35 replies to this topic

[Martyj]

Now that re-construction is underway at Hockenhiem, and the forest section is being "cut out", does anyone know the fate of the stone marker near the Clark chicane that memorializes Jimmy? Is the forest area going to be sold and devolped?

One of my life's goals was to travel to Germany (from the US) to pay my respects at this shrine to my boyhood idol. Anyone have more info on this?

Thanks.

[Speed Demon]

I don't think there are plans to sell off the land for development - it's too heavily forested. Don't know what is happening to the old portions of track, though.

[Doug Nye]

I can't break myself away from this darned Forum - it's all too stimulating.

When Spa was redeveloped, new pits and pit lane introduced before La Source and some degree of run-off and new barrier erected around the Blanchimont, Bus Stop area - the buggers removed the Seaman Stone from the site it had occupied since the war...marking the site of Dick Seaman's fatal Mercedes accident when leading the 1939 Belgian GP.

As far as I know this memorial stone - paid for and eected by Dick's friends and admirers, in conjunction with the RACB - was last seen, uprooted, leaning against the wall in an unvisited store in the Stavelot Museum - which (quite properly) mostly features Battle of Bulge exhibits, for Stavelot Bridge was the scene of a violent stand-off between Tiger tanks and a terrified, but steadfast, American anti-tank gunnery crew in December 1944. As far as I'm concerned - even with my lifelong motor sporting bent - that takes precedence.

But as for those who removed the Seaman Stone, ignored it, lost it - hang their heads in shame...

DCN

[2F-001]

I went looking for this on a recent visit to Francorchamps. No wonder I couldn't find it - never occured to me it had left the circuit entirely...

[Bernd]

Just like the Mayer stone at Longford moved from its proper place by earthworks and now part of a memorabilia collection across the road for people to gawk at.
The lack of respect is rather disheartening.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I can't break myself away from this darned Forum - it's all too stimulating.

Doug, first let me also welcome you to the Forum and tell you how much I've enjoyed your books.

It's no problem that you can't break yourself away...so long as we aren't interfering with your great research. I certainly know that my joining this group and another racing history group has given me a lot more projects and interfered with my planned projects...but in a good way

The topic of memorial items reminds me of something I ran across last year. A reference to a memorial plaque in honor of Bruce McLaren which was at the base of a flagpole in the paddock area at Bridgehampton Raceway. Since Bridgehampton has just recently been razed and converted into a golf course...I wonder what happened to the plaque?

Similarly, I read of Riverside, California starting a "Walk of Fame" for drivers in an area of car dealerships (a few miles West of Riverside International Raceway). Much like the tradition at Graumann's Theater in Hollywood, drivers were to leave their footprints and signatures in cement. I wonder whatever became of these sections of concrete?.


Jim Thurman

[racer69]

I think the forest section will stay, it will still be used by the DTM etc.....

[jrosenzweig]

As far as i know, and this isn't good, once the new section is built, the old circuit will be torn up and trees planted. This means no more long straights, and no Ostkurve. Was there ever a memorial for Patrick Depailler?

As for the Clark memorial who knows. It would be hardly surprising that nobody involved with the Hockenchopring gives a toss about if the Clark memorial is removed. The fans would be the only ones who care, and its ironic that they are the ones that go to watch the F1

Then having said that, i think the "renovations" are meant to include a hairpin at the first chicane... this would mean some runoff, and perhaps 50m or so down the clark memorial will remain. lets hope so.

[jrosenzweig]

Before i forget, Ben when we go camping on the River Murray over easter at Higgin's Cutting, if you go walking on the NSW side about 3 km from the river you come across a grave. It's one of the early pioneers grave that a friend of my fathers found while he was just walking around one day. Quite surprising that he found it! I'm sure since the land is only used for grazing nobody will remove it...

I wonder why Mayer's memorial was removed?

[Catalina Park]

There are two versions as to why the Mayer memorial was moved (Into the Pub)
1. That the stone was moved during road works. (the road had a hump built into it after bad floods in 1969 but in an article in Sports Car World in 1978/79 had the stone in its right place)
2. That the stone was moved due to a house being built and the owners or developers didn't want the memorial on the footpath outside the house.
I would like to see the stone in its correct place not in a pub (It is a very good pub though)

[Barry Boor]

I hope the Jim Clark Memorial is not moved; but if it has to be moved, I hope it finds its way to the museum in Duns.

