54 replies to this topic

[sblinx]

i read this morning on the 'Gazzetta dello Sport' that ferrari yesterday started testing with PdR and a 2011 car for three days
so is this fine with every team?

[akshay380]

i read this morning on the 'Gazzetta dello Sport' that ferrari yesterday started testing with PdR and a 2011 car for three days
so is this fine with every team?

IIRC, they have take necessary permission for FiA.

[Markn93]

It was fine, and a sensible way to see/work on the correlation between wind tunnel and track.

[sblinx]

i reading thru the article and they are saying that it will or might cause a stir!!
i know that they asked for permission but haven't the rules changed after the merc test??

[Tommay]

I believe it's a F2011 with 2013 parts. Personally I don't think this tests should be running if they are allowed to use 2013 parts, that is an unfair advantage.

[sblinx]

I believe it's a F2011 with 2013 parts. Personally I don't think this tests should be running if they are allowed to use 2013 parts, that is an unfair advantage.

hear hear

[jrg19]

Dont they only get the Pirelli demo tyres to do such runs?

[Gilles4Ever]

Dont they only get the Pirelli demo tyres to do such runs?

In this case yes because it's not a Pirelli test

[KWSN - DSM]

Since all teams are allowed to do the same, I have a hard time seeing how it is unfair.

[jstrains]

I am curious who will be the first to protest that it gave them some UNFAIR advantage to close the gap on others

Edited by jstrains, 31 July 2013 - 10:44.

[Clatter]

Is this straightline or track testing?

[Gilles4Ever]

I believe it's a F2011 with 2013 parts. Personally I don't think this tests should be running if they are allowed to use 2013 parts, that is an unfair advantage.

There a source for the use of 2013 parts? All I have seen is La Gazzetta dello Sport, reporting that Pedro de la Rosa is testing a 2011 car privately with demonstration tyres (not in conjunction with Pirelli) and El Mundo Deportivo reporting the aim is working to improve the correlation between the wind tunnel, the simulator and the track

[Ross Stonefeld]

Even though 2 year old cars are allowed, with demo tires, and etc; it still seems like a violation of the summer shut down. Or is this within the movable window all the teams have?

[Der Pate]

What happened to the rule, that the teams aren´t allowed to even e-mail during the summer break?

[Clatter]

I didn't know there was a window. I thought they all had to shutdown during the same period.

[Baddoer]

Well, 2011 car could be trimmed to 2013 downforce levels and engine maps. But suspension geometry of course not.

[Zava]

I didn't know there was a window. I thought they all had to shutdown during the same period.

last year it was 2 weeks of the four, and the teams could decide independently which 2 (consecutive) weeks.

[Gilles4Ever]

22.4 No track testing may take place :
e) During the month of August except under (h)(iii) below.
iii) If a team declares that one of its current race drivers is to be substituted by a
driver who has not participated in an F1 race in the two previous calendar years,
one day of track testing will be permitted between the start of a ten day period
which precedes the start of the second Event and the last Event of the
Championship. The following must be observed :
- Any such day may only be carried out by the new driver and may not take
place on a circuit hosting a race in the current Championship year.
- Any such day may only take place within a period 14 days prior to the
substitution and 14 days after the substitution has taken place.
- If a team, having declared the driver’s substitution and performed the test,
does not then enter an Event with the new driver, the team will be penalised
by a reduction of one day from the pre-season track testing days available in
the following year.

http://www.fia.com/s...004.07.2013.pdf

[Gilles4Ever]

There are no excuses regarding the shutdown, with every team obliged to close their doors over the course of 14 days. This year those 14 days had to commence either on the Monday immediately after the Hungarian Grand Prix, or a week later on August 6.
http://www.formula1....12/8/13676.html

[Clatter]

