830 replies to this topic

[Crossmax]

Ok, so why in lap 3 led in Vettel's car turn off just when he passed that marshall in the lap that we have an evidence of green flag? not connected ? perhaps a secret button or a small pannel in that marshall stand?

You must understand that actual flag is more important than flashing lights on boards and cockpit. So the question is, what flag is shown at the exit of the pit lane (left side of the track) on lap 4. It for sure is not a yellow, and it very much looks green.

[f1fastestlap]

Please read the other thread. It's not another view, the discussion is all about the third move and users here already provided us evidence that a marshall waved a green flag before Vettel made his move

It's still another view for me...

[Infinityl]

Vettel dashboard is not connected to a Marshal with a normal flag (it just a wooden stick, with some textile attached to it ;) ).

On lap 3 the T3-light showed green, on lap4 it showed yellow. So it´s normal that his dashboard was different between lap 3 and 4.

But the question remains, whether the marshal, slightly behind the T3 light, waved green on lap 4 or not (even if he did that by mistake, VET would be excused as he can´t be punished, just because he followed a marshal´s instruction no matter if this instruction is right or wrong).

I´ve posted the pics above. Everyone can figure it out for their own.

yes, i see you figured that is a flag, i dont see a flag there. So until we have an evidence of the marshall green flag, that we havent, we must truth the led of the cars.

[mnmracer]

It's still another view for me...

Another view or not, it still misses the green flag ;)
But this was yesterday's news. I'm kind of wondering what alleged illegal overtake we're gonna hear about today.

[Infinityl]

You must understand that actual flag is more important than flashing lights on boards and cockpit. So the question is, what flag is shown at the exit of the pit lane (left side of the track) on lap 4. It for sure is not a yellow, and it very much looks green.

yes, i understand that. In lap 4 i see the yellow flag in right side but i dont see any green flag at the marshall. I think the thing you are seeing isnt a flag, and even the stand is green, in a onboard camera at 260km/h with very poor quality ... Until we have an evidence we must truth the led in car how i say before.

[RedBaron]

You can read it from both ways:

- The Toro Rosso slowed down so Vettel had no choice but to pass in the interest of safety and keeping the way clear.

- The Toro Rosso slowed down but stayed on the racing line, over taking was dangerous with the yellow flags flashing/waving the Toro Rosso could have been slowing down for an incident, which means immediately diving up the inside and overtaking is dangerous and contravenes the yellow flag rule regardless of his reasons for slowing.

In reality though, does it matter? The Toro Rosso was moving aside for Vettel, it had slowed/lifted off down. It wouldn't change the championship because the Toro Rosso was jumping out the way anyway. It isn't like it was going to be an immense battle that could have ended Vettel title hopes.

What has happened to people these days. The Championship is over and Vettel won it. Alonso lives to fight another day as one of the best driver is Formula 1, don't try and find weak technicalities that hands him the title.

[encircled]

Here are 5 frames from the gif











gif of the 5 frames

Edited by encircled, 28 November 2012 - 12:59.

[August]

Because the light on the right hand side of the exit of T3 showed green. How often do i have to tell you that?


The marshal´s stand however is slightly behind that light and on the other side of the track.

Not only slightly, look at this:

http://184.106.145.7...012-circuit.jpg

By the way, does anybody else see the flag wawed in the last frames of the gif.

Edited by August, 28 November 2012 - 10:54.

[f1fastestlap]

Another view or not, it still misses the green flag ;)
But this was yesterday's news. I'm kind of wondering what alleged illegal overtake we're gonna hear about today.

Don't ask me, I'm done with this year's championship as we all should but I'm afraid people will try and find something else to talk about.
I just found that link interesting as the guy explained things very easily to follow...

[choyothe]

Actually no. You can overtake under yellows if someone a) Drives off circuit b) Slows down a lot (possibly for technical problem etc.)

Which it did, Vettel went from a non-overtaking position to being well clear even before the braking zone, so even if it was done under yellows it's not illegal.

[Myrvold]

Which it did, Vettel went from a non-overtaking position to being well clear even before the braking zone, so even if it was done under yellows it's not illegal.

Even though, you often see people riding behind backmarkers through yellows, because they cant overtake, and that's lapping. I'm not convinced that the TR letting Vettel passed was "slow enough".

If it was yellow or green, I have no idea about though!

