403 replies to this topic

[Kingshark]

I am once again reminded to why I dislike Red Bull with such a passion, they (Horner, Marko & Vettel) make it so easy to hate.

[engel]

Vettel had everything in favour. A couple of SC in the right moment, collisions in front of guys who would have been around him when his second pit stop (Webber, Grosejan, Perez....). The guy was solid, but today he didn´t do that sensational race some people is praising.

oh god people do you even watch the races? Perez and co collided BEHIND Vettel AFTER his 2nd pitstop

Vettel was P4 on "merit" the SC just gave him a shot at P3 (else he would have ended up 20 seconds behind Button)

I am once again reminded to why I dislike Red Bull with such a passion, they (Horner, Marko & Vettel) make it so easy to hate.

yeah you sound covincing the more you post that gif, an overtake for p14 is what is wrong with F1 )
The internet would be so much better with less trolling.

Edited by engel, 05 November 2012 - 06:39.

[Seanspeed]

I give them credit, I just don't think he performed a super human feat like you seem to. Similarly trying to convince you of the fact not everything needs to be a superlative is an equal waste of time.

We'll have to disagree on that. Obviously, you see Alonso's race and you say, "Oh, that means the Ferrari was a great car", but I saw it as,"Damn, Alonso really maximized what was looking like a difficult weekend for the team", but again, just a difference of opinion.

It wasn't a superhuman effort, but he was easily driver of the race. Who else did anything comparably impressive?

[apoka]

Its a competitive car, but there were a fair amount of more competitive cars out there. If you insist on downplaying that, I'm gonna have to accuse you of bias, sorry. No way any reasonable person can say Alonso wasn't fantastic yet again.

When Vettel is flawless, wins and dominates like in the 4 races before, there are lots of people around not calling his races "fantastic" as well. I think Alonso drove a very good race and did what was possible, but I don't think that everyone necessarily has to call it fantastic.

On the bias thing you mentioned, we had favourite driver poll on the board:

Vettel: 16
Hamilton: 48
Alonso: 30
Kimi: 61

http://forums.autosp...avourite driver

I don't see why there should be a huge positive bias towards Vettel on this board - quite the opposite (especially with both Hamilton and Alonso making statements, which likely also lead to a more negative opinion on Vettel of their respective fans). Many people praising him or defending him in here apparently are not his fans.

[pUs]

We'll have to disagree on that. Obviously, you see Alonso's race and you say, "Oh, that means the Ferrari was a great car", but I saw it as,"Damn, Alonso really maximized what was looking like a difficult weekend for the team", but again, just a difference of opinion.

It wasn't a superhuman effort, but he was easily driver of the race. Who else did anything comparably impressive?

Well, starting from the pitlane and driving up to third place was quite decent, don't you think? If not better, then certainly comparable..

[exmayol]

SV had a superb race! Really happy for him!

[Ferrari2183]

Would he have needed to?

That's not the point. Due to a technicality he was allowed to change parts and setup despite being penalised.

What Red Bull did was to Vettel's benefit and it made it easier for him to overtake when in normal circumstances it would have been difficult. See Webber. The changes went some way to negating the effect of the penalty but that is not Red Bull's fault.

To those who believe the first safety car didn't help Vettel... It did, and significantly so. Vettel was in 13th position and 24 seconds behind the leader prior to its deployment. Had they continued on without the safety car to about lap 25 which was the estimated pit stop window, he would have been miles behind by then.

[Seanspeed]

When Vettel is flawless, wins and dominates like in the 4 races before, there are lots of people around not calling his races "fantastic" as well. I think Alonso drove a very good race and did what was possible, but I don't think that everyone necessarily has to call it fantastic.

On the bias thing you mentioned, we had favourite driver poll on the board:

Vettel: 16
Hamilton: 48
Alonso: 30
Kimi: 61

http://forums.autosp...avourite driver

I don't see why there should be a huge positive bias towards Vettel on this board - quite the opposite (especially with both Hamilton and Alonso making statements, which likely also lead to a more negative opinion on Vettel of their respective fans). Many people praising him or defending him in here apparently are not his fans.

I dont see what any of this has to do with me, but ok.

Well, starting from the pitlane and driving up to third place was quite decent, don't you think? If not better, then certainly comparable..

