3946 replies to this topic

[Atic Atac]

That investigation is right next to the one for Massa to "illegally" driving on 3 wheels instead of 4.

Yup, alongside kimi in china for having an ilegal hole in the nose which some suspect could have aerodinamic implications

Edited by Atic Atac, 26 April 2013 - 17:15.

[repete]

If the DRS activates outside the permitted zones it is the fault of the (FIA) system, just like in China last year with Alonso's car.

Drivers can't activate the DRS just anywhere on the track even if they wanted to, system won't allow it.

They've been having telemetry problems so that might have something to do with it.

It is my understanding that the system currently has a fault and all drivers are aware of it. Apparently you can open the DRS as you please in its current state and it is the drivers responsibility to only open it in the allotted areas.

[Cavani]

why did massa run into the side of sutil , seriously it could have been a podium for sutil

[fabr68]

It is my understanding that the system currently has a fault and all drivers are aware of it. Apparently you can open the DRS as you please in its current state and it is the drivers responsibility to only open it in the allotted areas.

Alonso's DRS failed and cost him a chance to a race wing.

Acusing him on purposly run the race with it open and wanting him penalized is ridiculous at best and idiotic trolling at worst.

[Zava]

@fabr68 and Atic Atac

I think you misunderstood repete, he was not talking about Alonso's DRS flap not closing back and completing 3 laps like that, but about the end of lap 3, when he activated it right after the last turn, and jumped Rosberg with a crazy speed difference, even before the activation point - but as I already said, it was needless to be checked by the stewards, as he immediately let Rosberg back.
video of the end of lap3

edit: well, watching it again, maybe it's not a case of Alonso letting Rosberg back (as he is swerving to the right in the straight) but Alonso losing momentum because of disabling the DRS halfway for 1-2 seconds, and Rosberg capitalizing. whatever

Edited by Zava, 27 April 2013 - 18:01.

[RockyRaccoon68]

Look how unstable the rear was after DRS got stuck!

[repete]

Alonso's DRS failed and cost him a chance to a race wing.

Acusing him on purposly run the race with it open and wanting him penalized is ridiculous at best and idiotic trolling at worst.

pay attention, we are talking about BEFORE it failed. Alonso's DRS worked for 2 laps before it failed, HE opened it before the DRS activation zone on lap 3.

[fabr68]

pay attention, we are talking about BEFORE it failed. Alonso's DRS worked for 2 laps before it failed, HE opened it before the DRS activation zone on lap 3.

Show me the rules that penalize drivers for openning the DRS before the activation zone. This can only be done after the race director overrides the system togive manual control to the driver.

The fact that this "investigation" is non existant, the punishment fits the crime

[Afterburner]

It is my understanding that the system currently has a fault and all drivers are aware of it. Apparently you can open the DRS as you please in its current state and it is the drivers responsibility to only open it in the allotted areas.

I'd like to see a source for this; might be worth opening a new thread over.

[repete]

Show me the rules that penalize drivers for openning the DRS before the activation zone. This can only be done after the race director overrides the system togive manual control to the driver.

The fact that this "investigation" is non existant, the punishment fits the crime

How many times does it have to be said, The current system does not allow the FIA to control when the DRS opens, It is up to the drivers to utilize the system within the confines of the rule book. They are receiving notification of when they are within 1 sec of the driver infront, but that's it. Its broken, its been broken since Melbourne. ALL the drivers know its broken. I think they are reverting to an older system in Barcelona.

This is just the first blatant improper use of DRS that has happened, and I was curious as to if they are even policing it at all.

edit, here are some quick sources showing the telemetry link is being turned off. I also heard in commentary that all drivers are aware that the DRS telemetry is turned off.

http://www.gptoday.c...lights_and_DRS/

http://www.f1fanatic...y-link-bahrain/

Edited by repete, 27 April 2013 - 22:37.

[as65p]

This is just the first blatant improper use of DRS that has happened, and I was curious as to if they are even policing it at all.

Well, your curiosity will have to wait for a case where the driver doing the "improper" use doesn't immediately give back the advantage gained.

A driver overtaking by cutting a corner and then letting the other guy past again doesn't usually prompt a stewards investigation. Same here, I reckon.

[Cool Beans]

I'd like to see a source for this; might be worth opening a new thread over.

