84 replies to this topic

[Kucki]

I was standing infront of the TV shouting the whole race in Abu Dhabi 2010. Alonso will go into the history of the sport as one of the greatest deservedly. But not for his overtaking skills. More for his sheer speed and the way he won his championship great consistant driving.

Back then Alonso was not driving according to theres a championship on the line. He was following Petrov resignated like a shadow while Petrov was mirror-driving all the time. Petrov was under harsh critisism all year with people seriously questioning his error rate. He sure was not going to be the dumbass who decided the world championship. Everytime Alonso was even just slightly looking, you could see the defensive body language of Petrovs car. Petrov was sooo going to yield at the first opportunity. Alonso never tried it even just once.

As soon as it looked like it might be all over Alonso should have just kept his foot in and bonzai moved to the inside under breaking. Alonso needed to be a little Nigel Mansel about it. Abit of Montoya. Anyone thinks Montoya would have followed Petrov til the end? Montoya would have dive bombed to the inside in a way that would have gone wrong nine out of ten times. But this one time just went on to the next guy who would have heard it on the radio: Watch out for Alonso he's coming up and his driving with a chip on his shoulder. The risk/reward odds were clear so he should have went for it and many other drivers (Hamilton) would have. Sometimes you need to force the issue.

Remember Silvester Stallone in that armtwisting movie were he turns his cap around and takes it to another level. Alonso never turned his cap around in that race. Yesterday also he needed to be that young aggressive Alonso in that Minardi, not that super reliable errorfree calculated genious he grew up to be.

Tonight maybe hopefully necessarily we are going to see a different attitude Alonso. Yeah he needed to manage his points lead up so far in the season and be careful, but from now on he can spanish bullfight his way through like he aint got nothing more to lose.

Alonso once again yesterday, just like last week in Austin was slow and passive in a Qualifying crunch time situation. I sense he does not have that "magic" to elevate his game to another level in big pressure situations. He rather stays considerate, thoughtful, super consistant, mistake free etc. Its the way he won his championships , carefully managing what he has, not beeing aggressive. Its just his mental racing style, the way he approaches it whether its the first race or last race of the season, what you see is what you get, consistant, mistake free driving. I hope someone from Ferrari is going to tell him on the grid: "Dont bring the car home in 5th or 6th place, dont get stuck behind anybody. You either finish on the podium or you crash. Be aggressive tonight! You are free to do so, anything else will get us nowhere"

Edited by Kucki, 25 November 2012 - 10:19.

[Smile17]

To make things short; Alonso is known to usually excel in high pressure situations.' Unlike someone like Schumacher, imo. What is it with people on this forum changing opinions in a fraction of a second?

Edited by Smile17, 25 November 2012 - 10:21.

[undersquare]

Nando was going for it in Fuji 07.

But people, even commentators, overestimate the scope for banzai moves IMO. There's only a tiny difference between a safe pass and viable-but-risky. If they brake stupidly late they just crash out.

[MrMontecarlo]

I actually think Alonso is very good in high pressure situations. In Brazil 2005 and 2006 he did exactly what he had to do. In Brazil 2007 he couldn't compete with the Ferraris so played it smart and stayed in 3rd hoping for a Ferrari failure. Hamilton wasn't smart enough to do the same.

Abu Dhabi 2010 is the only time when he didn't perform well under pressure. Also, Alonso is a good overtaker, but as you say he sometimes lacks the determination to make a risky move. Most of the times he waits for the best moment to pass and executes the overtake perfectly and safely. That works well nearly always but sometimes you need to risk a bit more.

Hamilton is the best overtaker in the grid, he goes for it as soon as possible, without losing time behind the other car.

Edited by MrMontecarlo, 25 November 2012 - 10:47.

[marcm]

You've got to love the perspective of the armchair expert. On TV it might look easy to divebomb some to take the place, but an experienced driver knows the difference between a speculative passing attempt and a wreckless/dangerous one. F1 may look safe from behind your TV but the dangers are rather more obvious behind the wheel.

[turssi]

I don't think he should (or even could) change. Driving extremely well while taking advantage of the mistakes that the other pilots/teams/cars produce is what he does. Minimum crashing to be expected.

