830 replies to this topic

[August]

Maybe we could start looking at all Alonso's laps onboard. Maybe he's also made overtakes under yellow flags, if not in Brazil, then in previous races.

[prty]

Maybe we could start looking at all Alonso's laps onboard. Maybe he's also made overtakes under yellow flags, if not in Brazil, then in previous races.

Feel free

[Fourjays]

Hmm. Now that IS an interesting one.

The Toro Rosso did lift off the throttle quite clearly, so i think that's the get-out. Had it been anyone else, then i think there would be a legitimate grievance.

I thought it only applied when there was a problem or an off with the car that was passed? Although can't say there's ever been a case of a driver purposely letting through another under yellows...

Just another example of why Toro Rosso shouldn't be allowed to operate with a connection to Red Bull.

EDIT: I don't think this should be allowed, regardless of whether the Toro Rosso let him pass intentionally. He could have just as easily been slowing down to avoid debris - the whole purpose of there being no passing under yellows afaik.

Edited by Fourjays, 27 November 2012 - 15:05.

[wingwalker]

That's quite something, but a 20 seconds penalty for Vettel (and I guess this is what he would have gotten, if Ferrari had protested in time) would put him 7th:

6 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing-Renault 71 +9.4 secs 8
7 Michael Schumacher Mercedes 71 +11.9 secs 6
8 1Jean-Eric Vergne STR-Ferrari 71 +28.6 secs 4


(points is the last digit)

So that wouldn't change the WDC standings.


EDIT: GOT IT WRONG, nevermind.

Edited by wingwalker, 27 November 2012 - 15:15.

[Goron3]

Its interesting to see the comments along the lines of 'He was lifting to let vettel through', given that you are EXPECTED to lift in a yellow flag zone. It's really starting to do some rounds on twitter lol.

[prty]

That's quite something, but a 20 seconds penalty for Vettel (and I guess this is what he would have gotten, if Ferrari had protested in time) would put him 7th:

6 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing-Renault 71 +9.4 secs 8
7 Michael Schumacher Mercedes 71 +11.9 secs 6
8 1Jean-Eric Vergne STR-Ferrari 71 +28.6 secs 4


(points is the last digit)

So that wouldn't change the WDC standings.

+9.4 + 20 = +29.4 which would put him 8th, wouldn't it?

[wingwalker]

+9.4 + 20 = +29.4 which would put him 8th, wouldn't it?

Oh ****, right!

[engel]

this is another piece of fans being too smart for their own good. The guy on the video just chose the onboard shot cause it was blurry so you can't really see the actual flags

look, the marshal at the pit exit. He's yellow flagging.



then the crazy guy goes and hides the flag in his post



Then shock horror, he pulls out a sodden green flag. Dang. There goes the conspiracy.



Exit of T3 was greenflaged on L3, Vettel's pass was shock horror legal.

Edited by engel, 27 November 2012 - 15:15.

[Goron3]

Oh ****, right!

Ironically behind the Toro Rosso

[wingwalker]

Regarding the pictures above, Vettel's dashboard was still showing yellow light at the moment of the pass.



edit: I think Ferrari guys will be banging their heads against their desks once again.

Edited by wingwalker, 27 November 2012 - 15:19.

[engel]

Regarding the pictures above, Vettel's dashboard was still showing yellow light at the moment of the pass.

doesn't matter if Vettel's dashboard is showing purple gremlins. His responsibility is to adhere to the actual flags shown.

[Goron3]

doesn't matter if Vettel's dashboard is showing purple gremlins. His responsibility is to adhere to the actual flags shown.

He drove past 3 yellow flags before he got to the green one. But yes, I see your point

[wingwalker]

doesn't matter if Vettel's dashboard is showing purple gremlins. His responsibility is to adhere to the actual flags shown.

Is this in the rules? Honest question.

[mattferg]

Being gracious in defeat?

In the end, Vettel is WDC, he and RBR deserved it more than Alonso and Ferrari.

However, and despite all the venom spouted against Ferrari and Alonso and how badly Massa is treated (forgetting about how RBR treats its B team drivers), it would be just ironical that, if that yellow flag is true, by having its second team drivers getting out of the way as if there is no tomorrow, RBR would have jeopardized Vettel's championship.

Yes, because there isn't loads of venom and dirty tricks (mind games) sprouted about RBR... like telling the FIA to ban engine maps because Maranello couldn't get them to work... or Lewis and Alonso saying Vettel only wins because of the car... or Bruno Senna saying his dead uncle wants Alonso to win...

