4013 replies to this topic

[Gilles4Ever]

Continuation of the discussion of Michael Schumacher. Previous thread: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=126500

[ivand911]

I hope with new thread will come new luck.

Edited by ivand911, 01 June 2012 - 12:38.

[Massa_f1]

ivand911, on Jun 1 2012, 13:33, said:

I hope with new thread will come new luck.

[Pits]

His luck has to change, probability says so!

[nateshan]

ivand911, on Jun 1 2012, 08:33, said:

I hope with new thread will come new luck.

[BetaVersion]

Well, I see that the discussion regarding Grosjean was still on in the the "Part I" thread.

It's not only the majority of F1 fans that blames Grosjean for the accident. Sauber people are not happy either, this just shows that MSC fans are not looking for a scapegoat on GrowJohn

http://www.auto123.c...ref=facebookrec

[jj2728]

BetaVersion, on Jun 1 2012, 11:16, said:

Well, I see that the discussion regarding Grosjean was still on in the the "Part I" thread.

It's not only the majority of F1 fans that blames Grosjean for the accident. Sauber people are not happy either, this just shows that MSC fans are not looking for a scapegoat on GrowJohn

http://www.auto123.c...ref=facebookrec

Seriously, have you watched Grosjean's in car video? Show me how Grosjean is the one at fault. And when you say majority of F1 fans, don't you really mean majority of the Schumacher fanclub?

[Afterburner]

So, I'll take a cue from the thread discussing Canada--what're the odds of winner number 7 this year coming at the 7th race, driving car number 7, being a certain 7-time World Champion who has already won there 7 times?

[ivand911]

Afterburner, on Jun 1 2012, 19:13, said:

So, I'll take a cue from the thread discussing Canada--what're the odds of winner number 7 this year coming at the 7th race, driving car number 7, being a certain 7-time World Champion who has already won there 7 times?

50%

[TheBunk]

[AvranaKern]

I wonder when -and if- Schumacher wins a race whether we'll see a podium jump from him.

[TheBunk]

Excuse me for the Schumacher porn, but these pics bring back great memories. Its fantastic this guy is back in F1 and driving well.

Edited by TheBunk, 01 June 2012 - 16:38.

[chrisaix]

Absolutely! Ive been missing his jump since 2006. Lets hope we'll see it soon, and it will be great if it happens in canada.

[BetaVersion]

jj2728, on Jun 1 2012, 13:11, said:

Seriously, have you watched Grosjean's in car video? Show me how Grosjean is the one at fault. And when you say majority of F1 fans, don't you really mean majority of the Schumacher fanclub?

After Alonso hit him, he(RG) steered too much into the left. From the onboard his move doesn't look as idiotic as the outside cameras suggests, but still it was avoidable imo.

[Muz Bee]

Quote

Sometimes luck is with you, sometimes against you. Michael has had plenty of good luck in the past, it all comes around over time. Once a Ferrari driver qualified on the front row almost every race of the season and never won a race, mainly a string of DNFs. Now that's bad luck.

I would point out that the act of crashing into Senna in Spain effectively wrecked TWO of his six races anyway.

To KavB the answer to who was that driver;

Chris Amon - 3 seasons as lead driver at Ferrari, debut 1968 Monaco 3rd all downhill after that.
1968 started 8 out of 11 on front row incl 3 poles in a row, 7 DNFs. 1969 was so poor Ferrari withdrew mid point in season.

At least Michael's early seasons at Ferrari the car was reliable. And his bad luck this year, even by the modern standards isn't extreme. His best chance was spoiled by his own error in the previous race, a penalty which although just, does stain a great achievement at that majestic of circuits. Over his career Michael has had plenty of fortune on his side, and of course you do make a lot of your good fortune. I'm not one-eyed enough to deny Michael's apparent improvement from previous 2 seasons so far this year.

[Muz Bee]

Great photos Bunky!

[ivand911]

Muz Bee, on Jun 2 2012, 04:35, said:

To KavB the answer to who was that driver;

Chris Amon - 3 seasons as lead driver at Ferrari, debut 1968 Monaco 3rd all downhill after that.
1968 started 8 out of 11 on front row incl 3 poles in a row, 7 DNFs. 1969 was so poor Ferrari withdrew mid point in season.