[Bernd]

It should stay at the Hockenheimring no matter what occurs with this pathetic new layout. If necessary a nature trail should be built out to it.

[Barry Boor]

Good idea, Bernd.

[Redliner]

With Bernd all the way on this one. The removal or even worse the complete ignorance of Jimmy Clark's memorial would be wrong. In fact the though worries me greatly. In the new game Money Walks Talks and Kills everything else. I really cant see anyone of the redevelopers making concessions for a dead man they have never even heard of. Someone should point out to them how much the man's memory is revered. Not content with destroying every single circuit that was worth anything the new F1 world seems intent on ignoring its history as well. Extremely sad indeed. I cant bear to think of that marker on its own in those miserable trees for all eternity. It HAS to be incorperated in some way. I'm also of the opinion that anyone who loses their life at a circuit should be remembered in the form of a marker, or at the very least a mention in the paddock, perhaps a memorial wall at every circuit worldwide, a far reaching proposition maybe, but one I feel strongly about. One has to wonder how many men and women have paid the ultimate price and are never heard of again. The thought sickens me. Once again I'm further convinced of money poisoning our Sport to a great extent. I even find myself cursing the day that Colin Chapman sighned that bit of paper with Gold-Leaf. . . .

[BRG]

I'm with Bernd too. Leave it where it is - the people who care will still find it.

[Don Capps]

I try to visit the Rosemeyer stone just off the autobahn whenever I return to Germany. It is not that far from Heidelberg and the Hockemheimring. If the fate of the Seaman Memorial is any indication of how The Past is treated, it bodes ill for the Clark Memorial.... I remember trying to see the Seaman Stone every time we visited the circuit.

PS for Doug -- my Dad and my uncle were in the thick of the fighting in that area around the circuit. My Dad was surprised during the battle to realize that he was actually on a race track.

[Doug Nye]

Don,

Don't get me started on military or naval history...just don't, OK?

The closest 'Rollbahn' German advance route to Spa circuit in the 'Battle of the Bulge' passed from Malmedy - I believe - either down the Masta Straight or just the other side of the railway parallel to the Masta Straight, then into Stavelot where the bridge was defended so courageously and the advance delayed.

There's a road I used to drive which runs down from the Francorchamps area to Stavelot parallel with the 'spooky' circuit section running up from Stavelot Corner, past La Carriere to Blanchimont and La Source which had been chosen as the site of a major fuel dump.

Literally millions of petrol cans had been stacked both sides of the road for about a mile or more, and in view of the panic radio reports coming in - followed by the worst news of all, silence - the order was given to fire the fuel dump. Which was done. It all proved to be a case of premature ignition - because, to coin a phrase - the Hun had not in fact over-advanced.

Incidentally, when it comes to 'Bulge' history, there's what promises to be a lovely Belgian event due in June this year - celebrating the centenary of the first significant multi-lap road race - the 1902 Circuit des Ardennes. It will be centred upon the town which provided the focal point for that pioneering event - Bastogne...

Give us an American view of that?

DCN

[Catalina Park]

There was a memorial at Catalina Park (Katoomba, Australia) for Jack Myers who was killed at the track, the memorial was on the gatepost next to the control tower, I remember seeing the memorial when I was a kid (the track was near our house and all the local kids played there) but when I started racing in 1980 the memorial plaque was gone and I thought it was gone forever.
Then I competed at Silverdale Hillclimb and next to the start line was the plaque, the bloke that run Silverdale was a mate of Jack Myers and moved the plaque to save it. Then Silverdale closed and the plaque was moved to Amaroo Park race circuit where it stayed for ten years untill Amaroo closed then the plaque was removed and given to Jack Myers widow and she was going to have it placed in a Museum in South Australia.
If the Plaque had stayed at Catalina it would have been destroyed by now (the circuit is still there but all the buildings are gone) I am glad it had been saved but I think it should have stayed in NSW maybe at Eastern Creek.

[Peter Bramwell]

Hello all,

I have a picture of the memorial on my Jim Clark site. If anyone has a wider shot of the scene I would be pleased to receive it.

