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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


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#2101 PretentiousBread

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 23:49

I forget who said it, but one of the drivers made it clear that the 'delta' thing isn't quite true. They have an estimated laptime they expect to be able to drive at and still hold tirelife for however long, but since conditions change so much and since they dont usually get to do real long runs in practice, its not something they strictly drive to or anything.

But anyways, my point is that in bike racing, they are often going a good deal slower than they could in order to make tires last, too. People say that its not racing because they're not pushing to the limits, which means that bike racing isn't racing either.


I don't know how you can even begin to compare the levels of tyre nursing in bike racing with what we have in F1. It's an important factor, but more important is the absolute, relentless, pummelling pace of the rider. MotoGP is like a utopia - the racing is dynamic, it's superb and highly entertaining, yet without the need to sacrifice any core values to make it appear this way.

The key issue, and difference between what we have now in F1 and what people perceive as a traditional dose of good old tyre management, is precisely the nature of the degradation. Hamilton summed it up very well back in 2011 at his first test at Barcelona with them, the first occasion they were being subjected to high speed, long duration corners:

"It's very strange.....even compared to last year, when we had heavy fuel and you had to drive it a little easier at the beginning of the race to preserve the tyres. The tyres just go away so fast and there's nothing you can do about it. I didn't feel like I was really racing the car." and in a separate interview "it's not racing, it's just driving around."


Why this is occurring is explained well by Mark Hughes:

"The mechanism by which the circuit rubbers in and a chemical bonding unfolds at higher grip levels didn't really happen - almost all of the grip was 'mechanical' rather than chemical, derived by the tyres contact patch simply clawing the surface against the road. It used to be the case that as grip rose, the chemical bonding process would increase. That meant fast cars did not usually degrade their tyres faster than slow cars, but with the Pirellis the faster you went, the faster the tyre lost performance"


This is not normal tyre behaviour, tyres should be able to 'come back' to the driver and he should have a greater influence on their performance beyond simply his chosen pace - that basically doesn't happen with the P-Zero's - they just churn up faster, exponentially to the loads being placed on them because of their high thermal degradation and lack of chemical grip. The old tricks for looking after tyres - minimising tractive slip, shortening the corners, minimising tyre scrub - are secondary to the amount the tyre is being loaded through a corner and its basic mileage. How do you reduce the tyre loadings? Simply slow down, particularly through the fast corners, hence the 8 tenths comments. This isn't racing at the maximum while taking good care of the rubber, this is just pacing yourself while taking good care of the rubber, and trying to judge it better than the other guy. But please, I hope I will be spared the BS that this is some sort of supreme virtuoso requirement placed upon the driver, equal to or even more demanding than driving at the limit of adhesion, as if that is some sort of dull, easy bore for them.....Nothing is more challenging for the driver than driving at the limit, and the faster you're going, the more nervous and twitchy the car becomes, the bigger the challenge, the more skill is required. It is precisely the opposite with this enforced endurance racing.

These tyres are the ultimate equaliser, a form of rubber banding. What could be clearer of this than Pirelli's admission that Red Bull could have lapped the field based on their estimations in Malaysia, were they on properly durable, flat out race tyres? Imagine Tennis was still in an era where it was all about having a big serve to rely on to win, and in order to cure this they artificially introduced a racket which absorbed more of the energy the harder you hit the ball, penalising the hard hitters - it's that daft.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 12 April 2013 - 23:52.


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#2102 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:06

I find it quite amusing to see some of the defensiveness here of the Pirellis. The drivers are coming out and saying they are driving at 8 tenths, they don't feel like they're racing anymore, they're not finding it enjoyable. Quite sad when the drivers are not finding it enjoyable.

Button: "I think we're all going to be given a time to go to, and that's it." Endurance racing.

Funny because Jenson just recently said he's enjoying working with these tires.

I don't know how you can even begin to compare the levels of tyre nursing in bike racing with what we have in F1. It's an important factor, but more important is the absolute, relentless, pummelling pace of the rider. MotoGP is like a utopia - the racing is dynamic, it's superb and highly entertaining, yet without the need to sacrifice any core values to make it appear this way.

Absolute, relentless, pummeling pace of the rider? :lol:

They'll be the first to tell you that they dont ride anything like 10/10th's in a race situation. They cant, because they have to save their tires for the distance. In that respect, its very much like what we have in F1 right now.