The issues have been widely reported, FIA even considered changing back to the old telemetry supplier for Spain but that would mean rewiring all the cars so they gave the current supplier a little more time to get their **** together. According to Brundle the drivers hear a beep in their ear when they can activate DRS. It's up to the drivers & teams to make sure they only use it in the zone.

Here's an article on autosport: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/107049

Edited by Cool Beans, 28 April 2013 - 12:30.

[Skinnyguy]

Well, your curiosity will have to wait for a case where the driver doing the "improper" use doesn't immediately give back the advantage gained.

A driver overtaking by cutting a corner and then letting the other guy past again doesn't usually prompt a stewards investigation. Same here, I reckon.

More like being taken away what they´ve just gained. He didn´t lift, brake early, or do anything to give it back. He even moved to cover at one point. He just got repassed because he cleared Nico so soon down the straight that he gave him a huge close slipstream.

[P123]

Is there some external view of this, or did he perhaps just use all of his KERS off the final turn and not DRS as suggested?

[Zava]

Is there some external view of this, or did he perhaps just use all of his KERS off the final turn and not DRS as suggested?

it was shown on the live feed on Alonso's onboard, with graphics of his and Rosberg's speed, KERS etc, his DRS was activated right after the last turn, then deactivated around the activation point. my best guess would be that he/it accidentally activated (it), and Alonso didn't realize that, and tried to open it at the activation point, but by pushing the button, he closed it. after that they were shown from the end of the straight, and Alonso had his wing open again, so I guess it was closed for only 1-2 sec.
I will post screenshots later, if you guys/girls insist.

[ApexMouse]

Is there some external view of this, or did he perhaps just use all of his KERS off the final turn and not DRS as suggested?

Just to back up what zava is saying. I have the video of the race and he opens it right on corner exit (steering wheel light red, DRS graphic onscreen) then shuts it briefly about halfway down the straight. You can see his his hand move when he goes over the drs line and realizes he's already activated it.

[Zava]

[as65p]

More like being taken away what they´ve just gained. He didn´t lift, brake early, or do anything to give it back. He even moved to cover at one point. He just got repassed because he cleared Nico so soon down the straight that he gave him a huge close slipstream.

Makes no difference to the stewarding. Advantage gained by an outside the rules manouver, advantage lost again / given back / whatever seconds later, no investigation, no penalty, end of. That's how it's usually handled, and in this case too.

There can be no conclusions drawn as to if, or how, the stewards will police improper DRS use, as clearly the driver gained no significant advantage out of it, so it was ignored. Again, just like leaving the track or cutting a corner with no advantage gained is usually ignored, unless a driver cuts the same corner 4 or 5 times in a row.

[CrucialXtreme]

I'm not saying Fernando did or didn't open the DRS early. It looked like he got a good run on ROS, but he closed on him really quick. I'm not getting into any particulars, I'm only saying that the on-screen graphic isn't always correct. There's video footage of Fernando & other drivers making damn near an entire lap in AUS with the DRS open(according to on-screen graphic) but the graphic was wrong and the DRS wasn't open. There have been issues all season with FIA telemetry, on-screen graphic are no different.

[Shiroo]

I'm not saying Fernando did or didn't open the DRS early. It looked like he got a good run on ROS, but he closed on him really quick. I'm not getting into any particulars, I'm only saying that the on-screen graphic isn't always correct. There's video footage of Fernando & other drivers making damn near an entire lap in AUS with the DRS open(according to on-screen graphic) but the graphic was wrong and the DRS wasn't open. There have been issues all season with FIA telemetry, on-screen graphic are no different.

this
as it was mentioend, they cant even deny using DRS nowdays during a race if yellow flags appear. and I already saw similar thing where someone had marked on on-screen graphic that his DRS is open, while he was driving with closed

[apexpredator]

Can somebody clarify, I thought Ferrari's DRS was activated with a 3rd pedal (as shown by those illustrations that came out for the F2012) and not a steering wheel button?

If it is activated by a 3rd pedal then I imagine it would be common practice for Alonso to step on the pedal as soon as a long-straight starts so that it opens immediately at the activation point to avoid any (all be it momentary) delay. Passing the point with the pedal already engaged would be faster than waiting to engage it at the activation point.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Hi guys. I'm a new member here, and thought i'd introduce myself here seeing as i've been a Ferrari fan since i started watching F1 (mid 90s).

Was very disappointed with Bahrain. The race promised so much, especially after our strong qualifying and practice pace.

