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Buttons sensitivity to the tyres


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#1 Disgrace

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:43

This is a long running theme so what is behind it? More frequently than other drivers, the tyres seem to be either destroying his weekend or he is making it work better than anyone else. Entire weekends where he is nowhere as a result:

Silverstone 2009 (Bridgestone).
Hungary 2010 (Bridgestone).
Korea 2010.
Valencia 2011.
Malaysia 2012.
Spain 2012.

He was often genuinely quicker than Hamilton throughout last year and he has looked like a miracle worker on occasion:

Monaco 2009 (Bridgestone).
Australia 2010 (Bridgestone).
Hungary 2011.
Japan 2011.
Australia 2012.

Is Jenson lacking adaptability or is it more often than not a positive aspect of his driving?

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#2 johnmhinds

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:49

All drivers have off weekends.

And a handful of bad races from 3+ years (with multiple tyre types) isn't really any kind of trend.

Edited by johnmhinds, 13 May 2012 - 14:50.


#3 TheBunk

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:50

In hindsight, maybe he better did go do that mugello test, and learn about these tyres.

#4 BigCHrome

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:51

Whenever he's not fast he just blames the tires.

P.S. In Hungary he was gifted the win by Whitmarsh when they gave Hamilton an idiotic 4 stop strategy.

#5 Disgrace

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:58

And a handful of bad races from 3+ years (with multiple tyre types) isn't really any kind of trend.


Not a trend, but tell me of another driver on the grid whose variety in performances, both bad and good, can be almost solely attributed to getting performance out of the tyres in recent years.

Edited by Disgrace, 13 May 2012 - 14:58.


#6 Crafty

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:59

Button can't deal with a car that isn't to his liking. His driving is smooth and very precise, if the car doesn't respond to that he's lost because he can't adapt.

Lewis just grabs a car by the scruff of the neck and drives it however he can get a good time out of it.
Schumacher in his prime subconsciously changed how he drove to match the car.
Ayrton could too, but also he understood enough to pinpoint the issue and relate that to his engineers so they could change the setup to suit. Rumour has it he could feel minor changes in tyre pressure and often asked for a small pressure change in a specific tyre (although that could be placebo effect).

For whatever reason Button struggles to do that, or at least to the same level that other drivers can.


#7 Sevach

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:00

When Button likes the balance of the car he can do wonderfull things in terms of saving tyres.

When he doesn't... it's ugly.

#8 johnmhinds

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:06

Not a trend, but tell me of another driver on the grid whose variety in performances, both bad and good, can be almost solely attributed to getting performance out of the tyres in recent years.


Come on, you know it's never as simple as being one thing.

You've picked races that were run with two different teams, two different tyre manufacturers and a wide variety of weather conditions.

There isn't anything consistent in your race choices to make any judgement on his sensitivity to tyres.

Edited by johnmhinds, 13 May 2012 - 15:07.


#9 Peter Perfect

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:19

Button has always been prone to tyre temperatures dropping because his driving style doesn't punish the tyres as much as other drivers, which when he can get the temperature in the tyres is excellent. I was interested (and slightly alarmed) to see that Button switched brake materials to the one Hamilton runs in FP3 in an attempt to get more heat into the tyres. He obviously prefers a more progressive and predictable response when he brakes whereas Hamilton can cope with a more agressive material which allows later braking but demands a different driving style. We'll just have to see if Button switches materials permanently.

#10 ZooL

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:25

He can't adapt and needs nothing less than a perfect car.

I don't think its a skill he can learn either considering he's already 32.

#11 miniq

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:26

I don't think Jenson is that great of an overall driver.. Pre 2009 I would have said he might as well retire

His skills are in decision making

And when he has the car exacly where he wants it he is near unstoppable.


Edited by miniq, 13 May 2012 - 16:27.


#12 P123

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:31

Only as good as your last race pretty much sums up most of the comments in this topic.


