128 replies to this topic

[merschu]

Really nice article from Espn about Michael's first race in Spa. Schumi's first team-mate Andrea de Cesaris, the driver he replaced Bertrand Gachot, his first race-engineer Trevor Foster, Gary Anderson and few more people talks about that weekend.

It was 20 years ago...


"When you've never driven an F1 car before and after two laps you're taking Eau Rouge flat, well… I couldn't believe it."

Andrea de Cesaris trails off. And it's not from embarrassment, because while some might find it hard to take - you've competed in 160 grands prix and suddenly there's this kid who you've never heard of and the only experience he has to his name is 20 laps of Silverstone three days ago, and now your race engineer is showing you telemetry which confirms the new boy is quicker than you, and it's Friday and not even lunchtime yet - Andrea feels no bitterness. Just sheer admiration and a sense of pride that he was there. Andrea was Michael Schumacher's first Formula One team-mate and he knew he would be dining out on that story for the rest of his life.

"I said to my engineer: 'This guy's got guts'. I realised straight away that he wasn't just some newcomer - this guy could really drive. Now it's easy to say that he was really bloody quick, but Spa is no picnic. It's one of the toughest tracks, very quick, long and extremely challenging. In short, it's unforgiving and I expected the rookie to struggle there. I'd never met him before we arrived at the circuit. Straight away he was as quick as me. My engineer, Gary Anderson, came to me and said: 'Look, Michael is taking Blanchimont flat and you're not. You have to take this corner flat'. For me it was a very demanding weekend!"

Legendary British journalist Denis Jenkinson was standing at the crest of Eau Rouge and took note. 'Jenks' was a man who had spent the previous half-century watching the best in the business at close quarters. He timed each driver with a stopwatch from the La Source hairpin through to when they passed him, and announced the 22-year-old fifth fastest behind Senna, Mansell, Patrese and Berger.

"He was right of course," says Financial Times writer James Allen, who was next to Jenks during Friday qualifying. "The Jordan looked amazing. Jenks said that we should keep an eye on this boy. He looked like the real thing."

Full article here; http://en.espnf1.com...tory/56964.html

[merschu]

In the previous article I posted there was this part

Gantry lights extinguished, the whole field swept through La Source with no contact, but as they charged up the hill Schumacher was seen slowing. His race was over almost before it had begun.Having never taken a start before with a heavy fuel load, he'd melted the clutch. The result was terminal.

But today in another article Schumacher said something very different as to why he had that first lap DNF.

Michael Schumacher has pointed the finger at his first Formula 1 boss Eddie Jordan as he recalled his grand prix debut 20 years ago and admits he lied when telling the team boss that he had raced at Spa-Francorchamps before when in fact he never had.

It was a one-off event as Schumacher, then 22, was snapped up after Belgium by Benetton after qualifying in seventh place.
But his actual race lasted less than a lap when he retired with a broken clutch.

“The story is that we had problems in the warmup,” Schumacher, now racing with Mercedes, wrote in a celebratory column for Auto Motor und Sport.I pointed it out at the de-briefing and we talked about whether we should change the clutch or not, but Eddie said that would cost too much money. Then it broke,” added the German.

Weber had negotiated his charge’s F1 debut after Jordan regular Bertrand Gachot was jailed for attacking a London taxi driver.
Weber told Jordan that Schumacher knew Spa well.

I have to clarify the story that we lied about it,” Schumacher said. “Eddie had asked Willi if I had raced there before and Willi said yes, because he could not imagine that I had never been there.”Schumacher also recalled how he and his then manager Willi Weber had stayed in a hostel that weekend.“I remember I was surprised because I had thought ‘Yes, I am now in formula one, the premier class’. I was not particularly bothered with the hostel except that it was cold and the heater didn’t work,” he said.

Here is the rest of the article: http://www.yallaf1.c.....8YallaF1.com)

[DutchCruijff]

Fantastic article, thanks very much for the read

[EdwardCullen]

Schumacher was “a hard worker, very ambitious, mentally strong and also so well prepared physically. It soon became apparent that he was a very special talent”, added Sauber.

“You also need talent and technical knowledge and if you get all these factors close to 100 per cent, you get Michael Schumacher who wins seven titles.”

