708 replies to this topic

[Diablobb81]

Big money problems at Sauber. Nico, suppliers, weren't paid, development stopped due to lack of funds.

They hope for some Gazprom money.

Kaltenborn acknowledges problems but says they will finish the season.


http://www.bild.de/s...51290.bild.html

http://www.blick.ch/...-id2355971.html

Edited by Diablobb81, 30 June 2013 - 11:59.

[Vesuvius]

So Sauber is in huge money trouble and not to be in F1 next year is close, really bad news.

[ApexMouse]

Oh no way! Even with the telmex money!? Hopefully someone will throw them a bone.

[wj_gibson]

Marussia and Lotus not far behind in the "financially struggling" stakes by the look of it.

And Williams can't be far of feither.

It is only Mateschitz's keen interestin F1 that keeps RBR and STR in the game, funded as handsomely as they are.

It is only Mallaya that keeps Force India involved.

This is a particualrly fragile period for F1 teams. No one is available to take the slots of any of these teams if they fold.

[Wingcommander]

I was ready to bash Gutierrez at the start of the season, but he's been better than what i expected. He's not that far off Hulk's pace. The car is quite bad. They're fighting with Williams, and in a normal race dont seem to have any chance of scoring points. Apart from Malaysia and China, Hulk has been quite invisible aswell. There just isnt enough pace in the car and they have lost the tyre advantage they had for a couple of years. If they have stopped developing their car, then the rest of the year will be the same it's been so far.

If the rumours about Sauber's financial situation are true, then i'm quite worried about their future and the future of smaller teams in F1 in general.

[sopa]

I heard Kobayashi managed to gather quite a few millions together last year in search for money. How many millions does Gutierrez bring? Maybe Koba wasn't that less behind in sponsorship stakes and they could have kept him, while he would be doing his usual attractive driving and making Sauber a more attractive team through that as well. But if Sauber's money-situation is that bad, then you can't help it that they had to take Gutierrez even if he brings just a couple of millions more. Every penny counts at Sauber now.

[SUPRAF1]

And to think Hulkenberg left Force India for financial reasons (allegedly) .

[artista]

I admit, I got very worried when I watched Kaltenborn's interview on RTL this weekend. Of course, she said they think could turn better, but it's not usual to see a team boss admitting that plain and openly that they are in a difficult situation.

I just hope they find a way to keep on going, they are a really nice bunch of people

[P123]

Oh no way! Even with the telmex money!? Hopefully someone will throw them a bone.

They've not got a huge presence on the car so I doubt that the Telmex money goes very far. Probably standard pay driver money of a few million.

[pingu666]

And to think Hulkenberg left Force India for financial reasons (allegedly) .

late wage payments algeidly :\

telmex money may well be heading to macca with perez anyways

[discover23]

That team is too small to compete by itself at the level of Mclaren/RedBull/Ferrari without a major partnership.

[Bloggsworth]

For the good of motor-racing F1 needs to collapse in on its own greed.

[Ross Stonefeld]

If F1 suddenly disappeared the other series wouldn't pick up their fans, they'd just stop watching entirely. If you don't like Indycar/MotoGP/touring cars now, you won't later either.

[hotstickyslick]

If F1 suddenly disappeared the other series wouldn't pick up their fans, they'd just stop watching entirely. If you don't like Indycar/MotoGP/touring cars now, you won't later either.

Yep. Motorsport as it is now is in a very precarious situation and, if all the wrong things happen at the right time, could actually for the most part die out.

[SophieB]

Monisha Kaltenborn talked about F1 finances in general terms in an interview with the official F1 website last week:

Monisha Kaltenborn Q&A: Sauber will turn the corner

... and signed off with this:

Q: Sauber have always managed to turn the corner, even when things have looked grim. When and where will that corner be?
MK: It will be there - it’s difficult to say when and where, but it is coming.

I really do hope so.

[Watkins74]

Yep. Motorsport as it is now is in a very precarious situation and, if all the wrong things happen at the right time, could actually for the most part die out.

What??? Sauber goes under and Motorsports dies? Are you crazy? Teams come and go. Life and racing goes on.

I have been watching F1 for decades and every year I hear it's to expensive and will collapse, yet the sport is bigger than ever.

[Jovanotti]

Apparently, the development of the C32 has been stopped, and rumours suggest that Hülkenberg has cancelled his contract to be available if other teams are interested.