However i'm now looking forward to Barcelona. Bahrain was hot and a rear limited track which suited Red Bull more than us (yet in terms of pace we were still right up there). Barcelona should be cooler and is a front limited track. I suspect we will see lots of graining as we did in China. I believe this track and the conditions should suit us well, but we have to be wary of other teams (particularly Mclaren) bringing a large update. In addition, Alonso is very good at this track ( i know he is good everywhere, but there are some tracks he is particularly good at, and I believe this is one of them). We really need a win, or at least to finish ahead of Vettel, to keep ourselves in the championship.

[kosmos]

Can somebody clarify, I thought Ferrari's DRS was activated with a 3rd pedal (as shown by those illustrations that came out for the F2012) and not a steering wheel button?

If it is activated by a 3rd pedal then I imagine it would be common practice for Alonso to step on the pedal as soon as a long-straight starts so that it opens immediately at the activation point to avoid any (all be it momentary) delay. Passing the point with the pedal already engaged would be faster than waiting to engage it at the activation point.

Yep, it's a pedal.




@TheThirdTenor1 Welcome

[Goron3]

Hi guys. I'm a new member here, and thought i'd introduce myself here seeing as i've been a Ferrari fan since i started watching F1 (mid 90s).

Was very disappointed with Bahrain. The race promised so much, especially after our strong qualifying and practice pace.

However i'm now looking forward to Barcelona. Bahrain was hot and a rear limited track which suited Red Bull more than us (yet in terms of pace we were still right up there). Barcelona should be cooler and is a front limited track. I suspect we will see lots of graining as we did in China. I believe this track and the conditions should suit us well, but we have to be wary of other teams (particularly Mclaren) bringing a large update. In addition, Alonso is very good at this track ( i know he is good everywhere, but there are some tracks he is particularly good at, and I believe this is one of them). We really need a win, or at least to finish ahead of Vettel, to keep ourselves in the championship.

Welcome! And yes I agree with you on Spain, it should be strong for us Alonso has had some mighty starts there as well, particuarly 2011 and 2012

[repete]

this
as it was mentioend, they cant even deny using DRS nowdays during a race if yellow flags appear. and I already saw similar thing where someone had marked on on-screen graphic that his DRS is open, while he was driving with closed

I have seen situations like yours before also, but this was not one of them. You don't catch someone like they are standing still in this era of near "spec" f1 engines. KERS wouldn't do that by itself. You can also see the rear end do a lil twich while coming on to the front strait when the DRS opens.

[JeanTodt86]

Few days ago, Ferrari has done some aerodynamic tests. Does anyone have any information on what exactly they tested.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Welcome! And yes I agree with you on Spain, it should be strong for us Alonso has had some mighty starts there as well, particuarly 2011 and 2012

Yep His qualifying performance was great in those 2 years too!

[Skinnyguy]

Makes no difference to the stewarding. Advantage gained by an outside the rules manouver, advantage lost again / given back / whatever seconds later, no investigation, no penalty, end of. That's how it's usually handled, and in this case too.

It´s not really common thing to do. Example: If a driver passes in a wrong way another guy, and the other guy retires inmediately, common procedure is to still punish him despite there was no gain in the end.

The current stewarding on DRS is mostly down to the telemetry issues. And think it´s the right thing to do. But no, this is no how it´s usually handled. If you pass a guy illegally and you then go off seconds later and lose the place, you´ll most likely still get toasted.

[Skinnyguy]

I'm not saying Fernando did or didn't open the DRS early. It looked like he got a good run on ROS, but he closed on him really quick. I'm not getting into any particulars, I'm only saying that the on-screen graphic isn't always correct. There's video footage of Fernando & other drivers making damn near an entire lap in AUS with the DRS open(according to on-screen graphic) but the graphic was wrong and the DRS wasn't open. There have been issues all season with FIA telemetry, on-screen graphic are no different.

You´re right about the graphs being not 100% accurate, but anyone familiar with the series will inmediately tell watching a video if the sort of speed advantage gained is "natural" or down to DRS.

This case is no different, even without the graph everyone would have thought that either Rosberg had lost gears/power or Alonso had his DRS opened.

[mattferg]

Makes no difference to the stewarding. Advantage gained by an outside the rules manouver, advantage lost again / given back / whatever seconds later, no investigation, no penalty, end of. That's how it's usually handled, and in this case too.

