2748 replies to this topic

[D.M.N.]

Adam Cooper ‏@adamcooperf1 11s
FIA confirms that the Mercedes/Pirelli case will go before the International Tribunal
9:44 PM - 5 Jun 13

Adam Cooper ‏@adamcooperf1 35s
Case against Ferrari is closed, meanwhile
9:45 PM - 5 Jun 13

Discussion continued from - http://forums.autosp...howtopic=186376

[halifaxf1fan]

Adam Cooper ‏@adamcooperf1 11s
FIA confirms that the Mercedes/Pirelli case will go before the International Tribunal
9:44 PM - 5 Jun 13

Discussion continued from - http://forums.autosp...howtopic=186376

Oh oh. This is not good for Merc.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 05 June 2013 - 20:47.

[Red17]

Is there any list of possible penalties?
Or the court just figures out the outcome on it's own?

[trogggy]

The Monaco Grand Prix Stewards raised in their report to the FIA an issue concerning a tyre testing session carried out by Pirelli with the participation of Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in Barcelona on 15-17 May 2013 (1).
The FIA requested clarifications from Pirelli and Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in this respect.
he FIA also asked questions to Scuderia Ferrari Team, which took part in a tyre testing with Pirelli in Barcelona on 23-24 April 2013.
The FIA requested all the other F1 Teams to provide the FIA with information they may have regarding any tests carried out by Pirelli during the 2013 season.
In the light of all the replies received and in view of the information gathered during this inquiry, the President of the FIA, acting as the FIA prosecuting body, has decided:
• To close the case as regard to Scuderia Ferrari Team considering that its participation in a tyre testing organized by Pirelli in Barcelona on 23-24 April 2013 using for this purpose a 2011 car is not deemed to contravene the applicable FIA rules.
• To bring the case concerning the tyre testing session carried out by Pirelli and Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in Barcelona on 15-17 May 2013 before the FIA International Tribunal because it results from the inquiry that the conditions of this testing may constitute a breach of the applicable FIA rules.
The FIA International Tribunal is called upon to make a decision in compliance with the FIA Judicial and Disciplinary Rules.

[HaydenFan]

All they'll find is that Pirelli is at fault. And outside of a fine, what could they do to Pirelli? Allow a non-Mercedes test?

I find this discussion to be the best of a condensed talk of the facts and the events that occurred.

http://youtu.be/eGM650R74QA?t=1m1s

[PoleMan]

Case against Ferrari closed, eh? Seems to back up the arguments several made here that the Corse Clienti test with a 2 year old car was only being used as a reference to highlight how egregious the suspected rulebreaking by Merc and Pirelli was, in contrast.

Won't be long before conspiracy theorists invoke the current head of the FIA and his past relationship with a certain Red team as the reason for the Ferrari inquest to end.

Not going to pre-judge the outcome, but I think Mercedes and Pirelli will need arguments as creative as some of the posters to avoid being sanctioned by the governing body.

[scheivlak]

All they'll find is that Pirelli is at fault. And outside of a fine, what could they do to Pirelli? Allow a non-Mercedes test?

Let's see if we suddenly find Michelin interested after all in some F1 commitment

[halifaxf1fan]

Is there any list of possible penalties?
Or the court just figures out the outcome on it's own?

I think it will be an amount of money ....... $10M, $25M ........... something like that.

[SamH123]

I hope they are not suspended from any races...

[Fastcake]

Is there any list of possible penalties?
Or the court just figures out the outcome on it's own?

Anything from a "naughty naughty, don't do that again" to being thrown out of the sport.

Seems natural it would go before the tribunal as it's an extraordinarily complex issue after all. I still suspect very little but proper transparent rules concerning Pirelli's tyre testing coming into effect.

[Longtimefan]

I hope they are not suspended from any races...

I hope they are suspended or a loss of constructors points for this season.

Lets be honest here, a fine would be a joke. Which team in the paddock wouldn't LOVE to pay a fine to get the advantage Merc got.

I don't agree with taking the driver points away but if theres no ban then imo they should remove some or all constructor points.

[EthanM]

Let's see if we suddenly find Michelin interested after all in some F1 commitment

There is a rumor that Michelin took "a number" of meetings with teams over May

But do keep in mind, it is Mercedes that is referred to the international tribunal, not Pirelli. Pirelli is a supplier, the International Tribunal has no jurisdiction over it.

[Sakae]

Ouch.

[Les]

I'm not sure why Ferrari ever had a case to answer not that it matters now.

Anyway, surely F1 risks losing Mercedes and/or Pirelli if sanctions are made and surely F1 can't afford to lose either at the moment. However from a sporting perspective if they broke the rules then the law should be applied so its a tough one to call, glad it isn't my call!

[garoidb]

I hope they are suspended or a loss of constructors points for this season.