22.4 No track testing may take place :
e) During the month of August except under (h)(iii) below.
iii) If a team declares that one of its current race drivers is to be substituted by a
driver who has not participated in an F1 race in the two previous calendar years,
one day of track testing will be permitted between the start of a ten day period
which precedes the start of the second Event and the last Event of the
Championship. The following must be observed :
- Any such day may only be carried out by the new driver and may not take
place on a circuit hosting a race in the current Championship year.
- Any such day may only take place within a period 14 days prior to the
substitution and 14 days after the substitution has taken place.
- If a team, having declared the driver’s substitution and performed the test,
does not then enter an Event with the new driver, the team will be penalised
by a reduction of one day from the pre-season track testing days available in
the following year.

http://www.fia.com/s...004.07.2013.pdf

There are no excuses regarding the shutdown, with every team obliged to close their doors over the course of 14 days. This year those 14 days had to commence either on the Monday immediately after the Hungarian Grand Prix, or a week later on August 6.
http://www.formula1....12/8/13676.html

The articles I've found say they have been testing this week, so if any rules have been breached it's not the August shutdown ones.

[ardbeg]

Well, 2011 car could be trimmed to 2013 downforce levels and engine maps. But suspension geometry of course not.

I think a lot of the suspension could be altered as well, there is no dramatic differences between the 2011 and 2013 regulations and no one outside Ferrari have any detailed drawings of the cars. Except Ron of course.

[ExFlagMan]

I wonder how much of the car is '2011' - or is it like my dad's hammer that he used all his working life - the same hammer, it just had 20 new heads and 30 new handles.

[wrighty]

I wonder how much of the car is '2011' - or is it like my dad's hammer that he used all his working life - the same hammer, it just had 20 new heads and 30 new handles.

aka 'Trigger's old broom' lol

I agree, and this is a point that came up during the Mercedes discussions, at which point the 2011 car isn't a 2011 car through the addition of parts (i used the example of hubs and brakes which could easily be transferred by a team and tested on 'their 2011 car'......ironically that was Ferrari too!) Ho hum, 'same as it ever was' eh.

[William Hunt]

I believe it's a F2011 with 2013 parts. Personally I don't think this tests should be running if they are allowed to use 2013 parts, that is an unfair advantage.

I absolutely agree. It's the second time this year that they are doing this. First 3 days at Barcelona and now 3 days at Magny Cours. They would never do that if they didn't have something to gain from it because such a 3 day test is expensive. Imho it's illegal what they are doing.

Edited by William Hunt, 31 July 2013 - 14:51.

[BrawnGeePee]

i read this morning on the 'Gazzetta dello Sport' that ferrari yesterday started testing with PdR and a 2011 car for three days
so is this fine with every team?

Wait...PdR meaning Paul di Resta? or PdlR for Pedro de la Rosa?
If its di Resta, now that would be really fishy~

edit: just checked the source, It was Pedro de la Rosa~

Edited by BrawnGeePee, 31 July 2013 - 15:20.

[03011969]

Imho it's illegal what they are doing.

I daresay the other teams will complain if they agree with you.

[Atreiu]

i read this morning on the 'Gazzetta dello Sport' that ferrari yesterday started testing with PdR and a 2011 car for three days
so is this fine with every team?

I guess it is. I only wish McLaren had being working on the MP4-26 as well.

[fabr68]

If everybody can do it I dont see the problem. Also the FIA approved it.

Just beacuse other teams dont want to do this it does not make it illegal

[Massa]

I absolutely agree. It's the second time this year that they are doing this. First 3 days at Barcelona and now 3 days at Magny Cours. They would never do that if they didn't have something to gain from it because such a 3 day test is expensive. Imho it's illegal what they are doing.

Did you know a team, who do something without any gain ?

It is not illegal. It's allowed. Other team can do the same.

[William Hunt]

Did you know a team, who do something without any gain ?

It is not illegal. It's allowed. Other team can do the same.