If you're the sort that likes to base their opinions on Wikipedia pages, then yes, I can see how you'd think that.

Me? I actually watch these events.

Edited by Seanspeed, 05 November 2012 - 07:00.

[prty]

Well, starting from the pitlane and driving up to third place was quite decent, don't you think? If not better, then certainly comparable..

"Pitlane to third" will be repeated until sick to justify Vettel is not bad through traffic I guess, but he screwed up twice in the race, plus all the moving aside and factors that I'm not repeating again. It wasn't even close to say Japan 2005, even though he gained more places, but oh well, each to their own.

[bmardini]

Vettel had a good race but really it wasn't anything extraordinary. From P24, he passed 6 cars that were essentially backmarkers, 2 cars that were sister team. Then, ahead of him, loads of cars hit trouble. There were 10 retirements in total.

His "race" position should have been P6 or P7. But, Webber had a terrible day and eventually was ordered out of the way (though Vettel would have passed him for sure) and Massa wound up being compromised... Grosjean having to pit early and creating that train made things a LOT easier for SV but thats strategy, not so much luck - RB correctly took advantage of the situation.

Then Button decided to snooze in the last laps, calling his pass "brave" is BS, Button blew it and he knows it.

So Vettel winds up P3. Good for him, great drive.

As for the safety cars

The first SC allowed him to close up to the field as well as pit for fresh rubber and a new nose. Ordinarily he should have driven till the first pitstops missing that endplate. No matter. The 2nd safety car basically allowed him to attack the top 4, otherwise he would have been 15s off and without a hope in hell of catching let alone passing the leaders.

Now, what really made the biggest difference to his race was Grosjean; he sort of wound up on the same strategy as SV due to early incidents, however the RB was much faster and so SV was able to benefit from Grosjean creating a train from 5th all the way to 10th. Again as I said above that was good pitlane strategy from RB and certainly good pace from SV. Probably the most important move SV made all race was the early-ish pass on Grosjean; the Lotus is a quick car with good straight line speed. Once he cleared Grosjean he was almost certain of a top 6 finish.

[mlsnoopy]

The SC gifted him 40s compared to his rivals. He was lucky nothing else.

[Sakae]

The SC gifted him 40s compared to his rivals. He was lucky nothing else.

Perhaps luck is a part of the whole deal. To illustrate my point, Alonso is lucky he didn't have puncture, or Vettel didn't win the race, because it would have been over for red team right there. This "luck" thing spils in many directions. Alonso was actually lucky that Vettel was send back on the grid, isn't that the truth?

Edited by Sakae, 05 November 2012 - 07:30.

[apoka]

To those who believe the first safety car didn't help Vettel... It did, and significantly so. Vettel was in 13th position and 24 seconds behind the leader prior to its deployment. Had they continued on without the safety car to about lap 25 which was the estimated pit stop window, he would have been miles behind by then.

Not really. Comparison to other drivers and their pace before the SC as well as gaps:

Maldonado: http://en.mclarenf-1...do#.UJdokBJ3Sok
- Vettel slower before SC, but Maldonado struggled in 2nd stint
- gap before (lap 8) / after SC (lap 17): 17.8s / 18.0s

Button: http://en.mclarenf-1...on#.UJdmzRJ3Sok
- Vettel faster before SC
- gap before / after SC: 15.4s /16.1s

Webber: http://en.mclarenf-1.....2=Mark Webber
- Vettel a bit faster before SC
- gap before / after SC: 15.4s / 16.1s

Alonso: http://en.mclarenf-1...so#.UJdn-hJ3Sok
- about the same speed before SC
- gap before / after SC: 16.2s / 17.0s

Kimi: http://en.mclarenf-1...en#.UJdoRxJ3Sok
- slower before SC
- gap before / after SC: 19.9s / 20.4s

Hamilton: http://en.mclarenf-1...on#.UJdnbBJ3Sok
- much slower before SC
- gap before / after SC: 24.9s / 23.1s

There was no chance to get Hamilton or Kimi in a problem free race, not much chance to get Alonso, but everything else was possible and P4 plausible from the sample we have - as you can see the gap wasn't that huge and Maldonado whom he would have to overtake to get to P4 struggled later. You also have to keep in mind that Vettel did his first stint on the harder tyre and in traffic.

