1489 replies to this topic

[FPV GTHO]

But China isnt such an aero track anyway, so I bet your team will prove to be just as competitive. Heres to a good fight!

China is unique in that it is very heavy on the front tyres. The last 2 years have seen Mercedes do very well there despite being unable to keep their rear tyres lasting on other tracks.

It may see a different approach from teams or it may make no difference at all in the number of pitstops.

[yoyogetfunky]

China is unique in that it is very heavy on the front tyres. The last 2 years have seen Mercedes do very well there despite being unable to keep their rear tyres lasting on other tracks.

It may see a different approach from teams or it may make no difference at all in the number of pitstops.

Its also very top speed demanding, maybe thats why Mercedes was doing so well, with their double dds and all ;) And as a Red Bull fan, I keep my fingers crossed theyll make the front tyres last. Thanks for the info!

[H2H]

As written before the tyres and their management will be key for RBR. This doesn't mean we won't see any new parts but that the available ressources will be directed in a reasonable way at the Pirellis. It is highly doubtful that we will see fancy stuff like the DRD, as the FP time is more valuable and limited then ever. We heard for example that for the 'first time' RBR did no Q3 runs in the Oz FP3.

I'm not that convinced that RBR is (far) ahead, we will have to get more info from different tracks. As I have said before I have much faith in the strenght of the whole team, it is without a shade of doubt the one that sets the standards today in F1.

Edited by H2H, 02 April 2013 - 18:01.

[Sakae]

Problem is, that any survival technique in managing these cheese tires still could be proven only as a temporary solution, since Pirelli announced through their cryptic remark, that tires will be "reviewed" around Bahrain race, and as an outsider I will be damn if I know to what purpose that so called review will serve. Lotus and Ferrari are insisting on no changes! So, maybe tires change, maybe not. This, so called sport, is getting really circus like atmosphere.

RBR might just as well sit tight and wait about 1/3 of the season just to learn what to fix, never mind how to fix it.

[Kelateboy]

What was Shanghai track temperature last year? Malaysia's was quite low by its standard due to the rain - in the low 30C-33C, while Australia was 19C-25C.

They are using mediums and softs in Shanghai this year, similar to that of last year, I presume.

[encircled]

RBR pit stop data

Car data recorded the following stationary pit stop times (Malaysian Grand Prix 2013):

Sebastian Vettel Stop 1 (Lap 5): 2.13 seconds
Mark Webber Stop 1 (Lap 7): 2.13 seconds
Mark Webber Stop 2 (Lap 19): 2.05 seconds
Mark Webber Stop 3 (Lap 31): 2.21 seconds
Mark Webber Stop 4 (Lap 43): 2.26 seconds

[maverick69]

Word on the street is that RB were running new sidepods and a semi-coanda exhaust at a straightline test in Italy yesterday........

[Zava]

Word on the street is that RB were running new sidepods and a semi-coanda exhaust at a straightline test in Italy idiada yesterday........

corrected
somewhere else I read about DRD instead of bulge exhausts, let's see which version comes to reality.

[maverick69]

corrected
somewhere else I read about DRD instead of bulge exhausts, let's see which version comes to reality.

Lol. Thanks! Because I read it from a Ferrari source I assumed it was at the big proving ground out there (the one with the Avus style loops at the ends).

From what I read it's both (the stuff tested that is)...... although it involved a good glug of Google translate......

I wonder if the "Newey Tunnel" set-up may be a contributor to their alleged tyre issues? And they perhaps need something a little less "direct" (not that you'd know that from the last race)?

Edited by maverick69, 07 April 2013 - 12:47.

[BernieEc]

Lol. Thanks! Because I read it from a Ferrari source I assumed it was at the big proving ground out there (the one with the Avus style loops at the ends).

From what I read it's both (the stuff tested that is)...... although it involved a good glug of Google translate......

I wonder if the "Newey Tunnel" set-up may be a contributor to their alleged tyre issues? And they perhaps need something a little less "direct" (not that you'd know that from the last race)?

Don't Lotus use the same tunnel solution as Red Bull ? and they seem to be easier on their tyres than anyone. Maybe they just found a better performance gain

[maverick69]

Don't Lotus use the same tunnel solution as Red Bull ? and they seem to be easier on their tyres than anyone. Maybe they just found a better performance gain

Could well be.......

[H2H]

It is highly doubtful that they tested a different exhaust.RBR sticked to their coanda+xtunnel approach when they had considerable troubles with it at the start of 2012, they worked very hard and improved it greatly during the season, they went another step with it with the RB9, they won the last race quite convincingly with it as integral element and now they should suddendly reinvestigate a different approach which was already well-known at the start of 2012. Hardly.