As far as 'core values' goes, what are those and where are they written down in law? Dont know how long you've been watching, but MotoGP can be extremely boring, too, by the way. I'm speaking more of bike racing in general, where notable tire-saving is present almost universally. Watch a Moto2 or Moto3 or World Superbike race or something and see just how core it is to save your tires as much as possible while still trying to run up front. Thats basically what F1 drivers have to do now. Its different from what they could do in the past, but its still racing.

#2103 akshay380

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:06

Hey guys, I have just tweeted this thread to Paul Hembery again. Can you please retweet around? https://twitter.com/F1Akshay

In other news, where can we watch GP2 race? Really interested after those comments from Button.

#2104 OO7

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:08

I don't know how you can even begin to compare the levels of tyre nursing in bike racing with what we have in F1. It's an important factor, but more important is the absolute, relentless, pummelling pace of the rider. MotoGP is like a utopia - the racing is dynamic, it's superb and highly entertaining, yet without the need to sacrifice any core values to make it appear this way.

The key issue, and difference between what we have now in F1 and what people perceive as a traditional dose of good old tyre management, is precisely the nature of the degradation. Hamilton summed it up very well back in 2011 at his first test at Barcelona with them, the first occasion they were being subjected to high speed, long duration corners:



Why this is occurring is explained well by Mark Hughes:



This is not normal tyre behaviour, tyres should be able to 'come back' to the driver and he should have a greater influence on their performance beyond simply his chosen pace - that basically doesn't happen with the P-Zero's - they just churn up faster, exponentially to the loads being placed on them because of their high thermal degradation and lack of chemical grip. The old tricks for looking after tyres - minimising tractive slip, shortening the corners, minimising tyre scrub - are secondary to the amount the tyre is being loaded through a corner and its basic mileage. How do you reduce the tyre loadings? Simply slow down, particularly through the fast corners, hence the 8 tenths comments. This isn't racing at the maximum while taking good care of the rubber, this is just pacing yourself while taking good care of the rubber, and trying to judge it better than the other guy. But please, I hope I will be spared the BS that this is some sort of supreme virtuoso requirement placed upon the driver, equal to or even more demanding than driving at the limit of adhesion, as if that is some sort of dull, easy bore for them.....Nothing is more challenging for the driver than driving at the limit, and the faster you're going, the more nervous and twitchy the car becomes, the bigger the challenge, the more skill is required. It is precisely the opposite with this enforced endurance racing.

These tyres are the ultimate equaliser, a form of rubber banding. What could be clearer of this than Pirelli's admission that Red Bull could have lapped the field based on their estimations in Malaysia, were they on properly durable, flat out race tyres? Imagine Tennis was still in an era where it was all about having a big serve to rely on to win, and in order to cure this they artificially introduced a racket which absorbed more of the energy the harder you hit the ball, penalising the hard hitters - it's that daft.

Game, Set & Match. :up:

#2105 BoschKurve

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:09

Pirelli is paid for their tyres in F1, unlike Michelin or Bridgestone. This was brought up awhile back amf someone posted a link.


Link please.

#2106 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:13

Hey guys, I have just tweeted this thread to Paul Hembery again. Can you please retweet around? https://twitter.com/F1Akshay

In other news, where can we watch GP2 race? Really interested after those comments from Button.

Ah, the old 'we're a minority but we're gonna scream the loudest' approach.

#2107 BoschKurve

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:22

I don't know how you can even begin to compare the levels of tyre nursing in bike racing with what we have in F1. It's an important factor, but more important is the absolute, relentless, pummelling pace of the rider. MotoGP is like a utopia - the racing is dynamic, it's superb and highly entertaining, yet without the need to sacrifice any core values to make it appear this way.

The key issue, and difference between what we have now in F1 and what people perceive as a traditional dose of good old tyre management, is precisely the nature of the degradation. Hamilton summed it up very well back in 2011 at his first test at Barcelona with them, the first occasion they were being subjected to high speed, long duration corners:



Why this is occurring is explained well by Mark Hughes:



This is not normal tyre behaviour, tyres should be able to 'come back' to the driver and he should have a greater influence on their performance beyond simply his chosen pace - that basically doesn't happen with the P-Zero's - they just churn up faster, exponentially to the loads being placed on them because of their high thermal degradation and lack of chemical grip. The old tricks for looking after tyres - minimising tractive slip, shortening the corners, minimising tyre scrub - are secondary to the amount the tyre is being loaded through a corner and its basic mileage. How do you reduce the tyre loadings? Simply slow down, particularly through the fast corners, hence the 8 tenths comments. This isn't racing at the maximum while taking good care of the rubber, this is just pacing yourself while taking good care of the rubber, and trying to judge it better than the other guy. But please, I hope I will be spared the BS that this is some sort of supreme virtuoso requirement placed upon the driver, equal to or even more demanding than driving at the limit of adhesion, as if that is some sort of dull, easy bore for them.....Nothing is more challenging for the driver than driving at the limit, and the faster you're going, the more nervous and twitchy the car becomes, the bigger the challenge, the more skill is required. It is precisely the opposite with this enforced endurance racing.