It is very clear that something has to change regarding costs and financial support the smaller teams receive. Teams with smaller budgets have to be able to compete in the series on a reasonable basis.

Regarding Sauber, better retiring from F1 than become the new toy of some rich Russian prick, or return to other series (WEC) if you ask me.

[BoschKurve]

If F1 suddenly disappeared the other series wouldn't pick up their fans, they'd just stop watching entirely. If you don't like Indycar/MotoGP/touring cars now, you won't later either.

Sad, but true.

If F1 disappeared, I'd certainly be disappointed, but other race series out there are quite fun to watch.

[pingu666]

i think other series would get a bump, but there would be a net loss

but would gp2 become a thing, or die ?

[hotstickyslick]

What??? Sauber goes under and Motorsports dies? Are you crazy? Teams come and go. Life and racing goes on.

I have been watching F1 for decades and every year I hear it's to expensive and will collapse, yet the sport is bigger than ever.

Way to put words into my mouth. When did I mention Sauber specifically?

F1 has been going on for how many years? Not that long at all. Nothing lasts forever. If today's fans of motorsport are becoming alienated, where will the new generation come from?

[sopa]

Apparently, the development of the C32 has been stopped, and rumours suggest that Hülkenberg has cancelled his contract to be available if other teams are interested.

It's seriously that bad? And for how long was Hulk's contract? For 2013 only or beyond this year?

What about the development of C33? Teams are simultaneously working on two different cars anyway. Especially in the middle of the year.

[Petroltorque]

Of course Sauber are in trouble. Factor in Bernie only wants 10 teams and you see the problem. The fact that they lost design staff without replacing them is a bad sign. They will also get less money this season as a result of poor performance. Ecclestone joked that he could give every team an extra $20 million but they would only waste it but that money would be mannah for Sauber.

Edited by Petroltorque, 02 July 2013 - 18:35.

[Collective]

They've not got a huge presence on the car so I doubt that the Telmex money goes very far. Probably standard pay driver money of a few million.

The big Claro sign is Telmex money.

[Sakae]

Just one more reason to change whole business model of F1, run it as two-tiers series on two different regulatory sheets, reduce its size, or close the door. F1 is not for everyone, so much is obvious for quite some time. Manufacturers need to return, and re-erect GP racing.

[ApexMouse]

They caused the massive budget problems in the first place...

[SamH123]

What happened to Sauber this year?
Did they do a Mclaren and try and build a car that 'had more potential' or just not improve their car as much over the winter as the other teams?

Sad they're struggling

re: F1 dying, if F1 is the premium formula can it really die? There will always be one, if costs spiralled too much it could just become a spec series

[Sakae]

They caused the massive budget problems in the first place...

I beg to disagree. Problem was created when F1 was sold to CVC and alike, instead of sporting enthusiasts with taste for motorsport. You need a club like owners of baseball or NFL who dream, bleed and live their game, instead bunch of whatever...

[Gilles4Ever]

The topic is Sauber and rumours of their financial problems

[onewingedangel]

Sauber needs a major/title sponsor and a technical/engine partner.

Audi already use the Sauber windtunnel for their LMP programme so should know the teams resources well, but VW don't seem interested in F1.

Perhaps if the Ford rumours pan out we could see Sauber as the Ford works team once again.

[ensign14]

I beg to disagree. Problem was created when F1 was sold to CVC and alike, instead of sporting enthusiasts with taste for motorsport. You need a club like owners of baseball or NFL who dream, bleed and live their game, instead bunch of whatever...

The teams could have bid for sport ownership. Well, they might have been able to do so, had Max not done a sweetheart deal for Bernie...

And of course ultimately the fault lies with the EU, but one expects little else.

[Sin]

What happened to Sauber this year?
Did they do a Mclaren and try and build a car that 'had more potential' or just not improve their car as much over the winter as the other teams?

Sad they're struggling

re: F1 dying, if F1 is the premium formula can it really die? There will always be one, if costs spiralled too much it could just become a spec series

Sauber are basically like McLaren... with their new car... new different design and all... difference is McLaren got more money

[nosecone]

Sauber needs a major/title sponsor and a technical/engine partner.

Audi already use the Sauber windtunnel for their LMP programme so should know the teams resources well, but VW don't seem interested in F1.

Perhaps if the Ford rumours pan out we could see Sauber as the Ford works team once again.