At least Michael's early seasons at Ferrari the car was reliable. And his bad luck this year, even by the modern standards isn't extreme. His best chance was spoiled by his own error in the previous race, a penalty which although just, does stain a great achievement at that majestic of circuits. Over his career Michael has had plenty of fortune on his side, and of course you do make a lot of your good fortune. I'm not one-eyed enough to deny Michael's apparent improvement from previous 2 seasons so far this year.

I think four technical problems in 6 races is very very extreme for modern F1. In China it wasn't him. In Monaco crash and fuel problem was pretty severe over penalty. Even with penalty he was looking for some good points.

Edited by ivand911, 02 June 2012 - 10:39.

[Clatter]

BetaVersion, on Jun 1 2012, 21:16, said:

After Alonso hit him, he(RG) steered too much into the left. From the onboard his move doesn't look as idiotic as the outside cameras suggests, but still it was avoidable imo.

And your experience of being hit by another car in those circumstances is?

[Clatter]

Muz Bee, on Jun 2 2012, 02:35, said:

To KavB the answer to who was that driver;

Chris Amon - 3 seasons as lead driver at Ferrari, debut 1968 Monaco 3rd all downhill after that.
1968 started 8 out of 11 on front row incl 3 poles in a row, 7 DNFs. 1969 was so poor Ferrari withdrew mid point in season.

At least Michael's early seasons at Ferrari the car was reliable. And his bad luck this year, even by the modern standards isn't extreme. His best chance was spoiled by his own error in the previous race, a penalty which although just, does stain a great achievement at that majestic of circuits. Over his career Michael has had plenty of fortune on his side, and of course you do make a lot of your good fortune. I'm not one-eyed enough to deny Michael's apparent improvement from previous 2 seasons so far this year.

It was? That's not how I remember it. He even had his car falling apart when he was leaving the pits for the grid at one race.

[genespleen]

Clatter, on Jun 2 2012, 12:50, said:

It was? That's not how I remember it. He even had his car falling apart when he was leaving the pits for the grid at one race.

No, it isn't true. Schu's first five years at Ferrari featured plenty of mechanical failures. Even the first driver's championship year of 2000 included several.

[Bleu]

genespleen, on Jun 2 2012, 16:02, said:

No, it isn't true. Schu's first five years at Ferrari featured plenty of mechanical failures. Even the first driver's championship year of 2000 included several.

The first season with Ferrari is the only one IMO where you can talk about bad reliability.

1996
AUS - brakes
CAN - driveshaft
FRA - engine
GBR - gearbox
HUN - throttle
Additionally he suffered broken rear wing in Australia due to flying debris. One driver-related DNF in Monaco

1997
GBR - wheel bearing
Four DNFs in total, three others due to collisions: Buenos Aires, Nürburgring and Jerez

1998
AUS - engine
Three DNFs in total, collision with Coulthard in Spa and puncture at Suzuka.

1999
GBR - leg-braking accident due to brake failure.
Additionally crashed in Canada

2000
MON - exhaust/suspension
FRA - engine
Additionally two first-corner collisions. Austria which was completely Zonta's fault, Germany which is debatable with Fisico.

2001
RSM - suspension
GER - fuel pressure

After that he had 3½ seasons without car-related retirements. I don't remember too much on mechanical problems which affected the race but didn't end it. One that came to my mind was in Australia 1999 where he had to start from the back of the grid. He also suffered puncture and some other dramas in the race.

[Paa]

[ivand911]

Clatter, on Jun 2 2012, 15:48, said:

And your experience of being hit by another car in those circumstances is?

It is his opinion, he doesn't need related car experience. His opinion is as good as yours. As we can see from the picture there is enough space left to the Alonso car. So he clearly steered too much. Also Alonso pushed him.
http://motorsport.ne...-bestof/132.jpg

[BetaVersion]

Webber agrees with Schumacher's view

The only moment that drivers push 100% and go for the limit is on qualifying, and the guys with good cars mostly on Q3.


Mark classifies today's races as more of an endurance race and that, from the driving point of view, he prefered the old refueling time with Bridgestone tires where race was almost like qualifying. Mark classified it as "sprint race".

