129 replies to this topic

[TeamSideways]

http://www.racer.com...article/219407/

some interesting information about setups and drivers : hamilton, button and some info about hydraulics system that came with cosworth engines in 2010 hrt,lotus and virgin used it which failed giving traction and stability during high speed corners.
it says also that the team arrives on a weekend with 90 percent of the car setup done in the simulator which surprises me alot

Edited by TeamSideways, 18 December 2011 - 15:56.

[Andy865]

Traction in high speed corners due to engine hydraulics. Erm.....

[CrucialXtreme]

Traction in high speed corners due to engine hydraulics. Erm.....

Yep that's correct. The hydraulic system they used didn't have enough pressure to lock the differential at certain loads limiting traction & stability in high speed corners. The article is quite clear and spot on in this regard. If that is in fact a characteristic of the hydraulic system that came with the Cosworth's.

[H2H]

Yep that's correct. The hydraulic system they used didn't have enough pressure to lock the differential at certain loads limiting traction & stability in high speed corners. The article is quite clear and spot on in this regard. If that is in fact a characteristic of the hydraulic system that came with the Cosworth's.

Indeed. Imagine a car with a rear differential locked at the entry, meaning that both rear wheels move at the same speed with the same torque resulting in heavy understeer. But on the other hand a (rear) differential locked at a certain load can give better traction out of a corner. Missing that and the ability to use this way to influence the car's behavior can means also less pontential stability at certain loads.

The interesting bit is of course how much Paddy tries to impress into reader the amount of tolerance Lewis is said to have with heavy oversteer, which can be part of a great driver. There is certainly a lot of truth in that one, although it is of course incredibly difficult to compare that with all the other drivers in different cars, even for Paddy if he is sincere. Mark Hughes repeats also his theory that RBR is to some degree more tyre-limited due to the sheer potential pace, especially through fast corners with a lot of load, which might be true for corners. Personally I agree somewhat with that, as with the statement that Vettel had to tollerate a understeery car more then he would have liked, as he generally prefers an oversteery one. It is of course a testimony of the adaptability of the team and the driver to still extract so much out of the car, getting the setup wrong only in a few cases (Germany, Japan) and often clawing back a lot of time compared to other teams from Friday till Q3.

Edited by H2H, 18 December 2011 - 15:19.

[TeamSideways]

it says also that glock has a rally style driving which is interesting for an F1 driver

[Andy865]

Probably should have expanded upon my post, i was only confused as these asthmatic things arent traction limited in any corner above 4th gear. I see it means more of a grip loading.

Its a very good Article though. Thanks for sharing.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Does he have a co-driver or his hands really high on the wheel or something? Handbrake?

[Trust]

it says also that glock has a rally style driving which is interesting for an F1 driver

I think Keke also had that style.

[TeamSideways]

pat fry siad that mclaren changed the way they setup the car to more aggressive way and highlights ferrari problem in 2011

So elementary is Hamilton's ease with this trait, it caused McLaren to rethink the range in which its car could be set up. Pat Fry, now Ferrari's technical director, was at McLaren back in the winter of 2007-'08 and working with Lowe in getting out of the setup loop they had evolved over the years.

“We spent the whole of that winter changing the basic traits of our cars so that we'd no longer be so limited by understeer in slow corners,” recalls Fry, “and it took us all that time to get it to the point where we could run it like McLaren does now.

“At Ferrari, we're still in the same loop as McLaren was before we changed – and in 2011 that's hurt us as the blown diffusers have become more powerful. They generate a lot more grip obviously, but it's at the rear, so you need to have in your setup toolbox something that compensates for that, not just increase your understeer. And we've sort of run out of options at that end.”

[TeamSideways]

Does he have a co-driver or his hands really high on the wheel or something? Handbrake?

yeah , they could fit a handbrake in that virgin , it isn't against the rules , is it ?

[handel]

I dont trust pat fry as ex rival engineer. I wish Ferrari would get rid of him, and install a proper Italian.

You mean engineers either have to stay with one team forever? Or you just don't trust him? Being Italian doesn't make an engineer instantly more technically adept. Struggling to grasp your point...

[nimbus111]

nice read, thanks for the link.

[Francesc]

Thanks for sharing, it was a good read.