Sauber has to rent their windtunnel due to the financial trouble. Someone on tv said that this isn't good for the speed of the car but good for their moneybag.

There is seriously something wrong in F1 - in 2012 Lotus made their record loss. F1 is nothing with only 5 Teams, FiA!

For next year it will be even more expensive to participate in F1. Maybe FiA shouldn't have allowed Heat-Recovery systems or whatever they use. The motors alone are expensice enough and for some teams even too expensive, even though i can understand people who want to see innovative technologies in F1, but maybe they should have delayed the introduction of some innovative technologies.

Ok that was far too much off-topic now. Apologizes for that

[mattferg]

BMW, Porsche, VW/Audi, Ford, Toyota.

All big names who've been involved with F1 before, with the exception of VW/Audio I believe. It's time they came back to save the teams they left behind.

Edited by mattferg, 02 July 2013 - 19:45.

[discover23]

There are two sides of the coin here and people never seem to be happy.
You can have a budget cap, which was something that they were pushing for a few years ago to somehow try and level set the playing field and give the smaller teams a better chance, but of course this was something that the big teams were against because they all want unlimited testing, unlimited development, unlimited spending....

[HaydenFan]

I beg to disagree. Problem was created when F1 was sold to CVC and alike, instead of sporting enthusiasts with taste for motorsport. You need a club like owners of baseball or NFL who dream, bleed and live their game, instead bunch of whatever...

But like the NFL, like MLB, you need a structure which benefits the teams across the board, not just the league/series. F1 and the systems in place are the wrong way. Money given to the teams by the sanctioning body in other team sports is still structured around the success of a team, but in those sports, that money keeps each and every team afloat. You think the Oakland Raiders or Detroit Lions (even with their Ford backing) would still be playing if not for the league forking out huge amounts of tv money? Hell no! Same with F1, why does the management of the sport think the bottom teams will succeed (or just survive) when the sport takes so much money in, yet gives little back to operate. F1 makes enough money that if divided more fairly, each team should at least have enough to make it through a season without dropping their level of competitiveness. It is the responsibility of F1 to take care of their teams. That is why FOTA fails greatly. They say they look out for their members, but at the end of the day, each team gives little care for their competitors. Which is what I never felt in the lower ranks of karting and junior formula, nor around the paddock of other major series. The teams might see other teams as on-track rivals, but their is a brotherhood between them off the track.

F1's problem is that the sport is run by businessmen, not sportsman. Those at the top are thinking about making a profit for the season, how results equal more money for the investors. Not results equal more money to develop the car for later in the season, or next season. Why is Lotus still in the same hole they were last year? Genii and Eric Lux and Gerard Lopez see the team as an investment. Get some results and resell down the road. They sold part already, and probably more than made a profit. But I doubt this sale will trickle down to the race track.

[SophieB]

As warned already, this thread is about Sauber, folks. Please keep it specific.

[MikeV1987]

It's time for VW to take over.

Edited by MikeV1987, 02 July 2013 - 19:58.

[Zoe]

If F1 suddenly disappeared the other series wouldn't pick up their fans, they'd just stop watching entirely. If you don't like Indycar/MotoGP/touring cars now, you won't later either.

Just imagine how much free time I would have on Sundays then....

Zoe

[Fastcake]

I didn't know the financial situation at Sauber was quite that precarious, looks like they need some serious money. Where has the shortfall suddenly come from over the past year, is that all down to Perez leaving the team? With the money from their results last year and Telmax paying for Guiterrez's seat, you would of thought they would be stable.

[chrisj]

If F1 suddenly disappeared the other series wouldn't pick up their fans, they'd just stop watching entirely. If you don't like Indycar/MotoGP/touring cars now, you won't later either.

Not sure if this exactly proves your point, but I quit watching F1 and now basically only watch MotoGP.

[ensign14]

BMW, Porsche, VW/Audi, Ford, Toyota.

All big names who've been involved with F1 before, with the exception of VW/Audio I believe. It's time they came back to save the teams they left behind.

Thing is, Williams have been in F1 since 1970, McLaren since before (in current incarnation since 1981), Lotus since 1981, Sauber since 1991, Toro Rosso since 1985; and they have no other business at all. They are all about racing, so they will stay in racing. They won't walk away, despite the sort of provocation Mosley inflicted on McLaren in particular.

The only manufacturer that has had any longevity in F1 are Ferrari and Ford - and even then the road car side of Ferrari is an offshoot of the racing, and Ford were sponsors rather than actual participants.

