59 replies to this topic

[Kubiccia]

I was looking into my onboard laps and found some odd/interesting. Eventhough the Mclarens are quicker than Schumacher in all corners of S1(therefore proving to have more downforce), they both are slower than Schumacher through Degner1(a downforce demanding corner).

If they have more downforce, the only explanation for going slower in Degner is bad driving, isn't it?

I made some screens so that you can see it. The caps are from Hamilton's P3 Q3 lap, Button's P2 Q3 lap, Schumacher's Q2 lap and Alonso's Q1 lap. Only Alonso is using hard tires, obviously.













Keep in mind that not only Schumacher and Alonso(specially Schumi) have cars with less downforce but they are not even pushing 100% as their laps are not from Q3, while Jenson and Lewis are on their best effort with their faster cars.

This makes me wonder that Mclaren had car to pole but the drivers didn't deliver it.

What's your thoughts about it?

Edited by Kubiccia, 13 October 2011 - 20:22.

[Bonaventura]

Vettel must have been driving bad, too .He was slower than Lewis at his first Q3 run
and only 0,009 sec faster in the end.

[BigCHrome]

Horrible driving, it's a shame the MP4-26 hasn't been blessed with an elite driver.

[Ragingjamaican]

I think winning here several times and getting poles around here, old man Schumacher knows the tricks around here.

As for Alonso, that guy is as fishy as ever so who knows!

Interesting to say the least. I do think the McLaren drivers should have had the front row between themselves, but I hardly doubt it's to do with one corner.

[Henrik B]

What's your thoughts about it?

Apart from the obvious explanation that they perhaps drove better than Schumacher in every other corner, but you are not nit-picking those?

Both Lewis and Button are in the last cap still on the track while Schumacher and Alonso have drifted outside the kerb, about a meter wider - my guess is that the Mclarens found that line (and apex speed) advantageous for Degner 2. As both McLarens have the same line, my guess would be that it's something they've discussed. Added to that, that is in atleast Lewis case his first banker lap, he said himself he kept a bit in reserve for his second attempt. Degner 1 is deadly if taken slightly too fast - many have been caught out on a wobble which means you'll never make Degner 2.

[BigCHrome]

BTW, it's also very possible that the on screen graphics are delayed by fractions of a second. It looks like they're on the throttle on entry and on the brakes on exit which doesn't make sense.

[P123]

That's a lot of effort Kubiccia, and whilst your poll options suggest your mind is made up it could be anything from gearing to suspension set up (McLaren is normally rock solid). A faster car is not always faster in every corner. That much is obvious, especially if you have access to the BBC's side by side quali lap comparisons this season.

I would also say your onscreen captures are not pinpoint accurate in their comparison. As you can see from the screenshots, F1 cars scrub off a lot of speed in a short distance.

Edited by P123, 13 October 2011 - 21:19.

[Atreiu]

We should be able to get times from 4, 5 or 6 sectors at each track instead of the regular 3. Plus as many speed traps as well.

Edited by Atreiu, 13 October 2011 - 21:43.

[Kubiccia]

Apart from the obvious explanation that they perhaps drove better than Schumacher in every other corner, but you are not nit-picking those?

Both Lewis and Button are in the last cap still on the track while Schumacher and Alonso have drifted outside the kerb, about a meter wider - my guess is that the Mclarens found that line (and apex speed) advantageous for Degner 2. As both McLarens have the same line, my guess would be that it's something they've discussed. Added to that, that is in atleast Lewis case his first banker lap, he said himself he kept a bit in reserve for his second attempt. Degner 1 is deadly if taken slightly too fast - many have been caught out on a wobble which means you'll never make Degner 2.

Yes, they were faster than Schumacher in all other corner but that is due to Mercedes having less downforce isn't it? If so, why would they lose in this particular corner? something to do with suspension as someone else suggested? I really don't know, I would like to listean from enginners in the forum who can explain it to us.

BTW, it's also very possible that the on screen graphics are delayed by fractions of a second. It looks like they're on the throttle on entry and on the brakes on exit which doesn't make sense.

yes, I also think the screens are delayed but ALL of them are, so the comparison is still valid. From the time I hear they braking and from the time it appears on the graphic, it takes more than 4 frames.

That's a lot of effort Kubiccia, and whilst your poll options suggest your mind is made up it could be anything from gearing to suspension set up (McLaren is normally rock solid). A faster car is not always faster in every corner. That much is obvious, especially if you have access to the BBC's side by side quali lap comparisons this season.