[Bloggsworth]

Interesting remark by Dave Greenwood - "The great drivers – Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Michael Schumacher – all had that ability."

[Bloggsworth]

Does he have a co-driver or his hands really high on the wheel or something? Handbrake?

Rally drivers "create" turn-in oversteer, most track drivers don't like the instability this causes; remember, it happens at far higher speeds in a racing car on tarmac. and takes a lot more catching.

[TeamSideways]

i always felt bad for the drivers who crashed in practice and thought that whole weekend is screwed for them because they dont complete the program and would't know how to setup the car for a race. turns out that i am the one who is being screwed

[TeamSideways]

Rally drivers "create" turn-in oversteer, most track drivers don't like the instability this causes; remember, it happens at far higher speeds in a racing car on tarmac. and takes a lot more catching.

i mean where does this style come from ? did he race in rallies before f1 ?

[Snic]

Video of Timo Glock power-oversteering his car. Don't even think I've seen Lewis do any of these.

And that's pretty damn impressive knowing how hard it must be to generate and control oversteer with the insane amount of grip the cars have these days

[sosidge]

Interesting article, particularly for the engineer interviews - it's rare that you actually get quotes from them about the nitty-gritty of contemporary race preparation and driving styles.

Shame that it is written through Mark Hughes' usual "Hamilton is the GOAT" filter.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Rally drivers "create" turn-in oversteer, most track drivers don't like the instability this causes; remember, it happens at far higher speeds in a racing car on tarmac. and takes a lot more catching.

Next you'll be telling me racing drivers don't like understeer.

[thuGG]

Video of Timo Glock power-oversteering his car. Don't even think I've seen Lewis do any of these.

And that's pretty damn impressive knowing how hard it must be to generate and control oversteer with the insane amount of grip the cars have these days

Nice! But I guess it's not very good for Pirellis. Still can't believe he choosed the Virgin drive, he deserves much better.

[sofarapartguy]

Video of Timo Glock power-oversteering his car. Don't even think I've seen Lewis do any of these.

And that's pretty damn impressive knowing how hard it must be to generate and control oversteer with the insane amount of grip the cars have these days

Damn, never mentioned this, he is crazy Anyway, I don't think THAT is the way moder F1 cars work best.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 19 December 2011 - 13:21.

[KirilVarbanov]

Nice read, I was actually surprised to see the silicon sprays mentioned.

[TeamSideways]

we need more of this insight technical info articles

[TheBunk]

Interesting article, particularly for the engineer interviews - it's rare that you actually get quotes from them about the nitty-gritty of contemporary race preparation and driving styles.

Shame that it is written through Mark Hughes' usual "Hamilton is the GOAT" filter.

What is a goat?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Greatest Of All Time.

[nada12]

Interesting article, particularly for the engineer interviews - it's rare that you actually get quotes from them about the nitty-gritty of contemporary race preparation and driving styles.

I don't get why no reporter ever bothers to sit down with a guy like Paddy Lowe and have a detailed talk about the driving styles of Alonso, Hamilton, Button etc. I can't imagine he'd reject the idea, driving styles aren't trade secrets.

[TeamSideways]

I don't get why no reporter ever bothers to sit down with a guy like Paddy Lowe and have a detailed talk about the driving styles of Alonso, Hamilton, Button etc. I can't imagine he'd reject the idea, driving styles aren't trade secrets.

because most of them except ex drivers and excited ones like Martin brundle are not interested in technical information and feel the majority of f1 fans are not interested in tech info

[TeamSideways]

Greatest Of All Time.

couldn't guess that

[anbeck]

it says also that the team arrives on a weekend with 90 percent of the car setup done in the simulator which surprises me alot

I'm surprised that it isn't a lot more! I would have thought 97%, as I have rarely seen mechanics doing as much setup work as they seemed to do in the early 1990s during the practice sessions. I always thought that the only thing done at the track is changing the front wing angle to adjust the balance for environmental factors, tyre behavior and the driver's taste. The rest is spit out by the computer in the factory... such a shame!

[H2H]

I'm surprised that it isn't a lot more! I would have thought 97%, as I have rarely seen mechanics doing as much setup work as they seemed to do in the early 1990s during the practice sessions. I always thought that the only thing done at the track is changing the front wing angle to adjust the balance for environmental factors, tyre behavior and the driver's taste. The rest is spit out by the computer in the factory... such a shame!

