35 replies to this topic

[bobbo]

I guess I could try to blame this on Don Capps because in his thread about the Andrettis, he says that Mario might be the best all-around driver, but . . .

Well, OK. Here I go, ready and willing to have both feet surgically removed from my mouth.

Who would YOU consider the best ALL-AROUND DRIVER? I mean all around, like maybe midgets, F1, Nascar, Outlaws, drags and/or whatever. Championships are not necessarily important here.

I'd say that Mario is right up there, possibly as a contender for the #1 spot, but what do you think?

This is NOT a definitive poll or survey, no way to make anything definitive. I'd just like to hear what who says and why.

Bobbo

Life is good. Circumstances may suck, but Life is good!

[Doug Nye]

Demonstrably Andretti though he benefited from rising in the age of the Boeing 707/747 and Concorde and so being able to flit readily 'twixt Continents.

Theoretically Moss but he was handicapped by rising in the age of the Avro York and DC6 and Connie and Stratocruiser before the 707 just sneaked in, and doing the best he could against the travel restrictions which constrained his racing (he still did darned well regardless).

But almost certainly Nuvolari 'cos whether it was fit or falling to pieces, 2 wheels, 3 wheels or 4, as long as it had motive power left in its system he could somehow make any heap of junk win... But since he rose through the age of the 'Rex' and the other great ocean liners, the Dornier X and various pioneering Savoias he never had access to the global reach of his successors...so we can never tell. I would grudgingly admit that I suspect Herr Schumacher would not be too shabby in anything from a milkfloat to a DUKW...given half a chance, and the budget to lure him.

DCN

[Buford]

Well only Dan Gurney came close. He did drive a roadster at Indy in practice his first year. He did win in F1, Indy Cars, sports cars, and stock cars. But he never ran dirt, or not that I know of and not in a major race. Jim Clark won in Indy Cars, F1, and sports cars and tried stock cars a time or two but did not win. AJ Foyt won in Indy cars, dirt cars, sports cars, and stock cars, but never ran F1. Lloyd Ruby won on dirt, Indy Cars and sports cars but never in stock cars or F1. Some non-winner drivers tried F1, Sports cars, Indy Cars, and stock cars. But those are about the only five I can think of who won races in 3 or more different types of racing.

[Buford]

Joe Leonard won in motorcycles, Indy cars, and raced dirt cars and sports cars and stock cars but I don't think he won in the later three. Paul Goldsmith won in Indy Cars, stock cars, and motorcycles. John Surtees won in Sports Cars, F1, and motorcycles.

[rdrcr]

Originally Posted by bobbo

I guess I could try to blame this on Don Capps because in his thread about the Andrettis, he says that Mario might be the best all-around driver, but . . .

ermm... I don’t think that was Don’s mention, rather alluded to by Buford and then proclaimed by me… not that Don wouldn’t agree with us / me anyway, but I just as soon let him speak fer himself.



Good Point Doug,

But I must say that the type of racing that Mario did might be considered uniquely American in context. The Midgets, Sprinters and Stock Car racing are all American born, thus giving a decided advantage to the Yanks as far as different variety and accessibility go. I venture further to say that there are many contenders for this “Best All-Around Racer” title. You have named other very prominent ones in Tazio Nuvolari and Stirling Moss. I’d venture to say another American, the hot-headed Texan A.J. Foyt might figure in the running… embarking on similar efforts as Mario. Oh BTW, Dan Gurney did vie for the Indy 500, Daytona 500 and for the WDC… (opps… I see Buford just did beat me to this one…) anyway there are others who come close but given the accessibility as you mentioned, which does count, I still give Mario the nod. As I don’t know if you could get the great Tazio to race up Pike’s Peak, but you never know, a racer is a racer… and as far as the great current champ, Michel Schumacher goes, I’d love to see him up against Sammy Swindel or Steve Kinser… Or how about Any of the top 10 in NASCAR… you see, IMHO, it’s the upbringing. Mario cut his teeth in the dirt, on the rough asphalt tracks of the Midwest and moved up… I just don’t see the “adaptability" from a specialized driver / racer like Schumacher. I wouldn’t give him a top 5 chance in a WRC, but I would Mario if he was driving in his heyday.


'course opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.

