X beat Y who beat Z, so X is best
#1
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:04
1. A driver 'X' beats driver 'Y' in the same team, this is an absolute statement of their ability.
2. If the drivers were teammates over a number of years, we will consider the total period.
3. If driver 'Y' beats another, 'Z', we have an ultimate guide of this new drivers ability against 'X'.
4. Drivers do not get 'better' or 'worse' throughout their careers.
5. In the unlikely event of a tiebreaker, my word is final.
6. Time or era is no barrier to comparison.
7. Racing series is no barrier to comparison, but for spec series they do not need to be teammates, just same year(s).
8. If you claim that a driver beat another on any basis except FIA standings (or whichever alternative governing body is in place for other racing series), then you need to be clear about the measure employed.
9. Seriously good bullshit results may not be challenged.
We've seen this bullshit plenty of times so you all know how it works, except for the purposes of this thread IT'S TRUE. Points go to the most ridiculous conclusion. Rolley-eyes smiley to anyone who decides to take the thread, or themselves, seriously. Here's an example to start things off;
Nico Rosberg beat Michael Schumacher at Mercedes in 2010/11
Mark Webber beat Nico Rosberg at Williams in 2006
Mark Webber was beaten in F3000 by Justin Wilson
So, Wilson > Webber > Rosberg > Schumacher
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#2
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:08
#3
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:11
woops, too slow
Edited by Wingcommander, 16 August 2011 - 15:11.
#4
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:30
A bullshit-logic concept inspired by some 'insights' I have recently read in one of the scorecards. Lets see what sort of hierarchy we can build of driver skill using the following rules;
1. A driver 'X' beats driver 'Y' in the same team, this is an absolute statement of their ability.
Problem. It is not an absolute statement, because there is no evidence to suggest that two cars on the same team are equal in all accept in their potential. We can accept, that it is by definition as close equal equipment of two cars on the grid as we can get for all practical purposes.
Weight ditribution, tire degradation rate, set up, etc. are some of many factors which excentuate the gap between them. Differences between two cars set up could translate in time loss on each lap under theorethically equal performances of two drivers.
#5
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:30
But yes, all the driver fanboy threads for 6 year olds are pointless.
Pantano > the entire f1 field.
Edited by Andy865, 16 August 2011 - 15:31.
#6
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:33
I think you should offer bonus points to anyone who can untangle the Hill > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Hill loop.
Could you use that feedback loop to generate electricity? It would spin round so fast all by itself you could solve the world's energy issues in one!
#7
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:34
Problem. It is not an absolute statement, because there is no evidence to suggest that two cars on the same team are equal in all accept in their potential. We can accept, that it is by definition as close equal equipment of two cars on the grid as we can get for all practical purposes.
Weight ditribution, tire degradation rate, set up, etc. are some of many factors which excentuate the gap between them. Differences between two cars set up could translate in time loss on each lap under theorethically equal performances of two drivers.
#8
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:35
#9
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:36
#10
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:37
#11
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:38
Alonso, Hamilton?Is there any driver who was never beaten by any teammate over a season ?
Now that I've set a fire in the gunpowder factory, time to move away and never look back.
#12
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:38
/thread
Edited by patgaw, 16 August 2011 - 15:38.
#13
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:38
I wholly agree, it's too much saying driver x is better than driver y just by picking up a certain period of time and generalizing all over the other time periods.
I can accept that Rosberg is performing better than Schumacher at this point, but doesnt necessarly mean he is way better (and I am a Schumacher hater). Schumacher would probably out perform Rosberg in any other motorised sport.
I am sure he is already better in wages than Rosberg.
#14
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:46
#15
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:48
Alonso, Hamilton?
Now that I've set a fire in the gunpowder factory, time to move away and never look back.
Ooo you had to do it, you know Hamilton beat Alonso in 07.
So of course Hamilton > Universe.
#16
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:54
#17
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:55
Alonso was technically beaten by Tarso Marques in 2001 according to Wiki.
So Lewis must technically be one of the best ever having never been beaten on points by a teammate. Bettar than Senna, Prost, Lauda, Schumacher, Alonso, Clark, Stewart and Fangio.