[EdwardCullen]

"Twenty-four hours later we were all at Silverstone," says Phillips. "Willi [Weber - Michael's manager] and Michael turned up. He was as good as gold. We did a seat fitting for him, and the next day we went testing. After four laps Trevor Foster came on the radio and said 'I've got to call him in and tell him to slow down. Phone Eddie and tell him we've got a star'. I rang Eddie, and Eddie said 'Tell him he's in'."

"That's absolutely correct," confirms Foster, who was Schumacher's race engineer in Belgium. "We did a very small shakedown after the trucks had already left for Spa, just to let Michael familiarize himself with the controls. Instantly, within three laps, he looked like he'd been in the car all season. He looked totally at home."

This is what u call sensational and extraordinary debut for a rookie!!
Not the super rookies we see today, who have like 1000 hrs of simulation drives and 1000 Km of testing.
This is pure talent

[ivand911]

Really nice article from Espn about Michael's first race in Spa. Schumi's first team-mate Andrea de Cesaris, the driver he replaced Bertrand Gachot, his first race-engineer Trevor Foster, Gary Anderson and few more people talks about that weekend.
http://en.espnf1.com...tory/56964.html

Great article.


Michael Schumacher still 'a credit' to F1, says his former boss Peter Sauber
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/93894

There is also good article(2 from 4 parts) about MS in AMuS:
http://www.auto-moto...re-3972022.html
http://www.auto-moto...ge-3972139.html


Thank you Michael for these 20 years!

Edited by ivand911, 23 August 2011 - 15:25.

[pt5]

Really nice article from Espn about Michael's first race in Spa. Schumi's first team-mate Andrea de Cesaris, the driver he replaced Bertrand Gachot, his first race-engineer Trevor Foster, Gary Anderson and few more people talks about that weekend.



http://en.espnf1.com...tory/56964.html

merschu,

I know it is an important day for Michael and i see you are a big fan of him, but just to add some information and put things in a better perspective regarding Michael´s first GP:

1 -Michael´s teamate.

Andrea de Cesaris was a well known pay driver. He was a Marlboro driver and brought big money to Eddie Jordan who really needed after the F3 - F1 jump. Altough some thought of him as a fast but erratic driver, many didn´t see that way. I do think he was slow and a very bad driver. Opinions that´s all. What is a fact is that the very same driver was the man with the most Grand Prix without a win (208 starts without a victory), and was known for the nickname 'De Crasheris'. Nothing to be proud of, agree?

2- Jordan

The above credentials of AdC would certainly lead us to think would have another awfull season in 1991 as some here think the Jordan 191 (Michael´s first F1 car) was a dog. Not only the 191 was one of the most beautifull F1 car ever built IMO, but was extremelly fast. Andrea de Cesaris had his best season in F1 after 10 (not so good...) years. He was able to collect point here and there and good results ( twice he was 4th, and for most of the races he was racing the points). Not to mention that in the specific Belgium GP 1991 he could have win if not for a mechanical problem when he was in second position and lapping faster than Senna - who had a problem with his Mclaren. The car was really really good.

3 -Beating his teamate in his first race ever

It had happened several times before but i think you can find it everywhere. Curiously, Moreno replaced Michael after Spa and also trounced AdC in qualifying the very next GP (altough it was not Moreno´s first race ever).


So, at the end of the day, Michale´s first qualifying was very good but he did not set the world on fire at all.

Edited by pt5, 23 August 2011 - 15:51.

[ivand911]

So, at the end of the day, Michale´s first qualifying was very good but he did not set the world on fire at all.

The fight for his services after Spa , speaks the opposite. I don't remember such battle for any other driver? According to Jordan, Michael have good chance to win(podium for sure) his first GP , if it wasn't the broken clutch. Andrea de Cesaris was second in this race before his engine expired. Read AMuS articles from my post to learn something.

EJ: "I cared more about de Cesaris. The poor guy has suffered from the hype about Michael like a dog. But he was our driver of the first hour, he has brought the first points for us, and I would not let him hang. Trevor took care of Michael. He had long since convinced us. It did not matter that it turned out on Sunday after a mile. Everyone had seen enough. Nevertheless, it was a day of disappointment for us. Michael would have won his first race without a clutch damage. De Cesaris should have won it."