I would also say your onscreen captures are not pinpoint accurate in their comparison. As you can see from the screenshots, F1 cars scrub off a lot of speed in a short distance.

I left option for all kinds of view, haven't I?
Bad driving is a valid option, so is something with the car(suspension, as you suggested) or either something else.

Also, I can tell you that Alonso and Schumacher are faster than Mclarens throught all the corner. Jenson has a bit more speed than Schumi before the apex but it takes very little time and 95% of the times Schumi is faster than Jenson. Alonso is faster than both 100% of the corner, though. And this was his Q1 lap against Mclarens's best Q3 laps.

[Kubiccia]

We should be able to get times from 4, 5 or 6 sectors at each track instead of the regular 3. Plus as many speed traps as well.

I agree

PS: This is thread created with genuine intent. I would like to have technical explanations to why a car with more downforce can be slower in a certain aero corner. Because Lewis and Jenson have such similar speeds, it also makes me wonder it's not their fault but then again a technical explanation would be needed.

[PayasYouRace]

There's a lot more to it than just downforce. The suspension and weight transfer characteristics can have an effect too, for example. Steering geometry could be an issue too.

S1 in Suzuka is all long corners. They have long steering inputs and the car is settled in the turn. Degner 1 is a short corner, with a sharp steering input which only lasts a short time. The car isn't settled as it goes through. Perhaps the McLaren has a poorer dynamic performance but a superior static performance? i.e. It performs better when it can settle down into a steadier condition. In fact this could make sense because we've seen that McLaren have been strong at Shanghai, Nurburgring, Spa, etc. which all have many long, fast corners.

I'm amazed you went to all this effort for something with so many variables that you can't really draw any meaningful conclusions from it. I'm curious as to where you even got the idea to analyse this particular corner in so much detail.

[Ragingjamaican]

I'm amazed you went to all this effort for something with so many variables that you can't really draw any meaningful conclusions from it. I'm curious as to where you even got the idea to analyse this particular corner in so much detail.

Got to respect the man for it!

[Fortymark]

You´ll get an 10 for the effort!
Look at the steering input Alonso has compaired to the others..
Are you sure the speedo is in fully syncro? Schumacher seems to
be using a lower gear compaired to the others

[Kubiccia]

There's a lot more to it than just downforce. The suspension and weight transfer characteristics can have an effect too, for example. Steering geometry could be an issue too.

S1 in Suzuka is all long corners. They have long steering inputs and the car is settled in the turn. Degner 1 is a short corner, with a sharp steering input which only lasts a short time. The car isn't settled as it goes through. Perhaps the McLaren has a poorer dynamic performance but a superior static performance? i.e. It performs better when it can settle down into a steadier condition. In fact this could make sense because we've seen that McLaren have been strong at Shanghai, Nurburgring, Spa, etc. which all have many long, fast corners.

I'm amazed you went to all this effort for something with so many variables that you can't really draw any meaningful conclusions from it. I'm curious as to where you even got the idea to analyse this particular corner in so much detail.

that's a very good post. Thanks for bringing all this up.
I saw it by a chance and thought it was curious. I thought only downforce mattered and that the drivers had screwed it up but you brought many variables which are enlightening

Are you sure the speedo is in fully syncro? s

I can't know that. This is what we got from FOM

Edited by Kubiccia, 13 October 2011 - 22:52.

[Lee Nicolle]

Just an observation, often too much speed through one corner will actually slow you for the next. And since the Macs were the faster cars it probably helped.
Also diferent cars are faster in different spots ofcourse so really no conspiracy that I can see!

[fieraku]

Dang,Shumacher is a gear lower and way faster than the Macs, downforce or not.

[as65p]

Just an observation, often too much speed through one corner will actually slow you for the next. And since the Macs were the faster cars it probably helped.
Also diferent cars are faster in different spots ofcourse so really no conspiracy that I can see!

Add to that the lag/inaccuracy of the on-screen display and in terms of a valuable analysis we arrive at... nowhere.

[arknor]

Dang,Shumacher is a gear lower and way faster than the Macs, downforce or not.

schumacher was faster down the straight without DRS than massa was with DRS so he probably had his car setup for a much higher top speed

[DarthWillie]

great job putting it together. Dat doesn't look that useless to me actually, specially since they end up with almost the same speed, might be a good indication it isn't that wrong. Fascinating the difference in steeringinput also. Nice one to think about.

[Kubiccia]

great job putting it together. Dat doesn't look that useless to me actually, specially since they end up with almost the same speed, might be a good indication it isn't that wrong. Fascinating the difference in steeringinput also. Nice one to think about.