[Vitesse2]

Buford: Clark might not have done much in American stock cars, but he was no slouch in British saloon car racing - he also ran pretty well in rallies.

And while not usually considered as an all-rounder, there's a case here for Graham Hill - double WDC, Indy 500, Le Mans - plus plenty more big sports car races, F2, saloons and rallies.

[Buford]

Well Clark only tried once or twice in Nascar. Had he had more time he would have been a winner there too I am sure. Good point about the British "Stock Cars". I even saw Clark racing a Lotus Cortina. And obviously I incorrectly left out Graham Hill.

[Speed Demon]

Vic Elford ought to get a mention in dispatches. He was winner of the Monte Carlo Rally in 1967 and the Group 3 title for Porsche, before going on to win the Daytona 24 Hours, the Targa Florio and Nurburgring 1000kms. He was then snapped up by Cooper to drive in GPs, coming 4th at Rouen, 5th at St Jovite and 8th in Mexico City before the team folded at the end of the year.

In 1969 he continued in sportscars with Porsche and even tried his habd at NASCAR, coming 11th in the Daytona 500 in a Dodge. He scored more F1 points for Colin Crabbe's privateer Antique Automobiles McLaren-equipped squad before his F1 career was effictively ended when he broke his arm and collar bone in the aftermath of Mario Andretti's crash at the Nurburgring.

He bounced back with Porsche in sportscar racing, however, winning the Nurburgring 1000kms again. Outings in Can-Am and F2 followed, as did a win at Watkins Glen in Trans Am. He retired from driving in 1974 but returned to motorsport as team manager of the ATS team in 1977.

[stevew]

And Danny Ongais?

Not sure what his winning record is, but he ran F1, Indy cars (IRL, even) and dragsters.

Not sure if he ever ran NASCAR or sportscars (?)

[rdrcr]

Forgive me here... but we are supposed to be taking about the very best all around drivers that ever lived if understand bobbo's intent correctly... Even though he doesn't require championships as part of his evaluations.

Mentioning Danny "on-the-gas" Ongias in the same breath as Andretti, Clark, Moss and Nuvolari is almost heinous.

Same for Elford too. Believe me I wanted to mention some others like Hill and even Ickx but some of the criteria I would use is; that the drivers not only compete in the different types of cars but winning races and championships in them. When you fold in that criterion, the field becomes rather narrow, rather quickly IMHO.

[MPea3]

i think clark has to get the nod for me, he seemed like a real racer, running almost anything he could whenever he could.

i do have to say though, what about my childhood hero jack brabham? while thought of for his F1career, don't forget that he began in a midget on dirt, winning championships, ran indy and did so pretty well with the equipment he had, and i seem to remember him making the sports car rounds in a matra at the end of his career. i don't know of any stock cars, although someone with a knowledge of his australian racing might know better.

[Wolf]

Moss won in open wheelers (FI, FII, FIII), sportscars ('normal' and endurance), rallies, held a landspeed record*... I think he won +45% of all the races he entered. And, I guess, when one thinks only of the names he reced against all doubts as to who is the best all-rounder are lifted.;)

* and I'm sure I've forgotten some of it

[Carlos Jalife]

Exactly what are you counting?
Just for an example:
Carlos Reutemann did the Codasur Rally when it counted for the WRC and ended third plus he was great in F1, Sport Cars, F2, +touring cars in Argentina. Does he qualify or what? Besides he has a great name and soon will be president of Argentina which shows he is also competent in a much more difficult kind of track
Now the Rodríguez brothers. Champs in bicycles, champs in motorscycles (national champs not junior or anything), then car champs in Mexico in all kinds of touring cars, from FIAT Topolinos to Alfas to Corvettes, and then world Sports car winners, FJr. too, F1 winners (RR only points and a Podium at Pau but only 6 races), and Pedro ran Can Am (only ever podium for a BRM and I doubt anyone else could have gotten it), NASCAR (13th at Daytona in a 2 year old car), Interseries (wish he hadn't). And he was the tamer of the 917K beast, the best car ever (Motor Sport dixit). You made him an interesting offer (not necessarily money) and he'd drive wheel barrows if needed.

Also Gurney won Can Am and Mario Andretti never did, does that count for a better all-rounder?

