140 replies to this topic

[mclarennut]

"We think we can work this one out. But if we don't, we'll look at anything."

There is precedent for such a rethink at McLaren, who abandoned the car in development for the 2003 season even before it had a chance to race.

Any switch could not come immediately, with the team racing in Malaysia next weekend, and Button was pinning his hopes on the Sepang track lending a hand.

Well I hope they do this straight after the Malaysia race before it gets to late to catch up, I am not saying the 27 will be winning races from the off but it must be a hell of a lot better than a dog that can not be trained?

Come on McLaren do it sooner than later i'm begging you.

Edited by mclarennut, 17 March 2013 - 13:10.

[chumma]

I think the 27 would be at the sharp end of the grid, thats for sure, the tyres are the only unknown, but Jenson said he liked them in Brazil practice when they tried them on the 27. Really hoping they take the 27 to China and back to back it.

[study]

"We think we can work this one out. But if we don't, we'll look at anything."

There is precedent for such a rethink at McLaren, who abandoned the car in development for the 2003 season even before it had a chance to race.

Any switch could not come immediately, with the team racing in Malaysia next weekend, and Button was pinning his hopes on the Sepang track lending a hand.

Well I hope they do this straight after the Malaysia race before it gets to late to catch up, I am not saying the 27 will be winning races from the off but it must be a hell of a lot better than a dog that can not be trained?

Come on McLaren do it sooner than later i'm begging you.

as pointed our elsewhere mclaren really don't like the 8s
mp4-8
mp4-18
and now
mp4-28

[mclarennut]

Perez on the possibility of the 27: "No, there is no option for that. So we have to keep our heads up.

I am sorry if this upsets anyone, but Perez is just a pup and would have no say what McLaren does or will do, If McLaren was or was not planning to bring the 27 back he would be the last person to know, so at this stage he should not be making statements like that.

I do not dislike Perez but he has only been in the McLaren team 5 mins so should not be making bold statements.

Edited by mclarennut, 17 March 2013 - 13:19.

[button_sw]

I do think they should bring the MP4-27 to China and split the garage for back to back tests with the 28 but what is worrying is that MW is admitting they do not know why this has happened?

The noises coming out of McLaren all winter before launch was that this car is so good in the SIM, much better than the 27. Now McLaren either have a SIM that is basically giving false readings or they have forgotten how to design and build a fast F1 car.

This is a real Epic Fail by McLaren and going to Pullrod front Suspension when the rules are stable is suicidal. Embarassing :-(

Edited by button_sw, 17 March 2013 - 13:22.

[mclarennut]

as pointed our elsewhere mclaren really don't like the 8s
mp4-8
mp4-18
and now
mp4-28

Should get use the the number 8, because if they stick with the 28, they will be on 8 points at the end of the season

[ERICTOPF1]

I am sorry if this upsets anyone, but Perez is just a pup and would have no say what McLaren does or will do, If McLaren was or was not planning to bring the 27 back he would be the last person to know, so at this stage he should not be making statements like that.

I do not dislike Perez but he has only been in the McLaren team 5 mins so should not be making bold statements.

Any chance that the matter was discussed internally and the team decided no to the -27's return and that is why Perez is so sure about it?

Edited by ERICTOPF1, 17 March 2013 - 13:23.

[F.M.]

I do think they should bring the MP4-27 to China and split the garage for back to back tests with the 28 but what is worrying is that MW is admitting they do not know why this has happened?

The noises coming out of McLaren all winter before launch was that this car is so good in the SIM, much better than the 27. Now McLaren either have a SIM that is basically giving false readings or they have forgotten how to design and build a fast F1 car.

This is a real Epic Fail by McLaren and going to Pullrod front Suspension when the rules are stable is suicidal. Embarassing :-(

Don't think you're allowed to run two different tubs?

[chumma]

Sergio Perez says "No absolutely no possibility" of reverting to the 27, seems strange when Martin hasn't said a stern no.

[chumma]

Don't think you're allowed to run two different tubs?

Williams did in 05 in France? Or was it the same tub with just different bits?

