830 replies to this topic

[f1fastestlap]

Video also clearly shows Toro Rosso did pull aside and slow down to let Vettel trough....so it was not illegal overtake in my mind because of that.

Still an overtake. It's irrelevant if the other guy let you or not...

[Vesuvius]

Still an overtake. It's irrelevant if the other guy let you or not...

No it's not...if other driver makes a mistake runs out of the track or his car breaks down, you don't have to await behind him.

Edited by Vesuvius, 28 November 2012 - 09:01.

[Niceone]

Still an overtake. It's irrelevant if the other guy let you or not...

Actually no. You can overtake under yellows if someone a) Drives off circuit b) Slows down a lot (possibly for technical problem etc.)

[OoxLox]

Still an overtake. It's irrelevant if the other guy let you or not...

As McLaren pit wall failed to realise in Melbourne 2009 ;)

Nothing will happen about this now except hopefully the FIA taking note. They've got GPS on every car so I don't know why they can't just automatically flag up these things on the steering wheel and in the stewards' room when they happen, to save all this 'trial by FOM replays' crap.

[artista]

"Another"?

Some people just can't give up. And the spanish press confirms its reputation.

Don't put us all in the same bag, please. Some of us can still use our brains, even if it's just now and then


----------------------------
On the topic: Engel did a very good job yesterday in the other thread, bringin up the map that shows where the marshals posts and lights are placed in Interlagos:
http://184.106.145.7...012-circuit.jpg

Yellow dot is a lights panel, green dot is a marshal post without light panel.
If you look, where Vettel passes, on the straight after turn 3, there is a green dot without yellow dot. In short, whatever the previous flashing light is doing means nothing, the important thing is what is the guy doing in the marshal post on the left.
The on-board video is way to blur to really see what the marshal is doing, but in the previous lap, he was already waiving a GREEN flag.

PS. El Mundo? Really? Couldn't have they picked a less reliable journal?

[LiJu914]

LMAO yeah not photoshoped I agree.

It was done in MS Paint instead lol. How can you not freaking see the black box.

BBC Onboard Highlights show exactäy the same.

Nothing was manipulated.
...still would be interesting to know whether the marshal is waving a green flag on lap 4 or not.

Edited by LiJu914, 28 November 2012 - 09:04.

[EvanRainer]

Well, there is genuinely no point in reopening the discussion and Bruno showed admirable sportsmanship in writing the crash off as a racing incident but, just to correct a blatant error in your post, Bruno was not 'driving up the inside' he was bang on the racing line as the clip with McNish clearly identified. Vettel cut across recklessly, probably because he was frustrated with a poor start, and took out Senna. Far from there being 'no way for Vettel to know Senna was there' the most probable reality is that he simply didn't look properly.

On different weekends with different drivers and different stewards penalties have been given for such rashness but not on this occasion.

As I said though, its not worth reopening the discussion, Vettel is a worthy champion over the season and Bruno has sportingly accepted Vettel's behaviour as a no more than normal for a racing incident.

Neither Senna nor Vettel did anything "reckless".

It's freaking obvious that Vettel didn't and COULDN'T see Senna due to DiResta and poor overall visibility and oh, the fact that he was freaking many cars behind him and F1 cars have tiny mirrors. Senna didn't do anything wrong either, Vettel was also obscured for him until he started turning in.

People only freaking look at Senna's onboard and think Vettel just turn in on him. Vettel did his job and went carefully and made sure he had cleared DiResta. How many cars behind him THAT HE COULDN'T SEE can he possibly be expected to account for.

It was a freak racing incident, there doesn't have to be someone to blame. And I couldn't care less what McNish says, though I'll admit he sure knows all about running into other cars.

[Baddoer]

Actually no. You can overtake under yellows if someone a) Drives off circuit b) Slows down a lot (possibly for technical problem etc.)

Vergne clearly stayed on the circuit and I doubt he had a technical problem.

