15 replies to this topic

[100cc]

Can anyone tell me the approximate budjets of all the teams??

[tifosi]

I would very seriously doubt if anybody could even give you an approximate value. Of course one problem is what is a budget? Ferrari obviously builds its own car, so therefore definately has higher costs than any other team. On the other hand, the drivers are paid by Marlboroo, so is the Marlboro money part of the budget?
Teams like McClaren, Jordan, and BAR get very nice engines. It is rumored that Mercedes spend $300M on their engine program. Is this part of McClarens budget?

Any numbers you do get are nothing more than completely wild guesses

[100cc]

Originally posted by tifosi

Any numbers you do get are nothing more than completely wild guesses

I like guessing games=)

[Billy]

Originally posted by tifosi
the drivers are paid by Marlboroo, so is the Marlboro money part of the budget?

On another thread, the same thing was alleged

Originally posted by RedFever
Marlboro pays for the drivers, so it's a non-issue for the team, Michael doesn't get a penny from Ferrari directly.

I don't agree with this. Ferrari must have the contract with the drivers, not Marlboro, otherwise Marlboro could tell them what to do. The employer must keep control. In the days of Gilles, I think the drivers were personally sponsored by Marlboro because Enzo Ferrari didn't accept the sponsorship on his cars. This gave the cigarette company a lot of power when selecting which drivers would race for teams like McLaren and Ferrari. For example, at Gilles first test with Ferrari, he said "I don't know who recommended me to Ferrari. It might have been Marlboro. In any case I have to be grateful to whoever it was that gave me this opportunity." It was said that Gilles was rejected by McLaren, despite his great drive for the team at Silverstone 1977, because Marlboro wanted a European driver.

[tifosi]

Billy,

Yes of course the driver's are under contract to Ferrari, but it is paid by Marlboro. This is over and above the sponsorship money that Marlboro pays for their stickers on the car. This is basically why Ferrai wouldn't have any more money for R&D if MS wasn't paid so much. It would simply be less money Ferrari would get from Marlboro.

[tifoso]

Quite a lot of information about Ferrari's finances were posted on a thread in the Atlas F1 Court forum: Case #10: Is Schumacher overpaid?

If anyone is a pack rat and went to see the 96 Canadian Grand Prix with Grand Prix Tours, their info packet included an estimate of team finances but said it was one of the big mysteries of F1.

[Billy]

Marlboro is just the title sponsor. It pays the most to be the most important symbol displayed on the car and the drivers. As Montezemolo said "But Fiat is not among the top four of our sponsors. We have Philip Morris, Shell, Ferrero, Italcom and Fedex ahead of Fiat." I'm sure any of Shell, Ferrero, Italcom or Fedex would like to be the title sponsor when Marlboro is forced out the sport. Would they "pay for the drivers"? It's just an accountancy exercise that is being confused by the fact that Michael Schumacher is paid so much.

[CanMike]

F1 magazine published the value of the teams in a Spring issue last year (2000). I remember reading that if you wanted to purchase the Ferrari F1 team, you'd have to cough up approximately 100 Million Pounds, or some ridiculous amount. McLaren wasn't far behind. All I really remember is my jaw dropping to my chest when I saw the figures.

If you search their Web Site you might just find the article.

I believe they broke down the cost of each department. Good Luck.

[slick1jayj]

Ferrari (Bridgestone) Employees: 681 Budget: $284.35m
1: Michael SCHUMACHER (Germany)
2: Rubens BARRICHELLO (Brazil)

McLaren-Mercedes (Bridgestone) Employees: 450 Budget: $274.55m
3: Mika HAKKINEN (Finland)
4: David COULTHARD (Scotland)

Williams-BMW (Michelin) Employees: 380 Budget: $192.95
5: Ralf SCHUMACHER (Germany)
6: Juan Pablo MONTOYA (Colombia)

Benetton-Renault (Michelin) Employees: 336 Budget: $180.95
7: Giancarlo FISICHELLA (Italy)
8: Jenson BUTTON (England)

BAR-Honda (Bridgestone) Employees: 321 Budget: $195.45m
9: Olivier PANIS (France)
10: Jacques VILLENEUVE (Canada)

Jordan-Honda (Bridgestone) Employees: 240 Budget: $172.9m
11: Heinz-Harald FRENTZEN (Germany)
12: Jarno TRULLI (Italy)

Arrows-AMT (Bridgestone) Employees: 310 Budget: $73.65m
14: Jos VERSTAPPEN (Netherlands)
15: Enrique BERNOLDI (Brazil)