[MrMontecarlo]

You've got to love the perspective of the armchair expert. On TV it might look easy to divebomb some to take the place, but an experienced driver knows the difference between a speculative passing attempt and a wreckless/dangerous one. F1 may look safe from behind your TV but the dangers are rather more obvious behind the wheel.

Of course it is extremely difficult and only the best drivers in the world can do it, that's why they get paid millions. Some drivers are a bit better than others doing it, that's all I'm saying.

[kosmos]

Abu Dhabi 2010 is the only time when he didn't perform well under pressure.

I don't think that has anything to do with pressure, it was not possible to overtake Petrov because the speed of the car (he needed to overtake more people to win by the way), other drivers couldn't overtake technically inferior cars that day.

[scheivlak]

In Brazil 2005 and 2006 he did exactly what he had to do.

Neither races were really high pressure situations. The races just preceding them were more like that, especially Suzuka 2006 - when he performed admirably, IMHO one of his best drives ever.

His only failure in such a situation was Fuji 2007, in the rain....

[pRy]

Petrov was sooo going to yield at the first opportunity. Alonso never tried it even just once.

I think you need to re-watch the highlights from the race. There were a couple of 50/50 moves Alonso tried on Petrov. One resulted in him locking up and leaving black lines on the track to avoid crashing into him. The problem Alonso faced that day is he needed to pass Petrov but he also needed to finish the race. He had to balance risk vs reward. Perhaps he felt that day that Petrov wasn't in the mood to yield easily. I think Hamilton also got stuck behind a renault too, not sure if it was Petrov or the other one. He was in the same plight.

Either way.. I think to suggest Alonso never tried a pass is wrong. As is to suggest Petrov was just waiting to get out of the way. Alonso's 50/50 moves on him suggested he wasn't about to get out of the way.

Here's a screenshot of the lockup I talk of above. Crappy quality as the F1.com highlights are no longer online: http://img39.imagesh...lonsopetrov.jpg

[rolf123]

You clearly don't understand how cars have changed since Mansell's days.

The only way Alonso could have even had a sniff is to brake later. If he brakes later, he would likely have caused a collision. These days its nigh on impossible to do a "banzai" move down the inside.

OK Kobayashi has done it on occasion. As much as I like his driving, I'll be the first to admit that he has been very lucky with those moves to have gotten not just a little, but a lot of cooperation from the driver in front.

Late braking just doesn't exist anymore in F1. It's not like other racing series.

[KnucklesAgain]

You are opening way too many useless threads

[karlth]

You are opening way too many useless threads

Why?

It is a very relative and interesting subject.

[Frankbullitt]

Yeah, he is brutal under pressure, like in Imola in 2005, awful.

[motorhead]

He has been underperforming in qualifying in these last decisive races

[Nitropower]

I was standing infront of the TV shouting the whole race in Abu Dhabi 2010. Alonso will go into the history of the sport as one of the greatest deservedly. But not for his overtaking skills. More for his sheer speed and the way he won his championship great consistant driving.

Back then Alonso was not driving according to theres a championship on the line. He was following Petrov resignated like a shadow while Petrov was mirror-driving all the time. Petrov was under harsh critisism all year with people seriously questioning his error rate. He sure was not going to be the dumbass who decided the world championship. Everytime Alonso was even just slightly looking, you could see the defensive body language of Petrovs car. Petrov was sooo going to yield at the first opportunity. Alonso never tried it even just once.

As soon as it looked like it might be all over Alonso should have just kept his foot in and bonzai moved to the inside under breaking. Alonso needed to be a little Nigel Mansel about it. Abit of Montoya. Anyone thinks Montoya would have followed Petrov til the end? Montoya would have dive bombed to the inside in a way that would have gone wrong nine out of ten times. But this one time just went on to the next guy who would have heard it on the radio: Watch out for Alonso he's coming up and his driving with a chip on his shoulder. The risk/reward odds were clear so he should have went for it and many other drivers (Hamilton) would have. Sometimes you need to force the issue.

Remember Silvester Stallone in that armtwisting movie were he turns his cap around and takes it to another level. Alonso never turned his cap around in that race. Yesterday also he needed to be that young aggressive Alonso in that Minardi, not that super reliable errorfree calculated genious he grew up to be.