Regards,

Peter Bramwell
Brisbane, Australia

www2.eis.net.au/~bramwell/jim.htm

[paulhooft]

I was at the Jim Clark memorial last year at last..
And I visited the Rosemeyer Memorial at Morfelden to in June last year
I have 2 pictures one of the stone and one of the track from the stone,
and will send them to you

In fact I love to go to Duns too, the one reason why I have not been in England lately is that Great Britain is so enormously expensive to visit at this moment..!!
A trip to England from the Netherlands will almost cost me as much as a trip, plane fare included, to the US of America on the other site of the Atlantic!!
So I have postponed all trips to Great Britain, one of my favourite countries, until a later date.
Paul

[Redliner]

Does anyone think that a memorial wall is a good idea? If every race circuit was obliged to have one it would be a nice touch as well as a valuable historical record.

[Christopher Snow]

Good to talk to you, Doug (and hello too Jamie Rosenzweig ).

Funny that you should point up some of the "other" history of the Spa area--I've mentioned several times during our sim-racing over at VROC (the 1967 sim "Grand Prix Legends") a pair of events which this track has seen during its history. Unfortunately, and even though we are an older crowd in there than most in the online gaming communities, the subject is generally met with a resounding silence. Or, worse yet, it leads to a discussion of current American foreign policy.... Hardly the point, but what can you do?

.

Nonetheless, I myself cannot help but think now and then about those particular events at Malmedy and Stavelot. And even though I'm only racing on "virtual" roads when I drive past those spots.

You'll know I'm referring to the murder of some seventy American POW's from a captured artillery battery in the first case,* and what was an apparently similar treatment of a hundred or more Belgian civilians in the second.

You can probably see that for me, then, even "virtual" racing at Spa is a somewhat humbling experience. More than at any of the other tracks, and even though the Nurburgring is my own personal favorite.

[*I believe this event was the inspiration for the similar massacre scene in the 1965 movie "Battle of the Bulge"]

----

On another point, I'd like to offer a slightly different version of events re: the fuel dump, taken from Robert E. Merriam's 1957 book "Battle of the Bulge" (originally issued in 1947 as "Dark December)." Merriam himself was at one point Chief of the Ardennes sector of the Historical Division, ETO, (it seems they wrote the official history of the conflict), and was on the ground during and after the battle.

He suggests that the firing of the fuel dump** was, in fact, instrumental in turning the direction of the German spearhead from northward back to the west.

[**also loosely referenced in the same film]

Quoting now:

"...Part of [Peiper's] outriders started north toward Spa and were only turned back by a torrent of 100,000 gallons of gasoline from the southern edge of the great gasoline dumps , which was poured into A STEEP CUT IN THE NARROW ROAD, and then ignited. This fire forced Peiper back and turned him on his main route to the west...."

[emphasis mine].

Now...I don't know whether or not you have seen GPL's rendition of the Spa circuit, but you DO point out that the fuel dumps...presumably the southern end of them...were at La Source. I'm unclear how the hairpin relates to the town itself and to where the dumps would have been, so I just assume the hairpin itself might have been part of this.

You also point out that the "spooky section" has a paralleling road (to the north?), so it may not be that this event, if true, actually occured on part of the Spa circuit itself--but on the other hand, maybe it did? I've often wondered about this when I drive back uphill toward the hairpin to complete a lap.

If the landforms are at all correct in the Papyrus version of the track, and if this event DID happen on the circuit, then the only spot I can see for it would be in the "road cut" emptying out from the Ambleve river valley up toward the hairpin. The cut surrounding the twin lefts through Blanchimont. It seems to me this would have been the likely spot.

Can you shed any further light on this for me? I'd love to hear anything you know about this, even if it blows large holes in my speculations.

I'd also like to extend you an invitation to come race or chat with us over at VROC should you ever decide to revisit 1967 on the PC. Best fun you can have on the web, and free if you already have the sim....

http://didnt.doit.wi...common/main.htm

Thanks for any light you can shed on the subject.


Christopher Snow

[Doug Nye]

Off the focus of this Forum - as you say - but it is interesting, and the shadows flitting among the trees alongside Europe's great road racing circuits have always provided much of their attraction for me.

Several points: Merriam's book reference to the importance of the fuel dump seems to have been refuted by SS commander Jochen Peiper's account - his force made no attempt to capture it although that movie - what fearful tosh it was - indicated otherwise.

The fuel dump was actually on the direct north-south Francorchamps to Stavelot road which runs almost parallel to the return leg (south-north) of the Circuit National but further to the west of it. 145,000 gallons of petrol burned - but 800,000 remained in jerry cans to be hastily removed by truck to Spa, then by trains from Spa itself.