The rules alow to test with an at least 2 year old car but if they are fitting new parts on a 2 year old car then this 2 year old car is not in the configuration of 2 years ago. That's why my book it is illegal, because they are testing new parts that are not 2 year old, for example a new exhaust. And other teams are doing straight line test they are not renting an F1 track for 3 days.

[Massa]

The rules alow to test with an at least 2 year old car but if they are fitting new parts on a 2 year old car then this 2 year old car is not in the configuration of 2 years ago. That's why my book it is illegal, because they are testing new parts that are not 2 year old, for example a new exhaust. And other teams are doing straight line test they are not renting an F1 track for 3 days.

If ? Why if ?

You were at Magny cours to know they are fitting 2013 parts ? How was their new exhaust ? ANd if it was illegal why others teams did not complain to FIA ?

Edited by Massa, 31 July 2013 - 18:23.

[redreni]

Is this straightline or track testing?

Neither I'd imagine. As long as the car doesn't conform substantially with the current technical regs or those from the previous or subsequent season, then as far as the regulations are concerned it's not track testing even if it's a test run on a track.

After the judgement in the Mercedes case the FIA announced a "crackdown" and said teams must ask permission before any test, but it doesn't say that in the regulations. The requirement to ask permission is one of the many regulatory restirctions on track testing, but judging by Jean Todt's previous decision not to prosecute Ferrari over its Barcelona test, a test with a 2011 car is not track testing so there are no restrictions on it.

Would be intersting to see what tyres have been used, as Pirelli are bound to be severely restricted by their contract in what tyres they can supply for a private test of this nature. They must treat all teams equally. They've already been reprimanded once...

[Buttoneer]

It's hard to get really excited about this. I think the forum is all out of torches and pitchforks after the Mercedes thing.

[KWSN - DSM]

It's hard to get really excited about this. I think the forum is all out of torches and pitchforks after the Mercedes thing.

I can not get excited about a test being performed according to the rules and regulations. Which any and all teams are allowed to perform if they so chose.

[William Hunt]

@ forum user Massa: are you really so naieve that you believe that Ferrari would test with a 2011 car with only 2011 parts on it and no current or new parts?

[KWSN - DSM]

@ forum user Massa: are you really so naieve that you believe that Ferrari would test with a 2011 car with only 2011 parts on it and no current or new parts?

It is a legal test which is being conducted according to rules and regulations, which all teams can decide to run following same. Are you really so naive that you think any team will break the testing rules within 6 months of Mercedesgate?

[Seano]

As far as I know, no wind tunnel can really simulate a cars behaviour through bends as its essentially static.

So if its a correlation test for their wind tunnel they only need to go up and down in a straight line and the Pirelli demo tyres will do for that. You don't need Magny Cours for 3 days or the current tyres for that.

I wouldn't mind betting that they suddenly need a bit more wind tunnel correlation/calibration in 3 weeks time but this time at Spa.

If they are using this years current tyres, they are blatantly testing the limits and behaviour of the tyres.

I'd call that cheating.

They cheated last weekend and it looks like they are at it again. What really galls me is their two faced, holier than thou attitude.

Just shows how desperate they are really. I wonder who at the FIA approved this. From the IT
we know that Charlie Whiting doesn't have the authority and nor does their legal top bod.

Could it be the head of the FIA, former head of Ferrari and soon to be a recipient of a Ferrari pension?

I think we should be told.

Seano

[Briz]

I daresay the other teams will complain if they agree with you.

Other teams think "if there is something wrong no need to bother, Ferrari will complain about it like always"

[William Hunt]

It is a legal test which is being conducted according to rules and regulations, which all teams can decide to run following same.

The rules say that is has to be with a car that is at least 2 years old, a car that is 2 years old but that rund on current tyres and with new parts is not a 2 year old car, it is a 2 year old car with new parts. That is breaking the rules.