These tyres are the ultimate equaliser, a form of rubber banding. What could be clearer of this than Pirelli's admission that Red Bull could have lapped the field based on their estimations in Malaysia, were they on properly durable, flat out race tyres? Imagine Tennis was still in an era where it was all about having a big serve to rely on to win, and in order to cure this they artificially introduced a racket which absorbed more of the energy the harder you hit the ball, penalising the hard hitters - it's that daft.


Great post Bread.

With today's formula in place years ago, I can only think of how we would have been robbed of the chance to watch the qualities of Clark, Peterson, Villeneuve, or even Senna shine on the track.

When the tires are designed to rubber band the participants in the race by not allowing anyone to really push, you never see the true qualities of the great drivers show. Were things always great in the past? Certainly not. But were it not for tires that actually allowed drivers to push, many of the things that drew us to F1 would not have ever happened. I know had it not been for seeing cars on the ragged edge, the appeal of F1 would not have been there.

I'm watching the 1978 Belgian Grand Prix as I write this...and watching Gilles chasing after Mario in the Lotus 79 would simply not happen today. Rear ends of the cars sliding out....Villeneuve pushing. That is what F1 was about once. It's a shame people's attention spans have dwindled so significantly that they cannot see the beauty in drivers setting up someone in front of them for an overtake over the course of a few laps. Racing can be exciting without gimmicks. It's a shame the FIA is in over their heads and has no idea how to address certain things on the technical side that would do away with this over-reliance on gimmick garbage.

#2108 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:32

Funny because Jenson just recently said he's enjoying working with these tires.


Absolute, relentless, pummeling pace of the rider? :lol:

They'll be the first to tell you that they dont ride anything like 10/10th's in a race situation. They cant, because they have to save their tires for the distance. In that respect, its very much like what we have in F1 right now.

As far as 'core values' goes, what are those and where are they written down in law? Dont know how long you've been watching, but MotoGP can be extremely boring, too, by the way. I'm speaking more of bike racing in general, where notable tire-saving is present almost universally. Watch a Moto2 or Moto3 or World Superbike race or something and see just how core it is to save your tires as much as possible while still trying to run up front. Thats basically what F1 drivers have to do now. Its different from what they could do in the past, but its still racing.


Yes, that's why the difference between pole and fastest lap at Qatar in MotoGP was a mere 7 tenths and the gap in F1 these days is anything between 3-6 seconds, they're practically identical in that regard.

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#2109 akshay380

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:36

Ah, the old 'we're a minority but we're gonna scream the loudest' approach.

Either prove we are minority as I asked you in other thread or shut up. Just because you enjoy the show does not mean everyone else does.

#2110 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:41

Either prove we are minority as I asked you in other thread or shut up. Just because you enjoy the show does not mean everyone else does.

http://forums.autosp...w...&hl=pirelli

Majority of people preferred the Pirelli's. And thats among the diehard F1 fans here on the board. The 'Rate the GP' threads all seem to point to a large majority of people enjoying the races here, too. You really think casual fans are all up-in-arms over this like you guys? :lol: They dont care about that stuff so long as there's good action, which there usually is.

And please dont tell me to shut up. I know you'd love it if I did because then you could join the rest of the circle jerk in peace, but alas, this board is for discussion.

@PretentiousBread - bikes dont need 140kg of fuel. Even before Pirelli, it was normal to have several seconds difference between quali and fastest race lap.

Edited by Seanspeed, 13 April 2013 - 00:46.


#2111 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:56

http://forums.autosp...w...&hl=pirelli

Majority of people preferred the Pirelli's. And thats among the diehard F1 fans here on the board. The 'Rate the GP' threads all seem to point to a large majority of people enjoying the races here, too. You really think casual fans are all up-in-arms over this like you guys? :lol: They dont care about that stuff so long as there's good action, which there usually is.

And please dont tell me to shut up. I know you'd love it if I did because then you could join the rest of the circle jerk in peace, but alas, this board is for discussion.

@PretentiousBread - bikes dont need 140kg of fuel.


I acknowledge the majority prefer this racing and that is reflected in the votes, which can be explained in part by this view point:

Pirelli. It may be a bit fake but the racing is so much more exciting. 2010 was an awful year for racing.