[Diablobb81]

Its interesting to see the comments along the lines of 'He was lifting to let vettel through', given that you are EXPECTED to lift in a yellow flag zone. It's really starting to do some rounds on twitter lol.

Did you miss the two guys in front of the TR?Look at the speed difference.

Engel i think the video is from another moment in the race than your images. Nvm: looks like you are right.

Edited by Diablobb81, 27 November 2012 - 15:34.

[dau]

Hah, thanks engel. Here i was trying to analyse pixels while it's that obvious from a different angle. Posting it anyway:

[Peat]

The light boards are not as numerous as manned-posts. That still does indicate that he was past a green flag when the pass took place.

In these situations, the Marshal Post Observer can't be held accountable for catching all that stuff, so it usually comes down to a driver complaining. Seeing as the TR was letting him through, why on earth would he?

[engel]

Did you miss the two guys in front of the TR?Look at the speed difference.

Engel i think the video is from another moment in the race than your images.

The video is from the following lap. I am showing you where the green flag zone started, which was the exit of the pitlane, as you can see there is a marshal's post there but there is no light, the first light is the one you see on the pictures (and on the video) as green further down the road. And by the way you should be able to tell why the green flag zone started there, cause the cars they were recovering were behind that point.

[Diablobb81]

Yeah, you are right.

Now the haters have to back to another video analyses.

Edited by Diablobb81, 27 November 2012 - 15:36.

[superuser]

The rules state that you can pass under single yellow flags if the pass is unavoidable (and two examples are given: if the other car slows down excessively or is lapped). The TR obviously slowed down excessively (with its top speed much higher than RB top speed and no DRS and no tow, also confirmed by the telemetry) so it's a non-issue. Even more, if the time for a formal protest was not already passed, I'm not sure Ferrari could protest something that doesn't concern them at all - only TR may protest the pass.

Not to mention that FIA would quietly tell Ferrari to **** off if they want to win anything ever again. I know that they don't mind winning unsportingly but this would be way over the top. They get all the luck in Brazil and still couldn't do it so it wasn't meant to be.

AND... I finally read the post of engel above :) So it's a total non-issue. Yes, the real flags on the track trump the light boards / dashboard indicators, so it's a total non issue but, oh well, it's not going to stop ever :) I really feel for Alonso and his fans. If it wasn't for the fantastic luck he had during the season he would never be so close to the WDC and it would be so much less painful to lose it. But the lady luck was cruel to him and lured him to believe that he had a shot and then gave enough luck to Vettel to scrap it at the end. Sometimes it's like this. Vettel will surely have similar moments too, it's inevetable

Edited by superuser, 27 November 2012 - 15:48.

[Fourjays]

Yea, does look like it's another non-issue then with that green flag.

Marginally off-topic question - what determines when the dash lights go on/off? Ie. are they triggered by the light boards?

[sv401]

Marginally off-topic question - what determines when the dash lights go on/off? Ie. are they triggered by the light boards?

Probably yes.

[Peat]

Yeah, i expect they are all on the same sensing/data loop.

[August]

Hah, thanks engel. Here i was trying to analyse pixels while it's that obvious from a different angle. Posting it anyway:

Am I seeing something brighter green than the marshall's post in that gif. Notice, the post has a roof so that brighter green is just above the steel barrier.

[sv401]

Am I seeing something brighter green than the marshall's post in that gif.

Yes. It is hard to make it out because of the poor image quality, but there is a (barely visible) green flag waved. It is the same green flag that is shown on Engel's picture from one lap earlier (the overtake is on Vergne in lap 4). So, the third alleged pass under yellows has been debunked as well.

Edited by sv401, 27 November 2012 - 16:12.

[paliyoes]

this is another piece of fans being too smart for their own good. The guy on the video just chose the onboard shot cause it was blurry so you can't really see the actual flags

look, the marshal at the pit exit. He's yellow flagging.



then the crazy guy goes and hides the flag in his post



Then shock horror, he pulls out a sodden green flag. Dang. There goes the conspiracy.



Exit of T3 was greenflaged on L3, Vettel's pass was shock horror legal.

I see a Marussia ahead Vettel and onboards shows how Vettel overtakes a Toro Rosso.

[Cenotaph]

I see a Marussia ahead Vettel and onboards shows how Vettel overtakes a Toro Rosso.

That's the point, it shows that in the lap before the actual overtake that sector was already getting green flagged.

[sv401]

I see a Marussia ahead Vettel and onboards shows how Vettel overtakes a Toro Rosso.

That is because the picture is from one lap earlier than the video. However, the same green flag is also there on the video, just more difficult to see because of the bad quality. Also, nothing happened there on lap 3 that would explain the green flag turning into yellow again for lap 4 (the yellow zone was originally there for the first lap incidents).