This one catched my eyes too, but I do think it depends on the approach of the teams. RBR seem to adjust and finetune often a great deal during Friday and Saturday, at least if we believe what the team and the drivers say. Overall the margin is surly smaller then, let us say, even twenty years ago and it is very seldom to observe a car on Sunday with an really screwed up setup. Maybe this is one of the (many) reason why the teams are closer together.

Edited by H2H, 20 December 2011 - 08:08.

[wrcva]

we need more of this insight technical info articles

nice read, thanks for the link.

[TheBunk]

couldn't guess that

Well, usually Mark Hughes is so full of it his eyes look brown, and this article is no different in suggestive bull excrement but still, you could explain it as a covered up love message to Button.

After all, if Lewis drove a setup wich was faster than Buttons, and Button still managed to beat Lewis, then Jenson perhaps is the greatest of all times?

[ArtShelley]

Probably should have expanded upon my post, i was only confused as these asthmatic things arent traction limited in any corner above 4th gear. I see it means more of a grip loading.

Its a very good Article though. Thanks for sharing.

You're confusing it with applying traction in a straight line. Of course in a straight line, the cars are not traction limited above 4th gear. But in a corner where there is lateral load, traction is governed by the grip circle. The more the lateral load, the less the room for traction.

[ArtShelley]

Interesting article, particularly for the engineer interviews - it's rare that you actually get quotes from them about the nitty-gritty of contemporary race preparation and driving styles.

Shame that it is written through Mark Hughes' usual "Hamilton is the GOAT" filter.

Which part?

Or do you think that Hughes should have left out Paddy's quotes simply because you don't like Hamilton?

[Paco]

The only thing I find surprising is how much Michael is still struggling to get up to speed. I still don't get it .. he was always about feel and yet he's been unable to feel his way through the new tires. I wonder how much it has to do with what seems a bad simulator that Merc had so his sim work wasn't translating to track work.

[TeamSideways]

Well, usually Mark Hughes is so full of it his eyes look brown, and this article is no different in suggestive bull excrement but still, you could explain it as a covered up love message to Button.

After all, if Lewis drove a setup wich was faster than Buttons, and Button still managed to beat Lewis, then Jenson perhaps is the greatest of all times?

exactly, you could argue that you should post this in hamilton thread

[ArtShelley]

Well, usually Mark Hughes is so full of it his eyes look brown, and this article is no different in suggestive bull excrement but still, you could explain it as a covered up love message to Button.

After all, if Lewis drove a setup wich was faster than Buttons, and Button still managed to beat Lewis, then Jenson perhaps is the greatest of all times?

If only you could put aside your Lewis man-crush for a moment, you might actually be able to enjoy the technical aspects and insight of that article.

[TeamSideways]

If only you could put aside your Lewis man-crush for a moment, you might actually be able to enjoy the technical aspects and insight of that article.

fair enough

[DrProzac]

I'm surprised that it isn't a lot more! I would have thought 97%, as I have rarely seen mechanics doing as much setup work as they seemed to do in the early 1990s during the practice sessions. I always thought that the only thing done at the track is changing the front wing angle to adjust the balance for environmental factors, tyre behavior and the driver's taste. The rest is spit out by the computer in the factory... such a shame!

I think they don't have to work hard to change some suspension settings to some degree. Plus I guess they do most of the work between the sessions.

That "10%", of course.

Edited by DrProzac, 20 December 2011 - 19:50.

[TheBunk]

http://www.racer.com...article/219407/

some interesting information about setups and drivers : hamilton, button and some info about hydraulics system that came with cosworth engines in 2010 hrt,lotus and virgin used it which failed giving traction and stability during high speed corners.
it says also that the team arrives on a weekend with 90 percent of the car setup done in the simulator which surprises me alot

I think the only new thing in that article, is the story about the cosworth engines hydraulics. The rest is very predictable one-eyed opinion and gathered some quotes to back up his claim. Theres a lot more to be said about setup, drivers preferences and what style is better or not. I also dont read a letter about Vettels superior style, alonso or Prost, the 4 times champ, 40+ race winner who deffinitly did not like oversteery cars at all.