[krea]

Well, there is genuinely no point in reopening the discussion and Bruno showed admirable sportsmanship in writing the crash off as a racing incident but, just to correct a blatant error in your post, Bruno was not 'driving up the inside' he was bang on the racing line as the clip with McNish clearly identified. Vettel cut across recklessly, probably because he was frustrated with a poor start, and took out Senna. Far from there being 'no way for Vettel to know Senna was there' the most probable reality is that he simply didn't look properly.

I didn't see any difference between Vettel and the cars ahead of him, they all took the same racing line



Senna was obviously not on the normal racing line because he tried to overtake Hülkenberg.

[Vesuvius]

Thanks Artista, that image shows clearly that Vettel passed of the area of Green flag, not yellow!

[Gilles4Ever]

Posts deleted - if you cannot discuss the topic do not post!

[Gilles4Ever]

This thread is for discussing the pass of Kobayashi, not the Senna incident.

[apoka]

Wasn't it already discussed that the waved green flags overrule the lightboards? (In addition, as others mentioned you could make a point that the TR was quite slow if you look at the gap. When staying behind is more dangerous than overtaking, because cars slow down, you can overtake under yellows.)

http://www.gophoto.i...if#.ULXXCneoI-q

Edit: Posts from the two threads should probably be merged.

Edited by apoka, 28 November 2012 - 09:21.

[ensign14]

The result is official now, surely? Too late to put in a protest.

[SpaMaster]

Don't put us all in the same bag, please. Some of us can still use our brains, even if it's just now and then


----------------------------
On the topic: Engel did a very good job yesterday in the other thread, bringin up the map that shows where the marshals posts and lights are placed in Interlagos:
http://184.106.145.7...012-circuit.jpg

Yellow dot is a lights panel, green dot is a marshal post without light panel.
If you look, where Vettel passes, on the straight after turn 3, there is a green dot without yellow dot. In short, whatever the previous flashing light is doing means nothing, the important thing is what is the guy doing in the marshal post on the left.
The on-board video is way to blur to really see what the marshal is doing, but in the previous lap, he was already waiving a GREEN flag.

PS. El Mundo? Really? Couldn't have they picked a less reliable journal?

Thank you. If the marshal was showing green flag in that post in the previous lap, that means yellow flag section was behind him, and Vettel had in fact overtaken in green zone. Anyway, I can't believe people grasping on to straws still.

[Crossmax]

Green physical flag means legal pass. Nothing too see, Seb will remain champion.

[amarelo]

I dont care who wins the championship but this is very easy for Red Bull to defend, the Toro Rosso clearly took the foot off the gas and in those conditions the guy behind can assume there is a problem and pass, it doesnt matter if it the Toro Rosso had a problem or not, the action of losing speed compared to all the other guys infront is what matters. Ferrari can try whatever, it wont matter.

[Zava]

Don't put us all in the same bag, please. Some of us can still use our brains, even if it's just now and then


----------------------------
On the topic: Engel did a very good job yesterday in the other thread, bringin up the map that shows where the marshals posts and lights are placed in Interlagos:
http://184.106.145.7...012-circuit.jpg

Yellow dot is a lights panel, green dot is a marshal post without light panel.
If you look, where Vettel passes, on the straight after turn 3, there is a green dot without yellow dot. In short, whatever the previous flashing light is doing means nothing, the important thing is what is the guy doing in the marshal post on the left.
The on-board video is way to blur to really see what the marshal is doing, but in the previous lap, he was already waiving a GREEN flag.

PS. El Mundo? Really? Couldn't have they picked a less reliable journal?

also I'd like to mention that when it was still yellow, the yellow flag at the 'flag only' marshal is pretty distinctive even on the onboard:

(sorry, more visible in motion but you can see a yellow blur)
now this is something we've not seen on the lap4 onboard of Vettel, but we saw some movement - my verdict: the green flag is 'merging' with the greenish looking marshal post on the lap 4 onboard.

edit: messed up pic on the first attempt

Edited by Zava, 28 November 2012 - 09:27.