#13 TheBunk

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:32

Withmarsh should go. Im fed up him sabotaging Buttons car. :smoking:

#14 Wander

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:44

Only as good as your last race pretty much sums up most of the comments in this topic.

+1.

#15 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:50

Button was not a mega hero in 2011, to now be a numpty and a driver incapable of adapting. I suggest the reality is somewhere in between. Every driver has an off day. Tyres or not, there was several races last year Hamilton could not live with Button. Too many people ripped Hamilton apart when things were not 100%. Lets not put Button through the mill. I'll guarantee he'll be back, because he and the team have too much experience and today's issues will be solved.

#16 TheBunk

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:54

He was peerless at Melbourne, and very good at China. Malaysia and today were absolute disgraceful displays, especially with the car he has, and especially after his talk about not needing to test, and now cry he doesnt understand the tyres is just laughable and well below par. Saying that as a big Button fan btw. Someone oughta kick his rear end and tell him to get a grip on himself.

#17 Crafty

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:56

Button was not a mega hero in 2011, to now be a numpty and a driver incapable of adapting. I suggest the reality is somewhere in between. Every driver has an off day. Tyres or not, there was several races last year Hamilton could not live with Button. Too many people ripped Hamilton apart when things were not 100%. Lets not put Button through the mill. I'll guarantee he'll be back, because he and the team have too much experience and today's issues will be solved.


To be fair he's always struggled to adapt, remember 2009 ?

#18 P123

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:02

To be fair he's always struggled to adapt, remember 2009 ?


Yeah, he won the championship. What were the rest doing then?

#19 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:10

Please all read this superb article by Mark Hughes:

http://f12011-setups...s-revealed.html

A couple of very relevant bits:

“I hate rear instability on corner entry,” said Button during his Brawn title-winning season of 2009. “It’s not something I can deal with well. If I look at the telemetry and compare what Rubens [Barrichello, his team-mate that season] does in those situations, I can’t do that. If he has rear instability he just throws on a lot of steering lock very suddenly, making the car understeer, and balancing it just right so that by the time the understeer’s reducing you’re into the corner and the transient instability is gone, or has been sort of damped out. I’ve seen it time and time again on the telemetry. When I try to do that, I just lose all feeling for the car; I cannot judge how much to do it by, it just feels so alien.”


There would seem to be a strong correlation between the sensitivity of a driver’s feel and how much they dislike rear instability – which sort of figures. If the driver has spent his whole career avoiding the onset of sudden breakaway at the rear, he is going to be more attuned to messages informing him of that than someone who doesn’t really mind if the rear does break away.


There was a small moment during qualifying in Bahrain in 2010 that was very illuminating to McLaren’s Paddy Lowe. In the final runs the wind had suddenly changed direction and it meant that as the cars arrived at Turns 5-6 – into the extended loop – they traversed a crosswind. Button turned into the corner, instantly sensed there was momentarily less grip than before and was spooked, thinking something was wrong with the car. He proceeded very carefully through the next few turns and the lap was gone. Hamilton arrived at the turn, felt nothing different to before and blasted through there, full-attack.

“We saw from the loadings on the cars and the various data that both cars had been affected in exactly the same way,” said Lowe. “Yet Lewis didn’t feel it and Jenson did. As it happened, that worked in Lewis’s favour.” But on another occasion – a genuine reduction in surface grip through the corner from spilt oil, say – it might have worked in Button’s.

“Ninety per cent of the feedback you get in a racing car is irrelevant,” says Martin Brundle. “It’s part of the driver’s skill to filter out the irrelevant stuff and just act upon that vital 10 per cent.” A driver quite relaxed about sudden rear instability will probably be using a coarser filter for such messages than one who cannot tolerate such a trait. That greater sensitivity can bring benefits in other situations.