He might prefer Pirelli, but if there were many others like him who voted Pirelli despite their fakeness, on top of those who voted for Bridgestone, then suddenly yours becomes a minority view - that everything's more or less spiffing.


RE fastest laps, do you think cars have 140kgs of fuel when they set their fastest laps?

&

If fuel was the predominant factor in the chasm between pole and FL, why is this not consistent with 2010? Why has the chasm widened, despite the fact that multi-stop races since 2011 mean generally the fastest laps are set on much newer tyres than was the case in 2010 where most races were done in 1 stop?

Edited by PretentiousBread, 13 April 2013 - 00:57.


#2112 akshay380

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:03

http://forums.autosp...w...&hl=pirelli

LOL! That thread is from May 2012 and pieces where not falling off tires then. Enjoy the show while it lasts.

#2113 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:08

I acknowledge the majority prefer this racing and that is reflected in the votes, which can be explained in part by this view point:



He might prefer Pirelli, but if there were many others like him who voted Pirelli despite their fakeness, on top of those who voted for Bridgestone, then suddenly yours becomes a minority view - that everything's more or less spiffing.

'Fakeness' is a very ridiculous term here. How do you define whats real and fake when it comes to tires? Its just preference. The main point is that they prefered the Pirelli's.

I dont even think I've given my full view of the Pirelli's on here. I would never claim everything is perfect. I just enjoy what they've brought to the racing.

RE fastest laps, do you think cars have 140kgs of fuel when they set their fastest laps?

&

If fuel was the predominant factor in the chasm between pole and FL, why is this not consistent with 2010? Why has the chasm widened, despite the fact that multi-stop races since 2011 mean generally the fastest laps are set on much newer tyres than was the case in 2010 where most races were done in 1 stop?

Fair point about when the fastest laps occur, but F1 for a long time hasn't gotten close to low-fuel quali pace in races. It was normal even in the refueling era for the fastest laps to still be seconds(plural) off the fastest times in qualifying. The gap has widened now for obvious reasons(tires and less engines), but my main point is that both in F1 and bike racing, they have to take a similar approach - conserving tires to make them last over a stint. Of course there's going to be differences, but that aspect is pretty much the same.

#2114 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:10

LOL! That thread is from May 2012 and pieces where not falling off tires then. Enjoy the show while it lasts.

I guess you weren't around for it, but there was just as much discussion and concern over the tires then as there is right now. That was in May, yes, when the tire controversy of last year was in full swing. It didn't calm down til later on in the season.

Nice try trying to dismiss it, though. :lol:

EDIT: As far as enjoying this while it lasts, I see no reason why they would change. Maybe go back to something like 2012 at the worst, but the FIA seem quite content with the current situation or else they would have demanded Pirelli make more durable tires. I must say, you should probably not get too smug about thinking things will change cuz you're likely going to end up wrong and disappointed.

Edited by Seanspeed, 13 April 2013 - 01:14.


#2115 akshay380

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:15

I guess you weren't around for it, but there was just as much discussion and concern over the tires then as there is right now. That was in May, yes, when the tire controversy of last year was in full swing. It didn't calm down til later on in the season.

Nice try trying to dismiss it, though. :lol:

I was around but choose not to post because I wanted to see if pirelli improve. Also FYI BS got 47.43% votes compared to Pirellis 52.57%. Hardly an overwhelming majority. Lets see what this poll says http://forums.autosp...howtopic=184352 If Pirelli wins I apologize. No questions.

#2116 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:17

I was around but choose not to post because I wanted to see if pirelli improve. Also FYI BS got 47.43% votes compared to Pirellis 52.57%. Hardly an overwhelming majority. Lets see what this poll says http://forums.autosp...howtopic=184352 If Pirelli wins I apologize. No questions.

You weren't even registered then. And you saw that exact poll and remember it? Dont lie, please.

EDIT: Seeing your poll, you're already trying to skew things. There's a clear agenda there and you worded things to try and illicit a certain response. Hardly fair or objective.

Edited by Seanspeed, 13 April 2013 - 01:22.


#2117 SUPRAF1

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:40

This might have been mentioned somewhere previously in the topic, but isn't it really annoying for teams because they spent millions of dollars for tiny aerodynamic advantages only to find out they're getting wiped out with unstable tires? How are they managing to get steady data? I'd imagine a lot of the laps they put in would have a large tire wear factor in them :s.

#2118 JaredS

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:28

Funny because Jenson just recently said he's enjoying working with these tires.