"I still remember the call from the track as if it were today. They told me: The guy is a rocket. I said, 'Check out with from the Silverstone-Sid. Maybe you have you made a mistake in the route. " Everything in order, came back in reply. There was a narrow section of the course, called the Loop. John Watson was unbeatable there. Schumacher has in the passage immediately set up a new best sector.
Trevor and the mechanic came back to the office at night, and I saw it in their faces that something must have happened. "It's insane," said Nick, my mechanic, who had worked in Formula 3 times for me."

Edited by ivand911, 23 August 2011 - 16:13.

[FenderJaguar]

So, at the end of the day, Michale´s first qualifying was very good but he did not set the world on fire at all.

Ah look at that rubbish. Regarding de Crasheris I can agree but Michael Schumacher did an excellent impression which gave him the Benettondrive in the next race. You do know that is why Moreno went to Jordan?

I don't think Michael Schumacher was the best ever and so on but he did make a great impression. Most exciting newcomer and all that. Why take that away? It's just foolish.

[EdwardCullen]

Great article.


Michael Schumacher still 'a credit' to F1, says his former boss Peter Sauber
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/93894

There is also good article(2 from 4 parts) about MS in AMuS:
http://www.auto-moto...re-3972022.html
http://www.auto-moto...ge-3972139.html


Thank you Michael for these 20 years!

Yup Thank you Michael
I had the best time watching F1 especially coz i was a Michael fan
Back in 1996 when i was in 8th grade my friends were talking about this sensational driver in F1, till then i had zero intreset in F1,.....then i watched the argentina 1996 race (my first F1 race) with my friends........instantly i feel in love with the sport and since then had a great time being a Schumacher fan!

[EdwardCullen]

“If you imagine what has happened at Spa in all those years - my start in ’91, my first win in ’92, the phenomenal races in ’95 or the strange race in ’98, or finally the championship in 2004 - to win in Spa, all of those steps marked Spa with a very particular touch,” said Schumacher. “For me, in my whole history, everything comes back to Spa, where everything started and where lots of great stories happened. The emotion of the track, the combination of history, is the reason that Spa became my ‘living room.’”

[as65p]

Yup Thank you Michael
I had the best time watching F1 especially coz i was a Michael fan
Back in 1996 when i was in 8th grade my friends were talking about this sensational driver in F1, till then i had zero intreset in F1,.....then i watched the argentina 1996 race (my first F1 race) with my friends........instantly i feel in love with the sport and since then had a great time being a Schumacher fan!

... and then he came back out of retirement. You gotta pay for everything in life.

[ivand911]

... and then he came back out of retirement. You gotta pay for everything in life.

Yeah, receiving more than 40-50 million euros for this two years have to hurt him much.

[EdwardCullen]

Yup Thank you Michael
I had the best time watching F1 especially coz i was a Michael fan
Back in 1996 when i was in 8th grade my friends were talking about this sensational driver in F1, till then i had zero intreset in F1,.....then i watched the argentina 1996 race (my first F1 race) with my friends........instantly i feel in love with the sport and since then had a great time being a Schumacher fan!

... and then he came back out of retirement. You gotta pay for everything in life.;)

i still have a great time watching him, only you comeout and try to devalue it...but its never going to effect me
infact i have never seen Schumacher in person, and never attended a GP to see the master when he was driving......but now i have seen him at Monaco last year...its was a great moment for me....so his comeback has given me this great oppurtunity so i am having a great time being a Schumacher fan!

Edited by Buttoneer, 24 August 2011 - 09:07.

[Diablobb81]

... and then he came back out of retirement. You gotta pay for everything in life.

Nope. I'm still as happy as in 1994.

[as65p]

Nope. I'm still as happy as in 1994.

Why weren't you happy in 1993? A distinctively better MS year than 2010 or 2011. Strange...

[Diablobb81]

Why weren't you happy in 1993? A distinctively better MS year than 2010 or 2011. Strange...

Because i was a Senna fan when i started watching F1. I liked Michael too but remained with my first love.

[as65p]

Nope. I'm still as happy as in 1994.

Because i was a Senna fan when i started watching F1. I liked Michael too but remained with my first love.

Somehow I don't get it.

[Diablobb81]

Somehow I don't get it.

Life moves on. Even in 1994.

Like i said : i liked both of them but Senna was my first "love". He got me hooked up to F1.