What do others think? Where could Vettel have ended up without SCs?

[gillesthegenius]

We'll have to disagree on that. Obviously, you see Alonso's race and you say, "Oh, that means the Ferrari was a great car", but I saw it as,"Damn, Alonso really maximized what was looking like a difficult weekend for the team", but again, just a difference of opinion.

It wasn't a superhuman effort, but he was easily driver of the race. Who else did anything comparably impressive?

Well, I thought Kimi did a better job than Alonso and Vettel obviously did too.

[LB]

Really obvious when somebody just doesn't want to give Ferrari/Alonso credit.

I could sit here and try and reason with you, but that would obviously be a waste of time.

and its also really obvious when someone just doesn't want to give Vettel credit. Both had good races and pretty much maximised what they could do, that's why they are fighting for the championship.

Oh and a Ferrari in race trim is far from the fourth fastest car

[Ferrari2183]

and its also really obvious when someone just doesn't want to give Vettel credit. Both had good races and pretty much maximised what they could do, that's why they are fighting for the championship.

Oh and a Ferrari in race trim is far from the fourth fastest car

This is true. The only problem I have with Vettel's race is the scruffiness of that first stint. Had Senna suffered damage there is little doubt in my mind he would have received a drive through.

It also helped that he changed his setup.

[Cesc]

oh god people do you even watch the races? Perez and co collided BEHIND Vettel AFTER his 2nd pitstop

Vettel was P4 on "merit" the SC just gave him a shot at P3 (else he would have ended up 20 seconds behind Button)

I didn´t put it correctly. Without the first SC, he would have been behind these guys. The first SC let him with fresher tires and no difference to the top guys.

[ZuTiMa]

And what about Vettel?

Speed track today:.........................................Qualifying Speed

1 P. MALDONADO 324.8 18:16:11....................325.8 same
2 B. SENNA 324.2 17:41:44.............................323.0 same
3 S. PEREZ 322.5 18:10:46.............................322.2 same
4 S. VETTEL 321.0 18:30:58........................311.4 +10km/h
5 F. MASSA 319.9 17:07:59.............................320.0 same
6 F. ALONSO 319.6 17:43:19.................319.7 same

Sector 2 maximum speeds (the sector with drs zones):

B. SENNA 312.9
S. VETTEL 311.6
P. DI RESTA 311.3
F. MASSA 311.0
F. ALONSO 310.5

Edited by ZuTiMa, 05 November 2012 - 08:35.

[Konsta]

In the end Seb needed to deliver and that he did in a big way. FA was not able to overtake Petrov in the same track two years ago so it was not exactly a walk in the park for SV methinks.
What I really cannot comprehend is why FA is the only one who can be lucky and deserving simultaneously?

Seb drove a mega race yesterday - anyone not giving him credit is blinded by either hate or fanboism.

And BTW, I´m glad that "my guy" won yesterdays race

[Cesc]

Seb drove a mega race yesterday - anyone not giving him credit is blinded by either hate or fanboism.

He did a better race in SPA, for example. Yesterday he got 40s from SCars, that´s a fact. He had quite a few very good laps in softs when he was second, just before his second pit stop. Still, I agree that it is part of the game, it has always been and it´ll be. As Alonso got a great "gift" in Valencia that ultimately helped him to win as well.

[Konsta]

He did a better race in SPA, for example. Yesterday he got 40s from SCars, that´s a fact. He had quite a few very good laps in softs when he was second, just before his second pit stop. Still, I agree that it is part of the game, it has always been and it´ll be. As Alonso got a great "gift" in Valencia that ultimately helped him to win as well.

I agree. OTOH I would not put Seb´s performance yesterday down - he delivered when needed. I really dislike it when the same people who hail FA´s race in Valencia as 2nd coming are totally unwilling to give Seb any credit. Without luck (and unluck for others) there was NOT ANY WAY Fernando would´ve won in Valencia.

Edited by Konsta, 05 November 2012 - 08:53.