Hamilton and Button – being at opposite ends of the style spectrum, yet driving the same car – make for particularly intriguing comparisons. Button’s sensitivity to the car’s microbehaviour has probably played its part in how the team looks to him more than Hamilton for set-up/development direction through a race weekend. Whenever there is a divergence of opinion on Friday over which direction to follow, the team invariably follows Button’s preference probably secure in the knowledge that Hamilton will be able to drive well regardless of the car’s traits, whereas Button loses more of his performance if the car is not exactly as he needs it. We see also just how such sensitivity allows Button to shine in wet – or ever better, variably wet – conditions.



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#20 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:12

Yeah, he won the championship. What were the rest doing then?


That's a facile way of looking at it, Button did struggle in the second half with the balance of the car and getting the tyres to work for him. He was utterly brilliant in the first 7 races, but ultimately made hard work of the championship after that.

#21 Disgrace

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:46

Come on, you know it's never as simple as being one thing.


Of course not, but I think a majority of issues stem from one thing, regardless of the variables I mentioned. I am suggesting that for Button, a wider range of good and bad performances occur for the same reason than other drivers.

You've picked races that were run with two different teams, two different tyre manufacturers and a wide variety of weather conditions.


I see the fact that he's had the same tyre problems with different teams/tyre manufacturers/weather means the problems are not with those variables.

#22 P123

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:06

That's a facile way of looking at it, Button did struggle in the second half with the balance of the car and getting the tyres to work for him. He was utterly brilliant in the first 7 races, but ultimately made hard work of the championship after that.


He struggled in quali, not so much during the races. He still won, so despite having troubles he wasn't all that bad. Certainly nothing like, say, Korea 2010 or Spain today.

#23 PNSD

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:54

In Abu Dhabi 2011 he coped well with a poorly balanced car which was unpredictable. That is NOT his issue. In that case he knew and could quantify what effect the tyres were having, he knew what performance he could extract and therefore drove a brilliant race!

This year the problem seems to be the knife edge characteristics of the tyres and a Mclaren that seems to have a narrow operating window too.

Look at Lotus, they've been quick pretty much everywhere. Maybe not quickest but they have been there or there abouts! The hotter it gets the more they enjoy it, but even in cool conditions the car still works well. The same can not be said for Mclaren.

It's true Button's sensitivity is not helping the issue but don't think this is all Button. That Mclaren is not the calm, flowing beast it was in Australia.. not anymore! As brundle said, Pastor's q3 lap looked sometimes better than the pole lap in the quick corners!



#24 SteSteSte

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:56

Button was not a mega hero in 2011, to now be a numpty and a driver incapable of adapting. I suggest the reality is somewhere in between. Every driver has an off day. Tyres or not, there was several races last year Hamilton could not live with Button. Too many people ripped Hamilton apart when things were not 100%. Lets not put Button through the mill. I'll guarantee he'll be back, because he and the team have too much experience and today's issues will be solved.


Not normally one to fully agree with your posts, for one reason or another, but, I'm with you 100% on this one! :up:

#25 Crafty

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:59

...This year the problem seems to be the knife edge characteristics of the tyres and a Mclaren that seems to have a narrow operating window too...


Nothing wrong with the car, fastest yesterday and "tyre wrecker" Lewis did a 2 stop race running in traffic for long periods of time.

Button just can't drive a car that doesn't feel right to him, he's admitted as much several times. Even with the advantage of the 2009 Brawn he seriously struggled at times


#26 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:04

He struggled in quali, not so much during the races. He still won, so despite having troubles he wasn't all that bad. Certainly nothing like, say, Korea 2010 or Spain today.


I agree his issues in qualifying are usually more or less stamped out under race conditions, Shovlin said he never worried too much about what Button's race pace would be like after a difficult Saturday, but I was including qualifying in the picture as it will seriously hamper his championship charge with the field as bunched as they are now, even when his normally brilliant race pace returns. When you say 'he still won', i'd say 'he still held on'. Barrichello won 2 races and Button won none from Silverstone onwards in 2009. Despite ultimately achieving championship success, 2009 is as good an example as any to illustrate his sensitivity to tyres and how it just as often hurts him as it doesn't.