[coos]

What's more dangerous? Vettel overtaking a car that had slowed down, or Alonso outbraking himself under crystal clear yellow flags?

Lap 5, minute 5:38:

Edited by coos, 28 November 2012 - 11:09.

[LiJu914]

yes, i see you figured that is a flag, i dont see a flag there. So until we have an evidence of the marshall green flag, that we havent, we must truth the led of the cars.

But at least you agree that the marshal didn´t wave a yellow flag (for comparison look at the shot from lap 2 of ALO´s onboard above), right? Despite the quality it´s easy to spot the flag on lap 2, even if you watch the video in live-speed. It´d be odd if the Marhsal decided to wave no flag at all on lap 4 (not even yellow, which he certainly didn´t) , because he always waved a flag, when the light was blinking yellow in others cases (lap2, lap3 shortly before Vettel came through, lap 56 e.g.).

Edited by LiJu914, 28 November 2012 - 11:15.

[Der Pate]

I read comments here from some users, who have the opinion, that passing a backmarker (which is described as every car, which isn´t a Ferrari or McLaren) cannot be regarded as overtaking...as a result nothing happened here...

[mnmracer]

I read comments here from some users, who have the opinion, that passing a backmarker (which is described as every car, which isn´t a Ferrari or McLaren) cannot be regarded as overtaking...as a result nothing happened here...

Those comments are completely irrelevant.
I'd advice you to read up on the factual comments ;)

[Lord Snooty]

I didn't see any difference between Vettel and the cars ahead of him, they all took the same racing line



Senna was obviously not on the normal racing line because he tried to overtake Hülkenberg.

Look at the vid in your post; stop it at precisely 58 seconds in. You will see 4/5 cars on the same line as Senna. You will see Di Resta wide to the right of that line and Vettel at an acute angle coming in from further to the right of Di Resta (he was very wide). No cars ahead of Vettel took his line.

[Lord Snooty]

Neither Senna nor Vettel did anything "reckless".

It's freaking obvious that Vettel didn't and COULDN'T see Senna due to DiResta and poor overall visibility and oh, the fact that he was freaking many cars behind him and F1 cars have tiny mirrors. Senna didn't do anything wrong either, Vettel was also obscured for him until he started turning in.

People only freaking look at Senna's onboard and think Vettel just turn in on him. Vettel did his job and went carefully and made sure he had cleared DiResta. How many cars behind him THAT HE COULDN'T SEE can he possibly be expected to account for.

It was a freak racing incident, there doesn't have to be someone to blame. And I couldn't care less what McNish says, though I'll admit he sure knows all about running into other cars.

Freaking funny

[choyothe]

What's more dangerous? Vettel overtaking a car that had slowed down, or Alonso outbraking himself under crystal clear yellow flags?

Lap 5, minute 5:38:

Alonso outbraking himself of course. I don't think anyone ever insinuated these things were based on logic.

[michal2009b]

I used my f1 timing app to analyse these situations with yellow flags.

Firstly we have yellow in sectors 4, 5 and 6 due to Senna/Perez/Vettel incident on lap one.
Then we've yellow in sectors 2 and 3 due to Maldonado's crash at Turn 3 one lap two.
When Vettel was lining up to pass Pic on lap three it was annonuced clear in sectors 4, 5 and 6 (that's why flag marshal is waving green flag when 11th-12th driver passed by)
So Vettel's move on the Marussia is clearly legal. DRS was also enabled at that point.
However when the drivers were in the middle of the third lap the DRS was disabled, because we have yellow in sector 4 again (for 10-15 seconds it was green there).
When Vettel passes Vergne we have yellow in sectors 2 and 3 (for Maldonado's incident) and in sector 4 (probably extending the yellow zone to another sector).

From that analysis you can see that Vettel's pass was made under yellow flags and you shouldn't pay attention to what flag was waved by the marshal on lap three, because it doesn't matter.

Ironicially when Vettel was heading towards Ferradura, there was green in sector 4 again!

Edited by michal2009b, 28 November 2012 - 11:23.

[Der Pate]

Those comments are completely irrelevant.
I'd advice you to read up on the factual comments ;)

After reading this thread, I´m not really sure, if some other comments here are "more relevant"...

[August]

From that analysis you can see that Vettel's pass was made under yellow flags and you shouldn't pay attention to what flag was waved by the marshal on lap three, because it doesn't matter.

So if the lights wouldn't work properly and show green when they should show yellow, you are allowed to pass even if a marshall showed yellow flag.