[TeamSideways]

I think the only new thing in that article, is the story about the cosworth engines hydraulics. The rest is very predictable one-eyed opinion and gathered some quotes to back up his claim. Theres a lot more to be said about setup, drivers preferences and what style is better or not. I also dont read a letter about Vettels superior style, alonso or Prost, the 4 times champ, 40+ race winner who deffinitly did not like oversteery cars at all.

this article dont praise a certain mr lewis hamitlon , it justs mention it

[TheBunk]

this article dont praise a certain mr lewis hamitlon , it justs mention it

To the contrary. Its another ass kissing of Hamiltons backside by mark hughes, your impartial motoring jounalist (with years of experience and several books to his name, he usually puts under his writings), with several quotes from paddy lowe, another light of impartiality, and former mclaren man pat fry.
And all reads very predictable, no real news and, frankly, boring.

[Bonaventura]

To the contrary. Its another ass kissing of Hamiltons backside by mark hughes, your impartial motoring jounalist (with years of experience and several books to his name, he usually puts under his writings), with several quotes from paddy lowe, another light of impartiality, and former mclaren man pat fry.
And all reads very predictable, no real news and, frankly, boring.

Don't read it.

[teejay]

But if he doesnt read how will he get the chance to slag off anything remotely Lewis related?

How will he feel good about himself?

[TheBunk]

But if he doesnt read how will he get the chance to slag off anything remotely Lewis related?

How will he feel good about himself?

I think the criticism is in the continuous hyperbole bullshit article designed to lift mr hamilton to heights wich very much remain to be seen if he ever reaches them. On top of that it is very selective, with very biased sources. And, again, not a word about the current double world champion, youngest ever, and how he managed to beat the divine like qualities of mr hamilton race in and race out.

[Kvothe]

I think the criticism is in the continuous hyperbole bullshit article designed to lift mr hamilton to heights wich very much remain to be seen if he ever reaches them. On top of that it is very selective, with very biased sources. And, again, not a word about the current double world champion, youngest ever, and how he managed to beat the divine like qualities of mr hamilton race in and race out.

I though it was quite clear how he managed to beat Mr Hamilton no?

Cough *RB7* Cough

Vettel has been universally praised by everyone including Mark Hughes, yet we have one article that mentions the driving style of Lewis taken from a quote Paddy Lowe made years ago, and you fly into an inconsolable hissyfit about how unfair life is that Vettel also isn't included, whilst taking more pot shots at Lewis. I guess in a way you could say i feel pity for you.

Edited by Kvothe, 21 December 2011 - 03:40.

[TheBunk]

I though it was quite clear how he managed to beat Mr Hamilton no?

Cough *RB7* Cough

Vettel has been univerally praised by everyone including Mark Hughes, yet we have one article that mentions the driving style of Lewis taken from a quote Paddy Lowe made years ago, and you fly into an inconsolable hissyfit about how unfair life is that Vettel also isn't included, whilst taking more pot shots at Lewis. I guess in a way you could say i feel pity for you.

A hissyfit? More of the hyperbole! Stop that already!

I just stated I dont think the article brings any news, and is more of the same from Hughes. If you were looking for the lets praise and only praise lewis-articles-thread you came to the wrong forum.

[Kvothe]

A hissyfit? More of the hyperbole! Stop that already!

I just stated I dont think the article brings any news, and is more of the same from Hughes. If you were looking for the lets praise and only praise lewis-articles-thread you came to the wrong forum.

No i wasn't, but clearly you were looking for the Vettel ones.

~Discussion over.

Edited by Kvothe, 21 December 2011 - 01:13.

[TheBunk]

No i wasn't, but clearly you were looking for the Vettel ones.

~Discussion over.

Again you try to twist this into something I never claimed. Stop doing that!

I only said when hyperboling setups and driver preferences, its very weird vettel - who just crushed mr hamiltons hyped set up preferences - isnt even mentioned. Its outright hilarious that the article goes on about how hamilton uses a superior car set up, yet here you are claiming Vettel drive a superior car to Hamilton. Why dont you take your adoration to the appropriate websites instead of cherry picking through comments getting all upset when one does not agree with yet another hamilton love fest from a questionable motoring 'journalist.'