[DarthWillie]

-Hamilton = carbreaker
-Kimi = poor qualifier, poor overtaking
-Alonso = superior car yet can't win against a lotus, lucky everone
-Button = poor race with rocketship
etc etc
If you really want it is very easy to discredit everyones race, Vettel could never win this. Starting from the back he would been accused of having a rocketship or luck if he finished on the podium, or poor driving if he finished lower.

[choyothe]

What do others think? Where could Vettel have ended up without SCs?

4th easily, the only thing that helped him position wise was 2nd SC in allowing him a chance of Button. He still had to make a great pass on him with a car that had a moderate pace advantage, on a track that is extremely hard to overtake on (don't let Vettel's show fool you).

Those saying Alonso was driver of the day:

1) he passed Button in turn 1 after Button compromised his position and someone pushed him to the kerbs, so not an overtake
2) he passed Webber on the straight with superior speed, was already ahead into the braking zone, no skill involved (although I agree Webber was very weak there)
3) he only passed Maldo bc he made a mistake and went wide, nothing Alonso did, Alonso already ahead into the braking zone with Ferraris ridiculous top speed, Maldos tyres were gone anyway
4) "Alonso had the 4th fastest car out there"

Seb, Kimi and Hamilton who wins were all much, much better than Alonso. Alonso did what Alonso does best, inherits.

[mnmracer]

If not for the first safety car:
* he would not have damaged his front wing to the point it needed replacement.
* he would not have had to go in to change his front wing.
* he would not have dropped to the back of the field again.
* he would have kept setting times similar to the frontrunners, while their soft tires were starting to drop off earlier.
* he would have made a stop in lap 40 for a late run on fresh softs (the only set he had left, which he now had to put on in lap 15)

Now, dropping all the BS like “many drivers DNFing ahead of him” (1) and “all the drivers pitting ahead of him” (4), how was Vettel lucky with that first safety car? The only luck Vettel arguably had was the second safety car which put him right behind Button, but considering his pace over Button before the first SC ruined his strategy, there’s a good chance he would have caught him without the safety cars.

[prty]

Alonso is lucky he didn't have puncture, [...]
Alonso was actually lucky that Vettel was send back on the grid, isn't that the truth?

No, and an explanation is not needed...
Nope, that's a cock up by Red Bull, their direct rivals, not luck via externalities, like SC's.

[apoka]

He did a better race in SPA, for example. Yesterday he got 40s from SCars, that´s a fact.

40 seconds relative to whom? Hamilton/Kimi? How much did the relevant cars around him win? I just opened a discussion on this a few posts up with gaps before / after the first SC.

Edited by apoka, 05 November 2012 - 09:27.

[Borko]

In the end Seb needed to deliver and that he did in a big way. FA was not able to overtake Petrov in the same track two years ago so it was not exactly a walk in the park for SV methinks.
What I really cannot comprehend is why FA is the only one who can be lucky and deserving simultaneously?

This must be a joke or what? I am sure you know DRS didn't exist in 2010.

[bmardini]

4th easily, the only thing that helped him position wise was 2nd SC in allowing him a chance of Button. He still had to make a great pass on him with a car that had a moderate pace advantage, on a track that is extremely hard to overtake on (don't let Vettel's show fool you).

Those saying Alonso was driver of the day:

1) he passed Button in turn 1 after Button compromised his position and someone pushed him to the kerbs, so not an overtake
2) he passed Webber on the straight with superior speed, was already ahead into the braking zone, no skill involved (although I agree Webber was very weak there)
3) he only passed Maldo bc he made a mistake and went wide, nothing Alonso did, Alonso already ahead into the braking zone with Ferraris ridiculous top speed, Maldos tyres were gone anyway
4) "Alonso had the 4th fastest car out there"

Seb, Kimi and Hamilton who wins were all much, much better than Alonso. Alonso did what Alonso does best, inherits.

I would say Fail post of the year, but luckily you have a lot of competition. Especially 2), like, wow.

[Ferrari2183]

4th easily, the only thing that helped him position wise was 2nd SC in allowing him a chance of Button. He still had to make a great pass on him with a car that had a moderate pace advantage, on a track that is extremely hard to overtake on (don't let Vettel's show fool you).