[george1981]

Someone mentioned that the M4-27 hasn't been crash tested for 2013. Have the crash tests changed since last year?

[mclarennut]

I think the 27 would be at the sharp end of the grid, thats for sure, the tyres are the only unknown, but Jenson said he liked them in Brazil practice when they tried them on the 27. Really hoping they take the 27 to China and back to back it.

Yeah I remember watching the FP when they was asked to test the 2013 tyres, a few drivers went out on them and moaned about how quick they was going off, then Button came on the radio and said they seem to work fine for him, I guess that was with his style of driving, so that's when a lot of people thought it would be a great 2013 for us, but no one predicted that we would build such a bad car after the 27.

Someone mentioned that the M4-27 hasn't been crash tested for 2013. Have the crash tests changed since last year?

Im no expert but I am sure this can be done without a problem if it need to be tested.

Edited by mclarennut, 17 March 2013 - 13:28.

[button_sw]

Don't think you're allowed to run two different tubs?

Not sure of the exact rules but if Martin Whitmarsh is telling us it's a possibility it should be ok. As long as it meets this seasons rules and regs it would probably only need another crash test? Not sure to be honest.

[mclarennut]

Not sure of the exact rules but if Martin Whitmarsh is telling us it's a possibility it should be ok. As long as it meets this seasons rules and regs it would probably only need another crash test? Not sure to be honest.

I sure when they interviewed Whitmarsh on sky before Q1 they asked him would McLaren bring the 27 back? his reply was they will stick with 28 as they believe it could get better in the long run and it could be developed more over the season.

So for the sky interviewer even to ask the question and for Whitmarsh not to say it was impossible, then I guess they can use the 27 when they want?

Edited by mclarennut, 17 March 2013 - 13:36.

[toxicfusion]

I don't understand the calls for the MP4-27, its a car that has had zero development since probably the end of October (in order for updates in Brazil).

The other 2013 cars are evolutions of last year have had months of work and refinement during testing so there are no guarantees that the 27 would still be fighting near the front with Red Bull/Ferrari/Lotus if they bring it out of storage. It could be a second or worse behind that trio.


The only way for the 27 would have been any use to McLaren is if they hadn't thrown it away and gone off down a whole new route for the sake of possibly having the fastest car come the final 5 races.

[chumma]

I don't understand the calls for the MP4-27, its a car that has had zero development since probably the end of October (in order for updates in Brazil).

The other 2013 cars are evolutions of last year have had months of work and refinement during testing so there are no guarantees that the 27 would still be fighting near the front with Red Bull/Ferrari/Lotus if they bring it out of storage. It could be a second or worse behind that trio.


The only way for the 27 would have been any use to McLaren is if they hadn't thrown it away and gone off down a whole new route for the sake of possibly having the fastest car come the final 5 races.

The 27 is quicker than the 28 is currently, that is enough for me.

[CrashTestDummy]

as pointed our elsewhere mclaren really don't like the 8s
mp4-8
mp4-18
and now
mp4-28

MP4/8 was a fantastic chassis (and one of the most beautiful F1 cars ever too). If only Ron could wrestle better engines out of Ford... What could have been!




Right, back to present. MP4-28 is indeed not good, no arguing there.

[10e10]

I don't understand the calls for the MP4-27, its a car that has had zero development since probably the end of October (in order for updates in Brazil).

The other 2013 cars are evolutions of last year have had months of work and refinement during testing so there are no guarantees that the 27 would still be fighting near the front with Red Bull/Ferrari/Lotus if they bring it out of storage. It could be a second or worse behind that trio.


The only way for the 27 would have been any use to McLaren is if they hadn't thrown it away and gone off down a whole new route for the sake of possibly having the fastest car come the final 5 races.

Because the 27 was faster in Australia without developments last year than the 28 currently.

[Peter Perfect]

Surprised no-one has mentioned it yet (apologies if I've missed it)....but what do people think happened for McLaren to get so utterly lost?