Sauber-Petronas (Bridgestone) Employees: 260 Budget: $82.65m
16: Nick HEIDFELD (Germany)
17: Kimi RAIKKONEN (Finland)

Jaguar-Cosworth (Michelin) Employees: 320 Budget: $177.425m
18: Eddie IRVINE (Northern Ireland)
19: Luciano BURTI (Brazil)

European-Minardi (Michelin) Employees: 160 Budget: $47m
20: Fernando ALONSO (Spain)
21: Tarso MARQUES (Brazil)

Prost-Acer (Michelin) Employees: 235 Budget: $47.5m
22: Jean ALESI (France)
23: Gaston Mazzacane (Argentina)

jay

[taran]

Nicely done, slick1jayj

A word of warning though....

These budget figures are somewhat deceptive and don't tell the whole story. For instance, they include the engine budgets. The usuable amount for the teams is significantly less. Part of the money is also only "payment in kind" i.e. technical support or goods. Think tyres, computer hardware & software, beer, food etc.

Mercedes spends around $120m p.a. on F1 and part of this is also used to subsidise McLaren directly. That figure is $25m-$30m and allow Mercedes to veto sponsors and dictate the overall livery i.e. silver livery. West' house colours are in fact red-white!

BMW does the same. They contribute around $20m directly to Williams and in return may veto sponsors and dictate the blue-white colours. Compaq house colours are namely red-white.

BAR is another "special case". Approximately $100m of their total "budget" is the Honda budget for their engines (including the $50m BAR have to pay for the engine). But Honda also provide technical chassis support worth $20m.

Furthermore, the $80m p.a. budget from BAT has been reduced by $30m. Or more accurately, $30m p.a. is directly diverted to a special account to repay the massive debts BAR have encurred the last 3 years. Together with the $7.5m from WOL/Tiscali this leaves BAR with only $57.5m as operating budget. If one extracts Villeneuve’s salary of $16m p.a., this leaves only $41.5m, stranding BAR firmly in Prost and Minardi territory!


So the naked numbers hide a lot

[arcwulf7]

Thanx jay (and taran you seem to have some pretty good info for a newbie)

value for money seems to be Sauber (and Minardi, sentimental favourite), dog stock seems to be Renault (so far anyway ;), )

[Melbourne Park]

Another thing is how they include technology aids. For instance, if you rent time at a wind tunnel, that's an annual expense and is part of the budget. But if you build your own wind tunnel, like McLaren (finished) and Toyota are doing, its a capital investment, and may not even be part of the annual budget. It may even be just simply show a depreciation expense, and that may be lowered by selling time to other organisations, in McLaren's case, to Mercedes for instance.

The same issues go to software and to CFD, computational fluid design, the trend towards doing aero design in the computer rather than in the tunnel. The advantage of that would be speed, and individual track set ups. Such costs can be hidden by a parent company if they want.

As auto companies get more involved, its going to get more and more difficult to know exactly how much it all costs. I suspect that the auto companies don't want their winning car to carry the label: Oh, they just bought it, they spent x times as much. They'd rather win it by being remembered as being better. So I suspect the costs will not be that easy to actually know. And behind the scenes, the financial and tax accountants will argue about how the costs should be shown as well...

[taran]

Thanks, Arcwulf7

but I'm not sure I'd qualify as a newbie

I've been avidly following F1 since 1982, and have happily delved into its history from before the period I got interested as a youngster.

Although most teams don't publish much useful information, they have been more forthcoming the past few years, especially on financial matters and you'd be surprised what for info is available with a little digging.

But for my BAR info, I must thank a friend who works as an accountant for the firm that does the yearly shareholder report check for BAT. The stories about the financial mismanagement at BAR under Pollock and Gorne defy imagination. But sanity has been restored somewhat and Gorne was only one of many to get axed. I still hope that Pollock will follow....

[100cc]

thanks people, great info.

[slick1jayj]

Ferrari has to have the most money to play around. They signed a contract worth $706 million with Marlboro / Phillip Morris that last untill 2006 when tobacco sponsorships will be banned.

jay

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by slick1jayj
Ferrari has to have the most money to play around. They signed a contract worth $706 million with Marlboro / Phillip Morris that last untill 2006 when tobacco sponsorships will be banned.

jay

Its year 2001 now; so that's 6 years; that's only 117 million per year. Less inflation, lets say 100 million per year.

Not so much really.

You've got to wonder though if a team like Sauber who keeps on getting so much publicity, what they would deserve from their advertisers!! But that's of course another question...