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Oddball Engines


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#1 desmo

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Posted 16 April 2000 - 05:02

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Here's some stuff on the incredible Nomad engine. I found a snippet of text from LJK Setright's book which I have included in this post. The first time I saw this cutaway illustration in a book from the local library, I'm pretty sure my jaw literally dropped.

From 'Some Unusual Engines', LJK Setright, ISBN 0852982089
>
>
> On the other hand, a far more thorough (if not to say brilliant)
> exploitation of compounding principles by Napier enjoyed no
> success at all: their Nomad engine, conceived at a time when
> propellors were expected to be the normal means of airliner
> propulsion, did not mature until the aviation world had gone over to
> jets. Like so many unusual engines, it arrived too late ; and to be
> truthful it may be argued that it never really matured anyway, since
> it was by all accounts a pig to start.
>
> Looking at its specification, this hardly seems surprising. The
> Nomad was a 12 cylinder horizontally-opposed liqid cooled two-
> stroke compression-ignition engine cmpounded with an exhaust
> gas turbine, both of these units driving a single propellor shaft
> through reduction gears. Even the basic construction was
> satisfying: the crankcase was a two-piece structure of magnesium
> alloy castings, the two cylinder blocks were of aluminium alloy with
> dry liners fitted in each cylinder bore. Each of the cylinders had its
> own aluminium cylinder head, elegant and simple in shape
> because the 8 inlet and three exhaust ports of each cylinder were
> of course in the walls.
>
> As appropriate to a 2-stroke the the ratio of bore to stroke was
> unfashionably low, resulting in measurements of 6 and 7.375
> inches respectively. This yielded a displacement of 2505 cubic
> inches, (41.2 litres), making a fairly big engine thet weighed
> 3580lb. Beneath and behind the crankcase was the turbine
> department, where a three-stage axial flow turbine rotor was
> mounted on a shaft which drove through a variable-ratio Bair fluid
> coupling and gearing which connected it to the propellor shaft -
> which in turn conected through reduction gears to the crankshaft.
> Coupled ot the turbine shaft was the compressor, a twelve stage
> axial flow affair delivering air to the cylinders at very high pressure
> (8.25 atmospheres) and in enormous quantities (13 lb/sec at
> maximum speed)
>
> Many an engine of much less complication has been debased by
> some want of efficiency in one of more of its component elements.
> It is a tribute to the design of the Nomad that,
> with so many constituent sections that could
> have let it down , it was in fact of
> extraordinary efficiency. The whole operating
> cycle was designed to extract every possible
> quantum of energy: nothing was allowed to to be
> wasted at any stage. After combustion was
> initiated by the injection of diesel fuel into
> the cylinders, the initial expansion of the charge would deliver
> power through the pistons to the crankshaft. As soon as the
> exhaust ports were uncovered expansion would continue through
> the exhaust manifold to the turbine, where the gasses and residual
> hot air produced by combustion would liberate more power for
> transmission through the hydraulic coupling to the propellor shaft.
> The total power from the crankshaft and turbine was considerable,
> and with water injection the take-off rating was 3476hp at 2050
> rev/min. But there was more to come: there as still a little energy
> left in the exhaust gasses even after negotiating the turbine, and
> this was squirted out as a jet at the back to produce a further
> 250lbs of thrust, maing a total equivalent horspower of 3570.
>
> This was equivalent to a BMEP of 205 psi, a very high figure for a 2-
> stroke. The other specific performance factors were no less
> impressive: the engine weighed virtually one pound per horsepower
> and developed 10.5 hp for every square inch of piston area - which
> provides a revealing comparison with the 6.58 hp.in^2 of the Wright
> Turbo Compound. At maximum continuous rating the Nomad
> developed 2248 equivalent horsepower, ; but looming overall was an
> incomparably mean specific fuel consumption. The engine had after
> all been concieved as the propulsive unit for a really long range
> aircraft, intended to realise the most outstanding economy. Napier
> claimed 0.33 lb/hp.hour, although Air Vice Marshal Banks has
> hinted that it never quite achieved that.
>
> It was nevertheless a most satisfying performance. Napier were not
> to be satisfied though, for thay argued that it ought to be possible
> to do something with the unburned air in the exhaust system. A
> diesel can only burn 70% of the air it breathes: they therefore
> inserted an afterburner nozzle in the exhaust manifold, injecting
> extra fuel to burn the remaining oxygen and thus allow the the
> turbine to make a much greater contribution to engine output.
>
> This and an intercooler betwen the the compressor and the
> cylinders added a mere 170lb to the total weight of the engine; but
> the result of this slight investment was a fantastic profit of no less
> than 530hp. On this basis the specific weight fell to 0.83 lb/hp -
> and who would have though that any diesel would have proved to be
> relatively lighter than the majority of spark-ignition engines gulping
> relatively larger quantitis of the best quality petrol?