Those saying Alonso was driver of the day:

1) he passed Button in turn 1 after Button compromised his position and someone pushed him to the kerbs, so not an overtake
2) he passed Webber on the straight with superior speed, was already ahead into the braking zone, no skill involved (although I agree Webber was very weak there)
3) he only passed Maldo bc he made a mistake and went wide, nothing Alonso did, Alonso already ahead into the braking zone with Ferraris ridiculous top speed, Maldos tyres were gone anyway
4) "Alonso had the 4th fastest car out there"

Seb, Kimi and Hamilton who wins were all much, much better than Alonso. Alonso did what Alonso does best, inherits.

And we go from one extreme to the next. You do realise that Vettel's top speed was higher than Alonso's.

[fastwriter]

4th easily, the only thing that helped him position wise was 2nd SC in allowing him a chance of Button. He still had to make a great pass on him with a car that had a moderate pace advantage, on a track that is extremely hard to overtake on (don't let Vettel's show fool you).

Those saying Alonso was driver of the day:

1) he passed Button in turn 1 after Button compromised his position and someone pushed him to the kerbs, so not an overtake
2) he passed Webber on the straight with superior speed, was already ahead into the braking zone, no skill involved (although I agree Webber was very weak there)
3) he only passed Maldo bc he made a mistake and went wide, nothing Alonso did, Alonso already ahead into the braking zone with Ferraris ridiculous top speed, Maldos tyres were gone anyway
4) "Alonso had the 4th fastest car out there"

Seb, Kimi and Hamilton who wins were all much, much better than Alonso. Alonso did what Alonso does best, inherits.

Agree with most of your thoughts, but it is also a quality to be at the right place at the right time to inherit. Alonso does this much better than for example Massa - thats one of the reasons he is so far ahead of him in the races, while in Qualifying Massa has closed the gap in the last couple of GPs and is as fast as Alonso.

Edited by fastwriter, 05 November 2012 - 09:29.

[choyothe]

And we go from one extreme to the next. You do realise that Vettel's top speed was higher than Alonso's.

Why do you bring Vettel into it? I was analyzing Alonso's race and moves and not comparing them to anyone else.

Fact is, he with penalty to Vettel, Hamilton retiring and Button and Webber performing badly, Alonso should've won this race in order for it to be a great drive. Now it's an okay one, he qualified poorly with his updates and lost out to Kimi there, then couldn't challenge him with the better race car when in position.

Alonso's move on Webber was the best moment of his race though, not denying that. I explained why his move on Button wasn't a move (unless the conclusion is 4-5 drivers should be credited for "overtaking" Alonso at the start of Australia 2011 for example, which is clearly false), and he passed Maldo bc of his mistake on worn tyres and was clearly ahead when arriving to the braking zone. Just like his move on the Mclarens and Webber in India, I don't see what's special about that.

[Goron3]

This thread really does prove that people have no idea how to differentiate a 'great drive' from a 'great result'. Reminds me of Monaco 2008 when Hamilton binned the car and ironically that pit stop won him the race.

[LiJu914]

It wasn't a superhuman effort, but he was easily driver of the race. Who else did anything comparably impressive?

Yes,of course he was... except for the guy, who dominated the field and retired, and except for the guy, who won, and except for the guy, who started last and finished third.

[Konsta]

This must be a joke or what? I am sure you know DRS didn't exist in 2010.

Of course
Yesterday was the day of 3 great champions and IMHO Alonso fanboys have been doing their best to discredit his rivals any which way they can. Totally uncalled-for IMO.

[Infinityl]

Of course
Yesterday was the day of 3 great champions and IMHO Alonso fanboys have been doing their best to discredit his rivals any which way they can. Totally uncalled-for IMO.

Not about discreding Vettel, is about do the credit he won yesterday, and compare his race with Alonso's race in Valencia is a joke.

[Fourjays]

Vettel was lucky in that a lot of the cars in front disappeared and the timing of the safety cars benefited him. However, without that luck I think he still would have ended up 7th-8th which is pretty good from the back.

I still wouldn't rate Vettel's racecraft as good as Hamilton's or Alonso's, but as I've said before, I don't think it is his fault. Red Bull's young drivers program promotes them on speed alone, which seems to leave their drivers somewhat lacking in racecraft. Vettel has had to learn the hard way and he has continually improved in this area.

[sopa]

I am telling you one thing guys. It is said that Ferrari is an average car, which Alonso makes look good with his brilliance (look at where Massa was).