#27 TeamMacca

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:12

Is this why Lewis is better than Jenson in the wet???

Just because Jenson can't get the heat into his tyres and Lewis's style allows him to go faster(more heat, grip)

Examples - Hungary 2011(pulled away with ease), Silverstone 2011(Overtook JB, pulled away), Korea 2010(Pulled away, Jenson spinning), Australia 2010(Overtook JB on third lap i think it was), Malaysia 2012(Starting building lead on inters and wets, JB struggled), Canada 2010 (All over JB and we know what happened next)

Just a thought of why Lewis is able to beat Jenson most times in the wet/have better pace?

#28 Lights

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:14

I agree his issues in qualifying are usually more or less stamped out under race conditions, Shovlin said he never worried too much about what Button's race pace would be like after a difficult Saturday, but I was including qualifying in the picture as it will seriously hamper his championship charge with the field as bunched as they are now, even when his normally brilliant race pace returns. When you say 'he still won', i'd say 'he still held on'. Barrichello won 2 races and Button won none from Silverstone onwards in 2009. Despite ultimately achieving championship success, 2009 is as good an example as any to illustrate his sensitivity to tyres and how it just as often hurts him as it doesn't.

While true, over the second half of the season Barrichello scored only 6 more points (33-27) than Button. Also even the Red Bull boys, despite a stronger car in this period IMO, did not really put such a dent in his lead if you look at the cold numbers. Hardly the difference which some sentences often make it out to be when this topic turns up. Yes, he 'held on', but not as hopeless as it might look while looking back. We must not forget that the second part of 2009 was sometimes as crazy as the current season, and a poor qualification could have terrible consequences due to the absence of KERS/DRS, not truly depicting the strength differences at the finish line.

Totally agree on the rest of your post however, especially the last sentence.

#29 Lights

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:27

Is this why Lewis is better than Jenson in the wet???

Just because Jenson can't get the heat into his tyres and Lewis's style allows him to go faster(more heat, grip)

Examples - Hungary 2011(pulled away with ease), Silverstone 2011(Overtook JB, pulled away), Korea 2010(Pulled away, Jenson spinning), Australia 2010(Overtook JB on third lap i think it was), Malaysia 2012(Starting building lead on inters and wets, JB struggled), Canada 2010 (All over JB and we know what happened next)

Just a thought of why Lewis is able to beat Jenson most times in the wet/have better pace?

Hungary 2011(pulled away with ease) - Don't agree, Jenson was quite good in the wet in this race, they fought in the rain and overtook each other. Hamilton used his tyres more at the beginning of stints, Jenson would reel him in at the end of them.
Silverstone 2011(Overtook JB, pulled away) - Don't agree, Hamilton was underweight as he was under-fueled? Jenson stayed near him (under ~8 seconds), closed the gap when Hamilton had to save fuel and probably would have beaten him had he kept all 4 wheels.
Korea 2010(Pulled away, Jenson spinning) - Yes, classic example of Jenson having no grip whatsoever.
Australia 2010(Overtook JB on third lap i think it was) - Don't agree. Lewis overtook, but then did nothing with it. Neither could really keep up with the group in front, but Button did keep up with Hamilton until Button pitted.
Malaysia 2012(Starting building lead on inters and wets, JB struggled) - Don't agree. On the wets Jenson couldn't really stay closer than he was for it to be useful. He did not drop back that much. On inters Lewis wasn't in front because of his pit stop, and Jenson then had to pit soon again.
Canada 2010 (All over JB and we know what happened next) 2011? I partially agree, Lewis did seemed quicker but also seemed way more risks seeing as he already went very wide twice and spun Webber around. Later on in the race Button was very strong in wet and in damp conditions.

