144 replies to this topic

[F.M.]

According to AMuS, Mercedes is developing a FW F-duct for their 2012 car, which they have tested in Suzuka



When I first read it, I was pretty sceptical as this hole in the nose is normally used for cooling the cockpit and its electronics, however there are some interesting pictures from Suzuka:

The hole features a splitter


Extra cooling slot on the nose, plus closed of tub. So the air from the nose can't reach the cockpit/electronics


Supposed outlet (Edit: slots are more the inside and on the underside of the wing, see drawing)


Driven both open and closed off


Inspection


http://www.auto-moto...12-4051930.html

Don't feel like translating it myself, so parts of google translate:

Normally, the oval hole in the tip of the nose glued shut MGPW02. In Suzuka it was open. You could see a split in the middle hole. Through this air is introduced into the front wings. Example for this system is the F-duct in the rear wing, which came into fashion in the preseason.

The air is then passed via a pipe system from the front wing stilts in the right and left of the main sheet. If the back pressure a certain amount, the air blows on the underside of the wing with a total of four slots. The driver, the system must not like the F-duct aktvieren manually in the previous year.

The trick to flow under the wing towards the underbody is calmed. By how much, about the experts disagree. McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh is estimated between five and eight km / h. He notes, however, that this technique is difficult to get a grip. Mercedes could have pulled so early with his development beginning in the lottery."If you make a start now, is already late."

Whitmarsh believes that other teams now will also start developing this technology. The technical regulations are so restrictive that you have to use every little loophole.

Edited by F.M., 18 October 2011 - 10:07.

[F.M.]

Edit: fourth picture is not the outlet. The wing has slots on the underside as pictured in the drawing

Edited by F.M., 18 October 2011 - 10:10.

[Clatter]

Ok I can see how this might condition the airflow, but it's not an F-duct.

[F.M.]

Ok I can see how this might condition the airflow, but it's not an F-duct.

Based on the same principle, that's why they (and I) call it F-duct

Edited by F.M., 18 October 2011 - 10:10.

[Clatter]

Based on the same principle, that's why they (and I) call it F-duct

But it's not really is it? The F-duct was so called, not because it pumped air to the wing, but because it was driver controlled. This isn't as that's against the rules.

[RoutariEnjinu]

If it works, and it really is a static system that changes dynamically as speed increases, it's GENIUS.

[muramasa]

Cool.

But I wonder how long it will take for them to ban it...

[arknor]

Cool.

But I wonder how long it will take for them to ban it...

probabky before the season starts now everyone knows about it , or it gets copied before the first race anyway

Edited by arknor, 18 October 2011 - 10:28.

[bogi]

How the hell you trigger separation?

[Fastcake]

Cool.

But I wonder how long it will take for them to ban it...

Is there any reason to ban it? It's not driver controlled.

[wingwalker]

If there is a flap that can be opened or closed how can it pass the no moveable aero devices rule?

[GlenP]

I think passive fluid switches like that will probably stay legal, because all over the car there are features which only work when the air reaches a certain speed/energy, which is effectively the same thing.

What I can see them banning is ducting within bodywork that delivers air to another place, although that is problematic because you obviously have cooling air ducts and it would be tricky to differentiate between a practical cooling purpose and an aerodynamic device.

[pRy]

Sort of gives the game away a bit running a part like that in October. I doubt it's going to make much difference otherwise surely they'd have saved it for testing.

[GeoffR]

Could other teams also be using similar systems? I seem to recall a number of comments regarding the cables/pipes in the Red Bull front wing when Vettel went off in wet practice at Turkey (?). Nearly all the cars appear to have the hole in the nose these days.

[F.M.]

Because it's passive it is way more difficult to get it right than the driver activated F-duct. Mercedes has a huge advantage by testing it this early.

Remeber how much McLaren were experimenting with the F-duct in pre-season testing and how long it took teams to get it right? This is something that is very difficult to test properly in a windtunnel, you need to test it on track to evaluate it.

[Timstr11]

Mercedes already has a lot of experience with a passive F-duct, as their rear wing system from last year was supposedly passive.

[One]

a decoy horse?

[Coops3]

I don't get it. Why divert the air, only to direct it back in the direction it was originally travelling anyway?

[Owen]

It's not even April 1st.

[Massa]

If it works, and it really is a static system that changes dynamically as speed increases, it's GENIUS.

Yes, well done Mercedes

[GlenP]

I don't get it. Why divert the air, only to direct it back in the direction it was originally travelling anyway?

I think the idea might be that below a certain speed no air would emerge through the convoluted passage, but when the magic speed is reached it is then forced through and starts flowing, stalling that element of the front wing, or maybe changing the condition and flow of the air further back on or under the car.

[Coops3]

I think the idea might be that below a certain speed no air would emerge through the convoluted passage, but when the magic speed is reached it is then forced through and starts flowing, stalling that element of the front wing, or maybe changing the condition and flow of the air further back on or under the car.

Ah ok, cheers. That's plausible I guess.

[One]

Yes, if it works, i operates in the difference of air pressure between the tip of the nose and the bottom of the wing. Tip of the nose has high pressure point so if the ducting through the nose and CENTER SECTION OF FIA MANDATORY WING has a suitable pattern, perhaps up to certain level no air can penetrate the system. I guess at some point, the slit under the wing begin to suck. More interestingly, how should this work behind a race car in a close battle? I guess it has less pressure, so it does not work, hence higher front down force. out of slip stream, tata.... less drug.... Should it be drivable after all these, ... it the things to test.