And sincerely, dirt sucks, maybe in the 60's it didn't but asides from a bunch of Indy guys (kill me for saying this, I don't care) who knew nothing about right turns, who else won anything worthwhile there. Billy Boat? It is intrandescent since I was a kid.

What about Gilles? He was great at snowmobiles, dragsters, Atlantic champ and F1
And Rosemeyer, he was a motorcycle champ, hill climbs and European champ in the equivalent of F1, and he was a mean airplane driver. Does he count?
But Surtees is the only double world champ ever, although Tazio never had a world championship to fight for.
What about some rules so we can fight it out later (did I miss something)?
In all, I'd say Pedro rules, but I'm Mexican so if we take away nationality, then it would be Gurney.

[Buford]

I think everyone's interpretation of what constitutes "all around" is valid. I may have been one of the few here to have actually raced cars that could kill you on dirt, paved ovals, and road courses, and I can assure you racing on dirt requires no less skill, and possibly more than the other two.

People like Mario Andretti, A.J. Foyt, Lloyd Ruby, Al and Bobby Unser, Rodger Ward, Joe Leonard, etc raced dirt and also had accomplishments on road courses. Please do not compare the current IRL "drivers" and a Billy Boat to the drivers just mentioned. That is one of the true tragedies of the modern era in American racing. Some people, not many though, actually think the IRL has something to do with major league racing as we have known it in the past.

[Carlos Jalife]

Yes Buford, I wouldn't compare the Unsers or anyone of those guys with the current Silver Bullet or whatever it is series. Just that dirt is irrlevant since I was a kid , so maybe we shouldn't include it at all when counting all-around guys. I've driven off road races that are incredibly hard, maybe harder than the dirt ovals but nobody's nominating Robby Gordon and Parnelli Jones, Baja 1000, Champs Cars, and stuff winners.
Or should we also count highway greats (Panamericana, Mille Miglia and Targa) as a different category and Fangio was a master in those too.
Munari was very good too, rally and Alfa Romeo WSC.
I just thought that Jacky Ickx, also a motorcycle champ was also a Raid Rally great (paris dakar in the 959), and he could sometimes run with Pedro.

[Buford]

Well I think we can count anything we want when we are discussing "all around." When USAC dropped the dirt races from the Championship trail around 1970, it no longer was a requirement for being an "Indy Car" driver. Prior to those days, with no roll cages (or even roll bars until the late 1950s) and no wings, and no power steering, there is no way it could be said racing on dirt was not a highly skilled endeavor and the drivers I was referring to, did that and also succeeded on road courses and paved ovals.

But today, with the wings, and the lower staus ranking, dirt is nowhere to be racing if you want to get into Indy Cars, even the dumbed down, training wheel over downforced IRL cars. Much to the horror of the Tony George bootlickers who believed the con job George fed them about the reason he was splitting up the sport was to give opportunities to the poor unfairly excluded dirt track Americans.

Even in my era, the 1970s, very few people tried what I did, to race them all. It was partially due to money. How could you have enough money to do it all? It was partially due to what I ran into. If you wanted to do them all, it meant jumping around from car to car, often **** boxes, and not racing for championships in just one kind of car. And it was mostly due to politics. If you ran ovals you caught crap from the road racers and visa versa. Nobody wanted you to accomplish more than they did, so you were the bad guy to everybody if you tried to be versatile and race on whatever kind of road that stretched in front of you.

[Buford]

Actually, now that you mention it, Parnelli Jones won on dirt ovals as well as off road, Indy Cars, stock cars, and road races too. He should be on the list of candidates.

[ensign14]

Don't forget Jim Clark's mercurial rally career.

[fines]

May I throw in a spanner by the name of Walter Röhrl? Ok so he didn't drive single-seaters, but I'm pretty sure he would've excelled if he'd tried. Egon Ewertz won German Championships in Road Racing, Hill Climbing and Rallying - all in one year! He retired and came back, winning another Championship fifteen years later, then set out to build an F1 car complete with his own engine! Alas, he failed, and probably predictably, too, but at least he tried...

What about Henri Farman, world-class in bicycles, motorcycles, racing and touring cars? Malcolm Campbell? Camille Jenatzy? Giosue Guippone?

[2F-001]

A few random thoughts...