Overall, I think Lewis is a bit faster in full wet conditions. Also on inters, Jenson seems to kill them sooner in certain scenarios (Aus 2010, but not in Hungary 2011 for eg.). These examples don't tell the whole story however. In China 2010 Button held his own against Hamilton in a very long battle for the lead. And I remember a lot of moments of Jenson pre-McLaren in which he was epic in wet conditions, so I don't want to surrender this easily. :D

#30 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:38

In China 2010 Button held his own against Hamilton in a very long battle for the lead.


That he did, but people have painted this as a totally even fight, even though Button's tyres were a lap fresher and Hamilton had to battle through traffic as I recall before getting into second position, and once both their tyres did completely fall away Hamilton did start to reel him in.

#31 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:46

Is this why Lewis is better than Jenson in the wet???

Just because Jenson can't get the heat into his tyres and Lewis's style allows him to go faster(more heat, grip)


Examples - Hungary 2011(pulled away with ease), Silverstone 2011(Overtook JB, pulled away), Korea 2010(Pulled away, Jenson spinning), Australia 2010(Overtook JB on third lap i think it was), Malaysia 2012(Starting building lead on inters and wets, JB struggled), Canada 2010 (All over JB and we know what happened next)

Just a thought of why Lewis is able to beat Jenson most times in the wet/have better pace?


Pretty much, but it's also his ease with oversteer - which is symbiotic with him getting more heat into his tyres. JB genuinely seems better on a drying track with slicks though. I never used to buy into that 'smoothy smoothy, feely feely' guff when it came to this, but there is plenty of evidence to back it up. I honestly think Button's nothing special on wet/inter tyres where his sensitivity hurts him, whereas it comes into its own when he's got the slick tyres on and he's a bit of a wizard.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 13 May 2012 - 19:47.


#32 Kvothe

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:46

Hungary 2011(pulled away with ease) - Don't agree, Jenson was quite good in the wet in this race, they fought in the rain and overtook each other. Hamilton used his tyres more at the beginning of stints, Jenson would reel him in at the end of them.
Silverstone 2011(Overtook JB, pulled away) - Don't agree, Hamilton was underweight as he was under-fueled? Jenson stayed near him (under ~8 seconds), closed the gap when Hamilton had to save fuel and probably would have beaten him had he kept all 4 wheels.
Korea 2010(Pulled away, Jenson spinning) - Yes, classic example of Jenson having no grip whatsoever.
Australia 2010(Overtook JB on third lap i think it was) - Don't agree. Lewis overtook, but then did nothing with it. Neither could really keep up with the group in front, but Button did keep up with Hamilton until Button pitted.
Malaysia 2012(Starting building lead on inters and wets, JB struggled) - Don't agree. On the wets Jenson couldn't really stay closer than he was for it to be useful. He did not drop back that much. On inters Lewis wasn't in front because of his pit stop, and Jenson then had to pit soon again.
Canada 2010 (All over JB and we know what happened next) 2011? I partially agree, Lewis did seemed quicker but also seemed way more risks seeing as he already went very wide twice and spun Webber around. Later on in the race Button was very strong in wet and in damp conditions.

Overall, I think Lewis is a bit faster in full wet conditions. Also on inters, Jenson seems to kill them sooner in certain scenarios (Aus 2010, but not in Hungary 2011 for eg.). These examples don't tell the whole story however. In China 2010 Button held his own against Hamilton in a very long battle for the lead. And I remember a lot of moments of Jenson pre-McLaren in which he was epic in wet conditions, so I don't want to surrender this easily. :D


Allow me to wade it :)