If the marshall showed green, it was OK.

[michal2009b]

Is marshal weaving a green flag on LAP FOUR when the controversy happened? I can't see anything, no green, no yellow. It would be strange to see a yellow flashing board on the exit of T3 (start of sector 4) and then green flag in a short distance.

[sv401]

Read the floppy marker explanation already linked multiple times. If the incident that caused the yellow flag is before the marker, and the "yellow" zone ends at the end of the straight split by the marker, then it is legal to overtake already after the marker. This is reinforced by the green flag waved by the marshal after the last yellow light. The dashboard LED lights are not relevant to the legality of the pass, however desperately some people want to make it look like that.

[Cenotaph]

Is marshal weaving a green flag on LAP FOUR when the controversy happened? I can't see anything, no green, no yellow. It would be strange to see a yellow flashing board on the exit of T3 (start of sector 4) and then green flag in a short distance.

Not necessarily strange as the lights are technically supposed to be still at the corner and the flag is already well into the straight.

[Crossmax]

Is marshal weaving a green flag on LAP FOUR when the controversy happened?

Yes, I believe he does.

It would be strange to see a yellow flashing board on the exit of T3 (start of sector 4) and then green flag in a short distance.

Yes it would, but that is not relevant. Even if it was a mistake by that marshal, Vettel has been shown a green flag and is therefore free to overtake.

[dau]

Is marshal weaving a green flag on LAP FOUR when the controversy happened? I can't see anything, no green, no yellow. It would be strange to see a yellow flashing board on the exit of T3 (start of sector 4) and then green flag in a short distance.

Not really, because green flags "should be waved at the marshal post immediately after the incident". Marshal sectors don't matter here.

Edited by dau, 28 November 2012 - 12:26.

[Crossmax]

Not really, because green flags "should be waved at the marshal post immediately after the incident. Marshal sectors don't matter here.

This is key in this instance I believe. The LED in his cockpit conforms to the light boards, but since the incident causing the yellows occurred at turn 3, the LEDs couldn't go out until he passed the next light board well down the straight. Meanwhile, the marshal green flagged the back straight as he's post was after the incident but well before the next light board.

[paliyoes]

FIA's precedent overruling stewards

Edited by paliyoes, 28 November 2012 - 12:59.

[encircled]

[Cenotaph]

Monaco 2010 has absolutely no bearing in this situation. It relates to a different set of rules that were not clear at the time.

[Diablobb81]

FIA's precedent overruling stewards

Not really, since Michael was considered to have breached a specific rule about SC and the flag was irrelevant. In this case it is the flag which sets the rule.

New day, new fun. What will tomorrow bring us?

Edited by Diablobb81, 28 November 2012 - 13:03.

[Baddoer]

So, will Ferrari ever protest? Will Vettel lose championship or not? I don't think so.

[josepatches]

No reason to protest.

Vettel overtakes Vergne under green flag.

[LiJu914]

As some have trouble spotting something from the onboard of lap4, which could resemble a green flag (and therefore conclude there isn´t any) - i just want to show the onboard-footage of the lap before:
Heres the external shot, in which we can clearly see the green flag when VET arrives:


Now here´s really the best onboard-shot i could get of the same scene:




For comparsion one more time the shot from the following lap, which is the subject of the controversy:



Which of the pics - would you say - shows something, that resembles more of a marshal waving a flag. The first pic (from which we have evidence by the external footage, that a green flag is there) or the second pic?

Edited by LiJu914, 28 November 2012 - 13:22.

[H2H]

Apart form the usual Alonso and manager tweets there is supposed to be this on his FB

What a coincidence on his FB:

"Contest finished! On November 30th the winner will be announced. Good luck!"

Everybody can make his own conclusion.

@LiJu914: good job!

Edited by H2H, 28 November 2012 - 13:20.

[sv401]

It is ironical that Alonso fans try to use (incorrectly) Monaco 2010 as a precedent, as it is also a race where Alonso was discovered (by watching onboard footage after the race) to have overtaken a backmarker behind the safety car, and it was not noticed by the stewards. I wonder what their opinion would be on Red Bull protesting the race half a year later had Petrov not gotten into they way in Abu Dhabi ?

[TigersWood]

What is interesting is the fact that Vergnier tried to finish just 20 seconds behind Vettel, so if there was a punishment, there would be no worry.