Posted Image

Here's a better cutaway of the Sabre H-24






[This message has been edited by desmo (edited 04-15-2000).]

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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 April 2000 - 06:49

Absolutely unbelieveable, still not detracting from Bruce Carey's comment, but such an effort...
They would have been looking at flammability in crashes, too, a plus for diesel safety - but what a problem for the rescuers as they slipped around in all that spilled fuel!
So how about the Commer double knocker?

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#3 Billy Gunn

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Posted 16 April 2000 - 07:59

Desmo,

Brilliant as always.

Compound engines must have a future for road applications, maybe as a compound - hybrid?
For compound engines though little beats the GM Orion tank engine, in originality of thought and folly!

Billy G

[This message has been edited by Billy Gunn (edited 04-16-2000).]

#4 desmo

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Posted 16 April 2000 - 10:48

Thanks Art, thats nice of you to say. Now if I spent less time on the computer and more scratching out a living...

#5 desmo

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Posted 16 April 2000 - 13:53

Posted Image

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Here's the car and engine. Other than the fact that it is transversely mounted and any 1.5L V-12 is cool, I couldn't find anything really odd about it.

#6 edi malinaric

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Posted 16 April 2000 - 16:19

Ah, now that we have a proper forum for the forgotten branches of development, let's add a few more.

Rotary valve engines - the Aspin rotating combustion chamber and the Cross rotating single and double overhead rotating valves.

In the late 1950s I made a set of patterns for a 250cc NSU Cross type rotary valve head. Unfortunately the local foundries weren't prepared to cast them because they couldn't guarantee that the fins would come out. With hindsight, I should rather have looked at a water-cooled head.

Austin did make a 6 cylinder Aspin head engine. The main problem with the Aspin is that there is almost no way of getting a high compression ratio.

There is an Aspin type model aero engine (dial in http://www.rcvengines.com)

Desmo, you seem to have a way with pictures -can you oblige?

I would like to have another go with the Cross layout - seeing that Mazda has given us a ready source of pegs and linear seals.


#7 desmo

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Posted 17 April 2000 - 07:47

Edi, here's the correct link for the model engin site (the closing parenthesis screwed up the link in your post). www.rcvengines.com

Posted Image


The rotating cylinder is suspended on two bearings which allow it to rotate around the piston. The piston,
conrod and crank are totally conventional. A cylinder bevel gear, around the base of the rotating cylinder,
meshes with a smaller crank bevel gear on the crank - the gear ratio being 2:1. As the piston reciprocates and
the crank turns, the cylinder rotates around the piston at half engine speed. The rotary valve is formed by drilling
a cylinder port in the side of the rotating cylinder and then surrounding the cylinder with a "timing ring". The
timing ring has the inlet port, glow plug and exhaust port arranged radially around it. The rotating cylinder is thus
effectively combined with the rotary valve in a single component. The propeller is bolted to the top of the rotating
cylinder rather than the crankshaft giving the design its main operational advantages.

Posted Image

I don't see a lot of potential for this design for multi-cylinder layouts.

This thread is getting very loaded up with graphics, but a picture... especially when describing unconventional engines, so we'll have to live with it, I guess.