Edited by H2H, 07 April 2013 - 18:19.

[V3TT3L]

Don't Lotus use the same tunnel solution as Red Bull ? and they seem to be easier on their tyres than anyone. Maybe they just found a better performance gain

Yes, but RBR has rake and Lotus doesn't.

[Kelateboy]

corrected
somewhere else I read about DRD instead of bulge exhausts, let's see which version comes to reality.

I am betting on the one with new sidepods appearing for free practices in Shanghai this friday.

[Iridescent]

Lol. Thanks! Because I read it from a Ferrari source I assumed it was at the big proving ground out there (the one with the Avus style loops at the ends).

Do you mean Vairano? Nah, too much rain and lower temperatures than Idiada. Which was hardly ideal on Sunday though..

Yes, but RBR has rake and Lotus doesn't.

Rake has to do only with balancing downforce between the two axles, not the mythical recipe for more speed. Cars with no rake can perform equally well and it's all about the route and philosophy a team has adopted.

I am betting on the one with new sidepods appearing for free practices in Shanghai this friday.

They're *very* different according to available info.

[encircled]

Here's the top view of the RBR pit stop

[Kelateboy]

Any noticable upgrades on the car? They were more concerned with showing the drivers and Marko than the car...

[Head]

horner is gonna have 3 or 4 white hairs if vettel and webber qualified in the same row and more specifically if it is the front row

[Kelateboy]

I know it is only FP1, but Mercedes looks awesome. Vettel had a change of front wing for the last stint in FP1, but I am not sure whether it was an upgraded version or a similar wing changed due to a slight damage.

The track temperature was very high at 30C-32C, and the ambient temperature was 20C-21C at 10-11am local time. It will get hotter for FP2 (2pm) and will simulate better running in the qualifying and race. Hopefully, the rise in track temperature will play into Red Bull's strength. As it is now, Shanghai which is supposed to be cold has a much higher track temperature than Australia 2013 already, which RBR struggled with tyres degradation.

[Zava]

seems like there's no mclaren style sidepod (yet).

http://i.imgur.com/nWucWJH.jpg

Edited by Zava, 12 April 2013 - 05:57.

[H2H]

seems like there's no mclaren style sidepod (yet).

http://i.imgur.com/nWucWJH.jpg

To quote myself:

It is highly doubtful that they tested a different exhaust. RBR sticked to their coanda+xtunnel approach when they had considerable troubles with it at the start of 2012, they worked very hard and improved it greatly during the season, they went another step with it with the RB9, they won the last race quite convincingly with it as integral element and now they should suddendly reinvestigate a different approach which was already well-known at the start of 2012. Hardly.

Of course they might come out with radically new 'Mc-Laren' style sidepod, but that is so extremely unlikely that it hardly is worth to into account. People should think a bit before tweeting or writing, it helps to lower the chances of writing stupid things.

Edited by H2H, 12 April 2013 - 08:02.

[Zava]

To quote myself:


Of course they might come out with radically new 'Mc-Laren' style sidepod, but that is so extremely unlikely that it hardly is worth to into account. People should think a bit before tweeting or writing, it helps to lower the chances of writing stupid things.

for all we know, they could be still bringing it for barcelona, which is traditionally the 'bring your first big in-season upgrade package' track.

[maverick69]

To quote myself:


Of course they might come out with radically new 'Mc-Laren' style sidepod, but that is so extremely unlikely that it hardly is worth to into account. People should think a bit before tweeting or writing, it helps to lower the chances of writing stupid things.

Ok Jonny Big Bollocks

[H2H]

Ok Jonny Big Bollocks

You should have followed my advice

In any case we will see what happens to my prediction. It is quite testable and falsifiable, as Popper might have put it. In any case Barcelona is as usually the most likely place to have the first big update package for all the usual reasons. This season the tyres and the generally good car have already made quite a bit of a difference compared to last year. We certainly have seen none of the many&big variations we witnessed last year with all those open and closed tunnels and big switches between exhaust specs.

Edited by H2H, 12 April 2013 - 10:43.

[Kelateboy]

Chinese GP practice quotes: Red Bull

Mark Webber - 3rd/5th: "It was good today and we achieved a lot of mileage. There are obviously some pretty quick cars out there - we saw that in Malaysia before it rained in qualifying. We're getting a lot of information, but we're still in this early phase of learning about the tyres. I think that we have a bit of work to do, but the car doesn't feel too bad, we just have to keep working on understanding the tyres. It's nice to have a stable weekend in terms of weather, which is unusual in Shanghai."