They were obviously under the impression that they were doing fairly well before the car actually hit the track. So are we looking at a major mis-calibration of some kind? They were obviously able to successfully develop the MP4-27 to the end of the season so what could have changed in the simulation between the two models? Surely they went through the same engineering process?

[mclarennut]

I don't understand the calls for the MP4-27, its a car that has had zero development since probably the end of October (in order for updates in Brazil).

The other 2013 cars are evolutions of last year have had months of work and refinement during testing so there are no guarantees that the 27 would still be fighting near the front with Red Bull/Ferrari/Lotus if they bring it out of storage. It could be a second or worse behind that trio.


The only way for the 27 would have been any use to McLaren is if they hadn't thrown it away and gone off down a whole new route for the sake of possibly having the fastest car come the final 5 races.

And surely it will be a lot better to try the 27, it could go two ways, 1, it fast out of the box with the new tyres and just needs updates. 2, its slow by a second or two and would need a lot of updates. but the 28 is also 1/2s slower already and sounds like it will take a lot of updates and even then it could still have a lot of other problems.

If its not broken don't fix it

[study]

Surprised no-one has mentioned it yet (apologies if I've missed it)....but what do people think happened for McLaren to get so utterly lost?

They were obviously under the impression that they were doing fairly well before the car actually hit the track. So are we looking at a major mis-calibration of some kind? They were obviously able to successfully develop the MP4-27 to the end of the season so what could have changed in the simulation between the two models? Surely they went through the same engineering process?

Well thats the worrying thing, if you believe them they don't have a clue.

They won't go back to the .27, that be an admission of failure

Edited by study, 17 March 2013 - 13:49.

[10e10]

Surprised no-one has mentioned it yet (apologies if I've missed it)....but what do people think happened for McLaren to get so utterly lost?

They were obviously under the impression that they were doing fairly well before the car actually hit the track. So are we looking at a major mis-calibration of some kind? They were obviously able to successfully develop the MP4-27 to the end of the season so what could have changed in the simulation between the two models? Surely they went through the same engineering process?

That's what surprises me too, I don't remember when, but Whitsmarth mentioned that the 28 was already faster than the 27, that's one of the reasons I was hopeful fro this season.

One thing I hate it's currently Hamilton is laughing at us!

[P123]

Surprised no-one has mentioned it yet (apologies if I've missed it)....but what do people think happened for McLaren to get so utterly lost?

They were obviously under the impression that they were doing fairly well before the car actually hit the track. So are we looking at a major mis-calibration of some kind? They were obviously able to successfully develop the MP4-27 to the end of the season so what could have changed in the simulation between the two models? Surely they went through the same engineering process?

The MP4-28 aero work was done in the Toyota windtunnel. Perhaps there is an issue between that and correlation with their own simulator.

Edited by P123, 17 March 2013 - 13:53.

[mclarennut]

Well thats the worrying thing, if you believe them they don't have a clue.

They won't go back to the .27, that be an admission of failure

Yeah it would be tough to admit failure, just stick with it, why lose face? its better to lose millions of pounds per race, millions in future sponsorships and merchandising, lose the WDC and WCC, but at least they did not admit failure

[study]

Yeah it would be tough to admit failure, just stick with it, why lose face? its better to lose millions of pounds per race, millions in future sponsorships and merchandising, lose the WDC and WCC, but at least they did not admit failure

erm, this is McLaren and Martin "Hindsight" Whitmarsh.

[tkulla]

That's what surprises me too, I don't remember when, but Whitsmarth mentioned that the 28 was already faster than the 27, that's one of the reasons I was hopeful fro this season.

One thing I hate it's currently Hamilton is laughing at us!

To be fair in the quote I read Lewis gave words of encouragement and was certainly not laughing at McLaren. Some of his fans on this board, however...

Sepang shouldn't be as bad (smoother) but I'd love to know what was said during the debrief last night. Hopefully they are closer to understanding the issue. For all we know they figured it out in Jerez and are just waiting for the parts to be manufactured (and hopefully the tub doesn't need to be replaced).