I don't think anyone has mentioned Mark Donohue yet...
(How is Mark regarded in the US? Although one of my 'favourites' I sometimes get the feeling nobody in the UK has heard of him... maybe I'm mixing with the wrong people...)

Vic Elford always impressed me because he was doing rallies, endurance racing and F1 all in the same season.

Clark was top British saloon racer in the year between his two WDCs. Can't imagine that happening today.

[Speed Demon]

Originally posted by rdrcr
Forgive me here... but we are supposed to be taking about the very best all around drivers that ever lived if understand bobbo's intent correctly... Even though he doesn't require championships as part of his evaluations.

Mentioning Danny "on-the-gas" Ongias in the same breath as Andretti, Clark, Moss and Nuvolari is almost heinous.

Same for Elford too. Believe me I wanted to mention some others like Hill and even Ickx but some of the criteria I would use is; that the drivers not only compete in the different types of cars but winning races and championships in them. When you fold in that criterion, the field becomes rather narrow, rather quickly IMHO.

Well hold on, surely the fact that Elford won a World Championship Rally as well as two of all-time sportscar classics counts as something (I forgot to mention he won Sebring in '71)? I don't see, for example, Gilles Panizzi or Tommi Makkinen doing the same now. Elford hardly had a fair crack at F1 either, yet he still scored points. I wouldn't dismiss him lightly. Anyone, if I've understood bobbo correctly, didn't he say "Championships are not necessarily important here"?

Yes I'm sure there are more talented racers out there, but I was just seeking to highlight that Vic was pretty versatile - surely the point of this thread?

[Buford]

Well Donahue won in Indy Cars and sports cars and raced F1 and stock cars. I don't recall if he won in Nascar and he got killed before he could win in F1. So he should certainly get a nomination.

[Redliner]

Jacky Icxx has done damn well in anything that he has entered, just a thought. And I still stand by it, the greatest wet weather driver who ever lived.

[dmj]

Paul Frere also deserves mention. Some of my favorites (Rosemeyer, Ickx, Donohue...) are already mentioned. But I'm here with Fines. Walter Rohrl is, in my oppinion, on of strongest candidates for title of best all-around driver. Too bad he is so tall...

[xjohnnyjaguarx]

what about marc duez , a belgian rallydriver turned circuits or the other way around im not sure
. anyway he was quick in anything with four wheels .
he was belgian rallychampion in 1982 and second in the european super vw champion in that
same year !!!!!!!!
he won the 24 u hour of spa twice , drove for factoryteams at worldchampioship rallying and participated at least 10 times at the 24ulemans
well he isnt at the andretti level but what he did and the lenght of time he did it
at least deserve some mentioning!!!!!!!!

[2F-001]

Didn't Marc Duez have a couple of single-seater drives in the past year or two - just ''for the fun of it'' ?
A real driving enthusiast.
I think René Metge had a similar diversity of experience - but, yes I am straying a bit from the ''best'' premise now...

[rdrcr]

Well hold on there... SD - whether or not you side with Elford, and I'll agree he was very versatile as well as somewhat accomplished driver, the operative word in bobbo's starting post was "necessarily" which means championships may or may not be used in argument. IMO, I'd say that the best all-around racers would have not only the versatility but the wins and overall consistant performaces to back it up. Thus, I'd say that Elford finishes well down the order despite his multitude of diverse disciplines.

I'd think that the greatest would include those who's careers span many decades of being truly competitive and in various forms of motorsports. Also, the racers that made the transition from 2 wheels to 4 with great success - like John Surtees and Mike Hailwood should be included. Surtees for sure as no one else has managed to win both championships IIRC.

I suppose in the spirit of bobbo's post and discussion that we could include damn near anyone who drove a dirt track an Indy car and a Stock Car - of which there was a boat load full in the 50's and 60's... But I thought that I'd just try to cut to the chase. I mean really aren't we talking about 10 or less individuals in the world that have shown the diversity and success?

After all it was the word "best" that got my attention, which implied to me, not to mention every driver that competed in more than one discipline of racing. - but perhaps not

Anyway....

I thought that the inclusion of John Surtees was a good one, same for Parnelli Jones and Mark Donohue.. and hell, I've never even heard of Egon Ewertz & Henri Farman... Just goes to show what I know - not much.

next...