Sebastian Vettel - 4th/10th: "Today was a tricky day for us. I struggled a bit this afternoon and the gap to the guys at the top is a little bit bigger than I'd like. There are two or three things that we need to work on and then we should be in a better shape for tomorrow. I think we know what we need to do. It looks like the soft tyre is the one for qualifying, but it seems that we won't see that many stints on the soft tyre during the race."

---------------

Vettel's new rear wing with fewer slots on the end plates and a thinner chord on the rear wing's main plane. I don't know whether this new rear wing is better than the one used in the 1st 2 races because comparing Vettel's final sector time to that of Webber on their fast runs on options in FP2, Webber clocked 42.0s against Vettel 42.5s. Too much drag and downforce on the new wing despite having fewer vortex generator slots? Vettel 42.5s final sector time was clocked without any traffic issues.

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

Vettel also tried out a new front wing at the end of FP1, but I don't know whether he kept that front wing in FP2 or not. If anybody has a picture of the new front wing, please post it here.

[plumtree]

Vettel's new rear wing with fewer slots on the end plates and a thinner chord on the rear wing's main plane. I don't know whether this new rear wing is better than the one used in the 1st 2 races because comparing Vettel's final sector time to that of Webber on their fast runs on options in FP2, Webber clocked 42.0s against Vettel 42.5s. Too much drag and downforce on the new wing despite having fewer vortex generator slots? Vettel 42.5s final sector time was clocked without any traffic issues.

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

He made a mistake around the last corner in that options / low fuel lap, going off the track a bit. Though I doubt he lost that much time there.

Vettel also tried out a new front wing at the end of FP1, but I don't know whether he kept that front wing in FP2 or not. If anybody has a picture of the new front wing, please post it here.

Did he actually change his front wing though?
F1PitRadio tweets: "Vettel boxed for a new front wing"
Followed by "Ok, Sebastian, we couldn't change the front wing, so up 4 clicks. Cool the car, if you can"

Edited by plumtree, 12 April 2013 - 15:42.

[Zava]

rear wing comparison:





the main plane on Vettel's rear wing seems almost perfectly flat, we've only seen them run RWs so slim when they were racing in spa/monza, and had EBD and/or DDD...

[Kelateboy]

Did he actually change his front wing though?
F1PitRadio tweets: "Vettel boxed for a new front wing"
Followed by "Ok, Sebastian, we couldn't change the front wing, so up 4 clicks. Cool the car, if you can"

Autosport Live reported it this way :-
82 min: In fact, Rosberg comes round in 1m40.630s, as Vettel pits for a change of front wing.
83 min: This is clearly not going as expected at Red Bull. It took an age for the mechanics to get the original front wing off the car.
84 min: Then, there was a period of running around getting a newly-arrived front wing to put on the car to be tested. Vettel is back out there now.

Since it was not shown on the telecast, there is no way to know for sure whether the change took place or not. But I believe F1PitRadio message was misleading in a way that the front wing change did take place, but maybe in the haste, the engineers overlooked to adjust the AoA on the front wing, hence the message.

[Kelateboy]

A better FP3 for Vettel who for the 1st time this weekend dipped below 42s mark for S3. But Alonso's pace in that final sector was out of this world.

RBR will not be good enough to fight with Ferrari and Mercedes here for the pole, but hopefully, Vettel will prove me wrong once again.

[Vesuvius]

Mark Webber excluded from qualifying. Didn’t have enough fuel for sample. Will start at back of grid or pit lane. #bbcf1

[encircled]

Oh wow, that's the 2nd time in 6 races that RBR didn't have enough fuel for sample.

[Kelateboy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22134326

Chinese GP: Vettel can win from ninth, says Jenson Button
By Andrew Benson
Chief F1 writer Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel can win the Chinese GP despite starting ninth on the grid, says McLaren's Jenson Button.

Vettel and Button, who is eighth, sacrificed grid positions so they could start the race on the more durable 'medium' tyre. Those ahead will start on the fragile 'soft'.

Button said: "We have a very fast car next to us [Vettel]. He is starting just behind me on slightly newer tyres.

"He is the guy who is really going to challenge at the front for the win."

[encircled]

Can anybody list the new and used tires for Seb and Mark for the race?

[One]

rear wing comparison:


the main plane on Vettel's rear wing seems almost perfectly flat, we've only seen them run RWs so slim when they were racing in spa/monza, and had EBD and/or DDD...

Webber uses old, Vettel uses new, you mean?