Tonight maybe hopefully necessarily we are going to see a different attitude Alonso. Yeah he needed to manage his points lead up so far in the season and be careful, but from now on he can spanish bullfight his way through like he aint got nothing more to lose.

Alonso once again yesterday, just like last week in Austin was slow and passive in a Qualifying crunch time situation. I sense he does not have that "magic" to elevate his game to another level in big pressure situations. He rather stays considerate, thoughtful, super consistant, mistake free etc. Its the way he won his championships , carefully managing what he has, not beeing aggressive. Its just his mental racing style, the way he approaches it whether its the first race or last race of the season, what you see is what you get, consistant, mistake free driving. I hope someone from Ferrari is going to tell him on the grid: "Dont bring the car home in 5th or 6th place, dont get stuck behind anybody. You either finish on the podium or you crash. Be aggressive tonight! You are free to do so, anything else will get us nowhere"

Do you know what you are talking about? There was no DRS, and Renault was faster than Ferrari in the main straight, so how exactly did you expect Alonso to overtake Petrov? Jump him over? Or crash into him?... maybe you saw a different race, I saw Alonso desperate seeing Petrov get away every time in the main straight because Ferrari had a higher downforce setup than Renault and Abu Dhabi does not offer corners to overtake...

I "sense" some drivers are better in some circuits and worse in others, I sense some drivers have better cars than others too. Take a deep breath and look carefully an onboard lap with Alonso and learn what wrestling means. Then look at any Red Bull. Alonso couldn't have been any better than 5th yesterday and he has been ahead of his team mate and ahead of his car possibilities 95% of the time, so to say he doesn't look interested or passive is a very very cheap comment. As well "he is not a good overtaker"... Had not it been for his overtaking skills he wouldn't have been on the podium so many times and gained so many positions at race starts so many times.

Sometimes I think people are watching another series when I read these sort comments, very slight knowledge of F1.

Edited by Nitropower, 25 November 2012 - 11:55.

[Jejking]

I'm starting to think the same. The pressure popped back in his face when he landed behinded Schumacher, both on outlaps, and he immediately went into whiney-mode. That was a bit telling for me actually, together with the qualifying behind his teammate stories from this and last weekend.

About Abu Dhabi 10, he was really unlucky there with the Ferrari strategy to only respond to Webber because they thought the softer tyre did go to bust at that moment. It didn't. The Renault engine was new unlike his old unit so he missed a bit top speed and it's really hard to dive-bomb. He tried and had to back out of it because that WOULD have resulted in a crash. Petrov was told to not hold off Alonso at all costs but he was driving for his carreer and although his engine helped him a bit, he did great.

[Frankbullitt]

He has been underperforming in qualifying in these last decisive races

And outscoring him in these last decisive races.

[Vesuvius]

None of the the drivers like Alonso, Vettel,Kimi or Hamilton have problems with pressure...well Hamilton could have small issues as he has sucked in both of his title decider races (2007 and 2008) but I think he is now coping better the pressure as he won the title 2008. Alonso only may lose his temper (badly even and it happends quite a lot) if things don't go to his wishes but he won't do mistakes because of pressure.

Edited by Vesuvius, 25 November 2012 - 12:10.

[Lights]

Am I the only one remembering Alonso almost crashing into Petrov several times trying to brake later than possible, and still not being able to put his car next to the Renault?

This thread is based on someone not understanding F1.

[Jejking]

None of the the drivers like Alonso, Vettel,Kimi or Hamilton have problems with pressure...well Hamilton could have small issues as he has sucked in both of his title decider races (2007 and 2008) but I think he is now coping better the pressure as he won the title 2008. Alonso only may lose his temper badly even if things don't go to his wishes but he won't do mistakes because of pressure.

That's bullshit.

As THE favourite Alonso overcooked it in 2007, Fuji. 6th season.
As THE favourite Vettel wasted tyres plus grid position yesterday. 5th season
As THE man under pressure (not favourite, that was Alonso because of reliability and consistancy) Raikkonen messed up his quali in Brazil 2005. 5th season
As THE favourite Hamilton buckled in 2007 at the start of the Brazilian GP. 2008 was just not good enough. But in 2010 he misjudged it in Monza. 4th season.

Conclusion: they all have their lapses.