[prty]

As it has been said, on lap 3 clearly the marshall switches yellow for green.
Engel is assuming it stayed like this on lap 4, but then on lap 3 at that point there was a green light at the right, and on lap 4 the same light was yellow.
So the assumption is not strong enough, as the broken car could have been towed further down the track, for example.
Then it all comes down to that blurry gif of the marshall post from Vettel's onboard. While it doesn't look like a yellow flag, I don't think it's clear enough to say it wasn't, it's not even conclusive to say that something was being waved.

Also, as has been said, this video ( http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#! ) is not photoshopped, if the display looks covered on the left it's because Vettel pressed kers at that time, so the speed indicator switched to show the kers percentage, using one less digit, and adding a whole new level of embarrassment to posts like these:

LMAO yeah not photoshoped I agree.

It was done in MS Paint instead lol. How can you not freaking see the black box.

Edited by prty, 28 November 2012 - 09:22.

[F1ultimate]

IMO Ferrari have already accepted defeat. Their car wasn't up for the job this year. I doubt they would want to go through the legal process or contesting Vettel's title and possibly end up losing again.

[f1fastestlap]

No it's not...if other driver makes a mistake runs out of the track or his car breaks down, you don't have to await behind him.

That's not what happened so my answer stands correct...

[Diablobb81]

And since the important question is what flag was waved at the marshall post it's wrong to say that Vettel "certainly" passed under yellow and the videos prove nothing.

So, get some facts and then accuse. The fact that the spanish press goes with the story (which is alos picked up internationally) is idiotic.

[josepatches]

The marshall was there all the race. He had a yellow flag the previous lap and at lap 56. You can see the flag pretty clear. When the straight is under yellow flags he was waving the yellow flag.





When Vettel overtakes Vergne his flag is not yellow for sure like the pic below. And it looks green like we know he had the previous lap.







At the end there was a marshall so if Vettel did something illegal he had been punished

[EvanRainer]

As it has been said, on lap 3 clearly the marshall switches yellow for green.
Engel is assuming it stayed like this on lap 4, but then on lap 3 at that point there was a green light at the right, and on lap 4 the same light was yellow.
So the assumption is not strong enough, as the broken car could have been towed further down the track, for example.
Then it all comes down to that blurry gif of the marshall post from Vettel's onboard. While it doesn't look like a yellow flag, I don't think it's clear enough to say it wasn't, it's not even conclusive to say that something was being waved.

Also, as has been said, this video ( http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#! ) is not photoshopped, if the display looks covered on the left it's because Vettel pressed kers at that time, so the speed indicator switched to show the kers percentage, using one less digit, and adding a whole new level of embarrassment to posts like these:

I may be wrong there and I have no problem admitting it, unlike you who are still clinging on to your tin foil hat.

[LiJu914]

BBC-shot of lap 2:



We can definitely see yellow here, despite the bad quality. So imho there are only three possible options for lap 4:
- the marshal didn´t wave anything.
- the marshal waved green.
- the marshal waved blue in case a car exited the pits(?)

I´m just downloading the vid, to go frame by frame on vettels onboard. I´ll keep you informed, whether something can be seen or not.

Ps. What a stupid way to waste your time...

[Ham's Cranes Ltd]

Video also clearly shows Toro Rosso did pull aside and slow down to let Vettel trough....so it was not illegal overtake in my mind because of that.

I can't imagine why a racedriver will let another one pass him...

[D.M.N.]

http://www.f1fanatic...m=15#post-81011

Interesting comment from a flag marshal who says the pass was 100% legal.

[Oho]

That looked fairly damning. What will happen now?

Nothing I don't think sporting regulations have provisions for delayed penalties, more to the contrary, for infringements on sporting regulations during the race unless the said infringement takes place near the end of the race.