Edited by One, 13 April 2013 - 21:15.

[HoldenRT]

Webber needs to start from the pitlane. It's the longest straight in F1. I just hope they use this as a chance to length 7th gear.. run a bit less wing and see what happens. There's not a lot to lose.

For Vettel, he could be in a very strong position if his strategy works out.

[plumtree]

Can anybody list the new and used tires for Seb and Mark for the race?

Qualifying
Vettel: Q1 - New Soft / Q2 - Old Soft & New Soft / Q3 - Old Soft & New Medium
Webber: Q1 - New Soft / Q2 - Old Soft

Race
Vettel: 1 NS, 2 NM and 1 scrubbed Medium set
Webber: 2 NS, 3NM

Webber uses old, Vettel uses new, you mean?

To see if the new wing works. It didn't apparently, since both used the old wing on Saturday.

[yoyogetfunky]

I AM NOT FEELING CONFIDENT OVER THIS QUALIFYING SESSION!

Sorry, i had to get that off my chest.

[CrucialXtreme]

Aside from the RW that was tested & the bargeboards being grinded down, the only other update I noticed on the RB9 was now there are two strakes on the floor just ahead of rear tyre.


via Sutton Images

[Kelateboy]

I AM NOT FEELING CONFIDENT OVER THIS QUALIFYING SESSION!

Sorry, i had to get that off my chest.

That is why RBR went with an alternative strategy - starting on primes. If they are as fast as those Ferraris and Mercedes, they will not the risks.

The rear wing with fewer vortex generators and thinner chord was tested in FP2 by Sebastian. His best final sector time was 42.5s, against that of Mark Webber of 42.0s during race simulations - a clear indication that the upgraded wing was not better/faster than the one raced in the 1st 2 races. Hence for the RBR decision to revert to Malaysian GP's rear wing.

I am really hoping for Sebastian to clear Button as fast as possible, fend off the midfield cars at the start, and execute a flawless 2-stoppers. I reckoned that would be his best chance to get onto the podiums.

[Kelateboy]

Insight: Formula 1 fuelling and how it can go awry
By Craig Scarborough

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106737

[One]

From Reuter:

http://uk.eurosport....-083253795.html

Formula 1 - No fuel, no wheel, no points for Webber in China


Formula 1 - No fuel, no wheel, no points for Webber in China
First no fuel in qualifying, then without a wheel in the race, Mark Webber ended a dismal Chinese Grand Prix weekend with his Red Bull rolling into retirement while a rear tyre bounced down the track on Sunday.

Reuters – 29 minutes ago
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Starting from the pitlane after being sent to the back of the grid because Red Bull failed to put enough fuel in his car for Saturday's qualifying, the Australian lasted just 18 of the 56 laps.
In that short time, he pitted twice and broke the front wing in a collision with the Red Bull-owned Toro Rosso of Frenchman Jean-Eric Vergne.
The afternoon was in stark contrast to the previous Malaysian Grand Prix, where he led until world champion team mate Sebastian Vettel ignored instructions from the pit wall not to overtake and denied him victory.
The feud between the team mates was the talk of the Shanghai paddock in the run-up to the race but they never came close to racing each other, let alone being in a position for Webber to exact any revenge.
The nearest it came to any drama, in a race dictated by tyre strategy, was when Vettel almost hit the loose right rear wheel as he rounded the turn 14 hairpin and found it bouncing and rolling in front of him.

[yoyogetfunky]

That is why RBR went with an alternative strategy - starting on primes. If they are as fast as those Ferraris and Mercedes, they will not the risks.

The rear wing with fewer vortex generators and thinner chord was tested in FP2 by Sebastian. His best final sector time was 42.5s, against that of Mark Webber of 42.0s during race simulations - a clear indication that the upgraded wing was not better/faster than the one raced in the 1st 2 races. Hence for the RBR decision to revert to Malaysian GP's rear wing.

I am really hoping for Sebastian to clear Button as fast as possible, fend off the midfield cars at the start, and execute a flawless 2-stoppers. I reckoned that would be his best chance to get onto the podiums.

He missed by .2 of a second, 12,5 sec behind the winner. Not sure if Seb wouldv kept up with Alonso though, but perhaps those laps behind Hulkenberg costed the podium?

Newey and his men should work some magic for next week or fear the worst. That Ferrari is superb in race trim.

[HoldenRT]

I think they need to look at running a race setup and longer gears and less wing. Webber's pace didn't seem too bad and his straight line speed was strong. Even if starting P10.. or P7 I think it's worth looking at for both cars. Traffic won't be as much of an issue and these days it's the race that counts.