#8 desmo

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Posted 18 April 2000 - 07:53

I'm pretty much talking to myself here apparently, but I love these oddities. Here's a good animated illustration of a scotch-yoke mechanism in a "supercombustion" 2-stroke. I noticed when viewing this animation in IE5 that the animation doesn't run, whereas if I view it on my Netscape browser it runs fine. Does it run for you and what browser are you using? Also, I noticed that the Sabre cutaway at the top of this thread looks significantly better in the Netscape browser. Go figure. More info at: www.dennerpower.com/Home.html
Posted Image

Another scotch-yoke design, this one from CMC Research in Australia: Posted Image
Note that the piston and "con rod" describe a straight line motion, so there is no wrist or gudgeon pin. In fact with this design one can make them in one piece if one desires.



[This message has been edited by desmo (edited 04-18-2000).]

#9 desmo

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Posted 18 April 2000 - 11:21

Art, I've thought about doing a scrimshaw of a racing car. I am frankly better at drawing them than I am at the ships, but if Michael is gonna get one from me, he's paying retail!

#10 Yelnats

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Posted 18 April 2000 - 12:05

Good stuff, Desmo. The Scotch Yoke is a mechanism that worked well in the era of steam but never made a successfull transision to to high rpm internal combustion designs. All that sliding movement with excentric loads must have doomed it from the start. Do you have any records of a succesfull use in comercial designs?

#11 edi malinaric

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Posted 18 April 2000 - 17:58

Hi Desmo - in the early sixties I dirtied a fair amount of drawing paper trying to set out a flat 6 scotch yoke 1500 cc design. I even tried to make it double-acting. The main trouble was trying to arrange all the porting with still some volume left over for coolant.

Common sense eventually prevailed after I had calculated that the piston didn't stand hope in hell of surviving - and no amount of pumping water down through a hollow central connecting rod could remove enough heat.



#12 Marco94

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Posted 18 April 2000 - 22:44

Desmo,

What book did you take the drawings from? Title, author etc.

I'll see if I can scan some very interesting pictures of my own and post them here. You'll love them.

Marco.

#13 desmo

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Posted 19 April 2000 - 00:55

Marco, these images are all from the web. Refer to the thread titled "The cheating problem has been solved". I posted there how to find out where the images I post are from and how to find more info on them.

#14 desmo

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Posted 19 April 2000 - 12:47

Sounds like this one that Carrol Shelby is a major investor in: www.oxtwo.com

#15 Christiaan

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Posted 20 April 2000 - 01:03

Desmo, nice to see you kept the ball rolling much faster than I could. :)

I have seen a program on an F1 project in the mid 80s which was developed by a french guy. I have been searching all over the net for that engine coz at the time it sounded like a brilliant concept.

The engine was a 4stroke engine as normal, only it had no valves. Instead it had a complex rotating cylinder(rotating at the same frequency as an OHC would) with grooves and holes cut into it. The cylinders were arraged in a upside down V formation, and this rotating cylinder was right at the top of the vee. There was a constant fuel and air mixture sitting in a high pressure area at the top of the cylinder. The grooves on the rotating part were such that during the intake stroke air would pass via a groove into the combustion cylinder. (this is getting hard to put into words, I'll sketch it and scan it later). The groove was just long enough for the to take the piston to BTC, then the combustion cylinder was effectively sealed. During exhaust, a second groove would let the exhaust out.

The idea was that by having only one piece, instead of many valves, friction losses were reduced and treliability was increased. There was also never a problem with timing.

Ever heard of this? (if you understood it :))

#16 desmo

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Posted 20 April 2000 - 01:48

Welcome back Christiaan!

That sounds vaguely like a Cross or Aspin-type rotary valve set-up. Here's another odd valving arrangement that is actually promising: http://sixstroke.com The best description of how it works (short of downloading a rather large animation) is here in an article by motorcycle journalist Alan Cathcart: http://sixstroke.com/articles.htm

I'd love to see the set-up you describe. It doesn't sound quite like anything I've seen yet.

#17 malbeare

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Posted 20 April 2000 - 18:14

Originally posted by desmo:
Welcome back Christiaan!