#18
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:55
NiceLauda > Reutemann > Alan Jones > Regazzoni > Hans Stuck > Watson > Prost > Senna
I wonder how many times we can get the same driver in the same loop so that we can show how much better he is than himself?
Yes it is an absolute statement, because it's my thread and I say so.Problem. It is not an absolute statement,
#19
Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:59
edit: just read the above post. bonus internet point for someone that would go all the way and create a flow chart
Edited by Rurouni, 16 August 2011 - 16:04.
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#20
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:07
Vettel.;)Is there any driver who was never beaten by any teammate over a season ?
#21
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:07
#22
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:18
#23
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:19
1982 Watson>Lauda
1984 Lauda>Prost
Which is impossible since Prost beat Watson.
Or to stay in this thread
Watson>Lauda>Prost>Senna Watson greatest driver ever!!!
#24
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:22
Unser Jr. > Marques
Debatable.
#25
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:25
Vettel > Webber > Rosberg > Schumacher > Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld > Vettel
Webber > Coulthard > Liuzzi > Vettel > Webber
Hamilton > Kovalainen > Fisichella > Massa > Villeneuve > Heidfeld > Vettel > Webber > Rosberg > Hamilton (F3 Euroseries)
Button > Trulli > Frentzen > Hill > R. Schumacher > Button
Alonso > Massa > Raikkonen > Montoya > R. Schumacher > Button > Trulli > Katayama > Marques > Alonso
Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld > Massa
Schumacher > Barrichello > Boutsen > Nannini > De Cesaris > Giacomelli > Andretti > Peterson > Lauda > Piquet > Schumacher
Rosberg > Schumacher > Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld > Vettel > Webber > Rosberg
Heidfeld > Raikkonen > Fisichella > Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld
Petrov > doesn't work
Barrichello > Boutsen > Nannini > De Cesaris > Giacomelli > Andretti > Peterson > Lauda > Piquet > Schumacher > Barrichello
Maldonado > doesn't work
Sutil > Liuzzi > Vettel > Webber > Heidfeld > Raikkonen > Fisichella > Sutil
Di Resta > doesn't work
Kobayashi > Trulli > Katayama > Marques > Alonso > Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld > Vettel > Webber > Rosberg > Schumacher > Verstappen > De la Rosa = Kobayashi
PĂ©rez > doesn't work
Edited by midgrid, 16 August 2011 - 16:49.
#26
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:26
#27
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:28
I'm trying to get Barrichello to beat Schumacher, but I'm stuck. Did Coultard ever actually beat his teammate ?
Klien and Liuzzi in 2005/06, Hakkinen in 1997 and 2001 and Webber in 2007. (EDIT: and Raikkonen in 2002)
P.S. I have already worked out a possible Barrichello > Schumacher solution.;)
Edited by midgrid, 16 August 2011 - 16:30.
#28
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:29
I'm trying to get Barrichello to beat Schumacher, but I'm stuck. Did Coultard ever actually beat his teammate ?
1997, 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007. That might give you a few options.
Rule 2 might come into effect though.
Edited by PayasYouRace, 16 August 2011 - 16:31.
#29
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:29
well he beat Hakkinen in 97 and 2001, also Kimi in 2002, not talking about performance, only points if someone feels offended.I'm trying to get Barrichello to beat Schumacher, but I'm stuck. Did Coultard ever actually beat his teammate ?
#30
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:31
sorry, but... WHAT?Vettel > Webber > Rosberg > Schumacher > Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld > Vettel
Webber > Coulthard > Liuzzi > Vettel > Webber
also I don't think Piquet beat Schumacher ofer the year.
#31
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:31
Debatable.
That's fine. Only the final standings count. I've had to ignore rule 2 for some of the other match ups though.
#32
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:32
It's like the Oracle of Bacon... Show that any given driver is better than David Coulthard in 6 steps or less.
Dame Ellen MacArthur > Mark Webber > David Coulthard
And by the same Top Gear logic
Richard Whiteley (RIP) > Michael Schumacher > The World
#33
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:33
Really? Refresh my memory.Heidfeld > Vettel
Liuzzi > Vettel
#34
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:34
You get a drive-through for that.That's fine. Only the final standings count. I've had to ignore rule 2 for some of the other match ups though.