Edited by sv401, 27 November 2012 - 16:34.

[Kelateboy]

30 min after results published. But also there is a special deadline (30 nov) for extraordinary circumstances.

I don't believe passing under yellow flags can be classified as "extraordinary circumstances".

[Der Pate]

Is there anyone, who knows, where the yellow sector starts...at the post, where the yellow flag is shown or at that position, where the driver is able to see the flag?

And talking about the Torro-Rosso-Red-Bull-connection: What about the Ferrari-Torro-Rosso-conection, because they use the same engines? Or is Sauber helping Ferrari, because they are customers?

[superuser]

the yellow sector starts at the post, where the yellow flag is shown That's your answer

[engel]

the track is broken up into marshal sectors (nothing to do with timing sectors), at the start of each marshal sector there is a marshal post. Any flags shown by the marshal post come into effect at that post and cover the entire sector. In the pictures I posted above Post 5 is the start of Marshal Sector 4 (which ends at Post 6)

[jerriy]

Edit: he may have passed under yellow - Ferrari is examining evidence (insert ominous music here) >>> http://www.formula1m...eras-amarillas/

Edited by jerriy, 27 November 2012 - 18:36.

[Fontainebleau]

Even if true nothing will happen because the time limit for a protest has passed. The result will not now be changed.

Didn't Hamilton get DSQ from Australia 2009 after the second hearing with the stewards that took place on the Wednesday after the race? That is what I remember from the top of my head.

[Fontainebleau]

Yes, because there isn't loads of venom and dirty tricks (mind games) sprouted about RBR... like telling the FIA to ban engine maps because Maranello couldn't get them to work... or Lewis and Alonso saying Vettel only wins because of the car... or Bruno Senna saying his dead uncle wants Alonso to win...

When did he say that? I have missed it, and it sounds weird.

Alonso and Hamilton are fully entitled to think that Vettel wins because of his car (in fact, there are others who say the same); they may be right or wrong in that assesment, but that is not a dirty trick. As for teams asking FIA to review RBR'engine maps, again that is not a dirty trick - that is well within the rules.

Frankly, I think that Vettel has lost a great opportunity to keep his mouth closed and just bask in the glory of the WDC.

[ceradyne]

I'm just trying to understand what happened and also trying to understand how the rules on those lights exactly are, which is not that easy considering all the contradicting things people say on the internet. I grew up watching F1 in the '80s & '90s, when the rules depended on flags, not on lights that are flashing are not, as a result I am not fully aware of the exact rules of the lights and the significance on whether they are flashing or not. I guess we should look up the official FIA F1 rules for that.

Besides: if the rule is that you can not overtook AFTER a yellow (flashing?) light, how do you know, in the case of the HRT overtaking, that there wasn't ANOTHER light before that. Because the youtube video of this is only a couple of seconds long. So how can one be certain that there wasn't another yellow light before the light that we see?

[url]http://www.formula1....sport/5282.html[url]

Yellow flag
Indicates danger, such as a stranded car, ahead. A single waved yellow flag warns drivers to slow down, while two waved yellow flags at the same post means that drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop if necessary. Overtaking is prohibited.

Green flag
All clear. The driver has passed the potential danger point and prohibitions imposed by yellow flags have been lifted.

Red flag
The session has been stopped, usually due to an accident or poor track conditions.

Blue flag
Warns a driver that he is about to be lapped and to let the faster car overtake. Pass three blue flags without complying and the driver risks being penalised. Blue lights are also displayed at the end of the pit lane when the pit exit is open and a car on track is approaching.

Yellow and red striped flag
Warns drivers of a slippery track surface, usually due to oil or water.

[SCUDmissile]

I don't understand is why if they have green flagged the sector, that Vettel still has the yellow light in his car onboard?
And that the lights before weren't changed in the video?

EDIT: Here ia another vid, if you guys havent seen it.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=LFER0esusF0

Edited by SCUDmissile, 27 November 2012 - 19:31.

[sv401]

I don't understand is why if they have green flagged the sector, that Vettel still has the yellow light in his car onboard?

Perhaps because the onboard is synchronized with the lights, and not the flag. Whatever the technical explanation is, the flag takes precedence over the onboard lights, so the pass was legal.

And that the lights before weren't changed in the video?

Because those lights were still in the yellow flag zone. It ended at the point where the green flag was waved by the marshal.

[LiJu914]

I don't understand is why if they have green flagged the sector, that Vettel still has the yellow light in his car onboard?