Lets be honest here, a fine would be a joke. Which team in the paddock wouldn't LOVE to pay a fine to get the advantage Merc got.

I don't agree with taking the driver points away but if theres no ban then imo they should remove some or all constructor points.

If a competitive advantage was gained, from which the drivers would benefit, what is the rationale for not deducting driver points?

[Sin]

I think the fairest for everyone would be to give the other teams test time in current cars too... what kind of punishment I'm not too sure..

[Longtimefan]

If a competitive advantage was gained, from which the drivers would benefit, what is the rationale for not deducting driver points?

I guess that's a good point, fair enough.

[Nomore]

My bet :

2 race ban for Mercedes + 10M $

No test with 2013 cars for other teams

[garoidb]

I guess that's a good point, fair enough.

I can't see them wanting to revisit the Monaco GP win, but points deductions would be possible. Mind you, a slap on the wrist is also perfectly possible.

[SchumiBoy]

My bet :

2 race ban for Mercedes + 10M $

No test with 2013 cars for other teams

It's going to be more.
3-5 races.

[jrg19]

The implosion in here when nothing happens.

[olliek88]

The final decision to refer Mercedes to the Tribunal and to drop Ferrari's case was made by........Jean Todt.

Just saying.

[scheivlak]

There is a rumor that Michelin took "a number" of meetings with teams over May

But do keep in mind, it is Mercedes that is referred to the international tribunal, not Pirelli. Pirelli is a supplier, the International Tribunal has no jurisdiction over it.

I'm not so sure about that, because that would mean that Pirelli could do what they want - like openly helping one team against another - without any sanction from the IT. That would sound strange to me.
The text of the official statement BTW tells us that the FIA has decided "To bring the case concerning the tyre testing session carried out by Pirelli and Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in Barcelona on 15-17 May 2013 before the FIA International Tribunal because it results from the inquiry that the conditions of this testing may constitute a breach of the applicable FIA rules."

So Pirelli seems to be included as a partner responsible for the test.

Edited by scheivlak, 05 June 2013 - 21:18.

[swerved]

As much as i dont begrudge Rosberg his win both drivers should lose points, the team should lose WCC points, and a fine/ban should be applied, If they're found guilty of cheating, which i hope they are, as it seems they did.

[Mc_Silver]

I think Mercedes could face exclusion from WCC points at least

[Nomore]

another bet from me :

This thread will reach 4 000 comments before IT gives the verdict....

[V3TT3L]

Mercedes ... what are they thinking... the name is FiA, not MiA.

[jrg19]

another bet from me :

This thread will reach 4 000 comments before IT gives the verdict....

Yup, with rehashed arguments page after page, probably with the conclusion that it's Lewis' fault.

[Fastcake]

I hope they are suspended or a loss of constructors points for this season.

Lets be honest here, a fine would be a joke. Which team in the paddock wouldn't LOVE to pay a fine to get the advantage Merc got.

I don't agree with taking the driver points away but if theres no ban then imo they should remove some or all constructor points.

They wouldn't be able to, as the FIA is almost certain to properly clarify the rules relating to tyre testing so this situation doesn't occur again.

The implosion in here when nothing happens.

I am quite prepared for that.

[FLB]

Won't be long before conspiracy theorists invoke the current head of the FIA and his past relationship with a certain Red team as the reason for the Ferrari inquest to end.

It probably doesn't make any difference to Todt whether we're talking about Ferrari or Mercedes, as
one of the current bosses of the Silver Arrows had a pretty long and successful working relationship with him.

In other words, I assume if there were any bodies burried by Todt during his Ferrari years, Ross Brawn would know about them.

[CHIUNDA]

I'm not sure why Ferrari ever had a case to answer not that it matters now.

Anyway, surely F1 risks losing Mercedes and/or Pirelli if sanctions are made and surely F1 can't afford to lose either at the moment. However from a sporting perspective if they broke the rules then the law should be applied so its a tough one to call, glad it isn't my call!

If the Mercedes Board has been looking for an excuse to get out of Formula 1, this case must one of the best. Maybe joining Mercedes was Lewis's worst career move ever.

[EthanM]

I'm not so sure about that, because that would mean that Pirelli could do what they want - like openly helping one team against another - without any sanction from the IT. That would sound strange to me.
The text of the official statement BTW tells us that the FIA has decided "To bring the case concerning the tyre testing session carried out by Pirelli and Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in Barcelona on 15-17 May 2013 before the FIA International Tribunal because it results from the inquiry that the conditions of this testing may constitute a breach of the applicable FIA rules."