[prty]

I may be wrong there and I have no problem admitting it, unlike you who are still clinging on to your tin foil hat.

Re-read my post again then

[1Devil1]

Another thread. His pass was legal as shown in the other thread. Can't the Alonso fans get over it

[LiJu914]

... here we go.
Lap4:
Pic1:



Pic2:


Pic3:



That´s a flag imho...and it´s not yellow.

Edited by LiJu914, 28 November 2012 - 09:59.

[ivand911]

They made V3ttel t-shirt already, I doubt that anyone can complain or appeal after that.

[Rinehart]

Seriously guys, sport is an imperfect science, some penalties are given some are not.
We can go through history and pretty much come up with a new champion of every championship in every sport ever, if we so desired. It would never end.

[asmodeo]

When Vettel overtakes Vergne his flag is not yellow for sure like the pic below. And it looks green like we know he had the previous lap.



At the end there was a marshall so if Vettel did something illegal he had been punished

There is Yellow ligths (used when Yellow flags is) on Vettel's cockpit.

[Crossmax]

There is Yellow ligths (used when Yellow flags is) on Vettel's cockpit.

But there is a green flag by the side of the track. Flag > lights

Edited by Crossmax, 28 November 2012 - 10:03.

[Infinityl]

BBC Onboard Highlights show exactäy the same.

Nothing was manipulated.
...still would be interesting to know whether the marshal is waving a green flag on lap 4 or not.

In lap 3, when the marshall change from yellow to green flag before Vettel passed, we can see how leds in Vettels car turn off just when he pass the marshall, so we can imagine that leds are working properly.
In lap 4, there is no evidence of green flag in that point, and the led in Vettel's car is showing yellow flag.

I have no doubt, the overtake was under yellow flag.

Video

[1Devil1]

There is Yellow ligths (used when Yellow flags is) on Vettel's cockpit.

Did you bother to read the thread?!. It it his cockpit signal but If a marshall wave a green flag outside on the track he is allowed to overtake. flags over track signal. The discussion right now is : Was there a green flag? Apparently it was. This thread showed me that a lot of people just read the title and post what they want.

[Diablobb81]

There is Yellow ligths (used when Yellow flags is) on Vettel's cockpit.

There is marshal post after the lights. The dash display is connected to the lights.

It's safe to assume that flags take precedence over lights (since not all marshal posts have lights).

So : if the marshal waved a green flag than the pass is legal (regardless of what the dash says since it was out of sync with the track conditions).

In lap 3, when the marshall change from yellow to green flag before Vettel passed, we can see how leds in Vettels car turn off just when he pass the marshall, so we can imagine that leds are working properly.
In lap 4, there is no evidence of green flag in that point, and the led in Vettel's car is showing yellow flag.

I have no doubt, the overtake was under yellow flag.

Video

Again, this is irrelevant. What matters is what were the track conditions at the marshal post without the lights.

Edited by Diablobb81, 28 November 2012 - 10:07.

[Realyn]

I can't imagine why a racedriver will let another one pass him...

Massa do you copy? Alonso is faster and you have to save fuel, do you understand%

[LiJu914]

Dunno whether that will be discussed in this thread from now on, or in both threads...
Just in case:

Lap2 marshal waving yellow:



Lap4 Marshal waving [insert favourite colour]:

[1Devil1]

In lap 3, when the marshall change from yellow to green flag before Vettel passed, we can see how leds in Vettels car turn off just when he pass the marshall, so we can imagine that leds are working properly.
In lap 4, there is no evidence of green flag in that point, and the led in Vettel's car is showing yellow flag.

I have no doubt, the overtake was under yellow flag.

Video

tell me how light are connected to a waving flag

[BigBadBless]

Seriously guys, sport is an imperfect science, some penalties are given some are not.
We can go through history and pretty much come up with a new champion of every championship in every sport ever, if we so desired. It would never end.