Hungary 2011: Lewis pulled an 8 second gap on Jenson, only when the track dried up and both switched to the slicks did Jenson begin to reel him.
Silverstone 2011: Gary Paffet said the difference between the cars was 1 kg and Jenson only remained so close while the cars were on inters because Lewis got stuck behind Massa and went off twice at bridge trying to overtake him. It speaks volumes that he did this lost 3-4 seconds and was still able to keep ahead of Jenson.
Korea 2010: Neither car had much grip, both were overtaken by a Mercedes after the safety car, and Lewis locked his brakes and went wide trying to defend against Alonso. This spoke particularly about problems with the brakes arrising because of the safety car (Similar to Monza 08 with Heikki)
Australia 2010: Lewis overtookJenson, but was unable to stay behind the gusy in front because burnt out his intermediates doing so, it must be remembered that Jenson pitted for Slicks at exactly the right time and so everyone's inters were suffering.
Malaysia 2012: Everyone remarked on Lewis speed while on Intermediates after most had switched to wets, its also clear that despite JB having been on the wet tyres for two extra laps with them warmed up and with experience, within four corners after pitting Lewis was able to drop him.
China 2010: While I agree Jenson held his own, at the end of the race Lewis was reeling him in, and if there had been two more laps probably would have snatched the lead.

i think Lewis is better when both are on wets/intermediates on a wet track, however something about Jenson's driving style allows him to generate huge amounts of grip when he transfers to slicks on a drying track, and his style allows him to keep the tyres better on what is arguably a greener and more abrasive track after the rubber has been washed off.

#33 Lights

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:47

That he did, but people have painted this as a totally even fight, even though Button's tyres were a lap fresher and Hamilton had to battle through traffic as I recall before getting into second position, and once both their tyres did completely fall away Hamilton did start to reel him in.

Yes, he did have to fight through traffic in the middle stint, he lost some time there, but the team then let him leapfrog Rosberg and the final stint was in clear air for both. Jenson first extended the gap and then Lewis closed in again. I'm not sure anymore though whether the gap changed that much over the course of all those laps. For a 2010 performance however, and only Jenson's fourth outing for McLaren, I was quite impressed, and it wasn't that much different as their performance in the dry. So based on that, I don't think Button's sensitivity to the tyres necessarily has an extra effect in wet conditions.

#34 schubacca

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:00

JB is one of the top drivers in the grid. But the culprit is Pirelli, not him.

MS is getting roasted in some quarters because his candid views on Pirelli. JB is being diplomat in saying that the tyres are baffling.....

People need to ask themselves..... Is the qualifying performance between LH and JB 10 positions.

Is the performance between FA and FM 16 ( or whatever....)?

F1 is a lottery. We are being denied the opportunity of the best drivers in the world hunting down their opponents and driving on the limit lap after lap.

Watching NR tip toeing around was painful....

#35 Kvothe

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:02

JB is one of the top drivers in the grid. But the culprit is Pirelli, not him.

MS is getting roasted in some quarters because his candid views on Pirelli. JB is being diplomat in saying that the tyres are baffling.....

People need to ask themselves..... Is the qualifying performance between LH and JB 10 positions.

Is the performance between FA and FM 16 ( or whatever....)?

F1 is a lottery. We are being denied the opportunity of the best drivers in the world hunting down their opponents and driving on the limit lap after lap.

Watching NR tip toeing around was painful....


What I'm surprised about is no one is commenting on what Mark Webber has said! He basically slammed the tyres as much as Schumacher and no one's mentioned it.

Edited by Kvothe, 13 May 2012 - 20:03.


#36 Hulkster

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:08

I don't think he has a particular sensitivity to the tyres, it's just the general set up of the car that he requires to be almost perfect.

He had the same issue before Pirelli; if he can get the set up right he is as good as anyone, but when it isn't right he drops back much further than the other drivers tend to.