That sounds vaguely like a Cross or Aspin-type rotary valve set-up. Here's another odd valving arrangement that is actually promising: http://sixstroke.com The best description of how it works (short of downloading a rather large animation) is here in an article by motorcycle journalist Alan Cathcart: http://sixstroke.com/articles.htm

I'd love to see the set-up you describe. It doesn't sound quite like anything I've seen yet.



Sixstroke a new head design for 4-strokes

(1)The Sixstroke engine is fundamentally superior to the 4- stroke because the head is no longer parasitic but is a net contributor to, and an integral part of the power generation within the engine.
(2)The 6stroke is thermodynamically more efficient because the change in volume of the power stroke is greater than the intake, compression, & exhaust strokes.
(3)The compression ratio can be increased because of the absence of hot spots.
(4)The rate of change in volume during the critical combustion period is less than in a 4stroke.
(5)The absence of valves within the combustion chamber allows design freedom.
(6) A one-piece engine from crankshaft to upper shaft becomes feasible. No head gasket.
The engine has proven to be robust on the race track, & have significant advantages over 4-strokes (1)The valving is desmodromic
(2)There are no valves to drop or bounce.
(3)The rev limit is only what the bottom end can stand.
(4)Gas flow on intake increase of 20%.
(5)No possibility of engine damage if the timing belt slips or snaps
(6)The reed valves are so close to the intake ports that their tips become the virtual port opening. This achieves variable port area & variable engine demand valve timing. The tips open late & small amounts with low throttle settings & open early & fully at full throttle

To check this out visit my site at www.sixstroke.com BEARE TECHNOLOGY Box 93 CAMBRAI SOUTH AUSTRALIA 5353



#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 April 2000 - 08:10

I like simple things like that, Art, maybe you should post a picture.
I recall years ago seeing a hot air engine, too. No kidding! It was in a museum, and it ran. Didn't give much power, however.

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#19 Marco94

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Posted 26 April 2000 - 20:31

Christiaan,

I know of the W-12 engine of Moteur Guy Negre (MGN). Is that the one you mean? I'll see if I can scan an article of it. Where did you see this odd ball engine?

Marco.

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#20 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 July 2000 - 09:35

And here's another one to keep the interest of newcomers at a high level... you're welcome to add anything appropriate.

#21 Mullaluska

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Posted 09 July 2000 - 10:53

Desmo Great info and pictures and in response to your earlier question i am viewing with IE 5.5 and the animation and pictures look fine

keep up the postings to keep all us wannbe propellerheads happy :)

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 July 2000 - 13:02

See, des, I told you we wanted more!

#23 Mullaluska

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Posted 09 July 2000 - 13:10

Originally posted by desmo
Thanks Art, thats nice of you to say. Now if I spent less time on the computer and more scratching out a living...


Yeah what you really need to do is make a living spending time on the computer

hell it works for me i almost get paid to play with computers all day long its just every now and then work interferes :(

#24 desmo

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Posted 28 September 2000 - 19:27

This is just a post to bring this thread up to the front.

#25 Billy Gunn

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Posted 28 September 2000 - 21:45

Yet again - Thanks Desmo!

I just love those Napiers - they were oddballs but they were successful in their own way. Those guys must have been right at the forefront (some would say they are probably still there!), I certainly got the impression reading LJKS over the years that he had a sneaking appreciation of their skills and imagination. I'm going to do a search for the Wulf engine now.

#26 desmo

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Posted 29 September 2000 - 01:55

I think LJK's appreciation was more than sneaking, although he surely appreciated the romantic futility of their quest to make the piston engine competitive with the budding turbines.

[p][Edited by desmo on 09-29-2000]

#27 malbeare

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Posted 29 September 2000 - 22:34

Originally posted by MN
Art, I've seen it. Someone in Australia invented it, I think I still have an article on it with photos somewhere in my basement but I can't find it.
Indeed odd ROUND looking thing with very small cylinders, 18 or 32 or even 48 of them.

MN.
I think what you are reffering to is the splittcycle engine.

There is a web site at http://www.splitcycle.com.au

Regards malbeare
http://www.sixstroke.com