Yes, Alonso steers much. Hard tires might explain it, though. I have another Schumi onboard, this one from FP2, where he is also using hard tires and uses the same amount of steering as Alonso.

[gillesthegenius]

Great job.

I can remember Seb saying that he was able to observe how jumpy the tyres were at degner, when he stood there after crashing in FP1.

So pushing on the softer tyres in this corner was probably a no no. That probably explains why Alonso's speeds on the harder tyres are much higher than the other 3.

One probably can confirm whether its true by comparing the speeds of a given driver on both sets of tyres at this corner.

As for Alonso's steering input, it probably is the result of his preference for understeery cars; which I think the F150 italia is.

What surprises me though is how similar JB's and Lewis' steering inputs are at this corner. Beside, Lewis' sudden loss of speed at the apex, compared to JB is a little baffling too.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 14 October 2011 - 01:16.

[SpaMaster]

I don't think it is that simple. Downforce speed need not be the same in all corners. As others have said, gear ratios, suspension, acceleration, braking stability, DRS, etc. could have so much to do with it. You can see the McLaren cars are still on DRS while the other two aren't.

[AirWebber]

One possible explanation is the less aggressive camber McLaren choses to run in their cars.

More camber means more speed at the apex of tight curves.

[SNiko]

Both McLarens used DRS, maybe this is an explanation?

Interesting, that Lewis slowed down from 287 to 270 by pushing the brakes, and DRS is still enabled while it must be disabled after first touch to brakes.

Edited by SNiko, 14 October 2011 - 04:58.

[August]

7S1 in Suzuka is all long corners. They have long steering inputs and the car is settled in the turn. Degner 1 is a short corner, with a sharp steering input which only lasts a short time. The car isn't settled as it goes through. Perhaps the McLaren has a poorer dynamic performance but a superior static performance? i.e. It performs better when it can settle down into a steadier condition. In fact this could make sense because we've seen that McLaren have been strong at Shanghai, Nurburgring, Spa, etc. which all have many long, fast corners.7

Doesn't Merc have a short wheelbase?

Interesting, that Lewis slowed down from 287 to 270 by pushing the brakes, and DRS is still enabled while it must be disabled after first touch to brakes.

Was that rule only for races?

[SNiko]

Was that rule only for races?

No, this is how DRS works by design.

[Lights]

Answer: bump.

[tifosiMac]

Easy, Lewis and Jenson were on outlaps and Schuey was on a hotlap lol.

[ViMaMo]

I love these type of threads. Appreciate your effort !!

[Oho]

No, this is how DRS works by design.

Indeed as there really is no point in DRS under coasting let alone braking because with drag it also reduces downward force generated by the rear wing and hence grip.

But while at it, I know Heisenberg uncertainty principle was really conceived for quantum mechanical systems but the principle in principle should also apply here.

Edited by Oho, 14 October 2011 - 07:28.

[Henrik B]

Yes, they were faster than Schumacher in all other corner but that is due to Mercedes having less downforce isn't it? If so, why would they lose in this particular corner? something to do with suspension as someone else suggested? I really don't know, I would like to listean from enginners in the forum who can explain it to us.

I did have a possible explanation that you ignored. They compromise apex speed for a better line for Degner 2.

[Lights]

They compromise apex speed for a better line for Degner 2.

No such thing.

[PayasYouRace]

that's a very good post. Thanks for bringing all this up.
I saw it by a chance and thought it was curious. I thought only downforce mattered and that the drivers had screwed it up but you brought many variables which are enlightening

No problem. I would never call myself an expert but I have done just enough on the subject engineering of racing cars to know that it is much more complex and subtle than the layman might think at first.

Doesn't Merc have a short wheelbase?

I don't know. It could easily be a factor.

[Henrik B]

No such thing.

There's no difference between driving on the green stuff compared to the track?

Alonso and Schumacher are much further out. That can compromise braking into Degner 2. It's very often a mistake at 1 that causes crashes in 2.

[puxanando]

I love these type of threads. Appreciate your effort !!

+1

[Massa]

Yes, Alonso steers much. Hard tires might explain it, though. I have another Schumi onboard, this one from FP2, where he is also using hard tires and uses the same amount of steering as Alonso.

Alonso steers much because since 2007, all Ferrari car requires more imput to the steering wheel than others car. You can compare all Ferrari car since 2007 with others car at the same corner, you will notice that easily

This year, at Barcelona, at turn 3, the difference with others cars was edifiant, the same at Melbourne at turn 1.