#37 Lights

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:14

Allow me to wade it :)

Hungary 2011: Lewis pulled an 8 second gap on Jenson, only when the track dried up and both switched to the slicks did Jenson begin to reel him.
Silverstone 2011: Gary Paffet said the difference between the cars was 1 kg and Jenson only remained so close while the cars were on inters because Lewis got stuck behind Massa and went off twice at bridge trying to overtake him. It speaks volumes that he did this lost 3-4 seconds and was still able to keep ahead of Jenson.
Korea 2010: Neither car had much grip, both were overtaken by a Mercedes after the safety car, and Lewis locked his brakes and went wide trying to defend against Alonso. This spoke particularly about problems with the brakes arrising because of the safety car (Similar to Monza 08 with Heikki)
Australia 2010: Lewis overtookJenson, but was unable to stay behind the gusy in front because burnt out his intermediates doing so, it must be remembered that Jenson pitted for Slicks at exactly the right time and so everyone's inters were suffering.
Malaysia 2012: Everyone remarked on Lewis speed while on Intermediates after most had switched to wets, its also clear that despite JB having been on the wet tyres for two extra laps with them warmed up and with experience, within four corners after pitting Lewis was able to drop him.
China 2010: While I agree Jenson held his own, at the end of the race Lewis was reeling him in, and if there had been two more laps probably would have snatched the lead.

i think Lewis is better when both are on wets/intermediates on a wet track, however something about Jenson's driving style allows him to generate huge amounts of grip when he transfers to slicks on a drying track, and his style allows him to keep the tyres better on what is arguably a greener and more abrasive track after the rubber has been washed off.

There might be a pattern in there concerning losing time in the wet and gaining it back again in the damp conditions. And generally that on worn tyres, practically for Jenson the lower grip translates into poorer balance for Jenson more than other drivers, similar to in dry conditions. This then results in Jenson taking more care of his tyres to avoid this and create possibilities at the end of those stints as opposed to being caught out on low grip.

None of this explains Nurburgring 2007 however. Or Silverstone 2008, Sepang 2009. These races always gave me the idea that Jenson was good in 'changing' conditions, including tiptoeing on slicks in a sudden downpour. That he turned out to be unique on slicks on a damp track added to this. In consistent wet conditions however this fades and Hamilton has proven to be better.

#38 robefc

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:19

Yes, he did have to fight through traffic in the middle stint, he lost some time there, but the team then let him leapfrog Rosberg and the final stint was in clear air for both. Jenson first extended the gap and then Lewis closed in again. I'm not sure anymore though whether the gap changed that much over the course of all those laps. For a 2010 performance however, and only Jenson's fourth outing for McLaren, I was quite impressed, and it wasn't that much different as their performance in the dry. So based on that, I don't think Button's sensitivity to the tyres necessarily has an extra effect in wet conditions.


China was one of my favourite Lewis races but it wasn't perfect because he didn't reel in and pass jenson at the end! Much to my surpise actually, I thought it was a foregone conclusion but jenson actually started increasing the gap until he made a mistake and went off.

I think they were both on similar tyres in the final stint from memory but Lewis just wasn't quick on his last set of tyres for some reason, or at least not as quick as jenson.

#39 Lights

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:23

I don't think he has a particular sensitivity to the tyres, it's just the general set up of the car that he requires to be almost perfect.

He had the same issue before Pirelli; if he can get the set up right he is as good as anyone, but when it isn't right he drops back much further than the other drivers tend to.

Still, it's clear that in certain weekends with cold weather (Silverstone 2009, Korea 2010, Nurburgring 2011), he is more likely to struggle due to temperatures he just can't handle. He then searches the whole weekend for a good setup and ultimately ends up with the same complaints at the end of the race based on that he couldn't make his tyres work. Perhaps it's bad timing to mention this now after a sunny Barcelona but I still believe this argument stands. It could also be that due to the 'double gap' Pirelli's this weekend, the problem worsened as even though initial driving on the soft was fine, he spent all practices to find a way to heat up the hard tyres, and ultimately ended up with a setup that didn't really work well with either tyre.

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#40 F1ultimate

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:25

Button has always been tyre and setup sensitive and we saw that all the way back in 2010. Lewis will drive the car regardless of conditions and we rarely see him struggling to drive a car, just look back at the 2009 season. When Button isn't happy he falls way back in the order and being beaten by his teammate who lost pole and started 24th was some what embarrassing.