Edited by Diablobb81, 23 August 2011 - 17:51.

[Group B]

Somehow I don't get it.

You're trying too hard; it's much easier to have fun stirring the LH groupies, we're all old and boring in here

[fieraku]

... and then he came back out of retirement. You gotta pay for everything in life.;)
i still have a great time watching him, only you trolls comeout and try to devalue it...but its never going to effect me
infact i have never seen Schumacher in person, and never attended a GP to see the master when he was driving......but now i have seen him at Monaco last year...its was a great moment for me....so his comeback has given me this great oppurtunity so i am having a great time being a Schumacher fan!

I can imagine some of them during the Canada race,yelling and cussing at the TV

[spacekid]

To be fair, I think pt5 made a good first post there. Schumi was impressive on his debut, but everything pt5 says is correct - the car was pretty decent.

Schumi's first full race at Monza was a stronger performance in my opinion, I watched the full race recently. Really good times.

[cheapracer]

To be fair, I think pt5 made a good first post there. Schumi was impressive on his debut, but everything pt5 says is correct - the car was pretty decent.

Really good times.

So was de Cesaris that weekend.

They were good times, very exciting times through periods when a star rises.

Haven't been to this thread for quite some time, I remember why, jealous hatred little people aren't my thing.

[as65p]

You're trying too hard; it's much easier to have fun stirring the LH groupies, we're all old and boring in here ;)

Hey, if you old and boring people keep claiming to have fun with MS comeback, I might as well claim to have fun talking to you!

[sharo]

Hey, if you old and boring people keep claiming to have fun with MS comeback, I might as well claim to have fun talking to you!

Problem is, is it mutual or at the expense of us, the old and boring ones

[pt5]

The fight for his services after Spa , speaks the opposite. I don't remember such battle for any other driver? According to Jordan, Michael have good chance to win(podium for sure) his first GP , if it wasn't the broken clutch. Andrea de Cesaris was second in this race before his engine expired. Read AMuS articles from my post to learn something.

EJ: "I cared more about de Cesaris. The poor guy has suffered from the hype about Michael like a dog. But he was our driver of the first hour, he has brought the first points for us, and I would not let him hang. Trevor took care of Michael. He had long since convinced us. It did not matter that it turned out on Sunday after a mile. Everyone had seen enough. Nevertheless, it was a day of disappointment for us. Michael would have won his first race without a clutch damage. De Cesaris should have won it."

"I still remember the call from the track as if it were today. They told me: The guy is a rocket. I said, 'Check out with from the Silverstone-Sid. Maybe you have you made a mistake in the route. " Everything in order, came back in reply. There was a narrow section of the course, called the Loop. John Watson was unbeatable there. Schumacher has in the passage immediately set up a new best sector.
Trevor and the mechanic came back to the office at night, and I saw it in their faces that something must have happened. "It's insane," said Nick, my mechanic, who had worked in Formula 3 times for me."

Ivan,

as i said, Michael´s qualifying was very good, but don´t fool yourself, Michael was there due the U$150k (some say U$ 200k) from Peter Sauber. As pointed out, HHF was PS´s favourite but he, HHF, chose another way. Wrong move...

Again, to put it in perspective, assuming it was "only" 150 k, it represented nothing less than 1/3 than the highest paid driver that season wich was Nelson Piquet. Nelson Piquet made 8 million dollars that year due his "cash for points contract". Nelson signed it and raced for money, knowing he was going to retire. This also explains his race pace beeing slower than his max.

Assuming MS´s 50 mll salary in his Ferrari years, MS´s place in Jordan was equivalent of one million dollar for one single race/qualifying. Everyone in the business at that time knew there was a lot more money if needed.

Roberto Pupo Moreno, aka "Baixo" , was dumpped from Benetton for Michael due, mainly, three reasons:

1 - Michael was involved in a very complex negotiation in wich many people along with Bernie Ecclestone (german market) would make sure could bring lots of money. Benetton was the best option as Nelson was going to retire, the car was a race winner (even Moreno set the fastest lap in Belgium) and a huge amount of money was cashing in.

2 - Moreno had a problem with his friend and "mentor" NP. They were friends since kids and Nelson helped Moreno´s career a lot. Nelson put Moreno in the Benetton but, somehow, Baixo was not folowing Nelson´s advice regarding set ups. As if Nelson was able to do what he did to Nigel (changing his set up at the very last moment)

3 - Moreno had a physical problem wich led him to throw up during a race. This was not what Benneton wanted...