It's a shame that they couldn't make the sprint races more entertaining for the public so that we wouldn't need this tire nursing kind of race that we have today that provides more entertaininment, even if artificial.

A lot of people bashed MSC and said he was looking for excuses for his "bad results", even though, any reasonable person knows that MSC low points is solely due to unreliability. It's nice that Webber confirms what MSC said.

Edited by BetaVersion, 02 June 2012 - 14:53.

[MS7XWDC]

BetaVersion, on Jun 2 2012, 14:51, said:

Webber agrees with Schumacher's view

The only moment that drivers push 100% and go for the limit is on qualifying, and the guys with good cars mostly on Q3.


Mark classifies today's races as more of an endurance race and that, from the driving point of view, he prefered the old refueling time with Bridgestone tires where race was almost like qualifying. Mark classified it as "sprint race".

It's a shame that they couldn't make the sprint races more entertaining for the public so that we wouldn't need this tire nursing kind of race that we have today that provides more entertaininment, even if artificial.

A lot of people bashed MSC and said he was looking for excuses for his "bad results", even though, any reasonable person knows that MSC low points is solely due to unreliability. It's nice that Webber confirms what MSC said.

agreed. today we see 'Pacing' and not 'Racing' ... it's a shame, because it looks like we would have great races if they could push harder - more competitive teams nowadays

[jj2728]

Muz Bee, on Jun 1 2012, 21:35, said:

To KavB the answer to who was that driver;
Chris Amon - 3 seasons as lead driver at Ferrari, debut 1968 Monaco 3rd all downhill after that.
1968 started 8 out of 11 on front row incl 3 poles in a row, 7 DNFs. 1969 was so poor Ferrari withdrew mid point in season.

Chris Amon's Ferrari debut was at the 1967 Daytona 24 hours which he co-drove and won with the late Lorenzo Bandini. The duo also won the Monza 1000Kms. His Formula One debut with Ferrari was at the 1967 Race of Cmapions at Brands Hatch. His Grand Prix debut was at the 1967 Monaco Grand Prix, the same race that his teammate Bandin crashed out on the 82nd lap. The one race in '67 that he had a real shot of winning was the USGP. He was running in 2nd place and catching the leader Clark when his engine expired on the 96th lap. In 1968, had his Ferrari held together, he would have won the WDC. But, such was the Amon luck. Even Mario Andretti said, "If Chris were to buy a funeral home, people would stop dying." Probably the greatest driver to never win a proper Grand Prix.

[TheBunk]

BetaVersion, on Jun 2 2012, 14:51, said:

Webber agrees with Schumacher's view

The only moment that drivers push 100% and go for the limit is on qualifying, and the guys with good cars mostly on Q3.


Mark classifies today's races as more of an endurance race and that, from the driving point of view, he prefered the old refueling time with Bridgestone tires where race was almost like qualifying. Mark classified it as "sprint race".

It's a shame that they couldn't make the sprint races more entertaining for the public so that we wouldn't need this tire nursing kind of race that we have today that provides more entertaininment, even if artificial.

A lot of people bashed MSC and said he was looking for excuses for his "bad results", even though, any reasonable person knows that MSC low points is solely due to unreliability. It's nice that Webber confirms what MSC said.

I like Mark a lot, but is something wrong with his memory? In the sprint racing days there was no DRS, no overtaking, wich led to cruel and unjust victories like Kimis stealing of Fisi's Spa 2009 win.

Nobody was sprinting. All overtaking was done in the pits. Just look at the stats pre Pirellis racing vs now.

And, again, most of the fans seem to enjoy it a lot.

Its not perfect, but il have todays racing over and in the noughties.

[Muz Bee]

Clatter, on Jun 3 2012, 00:50, said:

It was? That's not how I remember it. He even had his car falling apart when he was leaving the pits for the grid at one race.

Memories are unreliable too! They are coloured by what follows. As Bleu's post shows the Ferrari wasn't terribly unreliable, unless you measure it against 2010s standard. If the 2012 season continued at the same rate for MS as the first 6 GPs I would agree that's very unreliable by modern standards. But 6 races doesn't set a firm basis for conclusion. He could go through the next 13 races without mechanical defect making it 4/19, 1 of them a pitstop related issue and quite normal in GP racing.