#41 robefc

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:26

Still, it's clear that in certain weekends with cold weather (Silverstone 2009, Korea 2010, Nurburgring 2011), he is more likely to struggle due to temperatures he just can't handle. He then searches the whole weekend for a good setup and ultimately ends up with the same complaints at the end of the race based on that he couldn't make his tyres work. Perhaps it's bad timing to mention this now after a sunny Barcelona but I still believe this argument stands. It could also be that due to the 'double gap' Pirelli's this weekend, the problem worsened as even though initial driving on the soft was fine, he spent all practices to find a way to heat up the hard tyres, and ultimately ended up with a setup that didn't really work well with either tyre.


Another thing you often here him mention, which I'm not sure you hear very much from other drivers, is that the balance/feeling of the car has completely changed from one day to the next or from FP3 to quali, even when they've made no or only small changes. It obviously completely bemuses him as to why.

#42 Markn93

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:26

What I'm surprised about is no one is commenting on what Mark Webber has said! He basically slammed the tyres as much as Schumacher and no one's mentioned it.


What did he say?

#43 Kvothe

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:30

What did he say?



I posted it in the Rosberg: F1 is a completely different sport these days thread, I realised it doesn't sound that bad when written down but it was mostly his tone when he was saying it.

#44 dave12

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:35

No overnight fix says Jens

Going by what Jenson is saying this would explain why in clear air he is matching Lewis for race pace but in traffic he is munching through tires like nobody.I know he had set up issues this race but what if this not a one race thing i mean Aus got out in front and run away. Mala had a shocker ( slow race pace ). China matched Lewis for race pace ( when in clear air ) Bah both Macca's had tire issues. I hope Jen's can sort this fast because i fear by the time Macca got on top of this it will be to late for his Title fight.


#45 TheBunk

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:38

He says hes going home tonight. He should put his ass in a plane to Woking and pump some hours in that simulator.

#46 sosidge

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:55

Jenson has always been extremely sensitive to car setup. This is possibly his greatest weakness. So why the surprise that he repeatedly fails to find the right balance in his car?


#47 muramasa

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:55


I always think "Jense's performance depends heavily on tire" and "smooth" thing is way overrated. To some extent it might be true, but it's more an impression imo.

He's shown exciting wheel-to-wheel battle way more than average, and one of Bridgestone guys said back then "??? not really. in F1 going fast means "bully" tyre. Jense is one of cruelest in terms of that." when asked if Jense is easy on his tyre.

He can both manage his tyres well and fight at highest level. He's like sensor in terms of sensing car behavior and kinda exeggerate it or so detail about it when describing his car's handling. It's just how he says it, also he somehow sounds as if the world is ending when he report issues on radio. Those things give impression that he's sensitive and has smaller window of performance. In fact he's not.



#48 pingu666

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:02

maybe he likes to take more corner speed rather than squaring off the corner ?


#49 dave12

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:07

maybe he likes to take more corner speed rather than squaring off the corner ?

Makes sense Jenson quite often has a higher apex speed than a lot of other drivers.

#50 Lights

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:32

China was one of my favourite Lewis races but it wasn't perfect because he didn't reel in and pass jenson at the end! Much to my surpise actually, I thought it was a foregone conclusion but jenson actually started increasing the gap until he made a mistake and went off.

I think they were both on similar tyres in the final stint from memory but Lewis just wasn't quick on his last set of tyres for some reason, or at least not as quick as jenson.

I thought it was a foregone conclusion as well and just a matter of time. Positively surprised. I remember from that race and in Melbourne 2010 I was hoping more than ever that he would keep it together for the victories, purely because I knew it would mean a lot psychologically for the remainder of the season, which I knew would become very tough. Didn't exactly work out like that, but still the wins were nice, regardless of the lucky stamp.