[Raifosa]

...
As soon as it looked like it might be all over Alonso should have just kept his foot in and bonzai moved to the inside under breaking. Alonso needed to be a little Nigel Mansel about it. Abit of Montoya. Anyone thinks Montoya would have followed Petrov til the end? Montoya would have dive bombed to the inside in a way that would have gone wrong nine out of ten times. But this one time just went on to the next guy who would have heard it on the radio: Watch out for Alonso he's coming up and his driving with a chip on his shoulder. The risk/reward odds were clear so he should have went for it and many other drivers (Hamilton) would have. Sometimes you need to force the issue.
..

I can't believe I'm doing this (defending Fred) but IIRC Lewis at the same race was also stuck behind the other Renault and couldn't pass Bobby K. and had to wait till the pitstops.

[Jejking]

I can't believe I'm doing this (defending Fred) but IIRC Lewis at the same race was also stuck behind the other Renault and couldn't pass Bobby K. and had to wait till the pitstops.

And that's true too.

[Vesuvius]

That's bullshit.

As THE favourite Alonso overcooked it in 2007, Fuji. 6th season.
As THE favourite Vettel wasted tyres plus grid position yesterday. 5th season
As THE man under pressure (not favourite, that was Alonso because of reliability and consistancy) Raikkonen messed up his quali in Brazil 2005. 5th season
As THE favourite Hamilton buckled in 2007 at the start of the Brazilian GP. 2008 was just not good enough. But in 2010 he misjudged it in Monza. 4th season.

Conclusion: they all have their lapses.

Yes, but not all becæuse of pressure...they have done many mistakes in other races too you know.

[Atreiu]

I think hes like Schumacher, sometimes fantastic, sometimes not.
Imola 2005 was incredible, China 2006 wasnt. The he nailed it at China 2007, having self destructed a race before.

[dreamerBiH]

Well he tried once and he almost finished off track. It's not like he didn't even try. They simply didn't have enough speed


edit: I am talking about Abu Dhabi 10 and this fight with Petrov.

Edited by dreamerBiH, 25 November 2012 - 12:27.

[baggio10]

It is certainly alarming that as soon as Vettel started to put pressure on him, he suddenly becomes vulenrable to his teammate who was nowhere near him before that. India and Austin Massa was much faster (unsually) than Alonso.

[yr]

And outscoring him in these last decisive races.

Erm, Massa outqualifing Fernando and then gets fabricated 5 slots penalty, which gives Alonso a better gridslot and clean side, and Felipe still finished next to Alonso and that is "Alonso outscoring Massa" in your books? Well, you are in for a treat today, as I have a strong belief that Alonso is yet again going to "outscore" Massa.

[Disgrace]

Am I the only one remembering Alonso almost crashing into Petrov several times trying to brake later than possible, and still not being able to put his car next to the Renault?

This thread is based on someone not understanding F1.

Ferrari made a huge strategic cock-up which put Alonso behind Petrov, and if anyone recalls, the Renaults were among the top in the speed traps during that weekend. Overtaking at Abu Dhabi is impossible under normal circumstances. Yet another appalling thread, it's been a record week.

Neither races were really high pressure situations.

You don't think securing his first championship was a high pressure situation? Don't you remember this?

Edited by Disgrace, 25 November 2012 - 14:41.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Alonso once again yesterday, just like last week in Austin was slow and passive in a Qualifying crunch time situation.

Are you kidding? He was wringing everything out of that car but still managing not to crash. He was driving 10/10. The car just wasn't there.

I hope someone from Ferrari is going to tell him on the grid: "Dont bring the car home in 5th or 6th place, dont get stuck behind anybody. You either finish on the podium or you crash. Be aggressive tonight! You are free to do so, anything else will get us nowhere"

I do agree with this. In NASCAR (I know, I know, just bear with me) they have a saying for when you're going for broke, "It's checkers or wreckers." Another time, an owner once said to a driver, "come back with either the steering wheel or the checkered flag, nothing else is acceptable."

This is a cool approach and I'm sure Alonso understands. However in most cases it's not necessary to crash to prove that one tried one's hardest to win.

[2ms]

Remember Silvester Stallone in that armtwisting movie were he turns his cap around and takes it to another level. Alonso never turned his cap around in that race. Yesterday also he needed to be that young aggressive Alonso in that Minardi, not that super reliable errorfree calculated genious he grew up to be.