He must be one of those drivers that likes "going to a time". Actually if you read all of his quotes, he's said quite a few things about the tyres and some of it quite contradictory.

Some of the comments:

Button "I think there was a lot of complaining about the tyres at the last race, but it is even more extreme here. It's extreme degradation and from a tyre that's doing a (one minute) 35 in qualifying spec and then in the race after eight laps doing 48 ... we're slower than GP2 cars."
Doesn't exactly sound like he's particularly enjoying working with these tyres there. Then again, who knows with Jenson, might be exactly what he enjoys.

Webber ""The whole category is geared around tyres...tyres, tyres, tyres, tyres, tyres!"

Schumacher (who's raced over many, many seasons so not exactly a newbie complaining) "The main thing I feel unhappy about is everyone has to drive well below a driver's, and in particular, the car's limits to maintain the tyres. I just question whether they should play such a big importance, or whether they should last a bit longer, and that you can drive at normal racing car speed and not cruise around like we have a safety car. They're playing a much too big effect because they are so peaky and so special that they don't put our cars or ourselves to the limit. We drive like on raw eggs and I don't want to stress the tyres at all. Otherwise you just overdo it and you go nowhere."

Lewis "It’s like you have a hundred dollars and you have to spend it wisely over a period of time.” "I did a couple of laps and the tyre just disintegrated. I've never had tyres behave this way."

Vettel "You end up going around way under the car. It's not a lot of fun but that's the way it is."

Horner "I think what we want to avoid is drivers cruising around under the performance of their car, unable to follow another car closely, otherwise it's not racing."

You say that supposedly it has always been like that, but even old school drivers e.g Berger ""But it cannot be that, having invested millions in the wind tunnels and the engines and the drivers, you go to the track and can't use the tyre. It's an unfortunate situation. Now that there is one tyre, it cannot be that it governs the entire field."

Edited by JaredS, 13 April 2013 - 03:58.


#2119 JaredS

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:36

I think Schumacher's comments above hit the nail on the head. The complaining is NOT about the fact that they degrade. It is all about the fact that they degrade without allowing the driver to push properly, as a racing driver should.

Note that I say PUSH, not ABUSE. The tyres should reward drivers who drive at 10 tenths and then degrade in a stable manner after a decent few laps so that it challenges the driver to drive as fast as he can whilst the tyres are giving grip but also challenges the driver to drive as fast as he can as the tyres are losing grip. That will sort out the men from the boys.

But instead, these tyres reward driving well under the limit. Why do you think we're seeing so many instances of fuel saving etc. Simple, because the drivers are expected to drive at well under their and the car's limit, they put in fuel based on that estimate. If there is suddenly more grip available than predicted or degradation isn't as steep as predicted, based on practise data, then drivers end up going faster (as they should!) and hence use up too much fuel.

We're going to be seeing a lot more of this fuel saving BS.

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#2120 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:13

No doubt Knuckles will rock up shortly to tell us all is well :rolleyes:


So you continue with your lies, I didn't expect anything else.
FWIW, I didn't watch FPs, but from what I read the soft does not appear to make sense as a race tyre (edit: this time. But we will see on Sunday). Medium seems to be fine, and the soft seems to be a reasonable quali tyre (edit: but having those makes no sense with current tyre rules). The stupid two-compound rule has to go, it was invented for a different tyre situation. I hated it then and it makes even less sense now.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 13 April 2013 - 03:32.


#2121 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:22

I do think the teams and FIA got more than they bargained for. Hembrey is now describing the soft tyres in China as "qualifying tyres".

All of this seems to be a side effect of trying to force teams to 2 to 3 pit stops per race. If they had known that this seemingly simple requirement came with the need to drive slower than GP2 cars, I think they wouldn't have asked for it.


To be fair (I know that this is too much to ask in this thread), Hembery said the thing about the quali tyres in some interview I think late last year. I won't dig up the quote as it will be ignored anyway if if does not fit with the nerd rage story in this thread, like the new Räikkönen quotes someone posted. Or this from Massa:

Our race pace looks competitive, the car is handling well on both types of tyre and degradation was not excessive, even if the higher wear rate of the Soft compared to the Medium compound will be an important factor when it comes to choosing the right strategy.


Yes, I know that other drivers said different things. But those quotes were already posted, Massa's was not as far as I have read, and it should be included for perspective.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 13 April 2013 - 03:24.