For the others, they come in, and if they win they withdraw so they don't get beaten, and if they lose they withdraw because they're not winning.

[noikeee]

I would expect Hulk to be replaced by a wealthy paydriver before they go under. It's probably a pretty bad situation for Monisha to openly admit it, but until that happens it's not reached desperate levels yet.

Edited by noikeee, 02 July 2013 - 20:33.

[F1ultimate]

With the money from their results last year and Telmax paying for Guiterrez's seat, you would of thought they would be stable.

I would have thought the same. However 2014 is around the corner which has shifted F1 in favour of the wealthy teams with funds to hire enough technical directors to be able to develop 2013 and 2014 cars without any compromise. It doesn't help that Mercedes, Ferrari and Mclaren are absorbing every technical talent they fancy.

If Sauber is struggling for funds this year I cannot see better fortunes for them next year unless rivals struggle even more. I'm terribly gutted for Hulkenberg.

[One]

What happened to Sauber this year?
Did they do a Mclaren and try and build a car that 'had more potential' or just not improve their car as much over the winter as the other teams?

Sad they're struggling

re: F1 dying, if F1 is the premium formula can it really die? There will always be one, if costs spiralled too much it could just become a spec series

Very good point. It seems to me that Sauber was not to keen on evolution, chose way for revolution, which in most case is riskier and costly. In a way they took enough chance by changing two drivers at once as well. This radical change was Un-Sauber-esque move to me.

Never the less, it was done.

TIme to look for a new Oil money?

[F1ultimate]

In a way they took enough chance by changing two drivers at once as well. This radical change was Un-Sauber-esque move to me.

Never the less, it was done.

TIme to look for a new Oil money?

The drivers are not to blame for Sauber's underperformance this year. Hulkenberg was virtually neck-to-neck with Perez in topping the midfield last year. He's dragged the car to collect 6 point so far this season. The car is bad, really bad. Williams have suffered the same slump from last year but Maldonado who even won a race last year hasn't been able to score any points. If anything, Sauber has let Hulkenberg down.

Btw, has Hulkenberg brought any sponsors to the team?

[charly0418]

Wouldnt be surprised if they drop Hulk and got someone like Nasr to survive like Marussia did with Glock

Real shame

[charly0418]

The drivers are not to blame for Sauber's underperformance this year. Hulkenberg was virtually neck-to-neck with Perez in topping the midfield last year. He's dragged the car to collect 6 point so far this season. The car is bad, really bad. Williams have suffered the same slump from last year but Maldonado who even won a race last year hasn't been able to score any points. If anything, Sauber has let Hulkenberg down.

Btw, has Hulkenberg brought any sponsors to the team?

not 1 major sponsor

[charly0418]

I didn't know the financial situation at Sauber was quite that precarious, looks like they need some serious money. Where has the shortfall suddenly come from over the past year, is that all down to Perez leaving the team? With the money from their results last year and Telmax paying for Guiterrez's seat, you would of thought they would be stable.

Telmex money is only around 10 million, to put that into context, Vodafone is paying around 80 mill to McLaren. That's why I highly doubt Telmex will be McLarens new sponsor... but thats a different topic

[Dunder]

This is pretty worrying TBH.

Would be interested to see how budgets have progressed since Mosley's cost cap proposal and the advent of the RRA.

[mattferg]

Thing is, Williams have been in F1 since 1970, McLaren since before (in current incarnation since 1981), Lotus since 1981, Sauber since 1991, Toro Rosso since 1985; and they have no other business at all. They are all about racing, so they will stay in racing. They won't walk away, despite the sort of provocation Mosley inflicted on McLaren in particular.

The only manufacturer that has had any longevity in F1 are Ferrari and Ford - and even then the road car side of Ferrari is an offshoot of the racing, and Ford were sponsors rather than actual participants.

For the others, they come in, and if they win they withdraw so they don't get beaten, and if they lose they withdraw because they're not winning.

Except all have required big names to support them from going bust or to stay competitive. 'Lotus' (Enstone) with Renault, Toro Rosso (Minardi) with Red Bull and Sauber/Williams with BMW. It's time manufacturers came back and supported these teams, because if you look many have gone bust/closed. Arrows, original Lotus, Brabham. We almost lost Tyrrell (Brackley)

Edited by mattferg, 02 July 2013 - 23:37.