Mercedes went even further in this logic by claiming that a team that tests with a 2 year old car also breaks the testing rules because the 2011 cars are largely conforming to this season's regulations. Mercedes used this argument on their defence during the trial. Their argument that Ferrari was breaking the rules (as well): http://en.espnf1.com...ory/111791.html

[KWSN - DSM]

The rules say that is has to be with a car that is at least 2 years old, a car that is 2 years old but that rund on current tyres and with new parts is not a 2 year old car, it is a 2 year old car with new parts. That is breaking the rules.

Mercedes went even further in this logic by claiming that a team that tests with a 2 year old car also breaks the testing rules because the 2011 cars are largely conforming to this season's regulations. Mercedes used this argument on their defence during the trial. Their argument that Ferrari was breaking the rules (as well): http://en.espnf1.com...ory/111791.html

Which part of the test being run by and confirmed by the FIA is hard to grasp for all of you calling it cheating? Which part of all teams can apply for same test if they want to is hard to understand?

Edited by KWSN - DSM, 01 August 2013 - 00:51.

[CrucialXtreme]

I think a lot of the suspension could be altered as well, there is no dramatic differences between the 2011 and 2013 regulations and no one outside Ferrari have any detailed drawings of the cars. Except Ron of course.

Are you serious? EDB. Off throttle blowing. Pull rod suspension versus push rod just to name a few huge differences. .

[packapoo]

Probably testing that KERS based system that was trialed on Massa's car when he did his recent crash-test dummy programme.
Seemed to be some conjecture whether same was actually legal?

[dave34m]

I believe it's a F2011 with 2013 parts. Personally I don't think this tests should be running if they are allowed to use 2013 parts, that is an unfair advantage.

Horner asked FIA about this but they said it was ok but only if your car is red

[Der Pate]

Horner asked FIA about this but they said it was ok but only if your car is red

[Kimbo]

Turrini's blog has said it is for testing simulation data. Magny Cours is the best place to do that because of the smooth surface.

[trogggy]

The rules say that is has to be with a car that is at least 2 years old, a car that is 2 years old but that rund on current tyres and with new parts is not a 2 year old car, it is a 2 year old car with new parts. That is breaking the rules.

Actually there's nothing in the current regs to stop Ferrari - or any other team - building a brand new car just for testing. As long as it doesn't 'substantially conform' to this year's, last year's or next year's regs it doesn't fall within the rules.
How different would it have to be? That's another question.
And does putting new parts on an old car make it 'substantially conform'? That's at the very least doubtful.

[kosmos]

Horner asked FIA about this but they said it was ok but only if your car is red

Can you write something that is not rubbish?

“We have been testing for two days with our 2011 car and the Pirelli demonstration tyres,” he confirmed.

“The FIA was informed in advance of all the details, and (Ferrari) meets the requirements to be able to do it.”

He added that the main goal of the test was to collect “data for several new programmes of the simulator”.

[Burtros]

Nothing to get excited about here. If Ferrari have had permission then what is there to complain about. I want to know why the other teams like McLaren etc are not doing the same, but you have to assume they feel there's nothing to gain for whatever reason.

Can you write something that is not rubbish?

To be fair, given everything that has happened between the FIA and Ferrari over the years its a perfectly legitimate suspicion for anyone to have.

[Clatter]

Nothing to get excited about here. If Ferrari have had permission then what is there to complain about. I want to know why the other teams like McLaren etc are not doing the same, but you have to assume they feel there's nothing to gain for whatever reason.



To be fair, given everything that has happened between the FIA and Ferrari over the years its a perfectly legitimate suspicion for anyone to have.

That was my thought as well. The smaller teams would probably love to, but can't afford it. RB may not need to as they seem to be able to make everything work via simulation.

[ardbeg]

Are you serious? EDB. Off throttle blowing. Pull rod suspension versus push rod just to name a few huge differences. .

Are you serious? Off throttle blowing can easily be turned off and push/pull rod behaviour might not be identical, but behaviour can certainly be be adjusted and differences calculated.
I never said the car could be made identical.