Anyway, my point is just to raise some facts and have some posters here to have a more objective view of Michael Schumacher beggining in F1.

Edited by pt5, 23 August 2011 - 20:28.

[as65p]

Problem is, is it mutual or at the expense of us, the old and boring ones

Your choice!

And anyway, I bet I'm older and more boring than you. Eat that!

[ivand911]

pt5 so, what is the problem with these 150k? In these times you needed some money to get in F1. How this make Michael achievement less spectacular? I think after the first laps on the race track everybody forget about this 150k. On the next race he was already well paid driver. And Sauber said that Michael learn about this 150k in 2006 when he finally tell him about them.

[zelpre]

Another great article on f1.com:

20 years on - Schumacher’s spectacular Spa debut

[pt5]

pt5 so, what is the problem with these 150k? In these times you needed some money to get in F1. How this make Michael achievement less spectacular? I think after the first laps on the race track everybody forget about this 150k. On the next race he was already well paid driver. And Sauber said that Michael learn about this 150k in 2006 when he finally tell him about them.

No problem Ivan. I was answering someone who thought Michael got his place due some kind of extraordinary talent displayed in pre F1, while simply it didn´t happen. He (Peter Sauber) bought his place paying such an enormous amount of money that every team could see that MS could bring much more than good drives.

About that beeing spetacular, well that´s your opinion. I think it was a very good one, but other drivers have done even better and more impressive debut while 150 k for one single race wich ended some 400 meters after the start (not one mile as i read) in 1991 was something really really incredible. It was Bernie´s sign that money would not be a problem and so F1 entered the German market.

[baddog]

No problem Ivan. I was answering someone who thought Michael got his place due some kind of extraordinary talent displayed in pre F1, while simply it didn´t happen. He (Peter Sauber) bought his place paying such an enormous amount of money that every team could see that MS could bring much more than good drives.

Noone is buying this. Noone.

About that beeing spetacular, well that´s your opinion. I think it was a very good one, but other drivers have done even better and more impressive debut

Name one.

[MikeTekRacing]

About that beeing spetacular, well that´s your opinion. I think it was a very good one, but other drivers have done even better and more impressive debut while 150 k for one single race wich ended some 400 meters after the start (not one mile as i read) in 1991 was something really really incredible. It was Bernie´s sign that money would not be a problem and so F1 entered the German market.

pure nonesense
name a more impressive debut

[Raelene]

whilst I think pt5's post is silly, JVilleneuve had a pretty impressive debut...granted he did have the best car, but it was still pretty impressive.

[as65p]

whilst I think pt5's post is silly, JVilleneuve had a pretty impressive debut...granted he did have the best car, but it was still pretty impressive.

Or <cough> that Hamilton guy, anyone remembering him? Or Mario Andretti, IIRC on pole in his first ever race in Kyalami '71. Same with Carlos Reutemann a year later. Plus in all likelihood half a dozen other guys from the before that time which I don't remember.

Really, Schumacher had a nice debut, but it was nothing unheard of, before or after. Quite a number of drivers had similar or more impressive debuts.

[baddog]

whilst I think pt5's post is silly, JVilleneuve had a pretty impressive debut...granted he did have the best car, but it was still pretty impressive.

Indeed, it was truly impressive. In fact it made one Damon Hill look very foolish indeed. It makes him one of the few people who's debuts are worth discussing in the these terms.

It was not AS impressive though.. He had very extensive testing and preparation, and a car that was the best by a good margin, with (at the time) the best team infrastructure in the sport.

I cant off the cuff think of a more impressive debut than Michael's, but I'm open to hearing about/being reminded of one for sure.

[Raelene]

yes in terms of testing and preparation you are right - he did just jump in and star which is very impressive

[as65p]

Indeed, it was truly impressive. In fact it made one Damon Hill look very foolish indeed.

Just a technicality, I get the impression you believe Hill debut to have been with Williams, which isn't true. He started F1 with (a shadow of the once great) Brabham team in 1992.

Of course he isn't comparable to Schumacher anyway.