There can be no conclusions drawn as to if, or how, the stewards will police improper DRS use, as clearly the driver gained no significant advantage out of it, so it was ignored. Again, just like leaving the track or cutting a corner with no advantage gained is usually ignored, unless a driver cuts the same corner 4 or 5 times in a row.

Scenario: Webber smashes into Alonso's front wing when he's leading, so Alonso has to pit and Webber leads, but then his car fails and he DNFs. No grid penalty for next race because the 'advantage gained' from an outside the rules manoeuvre was nullified by his DNF? xD

[ForeverF1]

Scenario: Webber smashes into Alonso's front wing when he's leading, so Alonso has to pit and Webber leads, but then his car fails and he DNFs. No grid penalty for next race because the 'advantage gained' from an outside the rules manoeuvre was nullified by his DNF? xD

When, if, it happens, then it would be a topic to discuss. However, it has 'f' all to do with the F138.

[Seanspeed]

We really need a win, or at least to finish ahead of Vettel, to keep ourselves in the championship.

First off, welcome!

Anyways, we're only 30 points behind Vettel with 375 points left to play for. At this point, even a less-than-great result in Barcelona(say, a 4th or something) would keep us well within reach so long as the car is competitive. That last bit is important because it provides plenty of hope for recovery. Its when the car doesn't show great competitiveness that you really worry about getting behind because then your main hope comes from the competition failing rather than being able to grab the ideal results on your own.

[steferrari]

Its when the car doesn't show great competitiveness that you really worry about getting behind because then your main hope comes from the competition failing rather than being able to grab the ideal results on your own.

I agree.
To be honest I was more worried last year when we was leading but our points advantage was getting smaller and smaller after every race, rather than now with 30 points to recover, because I know that our car is strong.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Thanks for the welcome Sean. And yes, i agree, a 40+ points gap is still recoverable as long as the car is competitive (to the extent that it can string a number of wins together). Problem is when the gap is that big that the team becomes under huge pressure and there will be little margin for error.

[Seanspeed]

Thanks for the welcome Sean. And yes, i agree, a 40+ points gap is still recoverable as long as the car is competitive (to the extent that it can string a number of wins together). Problem is when the gap is that big that the team becomes under huge pressure and there will be little margin for error.

Yea, two disasters in the first 4 races definitely doesn't leave much more room for error, but its at least nice to have a driver that you can be confident in their ability to pull out a consistent campaign. Ferrari have been very good operational-wise, too. Bahrain was a bit an anomoly more than something we can expect in the future.

As it is, I think we're in a much better position right now than we were last year, despite the points situation. 15 faces left means we only have to score an average of 2 points per race more than Vettel. Super do-able. When that number gets to 5+, I'll be more concerned.

Edited by Seanspeed, 29 April 2013 - 21:41.

[solochamp07]

What's the purpose of that ring in between the suspension arms

To trap mischievous little finger boys, that's what.

[Spa]

Yea, two disasters in the first 4 races definitely doesn't leave much more room for error, but its at least nice to have a driver that you can be confident in their ability to pull out a consistent campaign. Ferrari have been very good operational-wise, too. Bahrain was a bit an anomoly more than something we can expect in the future.

As it is, I think we're in a much better position right now than we were last year, despite the points situation. 15 faces left means we only have to score an average of 2 points per race more than Vettel. Super do-able. When that number gets to 5+, I'll be more concerned.

+1.

What give me hope is that the F138 is very competitive and so far it has been there in all kind of tracks. If we manage to keep qualifying in the first two rows, I don't see why we shouldn't be fighting for both titles until the end...

Cheers! ;-)

Edited by Spa, 30 April 2013 - 09:04.

[V3TT3L]

Can somebody clarify, I thought Ferrari's DRS was activated with a 3rd pedal (as shown by those illustrations that came out for the F2012) and not a steering wheel button?

If it is activated by a 3rd pedal then I imagine it would be common practice for Alonso to step on the pedal as soon as a long-straight starts so that it opens immediately at the activation point to avoid any (all be it momentary) delay. Passing the point with the pedal already engaged would be faster than waiting to engage it at the activation point.

http://www.auto-moto...otoshow_item=11

Some graphic explanation about DRS activation.