The so-called 'Malmedy Massacre' occurred in a field alongside the Ligneuville road advance route, which is near Baugnez to the south-east of Malmedy. The present-day memorial there is erected on the wrong side of the road, not upon the site of the incident.

Incidentally while 43 death sentences were handed down to the perpetrators in 1946 - many subsequently being commuted - the spark for this much publicised massacre seems in reality to have been more cock-up than ghastly premeditated war crime, ugly though it undoubtedly was.

The 23 civilians massacred in Stavelot were a different matter, all because a lone US soldier opened fire upon adancing grenadiers from the house in which they were sheltering. In that case the German commander responsible was sentenced to 15 years imprisonment - and served three.

Despite protests from the American Legion - SS force commander Jochen Peiper was freed from prison in 1956 - in 1976 he was murdered by arsonists unknown in his house in France.

DCN

[MPea3]

Originally posted by Christopher Snow


Thanks for any light you can shed on the subject.


Christopher Snow

i stumbled across this map (welll, KIND of a map) on a battle of the bulge website which shows the petrol dump, and what appears to be the track at stavelot. the only question i have about the map is on the road to malmedy, the odd double hairpin and RR crossing about where i'd expect to see masta. is this just an error or were the road configuratons different before the war? the only road maps i've seen of the track area are post WW2, do there exist accurate maps online of the area prior to the war?

http://www.xs4all.nl...ps/stavelot.jpg

[bkalb]

I agree with everyone, the thought of Jim Clark's memorial being removed and thrown away is repugnant. Is there an official F1 museum of any kind? Are there F1 or motor racing museums in Germany or Britain? Could we get a letter together to Bernie Ecclestone raising our concern about this, and at least get him thinking about preserving the memorial in a museum if it's to be moved from the track?

Barry Kalb

[paulhooft]

When I was there, I parked my car somewhere on the transport road near the exit of the first corner: it is then at least a 20 minute (I remember) walk on a road in the woods near the track to the Clack Curve

[C F Eick]

Last thing I read in a German car magazine was that the remaining sections of the track would be torn up. Apparently they will use the space for parking... Sad news indeed. I hope at least that they will put the memorial in the Motor-Sport-Museum at the track.

/C F Eick

[byrkus]

Does this mean that another piece of history is vanishing???

Well, at least they didn't have such ideas at Nürburgring, 20 years ago...

[Christopher Snow]

Ok, thanks so much for your reply Doug, and you too MPea3 for finding the map. You've set me straight on a number of points here (any factual errors were mine and not Merriam's let me emphasize too--I've put things together in my mind from a number of sources over the years, and not always very well).

I HAVE had the general impression that it was more a case of "had Peiper known the fuel dump was so close at hand, he might have turned the direction of his advance to confiscate the badly needed fuel," than of "he did know where it was, but it was never part of his design, so he passed on it." It doesn't surprise me to learn he claimed a different agenda after the fact.

The portrayal in the film of a fanatical Nazi (loosely based on Peiper's reputation I believe) who's sole mission in life was to secure the gasoline come hell or high water was always just typical Hollywood--I knew that much even when I first saw the film as a seven year old (about '67).

I understand he had only the vaguest notion of the location of the dump, and as desperate as the German fuel situation was in the spearheads, he'd not have gone gallivating off on a gasoline hunt without a very good idea of where his target lay. Hence the outriders, perhaps--with little or no solid intelligence, I'm sure that was the most he could spare (their other purpose being to probe what might be threatening his right flank).

It seems what the fire achieved, then, was not to "force Peiper back [to the west]" after all, but simply to prevent him from finding out the fuel was close at hand...and then perhaps having a reason to turn north.

----

In any case, I now know that the fuel dump fire would have been off to my left...a half mile or so...as I round Stavelot corner and head back north toward the hairpin. This question of mine now has a definite answer.

The map tallies very accurately with a satellite overhead (.jpg) of the area I have. I'd post it here with this reply so you could take a look yourselves, but I'm unclear how to do so. Can someone enlighten me?

Unfortunately, the nature of the double hairpins shown on this map...the two near what would be Masta, elude me. I can speculate that, because the terrain rise to the left and drops off to the right as you come down the other way on approach to the kink, that these twin hairpins were probably part of a road climbing sharply out of the river valley to the south. The straight, then, leading back up through the kink would continue on in the same direction along the railroad, but is simply not shown on the map.

