830 replies to this topic

[anachronox]

[SonicAngel]

I have to admit I missed that but these videos do prove it was under a yellow flag beyond the shadow of a doubt...

[skywing]

I have to admit I missed that but these videos do prove it was under a yellow flag beyond the shadow of a doubt...

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=6056457

[Buttoneer]

Posts have been deleted.

This thread is for people to discuss and assess the overtaking by Vettel and whether it was under yellow , green or whatever colour flag or light conditions.

It is emphatically NOT to discuss other posters, denigrate groups of people, nations or newspapers.

Please stick to the topic. If the topic is done, then please do not feel compelled to post.

[Collective]

I have to admit I missed that but these videos do prove it was under a yellow flag beyond the shadow of a doubt...

They don't.

http://blog.axisofov...ase-closed.html

[Mr.Wayne]

The question is the overtake was legal.

There is a green flag clearly waving on the street on the gif that was posted earlier on the thread...

Edited by Mr.Wayne, 28 November 2012 - 17:50.

[SonicAngel]

They don't.

http://blog.axisofov...ase-closed.html

I don't understand how you can say that when he overtakes with the yellow lights on his dash clearly on...

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=LFER0esusF0

This video convinced me thoroughly. Do I believe this was a dangerous OT? No. It was on the straight with no danger to either side BUT, rules are rules and the yellow lights on his dash are clearly on when he pulls along side the Toro Rosso and that's it. It's over right then and there.

I recommend you all take the time to watch this vid in it's entirety and listen to what the man says. The rules are obviously not clear enough to a lot of people.

Edited by SonicAngel, 28 November 2012 - 17:53.

[Collective]

I don't understand how you can say that when he overtakes with the yellow lights on his dash clearly on...

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=LFER0esusF0

This video convinced me thoroughly. Do I believe this was a dangerous OT? No. It was on the straight with no danger to either side BUT, rules are rules and the yellow lights on his dash are clearly on when he pulls along side the Toro Rosso and that's it. It's over right then and there.

Exactly, rules are rules, and the rules only refer to FLAGS, not to the dashboard on the wheel.

[Diablobb81]

Anyway any protest by Ferrari seems inadmissible. There is no new information here.

[Mr.Wayne]

I don't know who brought this thing up, but it is unbelievable the arrogance of some, to pretend that they, with incomplete footage and with the glasses of a fan, can discern better what is happening rather than the teams (who invested MILLIONS of dollars in the race, and were following each driver VERY CLOSE) about what happened at the race. I am sure Ferrari had at least a couple of people tracking Vettel at every stage of the race, and anything he did, was immediately correlated with the track status to see if it was legal or not.

Not to mention, though, that whoever brought this silly argument up should have noticed the green flags on the straight before the manouvre...

[sniper80]

Vettel did this overtake under yellow and should have been given a penalty as such.
For that reason, he is not the true 2012 F1 champion. It's not because Toro Rosso is RB's 2nd team that this should be covered.
It is not allowed, dangerous and should be taken care of as such.

[dau]

I don't understand how you can say that when he overtakes with the yellow lights on his dash clearly on...

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=LFER0esusF0

This video convinced me thoroughly. Do I believe this was a dangerous OT? No. It was on the straight with no danger to either side BUT, rules are rules and the yellow lights on his dash are clearly on when he pulls along side the Toro Rosso and that's it. It's over right then and there.

I recommend you all take the time to watch this vid in it's entirety and listen to what the man says. The rules are obviously not clear enough to a lot of people.

I recommend you reading through this thread in its entirety. Or just take a look at the link Collective provided.

Edited by dau, 28 November 2012 - 18:20.

[Mr.Wayne]

Vettel did this overtake under yellow and should have been given a penalty as such.
For that reason, he is not the true 2012 F1 champion. It's not because Toro Rosso is RB's 2nd team that this should be covered.
It is not allowed, dangerous and should be taken care of as such.

*sigh*
Go and watch the clip again, where you can clearly see the marshall on the left waving a green flag...

[PedroR]

a home video from the stands would be final...

[Der Pate]

Vettel did this overtake under yellow and should have been given a penalty as such.

Congratulations! You already posted the same sh.... ten times...

[Crossmax]

I dug up this video. Although it doesn't show the marshal post, it shows that the cars are well clear of the incident for which the yellow flags are waiving. And since the marshal post is after turn 3, there is no reason for him to show anything other than a green flag.

Edited by Crossmax, 28 November 2012 - 19:25.

[tomisumi]

soooo, there was flashing yellow light (what means no overtaking) and few metres later green flag?