It's a design choice by Ferrari.

Edited by Massa, 14 October 2011 - 08:55.

[gillesthegenius]

Here is a comparison between Vettel's and Button's final Q3 laps, as explained by Martin Brundell.

Just shows how much Seb wrestles with what clearly looks like a slower car to put in that stonking lap.

Forgive me if I sound like a fanboy, but that was one the very best of the many Vettel-esque qualy laps we have been treated to by this wundakid from Heppenheim in the last few years. It was Vintage Vettel at his very best.

The Mclaren drivers didnt lose that pole with bad driving, RBR's wundakid snatched it away from them with a lap of the highest caliber.

(MA)

[Tenmantaylor]

What a convoluted thread. There's so much more to apex speed than the downforce figure alone, especially at a unique corner like Degna 1. Degna 1 requires good downforce as much as any corner but it also requires a specific balance to be fast. It's such a short corner with a sharp inner rad that is almost solely reliant on how well the car responds to sharp inputs both laterelly and longitudinally. If you setup your car to suit Degna 1 more than, say, Spoon you are putting a massive deficit on your laptime as Degna 1 leads straight into Degna 2. Spoon leads onto a long straight where every k your carry out of the corner will be gained from all down the straight.

[flyer121]

Here is a comparison between Vettel's and Button's final Q3 laps, as explained by Martin Brundell.

Just shows how much Seb wrestles with what clearly looks like a slower car to put in that stonking lap.

Forgive me if I sound like a fanboy, but that was one the very best of the many Vettel-esque qualy laps we have been treated to by this wundakid from Heppenheim in the last few years. It was Vintage Vettel at his very best.

The Mclaren drivers didnt lose that pole with bad driving, RBR's wundakid snatched it away from them with a lap of the highest caliber.

(MA)

Vettel pulled that in the last chicane and straightlining the corner !

Amazing lap !! Looked like a slower car indeed..

[gillesthegenius]

Vettel pulled that in the last chicane and straightlining the corner !

Amazing lap !! Looked like a slower car indeed..

And the way he took that hairpin!!! Had he taken it the way Button took it, he probably would have lost atleast 2 tenths.

Amazing lap indeed.

(MA)

[Oho]

Alonso steers much because since 2007..

Well I think it has always been Alonso's style at corner entry, he applies a lot of steering lock, induces a bit of under steer and waits for the front to grip. I think it was pretty thoroughly discussed during his championship stint at Renault. Something about his corner entry style going against all conventional wisdom but still being devastatingly effective.

[nbhb]

Here is a comparison between Vettel's and Button's final Q3 laps, as explained by Martin Brundell.

Just shows how much Seb wrestles with what clearly looks like a slower car to put in that stonking lap.

Forgive me if I sound like a fanboy, but that was one the very best of the many Vettel-esque qualy laps we have been treated to by this wundakid from Heppenheim in the last few years. It was Vintage Vettel at his very best.

The Mclaren drivers didnt lose that pole with bad driving, RBR's wundakid snatched it away from them with a lap of the highest caliber.

(MA)

Yes, you sound like a fanboy, but indeed it was a great lap by Sebastian.

I voted other reasons. The McLiren drivers ain't no slouch

Edited by nbhb, 14 October 2011 - 09:56.

[gillesthegenius]

Yes, you sound like a fanboy, but indeed it was a great lap by Sebastian.

I voted other reasons. The McLiren drivers ain't no slouch

Then, hope you forgive me for it.;)

[Jejking]

Alonso steers much because since 2007, all Ferrari car requires more imput to the steering wheel than others car. You can compare all Ferrari car since 2007 with others car at the same corner, you will notice that easily

This year, at Barcelona, at turn 3, the difference with others cars was edifiant, the same at Melbourne at turn 1.


It's a design choice by Ferrari.

It isn't just down on the Ferrari. Alonso has a driving technique that, in short, enables him to use a hefty (heftier) steering wheel input than other drivers without going into massive understeer or overheating the front tyres. I suspect he likes it not as much as Schumacher, who likes a light rear plus snappy front and then putting in many little corrections in corners. It's a bit different but I still suspect Alonso has a reasonably oversteering car and heavy front to get him through the turns.

Source: some edition of F1Racing where they did a story on him. A Dutch one from somewhere around 2007.

Edited by Jejking, 14 October 2011 - 12:17.

[Tenmantaylor]

Alonso steers much because since 2007, all Ferrari car requires more imput to the steering wheel than others car. You can compare all Ferrari car since 2007 with others car at the same corner, you will notice that easily

This year, at Barcelona, at turn 3, the difference with others cars was edifiant, the same at Melbourne at turn 1.


