances of something going wrong are considerable.

Maybe the best solution is the simpler one, to re-made the 'S' and use it for tourism and motorcycle series, keeping the original layout for F1 and GT3.

but as I said, I don't know if the car even hit the wall and bounced back to the track in this crash... he was hit by another car in the his rear left side I think (he was near the left kerb and was hit by a car loosing control going over it I think), and started spinning immediately and was hit by another 2 cars that were following (one destroyed the back end of his truck and the other hit the passenger side I think), the images are not clear enough but I think that he didn't hit the wall before the fatal impact by the other cars, but I can be wrong..

That's quite possible, I personally think that he hit the wall, but not with full speed anymore, maybe even it was a side or rear impact. But we both agree that it is almost impossible to see it.
When I'm showing great concern about the wall it self it's more related to bikes and lower categories (Campeonato Paulista de Velocidade) in the circuit.

Anyway, reducing the chances of something going on it is already something that I'd like to see. Even for F1 cars, that is a tough spot to crash (Rosberg 2006, because I've missed this link here).


Edit:

I saw a photo in a Brazilian forum which showed that one of Sondermann's rear wet tyres had been mounted the wrong way round; this wouldn't have helped matters.

I've seeing Ferrari racing with both front tires inverted in F1 (Massa in one of the Schummy years, some says it even better this way), and I believe that a a formula car would be much more sensible to this kind of thing, but it may have played a part in it.

Edited by highdownforce, 04 April 2011 - 22:22.

[Peat]

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/45054.html

Caca Bueno & Luciano Burti speaking up about it.

[tifosiMac]

Even putting this accident aside it still a dangerous place for a wall that close... As Slyder said, there's a chicane there, used years ago for motorcycles races but even for those races they're not using it anymore.

The fact is that part of ther Interlagos track builds up to ther best overtaking spot on the circuit. It would ruin the track IMO to slow the cars down and deprive us of seeing cars overtaking each other in turn one. I am very sorry to hear this chap has been killed but I think car safety needs to be looked at before we turn Interlagos into another Imola.