460 replies to this topic

[halifaxf1fan]

Stats are funny that way, you can always find ones that suits your agenda. Perhaps its easier just stick in WDC standings (which are the ultimate goal for all drivers and thus only relevant stat after the season is over), rather than creat alternative reality by finding our own favourite stats for each and everyone?

Sorry if this is a sore point for you but it does show how a just count back on finishing positions can be misleading. In 2007 Alonso beat Hamilton almost 60% of the time!

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 08 August 2012 - 17:55.

[yr]

Sorry if this is a sore point for you but it does show how a just count back on finishing positions can be misleading. In 2007 Alonso beat Hamilton almost 60% of the time.

Because neither of those drivers is in the list of my favourite drivers, I havent spent much time to go through 2007 , particulary who retired in what race and for what reason and which one was ahead while one of them retired.

Just saying one finished ahead so and so many times when they both finished isnt actually telling anything, more details is needed before that can be considered even remotely serious argument, let alone being stronger argument than final standings.

[Ferrari2183]

Because neither of those drivers is in the list of my favourite drivers, I havent spent much time to go through 2007 , particulary who retired in what race and for what reason and which one was ahead while one of them retired.

Just saying one finished ahead so and so many times when they both finished isnt actually telling anything, more details is needed before that can be considered even remotely serious argument, let alone being stronger argument than final standings.

I think it is a silly argument to be honest. All it really means is that when Hamilton did finish in front of Alonso it was in a better scoring position. Nothing wrong with that... The result that actually matter is the points at the end of it all and in this case the count back.

[yr]

I think it is a silly argument to be honest. All it really means is that when Hamilton did finish in front of Alonso it was in a better scoring position. Nothing wrong with that... The result that actually matter is the points at the end of it all and in this case the count back.

Yeah, trying to recreate 2007 in a fashion were Alonso beat Hamilton is useless. Period.

I actually did some refresh of my poor memory by looking 2007 finishing positions from officialf1.com , you cant see from there who was leading when other retired, but I´m sure that at least in Japan were Hamilton won and Alonso crashed out on his own (driving error) Hamilton was leading Alonso when alonso mocked it up.

Another thing which is making this "10-7 when both finished" meanigless fanboy rambling, is that imagine if driver X wins 7 races and his teammate driver Z finish in all those races 15th, then driver Z finish in 10 races 19th and driver X finish in those race 20th. That hardly mean that driver Z (who finished in 10 races better) was the better one.

Like I said, its easy to find stats that will suit your agenda, but only one stat will not lie, doesnt twist the facts and isnt vulnerable to manipulation: Final standings.

[Headspin]

But resorting only to final standings don't tell the whole truth. That's why I like to watch races, read news, hear interviews etc and then make my own conclusion about drivers performance, I like to form my opinion based on what I see on track. It really bugs me that some people come to different conclusion and have different opinions when I know mine is right but what can you do?

Well, they're biased anyway.

[Ferrari2183]

But resorting only to final standings don't tell the whole truth. That's why I like to watch races, read news, hear interviews etc and then make my own conclusion about drivers performance, I like to form my opinion based on what I see on track. It really bugs me that some people come to different conclusion and have different opinions when I know mine is right but what can you do?

Well, they're biased anyway.

Hamilton beat Alonso on a count back is all that really matters in the grand scheme of things. If we are going to debate individual race performances (which ultimately decides the points standings) in 2007 then this is not the thread to do so unless it somehow proves that one driver is currently better than the other.

[yr]

True, final standings doesnt always tell the truth, especially if you compare driver in different teams as cars are different and there can be a huge gap between what is doable with one car or the other. Another thing which can make final standings meaningless, is if one driver has much more reliabity probs/bad luck/bad strategies compared to teammate. Neither of those apply to 2007 Mclaren drivers as far as I recall.

[as65p]

True, final standings doesnt always tell the truth, especially if you compare driver in different teams as cars are different and there can be a huge gap between what is doable with one car or the other. Another thing which can make final standings meaningless, is if one driver has much more reliabity probs/bad luck/bad strategies compared to teammate. Neither of those apply to 2007 Mclaren drivers as far as I recall.

Hm. First it's a straightforward "only the final results count" but now you arrived at a lot of IFs, and basically it's only so for McLaren in 2007.

Did you remember the Ferrari intra-team battle of 2008 / 2009, by any chance?

[topical]

Stats are funny that way, you can always find ones that suits your agenda. Perhaps its easier just stick in WDC standings (which are the ultimate goal for all drivers and thus only relevant stat after the season is over), rather than creat alternative reality by finding our own favourite stats for each and everyone?

Tell that to the Schumacher fans in the Schumacher versus Rosberg thread.

Edited by topical, 08 August 2012 - 17:40.

[Watkins74]

Hm. First it's a straightforward "only the final results count" but now you arrived at a lot of IFs, and basically it's only so for McLaren in 2007.

Did you remember the Ferrari intra-team battle of 2008 / 2009, by any chance?

You can be sure he doesn't think those WDC results tell the full story.

[MightyMoose]

Well I think we should have a new Autosport Forum rule:

1st poster to mention Alonso/Hamilton 2007 in any topic that isn't "THE DEFINITIVE 2007 TOPIC" automatically loses the argument. Plus the added bonus of everyone knowing that poster is responsible for the thread being closed.

On that basis, I'll let everyone work out who lost this argument and consider the thread is now done & dusted as we're once again on stuff that has no resemblance to the topic.

Spa can't come quickly enough!