[Mr.Wayne]

soooo, there was flashing yellow light (what means no overtaking) and few metres later green flag?

Yes.
That is all there is to this story...

[coos]

soooo, there was flashing yellow light (what means no overtaking) and few metres later green flag?

Yes. Explained here:

Ok, before I start, I’m a Flag Marshal here in NZ.
@keithcollantine is 100% spot on with his first post.

The way that the Floppy Marker system works, is that say you have a sector on a straight. Flag Point 1, and Flag Point 2. Now, approximately half way between these points will be a Floppy Marker (It changes depending on the location of the flag points and Line of Sight etc.) If there is an incident between FP1 and FP2 that demands a Yellow Flag from FP1 and it is BEFORE the Floppy Marker, then the cars may overtake from the Floppy Marker onwards provided there is a Green Flag at FP2. If the Incident for the Yellow Flag is AFTER the Floppy Marker, then the cars may not overtake until the pass FP2.

Given that not only Vettel passes Toro Rosso AFTER the Floppy Marker between FP4 and FP5, I would call that pass 100% legal. You could also call into question the validity of the Yellow Flag at FP4, but that’s down to the lights operator down at FP4 and they may have been told to put the Yellow light on by Race Control or someone else.

http://www.f1fanatic...m=15#post-81011

Edited by coos, 28 November 2012 - 19:41.

[PedroR]

Yes.
That is all there is to this story...

"...Eppur si muove"

[autosportfan]

its Moo!


http://www.youtube.c...btPBh3NXs#t=28s

[DrivenF1]

Vettel would have won the championship had he received two drive throughs given the end positions. I'm not a Vettel fan but this incident clearly wasn't important to the championship.

1 3 Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 71 1:45:22.656 2 25
2 5 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 71 +2.7 secs 7 18
3 6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 71 +3.6 secs 5 15
4 2 Mark Webber Red Bull Racing-Renault 71 +4.9 secs 3 12
5 12 Nico Hulkenberg Force India-Mercedes 71 +5.7 secs 6 10
6 1 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing-Renault 71 +9.4 secs 4 8
7 7 Michael Schumacher Mercedes 71 +11.9 secs 13 6
8 17 Jean-Eric Vergne STR-Ferrari 71 +28.6 secs 17 4
9 14 Kamui Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 71 +31.2 secs 14 2
10 9 Kimi Räikkönen Lotus-Renault 70 +1 Lap 8 1

Had Vettel fallen to ninth, Webber would have been told to retire/come down the points. 8th was good enough for the championship.

[tomisumi]

Thanks Finally end of this story...Vettel is true champion

[Fontainebleau]

*sigh*
Go and watch the clip again, where you can clearly see the marshall on the left waving a green flag...

Genuine question: Could you (or anyone else) please point to me at what point in this video I can see that marshall? http://www.youtube.c...p;v=LFER0esusF0

Edit: or provide the link to the relevant video, I may simply have the wrong one!

Edited by Fontainebleau, 28 November 2012 - 19:58.

[Diablobb81]

11:50

[stillOrange]

You didn't really look, did you?

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=6056448

Or here for gif

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=6056457

Edited by stillOrange, 28 November 2012 - 20:05.

[Mr.Wayne]

Genuine question: Could you (or anyone else) please point to me at what point in this video I can see that marshall? http://www.youtube.c...p;v=LFER0esusF0

Edit: or provide the link to the relevant video, I may simply have the wrong one!

Post #364 on the thread (just the page before).

As Diablo said, at 11.50, on the left of the video.

Here is the gif of that part in super slow mo so you cannot miss it.

[TheF1BOB]

LOL like I said on YouTube, the marshal saved Vettel's butt. Saying that, I'm happy this is finally resolved.

Bring on 2013.

[HappyPhantom]

LOL like I said on YouTube, the marshal saved Vettel's butt. Saying that, I'm happy this is finally resolved.

Bring on 2013.

Except Vettel's butt didn't need saving...

[stillOrange]

LOL like I said on YouTube, the marshal saved Vettel's butt. Saying that, I'm happy this is finally resolved.

Bring on 2013.

How?
Marshals are the people that decide on flags. Lights on the side of the track are there to make marshal's decisions more visible and not another way around!
Vettel would not overtake if he didn't see the green flag being waved!

[Fontainebleau]

Post #364 on the thread (just the page before).

As Diablo said, at 11.50, on the left of the video.

Here is the gif of that part in super slow mo so you cannot miss it.

Thank you, the slow motion was really helpful!

You didn't really look, did you?

I did, but I work during the day till quite late and my time in the forums is necessarily limited - a restriction apparently you do not have.