[jj2728]

ivand911, on Jun 2 2012, 10:19, said:

It is his opinion, he doesn't need related car experience. His opinion is as good as yours. As we can see from the picture there is enough space left to the Alonso car. So he clearly steered too much. Also Alonso pushed him.
http://motorsport.ne...-bestof/132.jpg

No he did not steer too much, look at the video. There was very little if any steering input after Alonso punted him.

[BetaVersion]

TheBunk, on Jun 2 2012, 14:55, said:

I like Mark a lot, but is something wrong with his memory? In the sprint racing days there was no DRS, no overtaking, wich led to cruel and unjust victories like Kimis stealing of Fisi's Spa 2009 win.

Nobody was sprinting. All overtaking was done in the pits. Just look at the stats pre Pirellis racing vs now.

And, again, most of the fans seem to enjoy it a lot.

Its not perfect, but il have todays racing over and in the noughties.

Kimi "stole" Fisi's win solely due to another gimmick, the so called KERS.

jj2728, on Jun 2 2012, 16:41, said:

No he did not steer too much, look at the video. There was very little if any steering input after Alonso punted him.

Yeah, watching again, I agree with you. Grosjean was more of a victim, as well. Not that Alonso deserved a penalty or anything like that. It was just an unfortunate racing incident.

Edited by BetaVersion, 02 June 2012 - 20:12.

[Schumacher7]

Muz Bee, on Jun 2 2012, 02:35, said:

To KavB the answer to who was that driver;

Chris Amon - 3 seasons as lead driver at Ferrari, debut 1968 Monaco 3rd all downhill after that.
1968 started 8 out of 11 on front row incl 3 poles in a row, 7 DNFs. 1969 was so poor Ferrari withdrew mid point in season.

At least Michael's early seasons at Ferrari the car was reliable. And his bad luck this year, even by the modern standards isn't extreme. His best chance was spoiled by his own error in the previous race, a penalty which although just, does stain a great achievement at that majestic of circuits. Over his career Michael has had plenty of fortune on his side, and of course you do make a lot of your good fortune. I'm not one-eyed enough to deny Michael's apparent improvement from previous 2 seasons so far this year.

It would have made no difference, as even without the penalty he would have had to retire due to the mechanical issue (presuming it wasn't caused by the bump at the start), it would have been even more disappointing if he had to retire from 1st as well.

[F1Champion]

Paa, on Jun 2 2012, 15:01, said:

Beautiful pic.

[TheBunk]

BetaVersion, on Jun 2 2012, 21:09, said:

Kimi "stole" Fisi's win solely due to another gimmick, the so called KERS.

Yeah, watching again, I agree with you. Grosjean was more of a victim, as well. Not that Alonso deserved a penalty or anything like that. It was just an unfortunate racing incident.

Yea I forgot to add because of KERS.

[hammibal]

jj2728, on Jun 1 2012, 17:11, said:

Seriously, have you watched Grosjean's in car video? Show me how Grosjean is the one at fault. And when you say majority of F1 fans, don't you really mean majority of the Schumacher fanclub?

Looking at that video it was just a racing incident, the problem seemed to be caused by the slow starting Lewis which boxed the cars together behind him

[SeanValen]

Afterburner, on Jun 1 2012, 17:13, said:

So, I'll take a cue from the thread discussing Canada--what're the odds of winner number 7 this year coming at the 7th race, driving car number 7, being a certain 7-time World Champion who has already won there 7 times?

I was born on the 7th.


it's a good number in life. But to the extent of its powers throughout life consistently who knows.

Numbers are a religion themselfs.

[Szoelloe]

bleacher report, eh? where do you guys find these pages??? Its a hoax.

[Longtimefan]

Afterburner, on Jun 1 2012, 17:13, said:

So, I'll take a cue from the thread discussing Canada--what're the odds of winner number 7 this year coming at the 7th race, driving car number 7, being a certain 7-time World Champion who has already won there 7 times?

Thats rather freaky and is very similar to poor Francois Cevert, He was running in Car 6, Chassis 006, Engine number 66 on the 6th of October 1973.