I guess I disagree with the entire premise of this post. Fernando is not errorfree in a way like Vettel or Raikkonen are. His biggest problem seems to be emotional volatility. For example, even though this has been his calmest year, he still had several mistakes like getting flustered and chopping across track cutting his tire on wing. With Vettel losing over 70 points to equipment failures in 2010, if Alonso had, for example, just been a little more calm at Monaco and not crashed at worst possible time in qualifying, then he would have won that championship. I also think he could have beaten Hamilton in 2007 if he had been a little more composed. Instead, he has not won anything in 6 years now. He is better than that.

[yr]

Are you kidding? He was wringing everything out of that car but still managing not to crash. He was driving 10/10. The car just wasn't there.

You may not have noticed it, but the Ferrari #2 was something like 0.26 faster than him, so he hardly drove 10/10.

[OfficeLinebacker]

You may not have noticed it, but the Ferrari #2 was something like 0.26 faster than him, so he hardly drove 10/10.

That's because there is absolutely no difference between cars, right? The setups are identical, the tyres are at identical points in their wear cycles, and the dials on the steering wheel are at the exact same place.

[KnucklesAgain]

Why?

It is a very relative and interesting subject.

Because the thread titled "how can an energy drink design a better car" already was proof that the OP has poor understanding of the sport, and he cemented this in the OP of the current thread by arguing Alonso should have behaved differently on the basis of a Silvester Stallone movie.

I guess I disagree with the entire premise of this post. Fernando is not errorfree in a way like Vettel or Raikkonen are. His biggest problem seems to be emotional volatility. For example, even though this has been his calmest year, he still had several mistakes like getting flustered and chopping across track cutting his tire on wing. With Vettel losing over 70 points to equipment failures in 2010, if Alonso had, for example, just been a little more calm at Monaco and not crashed at worst possible time in qualifying, then he would have won that championship. I also think he could have beaten Hamilton in 2007 if he had been a little more composed. Instead, he has not won anything in 6 years now. He is better than that.

Error free like Vettel who, for example, drove into both Webber and Button in 2010? Come on. Can't we just be reasonable and say that all the top guys are awesome, but they are human and therefore not error-free? Some of the time one of them strings a great series together, but it always is sure that it will end?

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 25 November 2012 - 15:55.

[Kucki]

Well, another questionable performance I must say Even his teammate had to let him pass, and he prefered to drive home a save second place, then to risk a DNF and try to attack Button for the Championship.

[Topsu]

There was nothing wrong with Alonso's pace. Massa was maybe a little faster, but it all came down to Hulk and Hamilton retiring anyway. With pure pace the Ferrari was not the car to win a championship, and this last race proves it.

[choyothe]

Alonso has never been amongst the best in these situations, this was no different.

[DutchCruijff]

Off the track x2, caught out by Kamui and heavily relied upon Massa. As with Vettel, the two of them were doing their best to lose the title.

[Frankbullitt]

He proved a lot of people wrong today, strong drive and a stronger season, epic.

[jk]

Alonso got the chaotic race he needed but did not have enough to pressure Button. Nothing wrong with his performance today.

[KnucklesAgain]

LOL at the people trying to spin this drive into a bad thing. Goodbye

[HPT]

I didn't read the whole thread so apologies if this has been said. The only error in Abu Dhabi 2012 was Ferrari's strategy. Alonso couldn't overtake Petrov in the same way Hamilton couldn't overtake Kubica. Had he tried a banzai move and crash out, whatever little chance that he had would have been completely gone. He was 7th but the 2 guys in front who pitted on the first lap during the SC could have their tires go off. The last thing he needed at that point was to make a boneheaded move.

[KnucklesAgain]

I didn't read the whole thread so apologies if this has been said. The only error in Abu Dhabi 2012 was Ferrari's strategy. Alonso couldn't overtake Petrov in the same way Hamilton couldn't overtake Kubica. Had he tried a banzai move and crash out, whatever little chance that he had would have been completely gone. He was 7th but the 2 guys in front who pitted on the first lap during the SC could have their tires go off. The last thing he needed at that point was to make a boneheaded move.