[SunnyENTP]

The 27 is quicker than the 28 is currently, that is enough for me.

So you think they should abandon all the resources and time they spent into a new philosophy which once they understand has long term potential?

McLaren are in this for the long game not in the short term to please some fans.

[toxicfusion]

The 27 is quicker than the 28 is currently, that is enough for me.

Because the 27 was faster in Australia without developments last year than the 28 currently.

At no point have both cars run together, so no comparisons can be made. The times in Aus from this and last year are not comparable because of the differing tyres as well as the conditions in which quali took place.

And surely it will be a lot better to try the 27, it could go two ways, 1, it fast out of the box with the new tyres and just needs updates. 2, its slow by a second or two and would need a lot of updates. but the 28 is also 1/2s slower already and sounds like it will take a lot of updates and even then it could still have a lot of other problems.

If its not broken don't fix it

Trouble is the 28 is in a developmental cycle, with updates planned and in the works. The 27 has a differing philosophy to the 28 so they'd have to scrap everything they're doing and work on updates for the older car. Not to mention whole new chassis would probably need to be built of the 27 as I don't imagine the ones from last year are as pristine as they were.

Edit: I did say at the bottom of my original post that McLaren would have better to stick with the 27 and evolve that concept ;)

Scrapping a car for the sake of it won't happen, Ferrari had the same calls last year and McLaren had the same calls in 09. They won't do it and will persevere with the 28.

Edited by toxicfusion, 17 March 2013 - 14:37.

[Buttoneer]

Topic split form the MP4-28 thread. Please discuss the practicality, possibility and value of bringing back the MP4-27, here.

If you really hate the idea of even discussing this, please ignore the thread.

[RealRacing]

Bring back the 27, give the 28 to Massa to develop for 2014. Err, wait, no...

Seriously, as I have said elsewhere, it's strange that McLAren decided to come up with a complete new package instead of just improving on what was a top 3 car last season, especially considering that 2014 will have changes. Did they decide to sacrifice 2013, or at least the first part of it, in order to develop the 2014 car (although if the changes are as important as I understand, this might not even be doable?)

Edited by RealRacing, 17 March 2013 - 18:47.

[charly0418]

Here's another point to consider,

Didn't McLaren say that Tim Goss was the one who designed the MP4-27 car? Now he's the Technical Director... might as well give him the car he made.

If they don't get competitive by Barcelona heads are gonna roll for sure

[P123]

An updated 27 may be preferable if they can't make any progress with the 28 over the next few races.

[Insane111]

*snip*

Scrapping a car for the sake of it won't happen, Ferrari had the same calls last year and McLaren had the same calls in 09. They won't do it and will persevere with the 28.

2009 was a completely new aero formula so scrapping the 24 was no option for McLaren, and they pretty much made a b-spec anyway. Not sure it was viable for Ferrari last year either, given the rule changes. When you finish a season with the fastest car but start the next one up to 2 seconds off the pace - with little in the way of regulation changes - reverting back has to be a seriously considered option. Whether they'll do it is another matter. Depends on the severity of the 28's issues, I guess.

[pizzalover]

It's too late. The 27 might score more points, but it's not going to win a championship. Might as well go for the big gamble and carry on with the 28.

If it does turn into a rocket ship, anything is still possible. The 27 would be an admission of defeat.

[MercPower]

Because the 27 was faster in Australia without developments last year than the 28 currently.

Doesn't work like that, Last years Mercedes car was faster than this years car in Australia also by about 2 seconds.

Can't compare it.

[Myrvold]

Isn't the cockpit homologated, and therefor cannot be changed?

[Szoelloe]

Isn't the cockpit homologated, and therefor cannot be changed?

There s no homologation anymore.

[Lights]

They shouldn't bring back the MP4-27. The MP4-28 isn't bad, the drivers are.

[Dalton007]

SkySports:

The McLaren boss is hopeful his team can learn how to get the best out of the high chassis design of the MP4-28, but did not rule out reverting to their 2012 philosophy.