#2122 boldhakka

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:24

So you continue with your lies, I didn't expect anything else.
FWIW, I didn't watch FPs, but from what I read the soft does not appear to make sense as a race tyre. Medium seems to be fine, and the soft seems to be a reasonable quali tyre. The stupid two-compound rule has to go, it was invented for a different tyre situation. I hated it then and it makes even less sense now.


Yeah, the two compound rule was there before Pirelli and Pirelli knew about the rule before they showed up to this GP. The fact that they can even make this mistake after three years in the sport tells us what their attitude is. Well, at least some are admitting Pirelli made a mistake in their choice of tyres, that's a good first step.

#2123 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:36

Yeah, the two compound rule was there before Pirelli and Pirelli knew about the rule before they showed up to this GP. The fact that they can even make this mistake after three years in the sport tells us what their attitude is. Well, at least some are admitting Pirelli made a mistake in their choice of tyres, that's a good first step.


McLaren has been in the sports for decades and still can't screw the tyres on correctly. Mistakes happen. And we will see on Sunday if it was one.

#2124 mattferg

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:39

For once I find myself agreeing with Knuckles. Pirelli seem 'inspired' from Austin last year to bring the wrong tyres to certain events to 'spice up racing'. I don't mind the tyres overall but bringing the wrong kind of tyre as a gimmick is absolutely mind boggling. Those super softs should've never been in Melbourne either. Inb4 hards and mediums in Monaco... or something else stupid like hards and SSs.

#2125 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:43

For once I find myself agreeing with Knuckles. Pirelli seem 'inspired' from Austin last year to bring the wrong tyres to certain events to 'spice up racing'. I don't mind the tyres overall but bringing the wrong kind of tyre as a gimmick is absolutely mind boggling. Those super softs should've never been in Melbourne either. Inb4 hards and mediums in Monaco... or something else stupid like hards and SSs.


Actually in this thread I agreed with most or all of your posts, IIRC. I remember because I was briefly thinking whether I needed to reevaluate my position :cool:
Edit: And I always have to chuckle when (some I guess) anti-Pirelli posters point to Austin as an example for Pirelli choosing the right tyres and how much better the racing was. When in fact, as you say, they were utterly wrong.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 13 April 2013 - 03:47.


#2126 mattferg

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:45

Actually in this thread I agreed with most or all of your posts, IIRC. I remember because I was briefly thinking whether I needed to reevaluate my position :cool:


Aww thanks buddy!

But yeah, I don't mind degrading tyres UP TO A POINT. When they can barely last a quali stint and then they have to start on said tyre, punishing faster cars that got into Q3... it makes no sense.

It could get as bad as cars not running like in P1 or opting to run the harder compound in quali if they keep doing this. That's be rubbish for fans, the sport, the average viewer, AND Pirelli.

Edited by mattferg, 13 April 2013 - 03:47.


#2127 tjkoyen

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:55

"It's extreme degradation and from a tyre that's doing a (one minute) 35 in qualifying spec and then in the race after eight laps doing 48 ... we're slower than GP2 cars."


LOL @ 13 second drop-off

Absolutely ridiculous.

#2128 SpaMaster

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 04:07

Hey guys, I have just tweeted this thread to Paul Hembery again. Can you please retweet around? https://twitter.com/F1Akshay

In other news, where can we watch GP2 race? Really interested after those comments from Button.

Yeah, but I think Hembrey has already commented on this thread and the point is very clear.

#2129 Alx09

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 07:40

Yeah, but I think Hembrey has already commented on this thread and the point is very clear.

What did he say?

Also, what a fantastic qualifying - not. That must've been the most boring one I can remember, and that is with my favourite driver on pole.

#2130 nosecone

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:00

OK now we have Qualifying tyres.... which aren't used in Qualifying.
Todays Quali was, with the exception of the tyre choice in Q3, boring. If the f1 sustains the policy of very soft tyres, we need 2 sets more of every compound. The teams are saving the tyres the whole weekend. The tyres are the dominating tyres every weekend.

For tomorrow i expect the same as always: tyre saving with no real racing. Tomorrow we will wait until someones tyres fall apart and then got overtaked with DRS. Is this racing? In my opinion racing does not mean to drive every lap with 100% but it does also not mean that everybody has to save the tyres every lap. I think most of you will notice it soon. A year ago i thought these tyres are good for the sport. Today i think different, because the F1 should not be dominated by one thing. But everything- practice, Quali, Race- is dominated by tyres.
Maybe we see alot of passing due to the tyres but we don't need every year more. I have seen many races with far less passing than in F1 now, which were much more exciting. For example the US GP of 2012. The race was dominated by the big fight at the front which wasn't destroyed by boxenstopps. The tyres did last long enough to fight many laps. I think everybody agrees that this was a good race. The conclusion is that it is possible to deliver good racing with only one stop per driver

#2131 sharo

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:02

Passing is not equal to racing.
Unfortunately I see a lot of people sharing the false perception about passing and racing.