Thanks again, and apologies too to the rest for usurping the thread for my own purposes. If I ever get to Hockenheim, visiting the Jim Clark Memorial is a the very top of my list of things to do. The only other thing I'd like to see there might be Ostkurve (to pay my respects to Patrick too).


Christopher Snow

[paulhooft]

Some opservations: stave lot is still a mile or so away from where the track turns back to Francorchamps and back in the late 30´s the track ran into a sharp corner at stavelot, the high speed corner was constructed only later.
and another one: there is a road that runs paralell (on the outside )to Francorchamps.
so these roads shown are I think, not the ones that are part of the circuit..
Paul Hooft

[Christopher Snow]

Addendum to previous...I've looked at the satellite overhead again and I now think I can see what might be this pair of "hairpins."

As you head out of the kink at speed (toward Stavelot corner), there are one or two building very close to the road on your left. Immediately past them, there does appear to be a road parallelling the railroad grade which leaves the highway here heading back to the west-southwest (it climbs first along the north side of what must be railroad fill). It then appears to turn ninety degrees left once it reaches the track level to cross the railroad at grade, and then turns another ninety degrees again before fading into the trees heading first back to the east-northeast (for perhaps 200 yards), and then turning off to the south....

I do remember taking note of the differences between our GPL version of the track and the footage shown in the film "Grand Prix," and I'm pretty sure there is, in fact, a road leaving to the south here. Then an embankment once again on the south side as you race further on toward Stavelot corner.

So the first "hairpin," would simply be the intersection with the main highway at the kink exit, and the second would be just the crossing of the railroad at grade. Not quite the impression you get from looking at the fuel dump map, but there you are.

[Christopher Snow]

And one more: I had hoped to be able to post my own closeup of an unretouched satellite .jpg very similar to this overhead, but without the blue track overlay. It seems this is not possible, however, so this will have to suffice.

http://www.johnnylug...pasatellite.jpg

If you have the ability to open this image in a program such as "Paint Shop Pro," you'll be able to zoom in to the kink area and can perhaps work out these "hairpins" (which really aren't) for yourself using my previous description as a reference. I've done my own retouching too using various colors to show where I think these hairpins and the other elements are, but you'll have to use your imagination since I cannot post it here.

One other note about this particular image: The blue track overlay is one showing the "Grand Prix Legends" version of Spa (taken from an editor) in an effort to relate it to the real layout--as can be seen, our verion is not terribly accurate, particularly at Eau Rouge and in the Burnenville area (the long righthander at the right side here, where Moss had his big crash in a Lotus). Our laptimes are, therefore, too quick by about 15-20 seconds per lap.

Still fun though.

Christopher Snow

[Doug Nye]

The 'two hairpins' on the Masta Straight in Christopher's map are an obvious fumble of the hand laying down the blue line - they relate in no way to the reality of this high-speed wiggle-woggle through Masta hamlet.

DCN

[Christopher Snow]

Righto, and I hope this link might make it a bit more clear (I'll need five minutes tho to get the shots up there, and you will need the ability to zoom in to make use of them.

http://forum.racesim...&threadid=25486

Putting up JPEG's now....


CS

[Drinky]

Well, sorry CS, but I think you're wrong about the location of the supposed double hairpin. If you look at the fuel dump map closely, you'll see that the double hairpin is located at the point where the Stavelot-Malmédy railroad (and thus the Circuit) meets the Warche river. This happens not at Masta, but at the end of the section of fast corners known as Malmédy right after the long Burnenville right-hander. The reason you can't find the double haipin on the modern satellite maps is because this is the place over which the A27 motorway/highway was built, so it's not clearly discernable anymore. Look at the photos lerouge xavier posted: take the third one and look at the second picture in that photo with the number 4 beside it, that's the "virage de Malmédy" and you can see the other road leading off from it. Another clue is in the fourth one by the number "4", you can see what looks like the double hairpin, right at the place where the Warche river is closest.

All of this is also seen on a more detailed map I have of the area. The Masta kink is in fact on the fuel dump map, it's that little kink to the left of the word "To". The only thing the author of the fuel dump map forgot was to include the Burnenville bend.

[Christopher Snow]

Yes, I think you are right now...more details in the other forum (below the JPEGs).


CS