Because a Flag is not connected to a loop, which might switch lights on a dashboard.;)

And that the lights before weren't changed in the video?

Why were the lights changed to green before the braking zone at the backstraight?
Did you see something dangerous between the last yellow light and the first green light?

A yellow-zone ends somewhere and gree-zone begins somewhere, so what´s the point?

Edited by LiJu914, 27 November 2012 - 20:00.

[SCUDmissile]

Perhaps because the onboard is synchronized with the lights, and not the flag. Whatever the technical explanation is, the flag takes precedence over the onboard lights, so the pass was legal.



Because those lights were still in the yellow flag zone. It ended at the point where the green flag was waved by the marshal.

Thanks guys.
There is no agenda with my previous post, just wanted to know the full issue.

[chapilinux]

Video

[Showty]

doesn't matter if Vettel's dashboard is showing purple gremlins. His responsibility is to adhere to the actual flags shown.

Man, they just can´t make it more difficult

U have something like 3 consecutive yellow lights, then u have ur own car yellow lighted, u r driving at 280km/h, u have to consider that there is a marshall on one side of the track with a different flag that u might not even see clearly, and u have to consider that is the definitive ruling.

Seriously, these something wrong with the sport, they are men, not superheroes, it´s imposible to control that much detail in those circunstances.

People is here using the best of their abilities (and their computers´ ) to see that man on the on board camera, and there´s no way to see him clearly, don´t think Vettel was that much lucky.

FIA needs to really take care of these things.

[fololo]

Video

To summary.. his car was showing yellow and the flag.. then he overtook and it was green flagged while he was overtaking

[Infinityl]

this is another piece of fans being too smart for their own good. The guy on the video just chose the onboard shot cause it was blurry so you can't really see the actual flags

look, the marshal at the pit exit. He's yellow flagging.



then the crazy guy goes and hides the flag in his post



Then shock horror, he pulls out a sodden green flag. Dang. There goes the conspiracy.



Exit of T3 was greenflaged on L3, Vettel's pass was shock horror legal.

Thats secuence show how Vettel overtake was with yellow flag.

In the photo 1, you can see how the marshal have yellow flag, and we are in lap 3, when Hamilton pass he start change to green flag, and when Vettel pass is green flagged. BUT LAP 3, if the marshall was changing flag at the photo 1, in the lap 2 he should be showing yellow flag, so Vettel overtake was under yellow flag.

[LiJu914]

Thats secuence show how Vettel overtake was with yellow flag.

In the photo 1, you can see how the marshal have yellow flag, and we are in lap 3, when Hamilton pass he start change to green flag, and when Vettel pass is green flagged. BUT LAP 3, if the marshall was changing flag at the photo 1, in the lap 2 he should be showing yellow flag, so Vettel overtake was under yellow flag.

Vettel didn´t overtake the Toro Rosso on lap two, but on lap 4. Can´t you see that, he´s even still behind all that backmarkers?

[artista]

Video

Yes, yes, yes, the same video again, but now in Spanish.
I'm perfectly aware the Forocoches Talibans have agreed to spam the international sites to see if they can win, for their driver, a championship in an office, since he wasn't able to win it on track.

First, that '3rd yellow flag' in the video is not a yellow flag.
Second, can't you really understand that between the last flashing yellow flag and the flashing green flag there is waaaaaaaaay too much distance and there MUST be a marshal post. What you guys have to look at is what is the marshal waiving, in case he's waiving something, of course.

PS. With Forocoches Talibans, I'm only talking of the F1 ones. Most of the rally forococheros are lovely and actually know what they are talking about

[Cenotaph]

Thats secuence show how Vettel overtake was with yellow flag.

In the photo 1, you can see how the marshal have yellow flag, and we are in lap 3, when Hamilton pass he start change to green flag, and when Vettel pass is green flagged. BUT LAP 3, if the marshall was changing flag at the photo 1, in the lap 2 he should be showing yellow flag, so Vettel overtake was under yellow flag.

But he passed on lap 4

[josepatches]

But he passed on lap 4

Even He overtakes one HRT here on lap 3 so on lap 4 he already knew there was green flag after the corner

[Ferrari2183]

This is no way to win a title. I didn't like it when McLaren did it in 2007 and I don't like it now.

Anyway, isn't it that championships and results can be altered until the 31 December?

[discover23]

I know, in the end he got his WDC in a non legitimate way as the images show but oh well, next time

Makes me wonder though what the hell was Ferrari doing, staying still and not going through the videos of the race.

Ferrari raised the complaint to Charlie.. But what they said was that those lights were for wet track and not for caution. the commentators were not fully convinced .