[Diablobb81]

And the TR also starts slowing after that point. Just noticed that. Could be a coincidence.

[stillOrange]

Thank you, the slow motion was really helpful!


I did, but I work during the day till quite late and my time in the forums is necessarily limited - a restriction apparently you do not have.

You're welcome it wouldn't take that much of your precious time to read 2 last pages.
I hope it is clear for you as well that his overtakes were all good.

And your little dig at my time spent on these forums ... seriously? Just have quick look on our post counts and tell me who spends more time here.

[LoudHoward]

Even looks like Seb is looking over at the marshal?

[D.M.N.]

Andrew Benson ‏@andrewbensonf1
Ferrari trying to establish whether there is enough evidence to protest Sebastian Vettel for overtaking under yellow flags. Story soon
9:37 PM - 28 Nov 12 ·

[Diablobb81]

Andrew Benson ‏@andrewbensonf1
Ferrari trying to establish whether there is enough evidence to protest Sebastian Vettel for overtaking under yellow flags. Story soon
9:37 PM - 28 Nov 12 ·

They should protest if they think they are right. But they should be punished if the protest is denied. A 1-2 race ban would be enough.

[BigBadBless]

They should protest if they think they are right. But they should be punished if the protest is denied. A 1-2 race ban would be enough.

Why on earth would that happen, if they have sufficient evidence to protest, they can protest. That's what the system is there for...

[D.M.N.]

Online article: http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20531638

Interesting note as well

Article 179b of the international sporting code says: "If, in events forming part of an FIA championship, a new element is discovered, whether or not the stewards of the meeting have already given a ruling, these stewards of the meeting or, failing this, those designated by the FIA must meet… summoning the party or parties concerned to hear any relevant explanations and to judge in the light of the facts and elements brought before them."

It adds: "The period during which an appeal in review may be brought expires on 30 November of the year during which the decision that is liable to review has been handed down, if that decision is likely to have an effect on the result of a championship."

That appears to give the FIA until Friday to resolve the situation one way or another.

-----------

BBC Sport asked the FIA:
- If the stewards of the Brazilian Grand Prix had investigated the incident in question during the race.
- If there was a green flag waved on lap four at the marshals' post on the inside of the track after the exit of Turn Three.
- If the FIA was now investigating the incident.
The FIA declined to comment.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

They should protest if they think they are right. But they should be punished if the protest is denied. A 1-2 race ban would be enough.

Hilarious, if only because it's an unbelievably daft thing to say.

[Cenotaph]

Nice hipocrisy, and then they wonder why Vettel mentions dirty tricks...

[80mf]

Why does it matter if he didnt get a penalty or not? He would of still won the title either way

[joshb]

That would be the lowest of the low by Ferrari if they were serious about that

[Diablobb81]

"Moreover, if it is proved that the author of the protest has acted in bad faith, the ASN may inflict upon them one of the penalties laid down in this Code."

You guys didn't watch much F1, do you? As for knowing the rules this thread provides plenty of evidence of ignorance.

Edited by Diablobb81, 28 November 2012 - 21:54.

[RockyRaccoon68]

That would be the lowest of the low by Ferrari if they were serious about that

On the evidence I have seen in this thread I completely agree but if they had some evidence that Vettel had indeed broke the rules then they would be right.

[ayali]

The FIA declined to comment.

Me thinks that will remain so until December 1st ;)

[Brandz07]

Why does it matter if he didnt get a penalty or not? He would of still won the title either way

Prove it? Nobody knows what would of happened if he'd received a penalty.

[Skinnyguy]

That would be the lowest of the low by Ferrari if they were serious about that

They´re not stupid, they´d have seen the footage 100 times before some genious decided that he had just seen an illegal pass.

It´s funny to read in Spanish press how they won´t protest, but not because there are not any reasons to protest, but because they know how pro RB the FIA has been recently so they won´t bother.

[LiJu914]

Maybe someone should text Ferrari, that they should read this thread to make their decision.

[80mf]

Prove it? Nobody knows what would of happened if he'd received a penalty.

He would of been 9th behind Kobayashi and needed 7th for the title, dont think Red bull would of let Vergne and Webber finish ahead of him in that situation.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

"Moreover, if it is proved that the author of the protest has acted in bad faith, the ASN may inflict upon them one of the penalties laid down in this Code."

You guys didn't watch much F1, do you? As for knowing the rules this thread provides plenty of evidence of ignorance.

How do you prove it's done in bad faith though? If they have evidence and the stewards disagree (eg saying it's not 100% clear, or they know something Ferrari don't), nothing will have been done in bad faith.