[V3TT3L]

http://www.jamesalle...ure-in-bahrain/

In terms of its impact on Alonso’s race, he had already lost the initiative to Vettel on the opening lap, so was in chasing mode. But then the DRS jammed open on lap seven. Experts suggest that with the DRS stuck open the loss of downforce would be around 70 to 80 points of downforce. Alonso lost three seconds on lap 7 and then a further four seconds with it stuck open again on lap 8.

Not only did the wing not close, it went back into an “over centre” position.

3.18.1 of the Technical Regulations.
“The design is such that failure of the system will result in the uppermost
closed section returning to the normal high incidence position.”

[Afterburner]

Experts suggest that with the DRS stuck open the loss of downforce would be around 70 to 80 points of downforce.

WTF is a 'point' of downforce, anyway?

[Ravenak]

WTF is a 'point' of downforce, anyway?

You obviously didn't take economics in school: http://en.wikipedia....ercentage_point

[fdspd]

To have lost that much downforce and not spin out is amazing. Almost unbelievable. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that number. Losing 70 points of downforce results in only a 3 secs loss in performance? I imagined it would be a lot higher.

[KnucklesAgain]

You obviously didn't take economics in school: http://en.wikipedia....ercentage_point

Not so simple. http://www.formula1....11/6/12144.html

Paddy Lowe:

Q: Jenson Button has suggested you were ‘30 points’ behind Red Bull in terms of downforce and that it would take six or seven races to make up that deficit. Do you agree with that analysis and can you explain what ‘30 points’ means?

PL: A point is Formula One code for a hundredth of a fraction of ‘cl’, where ‘cl’ is the downforce coefficient. Physically a Formula One car has a downforce coefficient of let’s say 3 to 3.5. So 30 points would be 30 hundredths which would equate to 0.3. So 30 points might be getting on for 10 percent of the downforce on an F1 car and that could be worth about a second a lap. I don’t agree that we have that deficit to Red Bull. I think that we’ve been quicker than them in the last few races - in race trim. Our car’s actually outperforming them at that point of the weekend. Clearly in qualifying we’ve got quite a gap to make up. What exactly it is and how that advantage is gained by Red Bull we don’t know, but we’re working hard to find the performance, particularly in race conditions. I think we can play to our strengths and win races by being quicker on Sunday and having a good strategy.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 02 May 2013 - 06:29.

[Afterburner]

You obviously didn't take economics in school: http://en.wikipedia....ercentage_point

I did, actually, and to speak in F1 terms, it was always explained to me as '40% of the car's downforce', never '40 points of downforce'. I have only ever heard 'points' used in reference to a quantity in an index, and in my experience values in indexes do not always mirror percentages. Maybe it's a European thing. Or maybe I'm just an idiot (apparently more likely).

Not so simple. http://www.formula1....11/6/12144.html

Paddy Lowe:

This would be more in line with my understanding of the meaning of 'point', with the coefficient being an index in this case. I've been wondering about this ever since hearing Lewis and Jenson seemingly arbitrarily classifying rivals' aerodynamic components as being worth 'x points of downforce'. Thanks for the explanation.

[KnucklesAgain]

I did, actually, and to speak in F1 terms, it was always explained to me as '40% of the car's downforce', never '40 points of downforce'.

It's irrelevant for the downforce points discussion which I think Lowe explained well enough. But maybe it's worth pointing out that percentage and percentage point are different things.
A percentage is a number or ratio as a fraction of 100.
A percentage point is the unit for the arithmetic difference of two percentages.

(from the respective Wikipedia articles. The percentage point article has nice examples for why it's not the same)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 02 May 2013 - 20:25.

[TheThirdTenor1]

We've done a straight line test at Idiada:

http://www.f1passion...-di-barcellona/

No details on the updates though.

Also, F150 was spotted at Barcelona after Bahrain, with PDLR apparantly at the wheel:

[bonjon1979a]

We've done a straight line test at Idiada:

http://www.f1passion...-di-barcellona/

No details on the updates though.

Also, F150 was spotted at Barcelona after Bahrain, with PDLR apparantly at the wheel:

Is this a designated 'filming day'. Bit confused that they were testing on a track rather than constant radius/straightline...

[ApexMouse]

Its ferrari, they're obviously totally cheating as always with their International Assistance buddies.

Yes, it will be a filming day. You can film on any track you like.

[V3TT3L]

The moving - top ellement - of the rear wing seems to be much smaller.

[Frankbullitt]

Pretty sure thats the 2011 car, italian flag on the wing and no white/black accents.