[arknor]

Or <cough> that Hamilton guy, anyone remembering him? Or Mario Andretti, IIRC on pole in his first ever race in Kyalami '71. Same with Carlos Reutemann a year later. Plus in all likelihood half a dozen other guys from the before that time which I don't remember.

Really, Schumacher had a nice debut, but it was nothing unheard of, before or after. Quite a number of drivers had similar or more impressive debuts.

how much thousands of miles of testing did hamilton do? and villenueve? alot more than schumachers couple of laps thats for sure they were obviously far more prepared and didnt just jump in blind like schumacher did

[Raelene]

as65p
he was saying that JV, made DH (who wasn't a rookie) look bad

Edited by Raelene, 24 August 2011 - 01:13.

[Zippel]

pure nonesense
name a more impressive debut

Frentzen qualified 5th in his first race with Sauber.

[baddog]

Just a technicality, I get the impression you believe Hill debut to have been with Williams, which isn't true. He started F1 with (a shadow of the once great) Brabham team in 1992.

Of course he isn't comparable to Schumacher anyway.

No I meant that Hill, his established and WDC contending teammate should have, were he that good, taken the rookie to the cleaners.

[Zippel]

No I meant that Hill, his established and WDC contending teammate should have, were he that good, taken the rookie to the cleaners.

Possibly, but then it was a new circuit... and Alonso should have done the same in 2007, but clearly in JV and Hamo's cases they had that extra something, which ultimately won them the championship in their next respective years.

Edited by Zippel, 24 August 2011 - 04:02.

[baddog]

Possibly, but then it was a new circuit... and Alonso should have done the same in 2007, but clearly in JV and Hamo's cases they had that extra something, which ultimately won them the championship in their next respective years.

I agree, the parallels between jacques and lewis are marked. We will see if Lewis has the discipline/fortune to avoid the traps jacques fell into later.

[EdwardCullen]

how much thousands of miles of testing did hamilton do? and villenueve? alot more than schumachers couple of laps thats for sure they were obviously far more prepared and didnt just jump in blind like schumacher did

Everyone keeps forgetting this
Lewis and JV s debut was fantastic but compared to MS they both had like 1000 km of testing under their belt
And Lewis even had another few 1000 km in simulator
whereas MS just had 20 laps at silverstone ! That's it!
If MS such preparation and had the fastest car in the field ( like Lewis and JV) he would have won te race!

[MikeTekRacing]

Possibly, but then it was a new circuit... and Alonso should have done the same in 2007, but clearly in JV and Hamo's cases they had that extra something, which ultimately won them the championship in their next respective years.

JV and Hamilton had a winter of preparation and they were joining the teams as stars (and very good teams indeed)

JV was quite fast but his debut made Hill look rather bad.Not to take anything away from JV, he had an impressive debut
Hamilton agree-fantastic driver and paired with Alonso.

Kubica also had a very good debut

The point in question was not the result etc but coming out of nowhere on F1's radar and "bang" make everybody say "wtfk is this guy doing"...and all these in a more "romantic" time of f1, very little preparation, very small budget team (none of the above drivers were pay drivers or made their debut in a team that couldn't afford a clutch change between warm-up and qualy)

[as65p]

No I meant that Hill, his established and WDC contending teammate should have, were he that good, taken the rookie to the cleaners.

Yep, see it now. I totally misunderstood what you were trying to say, my bad.

[ivand911]

Everyone keeps forgetting this
Lewis and JV s debut was fantastic but compared to MS they both had like 1000 km of testing under their belt
And Lewis even had another few 1000 km in simulator
whereas MS just had 20 laps at silverstone ! That's it!
If MS such preparation and had the fastest car in the field ( like Lewis and JV) he would have won te race!

According to the EJ , Michael have very good chance to win his first GP, if it wasn't for the clutch problem(EJ didn't want to pay for new one). The car maybe 3-4-5 fastest was still good solid car(not like W02), with good Ford motor(new specification that used more oil and this is why AdC engine expired, because they didn't put additional oil).

[britishtrident]

It would be nice if Schumacher bowed to the inevitable and announced is retirement at Spa, he has been bed blocking too long.

[ivand911]

It would be nice if Schumacher bowed to the inevitable and announced is retirement at Spa, he has been bed blocking too long.

[Number62]

pure nonesense
name a more impressive debut

Mike Hawthorn qualified 6th and finished 4th.