It's a design choice by Ferrari.

Yeah, I noticed this when Alonso joined Ferrari. Most corners require him to put it at least 10-20% more steering input to achieve the same 'tyre angle'.

[Tenmantaylor]

It isn't just down on the Ferrari. Alonso has a driving technique that, in short, enables him to use a hefty (heftier) steering wheel input than other drivers without going into massive understeer or overheating the front tyres. I suspect he likes it not as much as Schumacher, who likes a light rear plus snappy front and then putting in many little corrections in corners. It's a bit different but I still suspect Alonso has a reasonably oversteering car and heavy front to get him through the turns.

Source: some edition of F1Racing where they did a story on him. A Dutch one from somewhere around 2007.

I think you're getting car setup confused with steering wheel ratios. How far you have to turn the steering wheel to achieve a steering angle at the front tyres has nothing to do with car balance, under steer or all those things you are talking about. It's more about driver preference IMO and the packaging of the steering rack components in the car. you can make a car under steer just as easily with a lock to lock of 45deg as you could 270deg. Well, if I were being picky I'd argue a shorter rack would allow you to achieve under steer quicker but with less feel at the sweet spot. Concersely a bigger lock to lock would in theory make it take longer to reach the lock required but the sweet spot may be bigger. There are pros and cons to both approaches but no 'ideal'.

In short, the steering wheel input doesn't affect setup and grip levels. Even in his Renault days Alonso used to throw the car into corners with bags of understeer but this was more a result of the heftier front tyres that Michelin supplied and taking advantage of that.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 14 October 2011 - 14:41.

[Kubiccia]

I did have a possible explanation that you ignored. They compromise apex speed for a better line for Degner 2.

I'm gonna do a comparison in it to satisfy your doubt.

Alonso steers much because since 2007, all Ferrari car requires more imput to the steering wheel than others car. You can compare all Ferrari car since 2007 with others car at the same corner, you will notice that easily
This year, at Barcelona, at turn 3, the difference with others cars was edifiant, the same at Melbourne at turn 1.
It's a design choice by Ferrari.

Ferrari steering ratio is lesser than the others from long time ago, as you said. But, it is also down to understeer, I think. Schumacher is using more steering lock in other onboards with hard tires:

What a convoluted thread. There's so much more to apex speed than the downforce figure alone, especially at a unique corner like Degna 1. Degna 1 requires good downforce as much as any corner but it also requires a specific balance to be fast. It's such a short corner with a sharp inner rad that is almost solely reliant on how well the car responds to sharp inputs both laterelly and longitudinally. If you setup your car to suit Degna 1 more than, say, Spoon you are putting a massive deficit on your laptime as Degna 1 leads straight into Degna 2. Spoon leads onto a long straight where every k your carry out of the corner will be gained from all down the straight.

what do you mean by that? Short and sharp angle to turn? Also, I will compare them at Spoon later.

[AirWebber]

Answer: bump.

This

McLaren uses a very stiff front suspension setting.

Therefore the Maca boys have to lift more to avoid loosing control after the bump.

[Ellios]

I checked the BAD DRIVING BY LEWIS HAMILTON MCLAREN NUMBER TWO 2007 option! (sure thats what it said)...... it's Friday, I've got pizza and a few beers, no more work til Monday, a few hours to kill before the Grand Prix - time to hit teh interweb forums and share opinions!

[BigCHrome]

Here is a comparison between Vettel's and Button's final Q3 laps, as explained by Martin Brundell.

Just shows how much Seb wrestles with what clearly looks like a slower car to put in that stonking lap.

Forgive me if I sound like a fanboy, but that was one the very best of the many Vettel-esque qualy laps we have been treated to by this wundakid from Heppenheim in the last few years. It was Vintage Vettel at his very best.

The Mclaren drivers didnt lose that pole with bad driving, RBR's wundakid snatched it away from them with a lap of the highest caliber.

(MA)

/facepalm

Or maybe Vettel was ragged and made it much harder on himself than it should've been? Or that the McLaren works better if you're smooth?

Well I think it has always been Alonso's style at corner entry, he applies a lot of steering lock, induces a bit of under steer and waits for the front to grip. I think it was pretty thoroughly discussed during his championship stint at Renault. Something about his corner entry style going against all conventional wisdom but still being devastatingly effective.

No, he doesn't do that anymore. That worked only because of the Michelin tires.

Edited by BigCHrome, 14 October 2011 - 18:26.