I hope Michael has a lot more luck than poor Francois had.

Edited by Longtimefan, 03 June 2012 - 18:57.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Just found this little gem on Youtube



He wins the Japanese Grand Prix and wants to know what was the cause of Rubens' lack of pace and problems as well as where the others finished. In his prime this man was something else, he really was. So much extra capacity to be thinking of other things it is simply unreal.

[ivand911]

Great video, give you some perspectives. I hear something like this for the first time. Thanks.

[Dolph]

BetaVersion, on Jun 1 2012, 18:16, said:

Well, I see that the discussion regarding Grosjean was still on in the the "Part I" thread.

It's not only the majority of F1 fans that blames Grosjean for the accident. Sauber people are not happy either, this just shows that MSC fans are not looking for a scapegoat on GrowJohn

http://www.auto123.c...ref=facebookrec

I think its your own opinion that it is "majority of F1 fans" and "Sauber people are not happy" because the crash ended their drivers race. They are hardly impartial judges.

Furthermore, as long as we are changing peoples' names <--- (MOD EDIT!) This is unpleasant and unwelcome here in the forum, please address each other appropriately or not at all.

Edited by MightyMoose, 04 June 2012 - 01:27.
Removed: in order to get off by ridiculing them then I'm going to refer to you from now on as PornVersion. We'll see how you like your own medicine.

[MikeTekRacing]

Paa, on Jun 2 2012, 17:01, said:

Nice apex there.
I don't see why he left so much room on the inside, there was easily 1cm left there. He's lost it

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 04 June 2012 - 07:18.

[ivand911]

Quote

tabathavalls: So 3 drivers will reach 100 GP's this year: HAM & KOV in Germany, DLR in Italy. That's 300 altogether but in Belgium it will be MSC's 300th!

300th race at Spa? This will be something.

[jjpm]

Michael will need to perform 16 GPs en 2013 to put Rubens behind him in that statistical column... (assuming he will not miss any this year)

[Igorr]

Whitmarsh and Button have put quite a few good words for Michael after the Monaco pole.. Wondering if those words are any signs of desire for Michael in Macca for next year if Lewis decides to go for another team.. It would be hectic to see him against Button in a competitive car.

[exmayol]

Igorr, on Jun 4 2012, 16:03, said:

Whitmarsh and Button have put quite a few good words for Michael after the Monaco pole.. Wondering if those words are any signs of desire for Michael in Macca for next year if Lewis decides to go for another team.. It would be hectic to see him against Button in a competitive car.

I don't see MS leaving MGP although I for one would love to see him in a consistently fast car before he retires for good. Hopefully MGP will give him such a car on more than one occasion for the rest of 2012.

[BetaVersion]

Dolph, on Jun 3 2012, 18:31, said:

I think its your own opinion that it is "majority of F1 fans" and "Sauber people are not happy" because the crash ended their drivers race. They are hardly impartial judges.

Furthermore, as long as we are changing peoples' names <--- (MOD EDIT!) This is unpleasant and unwelcome here in the forum, please address each other appropriately or not at all.

I don't know how refering to the guy as "GrowJohn" is so ofensive to you. I'm not intending to say that he needs to grow. It's just how his name roughly sounds in original french

[Igorr]

apart from bahrain where he was fighting from the back and barcelona where he crashed, his performance both in quali and races have been very good. He would have been in top 5 in the points for sure.

Edited by Igorr, 05 June 2012 - 01:28.

[BetaVersion]

MikeTekRacing, on Jun 4 2012, 04:18, said:

Nice apex there.
I don't see why he left so much room on the inside, there was easily 1cm left there. He's lost it

I can't see the pic, what is it?

[TheBunk]

Andrew Benson sure eats crow these days. Check out this article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/18234511

"Michael Schumacher should stay at Mercedes - Ross Brawn"

Quite a change of tune, when Benson wrote only two weeks ago how some senior Merc boss said Schumacher was a mediocre driver and would likely retire.

[jjpm]

BetaVersion, on Jun 5 2012, 03:29, said:

I can't see the pic, what is it?

Most likely on the page before, yet it might not? and on this thread it should be easy to guess who ;)

Edited by jjpm, 05 June 2012 - 11:52.