1) Why did Red Bull think that?

2) He didn't finished 20 seconds, so it could be fatal!

Let the FIA decide.

[Kelateboy]

So, will Ferrari ever protest? Will Vettel lose championship or not? I don't think so.

Will Ferrari protest? Unlikely as they know that the time limit for protest has passed.

[Nonesuch]

I wonder what their opinion would be on Red Bull protesting the race half a year later had Petrov not gotten into they way in Abu Dhabi ?

I'm not sure about being able to protest after six months, but if it had been done immediately it would obviously have been a downer for Ferrari and Alonso fans. However, F1 is a game and you expect it to be played to win - within the rules. If you catch your opponent breaking the rules, that's fair enough!

If Domenicali had been more aggressive at protesting Red Bull's dodgy developments (there were some threats in Monaco this year, but not nothing was done with it) they could have won this year's title, too. A disqualification for Red Bull in Monaco would have given Alonso and Ferrari the WDC.

That said, I don't care for this flag-hunt. The championship has lost it's immediacy for me, and I consider it time to focus on 2013!

Edited by Nonesuch, 28 November 2012 - 13:33.

[Cenotaph]

If Vergne tried to finish 20s behind Vettel, then why didn't he do it? He was oh so close...

[dau]

[...]
From that analysis you can see that Vettel's pass was made under yellow flags and you shouldn't pay attention to what flag was waved by the marshal on lap three, because it doesn't matter.

The flags are the only thing that matters. Lights panels can replace flags, but cockpit lights are only supplementary.

Edit: Oh, sorry, i misunderstood your post. Still, your timing app only shows the status of the whole marshalling sector, not the individual marshal posts. If there was a green flag at that post, Vettel would have been free to overtake, regardless of what his cockpit lights - which are probably linked to the marshal sectors as well - show.

Isn't there really anyone with a better onboard vid of lap 4?

Edited by dau, 28 November 2012 - 13:52.

[LiJu914]

What is interesting is the fact that Vergnier tried to finish just 20 seconds behind Vettel, so if there was a punishment, there would be no worry.

That is a fact?

When VET was way less than 20sec ahead of Vergne, Vettel´s race engineer was continously advising him to drive slower.... (that was more than 60 laps after the incident, so it´s not like they could´ve known that just in the final two laps or so...).

Edited by LiJu914, 28 November 2012 - 13:38.

[paliyoes]

English version of FIA's precedent overruling stewards

http://www.youtube.c...e=youtube_gdata

[Diablobb81]

English version of FIA's precedent overruling stewards

http://www.youtube.c...e=youtube_gdata

So are you guys starting to accept that there might have been a green flag and now try to justify why it should be ignored?

Btw : In Spanish, English or whatever language : Monaco 2010 is not a precedent for Brazil 2012.

Edited by Diablobb81, 28 November 2012 - 13:47.

[LiJu914]

English version of FIA's precedent overruling stewards

http://www.youtube.c...e=youtube_gdata

Stop with this BS - Monaco 2010 was a totally different case - even the track lights showed MSC green.

And there´s a reason why many still say MSC´s move was legal and that there´s also a reason, why Hill was never steward again and the rule rewritten for clarification...

Edited by LiJu914, 28 November 2012 - 13:48.

[josepatches]

So are you guys starting to accept that there might have been a green flag and now try to justify why it should be ignored?

Btw : In Spanish, English or whatever language : Monaco 2010 is not a precedent for Brazil 2012.

Yes,I guess that's the point

[LiJu914]

On second thought...this vid is quite good compared to the gif and the steward can be seen much better. So thx for that.

[sv401]

What is interesting is the fact that Vergnier tried to finish just 20 seconds behind Vettel, so if there was a punishment, there would be no worry.

This is a stupid argument, because if Vergne wanted to finish more than 20s behind, he would have actually done that. Furthermore, wouldn't it have been simpler to retire Webber (which in my opinion the team should have done anyway, as he gained nothing noteworthy with his non-podium finish), than to rely on the alleged inter-team conspiracy ?

[josepatches]

Yes,the vid is better.

At 1:05-1:06 of the vid you can see clearly the marshall waving green flag.

[sv401]

I'm not sure about being able to protest after six months

Well, Alonso fans refer to a deadline of November 30, which applies to every race of the season, not just the last one. Otherwise, the "normal" deadline for protesting a race is 30 minutes after the end of the race.