But one thing you fail to notice, folks.
Red Bull isn't that good either, but Vettel is making it look great with his brilliance. Again look at where Webber was and what he was doing, nothing really. Webber wasn't even faster than Massa, and this is Massa, who doesn't have the new Ferrari upgrades. In Korea Massa was faster than Webber too. So make your conclusions. Webber is decent, but Vettel is outstanding.

;)

Edited by sopa, 05 November 2012 - 10:01.

[Sakae]

No, and an explanation is not needed...
Nope, that's a cock up by Red Bull, their direct rivals, not luck via externalities, like SC's.

Vettel's race position was impacted by equipment malfunction, as it was reported. I would call it bad luck for Vettel, and good luck for Alonso. What else is it?

Edited by Sakae, 05 November 2012 - 09:59.

[sopa]

The Ferrari was slower than the Lotus, the Mclaren and the Red Bull, but yea, Alonso didn't do anything special.

Well, mate. Looking at how Massa with an outdated car was faster than Webber, I guess Red Bull was actually the fourth fastest car in this race.

I find it mindblowing, how people keep harping on Alonso and Hamilton outperforming their cars, but fail to see that Vettel is doing the very same. That's why Red Bull LOOKS dominant. Well, in qualifying they may be good, but in race trim not that special.

[Kvothe]

I am telling you one thing guys. It is said that Ferrari is an average car, which Alonso makes look good with his brilliance (look at where Massa was).

But one thing you fail to notice, folks.
Red Bull isn't that good either, but Vettel is making it look great with his brilliance. Again look at where Webber was and what he was doing, nothing really. Webber wasn't even faster than Massa, and this is Massa, who doesn't have the new Ferrari upgrades. In Korea Massa was faster than Webber too. So make your conclusions. Webber is decent, but Vettel is outstanding.

;)

In what world?

Webber just had a nightmare race, but you do recall him overtaking Massa before the latter spun yes?

Webber had the pace, but the lack of top speed in comparison to Vettel really hurt him especially in regards to his battle with Alonso and Maldonado, and Red Bull essentially sacrificed his race for Vettel pitting him behind the Grosjean, Di resta Perez train just to make way for him.

[Kvothe]

Well, mate. Looking at how Massa with an outdated car was faster than Webber, I guess Red Bull was actually the fourth fastest car in this race.

I find it mindblowing, how people keep harping on Alonso and Hamilton outperforming their cars, but fail to see that Vettel is doing the very same. That's why Red Bull LOOKS dominant. Well, in qualifying they may be good, but in race trim not that special.

Well judging from Button's performance the McLaren was actually the fourth best car behind Red Bull (including Webber), Ferrari and Lotus who all outpaced him, and Lewis outperformed the car......

#failedlogic

Edited by Kvothe, 05 November 2012 - 10:10.

[pUs]

I dont see what any of this has to do with me, but ok.


If you're the sort that likes to base their opinions on Wikipedia pages, then yes, I can see how you'd think that.

Me? I actually watch these events.

Uhm.. no need to be impolite. Wikipedia, what are you on about? Anybody who disagrees with you didn't watch? Really clever.

I happened to watch that race too and for once I actually watched it pretty intensively since my favorite driver looked to be on course for his first victory this year. To then see him win was just awesome. But that didn't stop me from being impressed by all the three top runners, just a splendid GP in general..

May I ask what Vettel should have done, specifically, to earn any kind of 'impressive' credit in your eyes yesterday?

Edited by pUs, 05 November 2012 - 10:17.

[sopa]

Well judging from Button's performance the McLaren was actually the fourth best car behind Red Bull (including Webber), Ferrari and Lotus who all outpaced him, and Lewis outperformed the car......

#failedlogic

Yes, why not. I am just showing that you can argue in any way you want. I am half-joking/half-serious. The serious part comes in that if people genuinely think and say that Hamilton and Alonso are doing special things in their cars, then Vettel is doing the very same, if not more.

In any case, we had Hamilton, Raikkonen, Alonso and Vettel all well above their team-mates this race. We can say they all ""outperformed"" their cars as their team-mates were incapable of making an impression in cars, which in the right hands were capable of winning.