"Well, not before next weekend that is for sure," Whitmarsh told Sky Sports F1 when asked at what stage the team might have to look at going back to a design similar to the MP4-27.

Button - McLaren way off the top
"We will see, we are not too proud to say when we get things wrong, and we do occasionally. But for the time being we have to try and get some understanding and do the best job we can do go forward with this car as quickly as we can.

"It probably won't be as quick as I'd like or many people would like but we think we can work this one out, but if we can't we will look at anything."

I bet they've already got the 27 out. I'd ship out one to China for comparisons sake. Give it to JB and see how it goes.

[F1ultimate]

They shouldn't bring back the MP4-27. The MP4-28 isn't bad, the drivers are.

Nick Heidfeld to replace Perez by Budapest?

Edited by F1ultimate, 17 March 2013 - 19:41.

[Lights]

Nick Heidfeld to replace Perez by Budapest?

Perez? Leave the innocent youngster alone. Kick Button out, he doesn't know what he's doing. Rather today than in Budapest.

[BillBald]

Doesn't work like that, Last years Mercedes car was faster than this years car in Australia also by about 2 seconds.

Can't compare it.

Are you talking about one-lap pace? Because Schumi's quali lap last year was very good, but the car was slow in the race.

I think that if they raced the 27, they would be up there with the leaders, I'm not convinced that anyone except Merc made a big step forward.

I think they may revert to the 27, but probably too late. If they haven't got a clear understanding of the 28's problems by China, they should bring the 27.

[Les]

To answer the poster above about crash tests I believe that's the monocoques have to be significantly stronger this year.

Whatever they decide to do Whitmarsh now needs to stand up and make and make his impact felt as Team Principle. He must be decisive so McLaren know now whether to get the MP4/27 ready for Shanghai (or Bahrain if its impossible to update it by then) or to stick with their current car for China.

[DutchQuicksilver]

They shouldn't bring back the MP4-27. The MP4-28 isn't bad, the drivers are.

So Alonso would put it on pole, despite the car being 2 seconds off the pace in the hands of Button? Come on now, we know Button is no top driver, but certainly good enough to not be 2 seconds off the pace.

[maverick69]

Erm........... Yes.

The race just gone goes to show that the cheese tyres will probably be throwing up some rather unpredictable results in the short to medium term (a la 2012).

Re-deploying the 27 will remove a significant amount of variables.

No doubt they'll make a decision in the next 6 months or so.........

[SUPRAF1]

I just cannot understand the logic of introducing a revolutionary car on the last season before a major rule/engine overhaul, especially considering how the previous iteration was considered to be arguably the fastest car :S.

[Massa_f1]

SkySports:



I bet they've already got the 27 out. I'd ship out one to China for comparisons sake. Give it to JB and see how it goes.

I would do the same. If the car continues to struggle and is around 10th or lower at least bring the 27 to China. They have nothing to loose in doing so. Otherwise they may as well start all efforts on 2014 as soon as these fly aways are over

[coppilcus]

They shouldn't bring back the MP4-27. The MP4-28 isn't bad, the drivers are.

Alonso could win seven championships on the MP4-28...

...

Bringing back the 27 could just add another mistake by the team... all the fittings for Sergio, crash tests, new technical leadership on the 28 not the 27, etc, would have to be done again. Ferrari demonstrate that their car could be tamed and right now is better shape than last year, McLaren can certainly tame faster the 28...

[pdac]

To answer the poster above about crash tests I believe that's the monocoques have to be significantly stronger this year.

Whatever they decide to do Whitmarsh now needs to stand up and make and make his impact felt as Team Principle. He must be decisive so McLaren know now whether to get the MP4/27 ready for Shanghai (or Bahrain if its impossible to update it by then) or to stick with their current car for China.

Oh, so we have it then. It's the 28 for the rest of the season while he considers his decision.

[Lights]

Oh, so we have it then. It's the 28 for the rest of the season while he considers his decision.

It will come down to that.

And perhaps it's the right choice. I think it's likely it is the right choice, because there's more future potential. Season is still long, the start is ruined, even if they bring back the 27 now.