Why should it be so difficult to make one of those just tomorrow in a Formula One garage where full of phD's are hanging out?

[GlenP]

Good point about the dirty air closing it. Maybe.

[KiloWatt]

What idiot leaked this to the press? I hope he (or she, I'm not sexist) gets fired and never gets another job in motorsport.

[puxanando]

What idiot leaked this to the press? I hope he (or she, I'm not sexist) gets fired and never gets another job in motorsport.

Perhaps we will have an interesting winter with a lot of "spying"...........

[One]

What idiot leaked this to the press? I hope he (or she, I'm not sexist) gets fired and never gets another job in motorsport.

George did it?

[King Six]

I bet that Mercedes nose logo has something to do with it, why the hell would it be there, it just juts out of the bodywork, they might aswell have the old style flip up one that chavs like to nick.


Or not, it's Mercedes after all, sometimes Aerodynamicists just need to take one for the team.

Seriously though, I remember noticing something odd with the ducting at the front of the W02 before but it never registered that they could be doing this.

[F.M.]

What idiot leaked this to the press? I hope he (or she, I'm not sexist) gets fired and never gets another job in motorsport.

Doens't really matter, even without it being published it is known to the teams; Whitmarsh is commenting about it in the article and he probably wouldn't be saying things about it if a journalist just pops up and asks him what he thinks of the Mercedes FW F-duct when he knows nothing about it.

[Ferrari2183]

The media is a F1 teams worst enemy. Expect everybody to start developing this asap. It is actually quite smart.

[KirilVarbanov]

Such a cool thing that early? I doubt. To the same extent I doubt that the teams aren't using something like this already.

[engel]

The media is a F1 teams worst enemy. Expect everybody to start developing this asap. It is actually quite smart.

Alternatively Ross is testing the waters with a simplistic system he can get through as legal then replace with a much more sophisticated solution based on the same principle ;)

[ivand911]

At least Mercedes give us something to talk about.

[johnmhinds]

I bet that Mercedes nose logo has something to do with it, why the hell would it be there, it just juts out of the bodywork, they might aswell have the old style flip up one that chavs like to nick.


Or not, it's Mercedes after all, sometimes Aerodynamicists just need to take one for the team.

Seriously though, I remember noticing something odd with the ducting at the front of the W02 before but it never registered that they could be doing this.

Huh? The Mercedes logo on the nose is just a decal. It doesn't stick up out of the nose.

[FTATRWeSaluteYou]

This is why Ross Brawn wants DRS banned. He is getting desperate after his failures for so many years, and getting schooled by Newey.

[Spa95]

Huh? The Mercedes logo on the nose is just a decal. It doesn't stick up out of the nose.

http://forums.autosp...p;#entry4893970

[GlenP]

It is airbrushed on! There was even a BBC build up show where they showed it being done.

[zelpre]

Auto Motor und Sport said McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh is aware of the innovation and the head-start now enjoyed by Mercedes.

“If you make a start now, it’s already too late,” he said, predicting that other teams will nonetheless also experiment with the idea.

English:
http://www.yallaf1.c...-duct-for-2012/

[Timstr11]

Mercedes’ new idea is to redirect more undisturbed air through the floor of the car.

It's to primarily stall the front wing. Not to redirect air under the floor.
After a year of explanations on how the F-duct works, some F1 journo's still don't have a clue.

[GlenP]

It's to primarily stall the front wing. Not to redirect air under the floor.
After a year of explanations on how the F-duct works, some F1 journo's still don't have a clue.

I wouldn't be so confident about that. Just because it has f-duct-like qualities doesn't mean it does the same thing. That's a pretty small bit of wing that it is stalling. Plus the front wing's proliferation of details are as much about conditioning airflow as they are about making downforce.

[johnmhinds]

The logo does seem to be raised in this shot:


So I stand corrected.

Edited by johnmhinds, 18 October 2011 - 14:10.

[GlenP]

Oh. Is that the launch car or something though? I'm positive it is painted on the race cars.

[Spa95]

It is airbrushed on! There was even a BBC build up show where they showed it being done.

They used an old Brawn (or even Honda) nose cone for that build up feature!

Edited by Spa95, 18 October 2011 - 14:26.

[zelpre]

The logo does seem to be raised in this shot:


So I stand corrected.

WTF?

What about this then:
- look 2:27

[zelpre]

They used an old Brawn (or even Honda) nose cone for that build up feature!

Oh yes! You're right. The nose is more oval...

I still hardly believe that the mercedes logo is actually 3D...

[GlenP]

They used an old Brawn (or even Honda) nose cone for that build up feature!

OK. Why the rolleyes?

[zelpre]

The logo does seem to be raised in this shot:


So I stand corrected.

It is painted here:

Edited by zelpre, 18 October 2011 - 14:55.

[cheapracer]

This is why Ross Brawn wants DRS banned. He is getting desperate after his failures for so many years, and getting schooled by Newey.

Did you mean the 2009 WCC and WDC winning team owner Ross Brawn or Ross Brown?

[OfficeLinebacker]

That is so weird how it's a decal that has height in some cases and in others it's painted on. Surely there's a very good and important reason for this?

[smitten]

That is so weird how it's a decal that has height in some cases and in others it's painted on. Surely there's a very good and important reason for this?

Maybe it depends whether is is being raced or used for promotions?