Edited by sopa, 05 November 2012 - 10:20.

[karlth]

This thread really does prove that people have no idea how to differentiate a 'great drive' from a 'great result'. Reminds me of Monaco 2008 when Hamilton binned the car and ironically that pit stop won him the race.

The difference is that Hamilton was much, much faster than anyone else during that race. Was Vettel that much faster than Webber? Didn't look like it.

[pUs]

This thread really does prove that people have no idea how to differentiate a 'great drive' from a 'great result'. Reminds me of Monaco 2008 when Hamilton binned the car and ironically that pit stop won him the race.

Yeah, sure. That's your opinion.

Alternatively, this thread really does prove that people have no idea how to differentiate 'annoying piece of result by a driver I dislike' and 'great driving'. Goes both ways and doesn't add much to the discussion.

Edited by pUs, 05 November 2012 - 10:22.

[Ferrari2183]

Why do you bring Vettel into it? I was analyzing Alonso's race and moves and not comparing them to anyone else.

Fact is, he with penalty to Vettel, Hamilton retiring and Button and Webber performing badly, Alonso should've won this race in order for it to be a great drive. Now it's an okay one, he qualified poorly with his updates and lost out to Kimi there, then couldn't challenge him with the better race car when in position.

Alonso's move on Webber was the best moment of his race though, not denying that. I explained why his move on Button wasn't a move (unless the conclusion is 4-5 drivers should be credited for "overtaking" Alonso at the start of Australia 2011 for example, which is clearly false), and he passed Maldo bc of his mistake on worn tyres and was clearly ahead when arriving to the braking zone. Just like his move on the Mclarens and Webber in India, I don't see what's special about that.

You said Alonso's pass on Webber wasn't really a pass because he had ridiculous top speed. Now can we from that statement deduce that none of Vettel's overtakes were actually overtakes due to his ridiculous top speed.

Also, you're crediting Vettel for his overtake on Button but you're dismissing Alonso's overtake on Maldonado. Button was on worn, slower tyres and suffering with traction when Vettel overtook him.

I see you throw around the words double standards quite a bit in the forums. Wouldn't you say the above is a double standard?

As for Alonso underperforming, I think you should take a look at the amount of time he lost to tyre heating issues which he confirmed after the race. Without accounting for the pit stop he lost about 8 seconds to those ahead of him just from the safety cars. That's plenty time dude but to answer your question Alonso had a good day at the office. Nothing extraordinary.

[Xpat]

Seems to me if he had languished near the back or finished 10th his detractors would have used the result to argue he sucked and is only good when at the front (as if starting at the front is easy to achieve). But he finishes 3rd from 24th and they try to explain it away. Can't have it both ways.

[pUs]

As for Alonso underperforming, I think you should take a look at the amount of time he lost to tyre heating issues which he confirmed after the race. Without accounting for the pit stop he lost about 8 seconds to those ahead of him just from the safety cars. That's plenty time dude but to answer your question Alonso had a good day at the office. Nothing extraordinary.

Alonso performed really well and did a great race as usual, no question about that.

Don't agree about the SC though, if I remember correctly he was something like 9 seconds behind Kimi, which was then just wiped out when the 2nd SC arrived. I don't think it would have been as close without this, but sure, Alonso seemed to have trouble getting the tires up to temp so perhaps it evened out a bit.

[sopa]

In what world?

Webber just had a nightmare race, but you do recall him overtaking Massa before the latter spun yes?

Webber had the pace, but the lack of top speed in comparison to Vettel really hurt him especially in regards to his battle with Alonso and Maldonado, and Red Bull essentially sacrificed his race for Vettel pitting him behind the Grosjean, Di resta Perez train just to make way for him.

Webber indeed was trying to overtake Massa, but I don't remember him ever having serious pace in that race, even when he had clean air.

[LiJu914]

The difference is that Hamilton was much, much faster than anyone else during that race. Was Vettel that much faster than Webber? Didn't look like it.

1. Yeah except for the first 30 laps or so, in which massa was the fastest guy on track.
2. And how did you measure it? SV was behind Webber at half time despite starting 22places behind him. Now you can use the "Webber stuck in traffic"-argument, but how can you then say how fast he was exactly, that it would lead you to your assumption?