So Pirelli seems to be included as a partner responsible for the test.

http://www.fia.com/s...idictionnel.pdf

Article 8.1
Persons under the IT’s jurisdiction

The IT determines alleged infringements and offences referred to in Article 8.2 and allegedly committed by the following persons and organisations, whatever form they may take:
a) FIA Members;
b) the officers, members, or licence holders of ASNs, or officers, members, or licence holders of ACNs involved in motor sport;
c) officials, organisers, drivers, competitors and licence holders;
d) persons having access to premises hosting any event that is subject to the regulations and decisions of the FIA;
e) any person who is subject to or who has agreed to be bound by the International Sporting Code and the other regulations and decisions of the FIA;
f) and in general, any person who benefits, in any manner whatsoever, from an authorisation or approval issued on behalf of or by the FIA, or who takes part in any manner whatsoever in a race, competition or other event organised, directly or indirectly, by the FIA or subject to the regulations and decisions of the FIA;
g) the employees, representatives, agents and service providers of the persons listed above, irrespective of any liability of those who employ them or are represented by them,and of the possibility of prosecuting those persons or bodies . Nevertheless, members of the FIA have an exclusive competence to decide whether or not to prosecute and to impose sanctions for offences and infringements referred to in Article 8.2 on their employees, representatives, agents and service providers unless these persons, in another capacity , fall directly under the jurisdiction of the IT according to Article 8.1 b) to f).

[fabr68]

The final decision to refer Mercedes to the Tribunal and to drop Ferrari's case was made by........Jean Todt.

Just saying.

Yeah, how biased. He cannot see that Mercedes testing their 2013 car with the two official drivers is exactly the same as Corsa Clienti testimg the 2011 car with one test driver.

[dau]

The final decision to refer Mercedes to the Tribunal and to drop Ferrari's case was made by........Jean Todt.

Just saying.

So?

[rasul]

If a competitive advantage was gained, from which the drivers would benefit, what is the rationale for not deducting driver points?

Agreed.

But if they are proven guilty, a 3-5 race ban would be sufficient enough I think.

[Cavani]

it will be a financial fine , interms of millions , I have sources

[Rikhart]

This could be the straw that makes mercedes hightail it out of F1!

[P123]

Yeah, how biased. He cannot see that Mercedes testing their 2013 car with the two official drivers is exactly the same as Corsa Clienti testimg the 2011 car with one test driver.

Yeah we know they were different, but different does not automatically mean the Ferrari test was all above board.

[Sakae]

Lowe: WTF am I getting into?

[P123]

Yup, with rehashed arguments page after page, probably with the conclusion that it's Lewis' fault.

Thankfully he didn't win in Monaco.

As for Merc, at the very least they are looking at a fine, unless they can get very creative with the reasoning behind running a 2013 car.

[scheivlak]

http://www.fia.com/s...idictionnel.pdf

Well, I'm not a lawyer but to me Pirelli might be called a "service provider", certainly in this case.

Edited by scheivlak, 05 June 2013 - 21:32.

[olliek88]

Yeah, how biased. He cannot see that Mercedes testing their 2013 car with the two official drivers is exactly the same as Corsa Clienti testimg the 2011 car with one test driver.

So?

At no point did i imply bias, nor do i believe there was any. Merely pointing out a fact that will undoubtedly get jumped on by some.

No more, no less.

[JRizzle86]

it will be a financial fine , interms of millions , I have sources

Ketchup?

[dau]

This could be the straw that makes mercedes hightail it out of F1!

Yea, that's going to look brilliant. Merc leaving after being convicted for circumventing testing rules. They say every publicity is good publicity though...

[Timstr11]

This whole testing saga is totally not worth the fuss. A big deal made out of something that has no real or little benefit for Mercedes in my opinion.
A lesson for whoever at Mercedes pushed through this test.

I can only hope that Mercedes have found a loophole in the regulation which they are normally quite good at.
Certainly the wording of the FIA statement shows even they are not sure it was a breach.

Edited by Timstr11, 05 June 2013 - 21:37.

[oetzi]

Which team in the paddock wouldn't LOVE to pay a fine to get the advantage Merc got.

If they wanted to retain 'sporting integrity' (stop sniggering!) and make sure everyone knew it wasn't worthwhile trying a stunt like this in future, they could fine Mercedes all their prize money for this year and the proportion of it that this year's results contributed towards it until it didn't any more.

A lot of money and a long, smelly trail of consequence.

If I were Mercedes, I'd take a two race ban rather than that.

As mentioned, nothing that severe is likely. Can't afford to upset the paying guests, after all.

[HaydenFan]

The tribunal will find Mercedes did nothing wrong. Unless they are sliding some money under the table to Pirelli for the test, but I don't see that happening at this level without it coming out very quickly.

[halifaxf1fan]

The implosion in here when nothing happens.

Are there many Germans on the tribunal?

[Lamag]

My bet :

2 race ban for Mercedes + 10M $

No test with 2013 cars for other teams

Just like the FIA did back in 2007 with the Spygate? Keep dreaming my friend

[oetzi]

Maybe joining Mercedes was Lewis's worst career move ever.

How utterly irrelevant.