I've been wondering whether Race of Champions is allowable. I'm thinking probably not.
#35
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:35
You get a drive-through for that.
My comeback begins here.
#36
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:36
#37
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:41
Really? Refresh my memory.
Yes, I'm having to stretch it a bit for Vettel.
1. Vettel and Heidfeld were team-mates for the 2007 United States Grand Prix - Heidfeld (unsurprisingly) outperformed the rookie Vettel.
2. Vettel and Liuzzi were team-mates for the final races of the 2007 season. Liuzzi generally outqualified Vettel, and any advantage in points at the end of the season that Vettel may seem to have can be explained by Red Bull's favouritism.
#38
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:42
But this?
Wurz > Rosberg
#39
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:42
(In the year that Schumacher broke his leg.)
Edited by Tsarwash, 16 August 2011 - 16:44.
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#40
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:44
Vettel beat Liuzzi only during wet races in 2007. On dry circuit, Tonio was slighty faster than Sebastian IMO.
But this?
OK, that's just a "normal" error. Fixing now...
#41
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:50
both got fewer points during that period than Vettel. I thought they're playing this sport for those.Yes, I'm having to stretch it a bit for Vettel.
1. Vettel and Heidfeld were team-mates for the 2007 United States Grand Prix - Heidfeld (unsurprisingly) outperformed the rookie Vettel.
2. Vettel and Liuzzi were team-mates for the final races of the 2007 season. Liuzzi generally outqualified Vettel, and any advantage in points at the end of the season that Vettel may seem to have can be explained by Red Bull's favouritism.
#42
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:51
Heidfeld retired so you can't have that.1. Vettel and Heidfeld were team-mates for the 2007 United States Grand Prix - Heidfeld (unsurprisingly) outperformed the rookie Vettel.
Oh dear oh dear. You are shameless!2. Vettel and Liuzzi were team-mates for the final races of the 2007 season. Liuzzi generally outqualified Vettel, and any advantage in points at the end of the season that Vettel may seem to have can be explained by Red Bull's favouritism.
#43
Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:55
#44
Posted 16 August 2011 - 17:01
I like to stick to the official FIA results, thank you.
#45
Posted 16 August 2011 - 17:33
#46
Posted 16 August 2011 - 18:06
You´re thinking too much. Heidfeld>Kubica>Heidfeld>Kubica>Heidfeld>Kubica>Heidfeld...
#47
Posted 16 August 2011 - 18:56
Danica Patrick > Kanaan > Franchitti > Tracy > Unser Jr. > Marques > Alonso > Fisichella > Massa > Villeneuve > Zonta > Webber > Rosberg > Michael Schumacher
Wow, I'd love to see the explanations behind that one!
I'm guessing it's something like this...
1. Danica beat Tony in 2009.
2. Tony beat Dario at some point, I can't be bothered to look it up.
3. Dario beat Paul in Champ Car at some stage, I'm guessing.
4. Can't explain from here!
Edited by Muppetmad, 16 August 2011 - 18:58.
#48
Posted 16 August 2011 - 20:30
Wow, I'd love to see the explanations behind that one!
I'm guessing it's something like this...
1. Danica beat Tony in 2009.
2. Tony beat Dario at some point, I can't be bothered to look it up.
3. Dario beat Paul in Champ Car at some stage, I'm guessing.
4. Can't explain from here!
Pretty much what the plan was. Danica was top AGR driver in 2009. Tony beat Dario in 04 at least. Dario usually beat Paul at Team Green. Paul beat Al Jr. in 97, Al Jr scored more than Marques in 99.
But really rule 2 of the thread was that you should take the overall score out of the whole time that they were teammates.
#50
Posted 16 August 2011 - 20:34
Danica Patrick > ... > Michael Schumacher
Michael Schumacher > Johnny Herbert > Alex Zanardi > Jimmy Vasser > Ryan Hunter-Reay > Danica Patrick
Yay, the loop is complete!