Irrelevant to the thread, the thread is discussing this championship and whether this penalty should be given or not. Personally, I don't think it should, but your pseudo-philosophical post adds nothing at all to the conversation, you're just stating the obvious.

[Infinityl]

tell me how light are connected to a waving flag

I dont know, tell to FIA, but you can see in pics how in lap 3 the marshall change to green flag seconds before Vettel pass and the lights turn off in Vettel's car, so it must be connected.
In lap 4 lights still yellow.

[LiJu914]

In lap 3, when the marshall change from yellow to green flag before Vettel passed, we can see how leds in Vettels car turn off just when he pass the marshall, so we can imagine that leds are working properly.
In lap 4, there is no evidence of green flag in that point, and the led in Vettel's car is showing yellow flag.

I have no doubt, the overtake was under yellow flag.

Vettel dashboard is not connected to a Marshal with a normal flag (it just a wooden stick, with some textile attached to it ;) ).

On lap 3 the T3-light showed green, on lap4 it showed yellow. So it´s normal that his dashboard was different between lap 3 and 4.

But the question remains, whether the marshal, slightly behind the T3 light, waved green on lap 4 or not (even if he did that by mistake, VET would be excused as he can´t be punished, just because he followed a marshal´s instruction no matter if this instruction is right or wrong).

I´ve posted the pics above. Everyone can figure it out for their own.

Edited by LiJu914, 28 November 2012 - 10:19.

[Infinityl]

There is marshal post after the lights. The dash display is connected to the lights.

It's safe to assume that flags take precedence over lights (since not all marshal posts have lights).

So : if the marshal waved a green flag than the pass is legal (regardless of what the dash says since it was out of sync with the track conditions).



Again, this is irrelevant. What matters is what were the track conditions at the marshal post without the lights.

This is not irrelevant because this show how in Lap 3 the green flag that the marshall show works properly in vettel's car, even when Vettel's pass just for here only a second after the change.

Thats mean that the marshall change again to yellow flag between lap 3 and lap 4.

[Diablobb81]

This is not irrelevant because this show how in Lap 3 the green flag that the marshall show works properly in vettel's car, even when Vettel's pass just for here only a second after the change.

Thats mean that the marshall change again to yellow flag between lap 3 and lap 4.

Do you understand that we are talking about two different marshal posts? One with the lights and one further ahead without lights?

Here, courtesy of all the guys that bothered earlier to explain : http://184.106.145.7...012-circuit.jpg

Edited by Diablobb81, 28 November 2012 - 10:20.

[f1fastestlap]

Another view on the subject saying 2 were legal and a third was illegal...

[Infinityl]

Vettel dahsboard is not connected to a Marshal with a normal flag (it just a wooden stick, with some textile attached to it ;) ).

On lap 3 the T3-light showed green, on lap4 it showed yellow. So it´s normal that his dashboard was different between lap 3 and 4.

But the question remains, whether the marshal, slightly behind the T3 light, waved green on lap 4 or not (even if he did that by mistake, VET would be excused as he can´t be punished, just because he followed a marshal´s instruction no matter if this instruction is right or wrong).

I´ve posted the pics above. Everyone can figure it out for their own.

Ok, so why in lap 3 led in Vettel's car turn off just when he passed that marshall in the lap that we have an evidence of green flag? not connected ? perhaps a secret button or a small pannel in that marshall stand?

[LiJu914]

Ok, so why in lap 3 led in Vettel's car turn off just when he passed that marshall in the lap that we have an evidence of green flag? not connected ? perhaps a secret button or a small pannel in that marshall stand?

Because the light on the right hand side of the exit of T3 showed green. How often do i have to tell you that?


The marshal´s stand however is slightly behind that light and on the other side of the track.

[1Devil1]

Another view on the subject saying 2 were legal and a third was illegal...

Please read the other thread. It's not another view, the discussion is all about the third move and users here already provided us evidence that a marshall waved a green flag before Vettel made his move