#2132 jey16

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:18

Just get rid of the rule that you have to start the race on your q3 tyre

#2133 nosecone

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:18

Passing is not equal to racing.
Unfortunately I see a lot of people sharing the false perception about passing and racing.

Woohoooo you're absolutely right!!!!

A race could be very exciting without a lot of passing. A race could also be good if it has long-lasting battles with just a few passes.

#2134 Disgrace

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:30

Just get rid of the rule that you have to start the race on your q3 tyre


One million times this.

#2135 sharo

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:36

Woohoooo you're absolutely right!!!!

A race could be very exciting without a lot of passing. A race could also be good if it has long-lasting battles with just a few passes.

As the words in a song of Deep Purple go: "It's not the kill, it's the thrill of the chase." :)
The thrill which keeps you sitting on the edge of the chair and leaning instinctively towards the TV. And it doesn't matter much who you are rooting for as long as there is a fight at the limit of both driver mastercraft and machine.

#2136 JRodrigues

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:16

Just get rid of the rule that you have to start the race on your q3 tyre


even better: let the teams choose which type of tire they use all weekend.

#2137 peroa

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:52

Paulie getting nervous...
http://www.grandprix...ns/ns25188.html

#2138 peroa

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:53

Just get rid of the rule that you have to start the race on your q3 tyre

Why would you cure the symptom and not the disease?

#2139 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:59

As I have said several times get rid of 4 lap tyres, flappy wings and electric motors that even function sometimes. And have real motor racing without all the gimmicks. The best and smartest driver wins the races. Which may be a few different people

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#2140 JV97

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:23

What really frustrates me is Pirelli saying how it's fine because the race will be a 2 or 3 stopper. But there seems to be a total disregard for how slow they have to drive to make that happen.

#2141 PurpleHam

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:26

Is there someone from the F.I.A and Pirelli on here please because I need to have a word.

The qualifying was a disgrace, you've got fans at the track and all over the world watching, and that's the best "Show" you can come up with?

I have a solution, a very easy solution, and I have said this since the start of last year when we had similar scenarios in qualifying.

Give the teams an extra set of the softer compound for qualifying only, then take them away, and the top 3 places in qualifying get to choose the tyre they use for the race.

This gives clear incentives to teams to not save tyres, and to gain an advantage for putting on a "Show" in qualifying.

That would be alot better than what we have now, today was the worst it has been, and no doubt we'll see the same thing again this season.

#2142 Guizotia

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:38

Is there someone from the F.I.A and Pirelli on here please because I need to have a word.

The qualifying was a disgrace, you've got fans at the track and all over the world watching, and that's the best "Show" you can come up with?

I have a solution, a very easy solution, and I have said this since the start of last year when we had similar scenarios in qualifying.

Give the teams an extra set of the softer compound for qualifying only, then take them away, and the top 3 places in qualifying get to choose the tyre they use for the race.

This gives clear incentives to teams to not save tyres, and to gain an advantage for putting on a "Show" in qualifying.

That would be alot better than what we have now, today was the worst it has been, and no doubt we'll see the same thing again this season.


I vote for this.

#2143 SunnyENTP

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:40

Is there someone from the F.I.A and Pirelli on here please because I need to have a word.

The qualifying was a disgrace, you've got fans at the track and all over the world watching, and that's the best "Show" you can come up with?

I have a solution, a very easy solution, and I have said this since the start of last year when we had similar scenarios in qualifying.

Give the teams an extra set of the softer compound for qualifying only, then take them away, and the top 3 places in qualifying get to choose the tyre they use for the race.

This gives clear incentives to teams to not save tyres, and to gain an advantage for putting on a "Show" in qualifying.

That would be alot better than what we have now, today was the worst it has been, and no doubt we'll see the same thing again this season.



This sort of sense has no place in F1. You'd sooner see Bernis Medal table and artificial water sprinkler than this.

#2144 FPV GTHO

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:42

How would the tyre strategies work if the tyres didnt have that initial extra grip i.e. the performance was more consistent over a stint?

I seem to recall from Malaysia the Hard tyre stints were much shorter than what the tyres could take, as it was simply quicker to come in and have the boost from fresh tyres.

If the new tyres didnt have such an edge, would the teams be making less stops? Or would this situation just make things worse?