Don't bother

[Mr.Wayne]

I don't think much can be said about this race.
But the last quarter of the season he has look quite... "average", specially when you consider that more often than not, Massa has been matching the pace, and even holding station and moving away for the sake of Fernando.
I am not sure if it was pressure, if he lost motivation after his huge lead was whipped away, or if he simply was way too tired after the effort of the first 15 races or so. But certainly, he was a different driver in the closing stages.

[revlec]

Off the track x2, caught out by Kamui and heavily relied upon Massa. As with Vettel, the two of them were doing their best to lose the title.

To be honest, I have not been impressed by VET(his mistake in his crash with SEN.. could have ended badly) or ALO.
MAS was mega today.. wow!
WEB is useless and need to retire..

[revlec]

Off the track x2, caught out by Kamui and heavily relied upon Massa. As with Vettel, the two of them were doing their best to lose the title.

To be honest, I have not been impressed by VET(his mistake in his crash with SEN.. could have ended badly) or ALO.
MAS was mega today(he tricked WEB for ALO to double overtake them).. wow!!!
WEB is useless and need to retire..

Edited by revlec, 25 November 2012 - 19:32.

[jj2728]

Some of the comments here are laughable at best. Alonso drove his ass off all year in a shitbox of a car. To be able challenge for the driver's crown up until the few remaining laps in the final race of the season shows what he's capable of. Kudos to him for never giving up.

[Kucki]

I don't think much can be said about this race.
But the last quarter of the season he has look quite... "average", specially when you consider that more often than not, Massa has been matching the pace, and even holding station and moving away for the sake of Fernando.
I am not sure if it was pressure, if he lost motivation after his huge lead was whipped away, or if he simply was way too tired after the effort of the first 15 races or so. But certainly, he was a different driver in the closing stages.

What you saw was the usual Alonso in a pressure situation. Concentrating on what he does best. Consistant driving, lap times like clock work behind Button. Not setting a foot wrong, but not risking anything either.

Its the same attitude that got him stuck behind Petrov in Abu Dhabi for lap after lap after lap, lose to Massa this Qualifying and last Qualifying. He referred back to beeing consistant, while Massa could drive freely and attack.

Some will say it must have been impossible for Alonso to close the gap on Button. And they might be even right, and Alonso might have thought that also, and that held him back. There was no way Alonso would have fly off the road trying to catch Button. Its not his style. He rather finishes "solid".

Edited by Kucki, 25 November 2012 - 20:11.

[Kucki]

I didn't read the whole thread so apologies if this has been said. The only error in Abu Dhabi 2012 was Ferrari's strategy. Alonso couldn't overtake Petrov in the same way Hamilton couldn't overtake Kubica. Had he tried a banzai move and crash out, whatever little chance that he had would have been completely gone. He was 7th but the 2 guys in front who pitted on the first lap during the SC could have their tires go off. The last thing he needed at that point was to make a boneheaded move.

Surely the wrong strategy played the major part in putting him in the situation he was in. But not even attempting to make a move is the unexcusable drive. If he would have tried to slide inside, Petrov would have given him room (he was mirror driving on every straight), trying and failing would have been understandable, but not even trying... Hamilton and Kubica were in a completely different situation then Alonso Championship contender in the final race vs Petrov trying to not be kicked out of F1 for foolish mistakes. Hamilton would have just made a risky move on Petrov if he were in a Championship fight, there is no way he would have followed him just on and on. Different drivers have different attitudes.

[ASFA2011]

What you saw was the usual Alonso in a pressure situation. Concentrating on what he does best. Consistant driving, lap times like clock work behind Button. Not setting a foot wrong, but not risking anything either.

Its the same attitude that got him stuck behind Petrov in Abu Dhabi for lap after lap after lap, lose to Massa this Qualifying and last Qualifying. He referred back to beeing consistant, while Massa could drive freely and attack.

Some will say it must have been impossible for Alonso to close the gap on Button. And they might be even right, and Alonso might have thought that also, and that held him back. There was no way Alonso would have fly off the road trying to catch Button. Its not his style. He rather finishes "solid".

Do you realize that he was 20 secs behind Button ? He would have to been massively quicker than him to catch in in 10 laps , at least 2 secs per lap quicker , so why risk that ? It is absurd the things you are saying