Vettel did a really good race and if it wasn't for that first half of the race behind traffic he would have maybe been 2nd. I just think it's worth looking at to take some wing off and see how it goes. It's not like they turn into a backmarker if they do that, the pace is still quite strong and there is less load on the tyre but more straight line speed. As Hamilton showed, qualifying doesn't mean that much these days.

[Kelateboy]

He missed by .2 of a second, 12,5 sec behind the winner. Not sure if Seb wouldv kept up with Alonso though, but perhaps those laps behind Hulkenberg costed the podium?

Newey and his men should work some magic for next week or fear the worst. That Ferrari is superb in race trim.

There is a bittersweet feeling in my mouth because Sebastian could have gotten onto the podium. A few extra meters and he could have gotten Hamilton for 3rd place.

Hulkenberg ruined Vettel's strategy in the 1st stint as he overtook him on Lap 4. Luckily for Vettel the team got him out of the pits in front of Hulkenberg; otherwise game over for him in that 2nd stint. Apart from the 1st stint and the lack of pace while tail-gating Hulkenberg, I thought Vettel drove brilliantly for the rest of the race. The 4th stint on those options was majestic as he put in consistent 1min 37s laps while chasing Hamilton.

Good weekend all around. It was not perfect, but he got 12pts home.

[BernieEc]

Twitter: F1Kate
Don't know if this has done the rounds on twitter yet, but the talk in China is that webbo has signed a 5-year sportscar deal with Porsche
Kate Walker@F1Kate

[apoka]

I think RB is a bit worse than last seasons in the strategy department. Tyres are almost everything, but they seem to be focusing too much on them. They didn't make good strategy calls in Malaysia (as discussed many times) and here they were also very worried about the softs and probably not on an optimal strategy. Vettel did only few laps on the soft and Webber was pitted very early.

I think only in Barcelona when better tyres will be introduced, we will get an idea of the relative pace of the cars. So far, the RB9 shows flashes of speed, but doesn't really look consistently fast (much slower than Alonso today actually).

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Poor weekend by RBRs standards but at least Seb got 12 points from the race, hindsight is a wonderful thing because had they used the same strategy as everyone else I reckon 2nd would've been achievable but they weren't to know.

This race as well for me highlights that we need to start gearing the cars a bit longer because if you're in the middle of the pack like we were today instead of using your DRS to pass someone you just hit the limiter and a faster car in a straight line will just get past you like Hulkenberg did today.

Next week, different track, different temperature, different compounds(?) So we'll see how the team performs. They have to make sure they nail their race setup because the Ferrari in Alonso's hands today was head and shoulders above anything else.

[choyothe]

I think RB is a bit worse than last seasons in the strategy department. Tyres are almost everything, but they seem to be focusing too much on them. They didn't make good strategy calls in Malaysia (as discussed many times) and here they were also very worried about the softs and probably not on an optimal strategy. Vettel did only few laps on the soft and Webber was pitted very early.

I think only in Barcelona when better tyres will be introduced, we will get an idea of the relative pace of the cars. So far, the RB9 shows flashes of speed, but doesn't really look consistently fast (much slower than Alonso today actually).

I never thought RB was the best in strategy (although they've been almost always close to the top) but there seems to be definitely creeping up more conservatism in regards to the tyres, which I see hurting them. Tbh even in 2011 it was more about Seb making almost every strategy work with his poles and getting the gap opened up.

[encircled]

Yeah, very poor weekend indeed by RBR standards. Hopefully they can recover in Bahrain. Webber's penalty doesn't help though.

[Kelateboy]

Poor weekend by RBRs standards but at least Seb got 12 points from the race, hindsight is a wonderful thing because had they used the same strategy as everyone else I reckon 2nd would've been achievable but they weren't to know.

This race as well for me highlights that we need to start gearing the cars a bit longer because if you're in the middle of the pack like we were today instead of using your DRS to pass someone you just hit the limiter and a faster car in a straight line will just get past you like Hulkenberg did today.

Next week, different track, different temperature, different compounds(?) So we'll see how the team performs. They have to make sure they nail their race setup because the Ferrari in Alonso's hands today was head and shoulders above anything else.

The pace shown by Vettel on that last stint on options was quite phenomenal. With the benefits of hindsight, they should have pitted Vettel at the same time as Button, and he probably could have gotten 2nd. I was quite surprised that Vettel was able to keep up with the pace, unlike Button who could only push for a few laps only. It is something positive that could be a catalyst for them in Bahrain.