#2145 Kalmake

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:48

As I recall, not running at Q3 happened with Bridgestones too. It's just better to use harder sets on heavy fuel load.

Teams don't want to change the rules. Pirelli ready to supply Q3-only tyres, but says teams are reluctant to change format

Although, the softer tire is so fragile this weekend it's a failure by Pirelli.

#2146 BackOnTop

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:51

Q: (Luis Fernando Ramos – Racing Magazine) To all of you: we have a kind of racing now which is all about managing and controlling your pace, whereas if you go back to 2008 with different aerodynamics and refuelling, it was a sprint all the time. Which type of racing was more challenging and which type of racing did you enjoy more?

LH: It’s quite easy: it’s more challenging now with the tyres that we have. For sure it’s much tougher for all of us, but it was definitely more enjoyable previously, I would say.
KR: It is what it is, really. We have to get our best out of it. Years go by and rules change. It’s not easy to get things right, last year and this year, but it’s the same for everybody and it makes a big challenge but it’s also part of F1.


Q: Which did you enjoy more?
KR: It makes no difference, because this is what we have and you’d better like it or do something else.

FA: It’s more challenging now. We maybe enjoy different times in Formula One; I enjoyed 2003/4 more with the V10s for example, but they are no longer. As Kimi said, we need to make the maximum of what we have now and try to enjoy it now also.


http://www.yallaf1.c.....8YallaF1.com)

Kimi Raikkonen showing the way on how to handle 'any' challenges related to Formula 1. :up:
Bitching doesn't get one anywhere, so better get in and enjoy the challenge... or get out and drive road cars.

Seriously, if F1 was 'easy' & predictable, Tom & Dick would have been teammates with Harry as reserve.

Edited by BackOnTop, 13 April 2013 - 12:55.


#2147 boldhakka

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:57

To be fair (I know that this is too much to ask in this thread), Hembery said the thing about the quali tyres in some interview I think late last year. I won't dig up the quote as it will be ignored anyway if if does not fit with the nerd rage story in this thread, like the new Räikkönen quotes someone posted.


How is that "to be fair"? In fact, it makes it worse for Pirelli. It suggests that this wasn't a one-off mistake. Did the teams and the FIA ask for these "qualifying tyres"? I doubt it. They went ahead and brought them anyway.

With in-season testing banned, and the tyres being so incredibly sensitive to how green the track is, the free practice sessions are now useless in testing new parts. Even setups are only reliable if they're tuned after FP2. The tyres really should not be this sensitive to how rubbered the track is. It's not avoidable of course - there will always be some sensitivity, but it's the degree that's unreasonable.

#2148 McLarenNo1

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 13:03

It is understandable it is more challenging for drivers to do something that is not in their natural instinct. Go as fast as you can slowly. Going too fast can hinder your race a lot. A lock up now is more dangerous. Drivers have often apologised for not being able to drive the car whether in practice or qualifying in this Pirelli era.

#2149 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 13:47

Is there someone from the F.I.A and Pirelli on here please because I need to have a word.

The qualifying was a disgrace, you've got fans at the track and all over the world watching, and that's the best "Show" you can come up with?

I have a solution, a very easy solution, and I have said this since the start of last year when we had similar scenarios in qualifying.

Give the teams an extra set of the softer compound for qualifying only, then take them away, and the top 3 places in qualifying get to choose the tyre they use for the race.

This gives clear incentives to teams to not save tyres, and to gain an advantage for putting on a "Show" in qualifying.

That would be alot better than what we have now, today was the worst it has been, and no doubt we'll see the same thing again this season.

That severely punishes those who qualify in the top 10 but not the top 3. Ridiculous. Lots of people will say they like it, but most people dont think things through.

Anyways, I've criticized the tire choices this weekend, but tomorrow has definitely been made a lot more interesting because of them.

Edited by Seanspeed, 13 April 2013 - 13:48.


#2150 PurpleHam

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 14:25

That severely punishes those who qualify in the top 10 but not the top 3. Ridiculous. Lots of people will say they like it, but most people dont think things through.

Anyways, I've criticized the tire choices this weekend, but tomorrow has definitely been made a lot more interesting because of them.

It would mean we have the top 3 or 4 teams battling it out, and choosing the tyres to start the race on would not be a massive advantage but it would be good to have the choice if you earned it.

What have the other top 10 teams who can't get in the top 3 got to lose?, they may aswell use the set they lose at the end of Qualifying anyway.

It would improve Qualifying x10, you are right, some people don't think things through.