[fines]

Originally posted by 2F-001
Didn't Marc Duez have a couple of single-seater drives in the past year or two - just ''for the fun of it'' ?
A real driving enthusiast.

Marc Duez indeed drove in at least one FFord Euroseries round at Francorchamps a year or two ago. IIRC, he raced against his own son there (and bet him, and many others...)

[Carlos Jalife]

Actually Mark Donohue did win at NASCAR but in Riverside (it had right turns, that's probably why) with a Matador (AMC) no less, plus the Javelins/Camaros of the Trans Am fame. But this brings me to George Follmer who also won Can Am, Trans Am and even scored in F1 with the Shadow, didn't he?
And Vic Elford was certainly impressive in the Can Am series trying out some very weird cars and making hem go very fast. Elford could mater the beast (917) while Mark got a Penskesized version although a bit more powerful. I'd vote for Vic.

And by the way, Redliner, Pedro was better than Ickx in the water, and we can't compare with other guys from other times like Senna, who was also quite good.
Just think of this: Pedro in a Ferrari, Jacky in a BRM, Dutch GP 1971, Pedro wins by at least one lap to say the least. The thing is Pedro was really in a BRM and Jacky in a Ferrari and Pedro had a misfire so he had to concede a few laps from the end when he was leading. Nobody in his right mind would take the BRM over the Ferrari, yet Pedro drove the BRM and lead a big part of the race and was beaten by 8 seconds in the end, when the track dried. Pedro ruled the water!!!!

[Viss1]

The drivers from the late '60s who competed in cross-continental series simultaneously always impressed me... particularly Denny Hulme and the aforementioned Bruce McLaren and John Surtees.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Carlos Jalife

And by the way, Redliner, Pedro was better than Ickx in the water, and we can't compare with other guys from other times like Senna, who was also quite good.
Just think of this: Pedro in a Ferrari, Jacky in a BRM, Dutch GP 1971, Pedro wins by at least one lap to say the least. The thing is Pedro was really in a BRM and Jacky in a Ferrari and Pedro had a misfire so he had to concede a few laps from the end when he was leading. Nobody in his right mind would take the BRM over the Ferrari, yet Pedro drove the BRM and lead a big part of the race and was beaten by 8 seconds in the end, when the track dried. Pedro ruled the water!!!!

I was there in Zandvoort that fascinating day. Pedro was great, but I think you're exaggerating a bit. After a great tussle, Ickx led from lap 32 on to the finish (lap 70) and it looked very much that he had everything in control, even before he actually led. Pedro was always 110%!
Was Pedro a better rain driver than Jacky? I think they were both among the best in a era in which we enjoyed a lot of great rain drivers. Pedro was fantastic in Brands Hatch 1970, but don't forget Jacky in the Spa 1000 km in 1968, when he led the field in the pouring rain after lap 1....by 38 seconds!

[scheivlak]

To elaborate further on Ickx's 1968 Spa 1000 km performance, Jacky had this to say afterwards:
"before taking the start of the Thousand Kilometers, I had won the annex race of The Cups of Spa at the wheel of a Ford Falcon, what had allowed me to acclimatize myself to the atmospheric circumstances and to track down where were the most dangerous puddles».
see http://www.jacky-ick...om/page_02.html
So, touring car experience helped the sportscar performance!
BTW, Ickx won the Spa 24h Touring Car race already in 1966 (in a BMW, with H.Hahne).

A very complete driver.

[bschenker]

Was Pedro a better rain driver than Jacky?

Rain tyres and driver ability.
Why have always used Good - Year tyres from 1968 to 1974, the only except was Formula 2 on 1971 (with the BT30/36) the use of Firestone.
In all this years the press wrote watts tyre it’s the best on rain after a wet race. I think the have right only for a special situation, about how heavy the rain and the quality of the tyre change.
This I have sea special on a Hockenheim race on 1972 with the Brabham BT38. On begin of both two race the rain was middle to heavy and Silvio Moser with the Good - Year gain places. After about a third to half race the weather change to fine raindrops and the drivers with Good -Year’s loosed place for vantage of the Firestone drivers. You sea with a little luck with the type of rain and the result was overturned. You have also to consider the type of rain tyre.
Prompt on the press was written Firestone the rain king, also Moser mean that’s from begun this Firestone’s is better. Only with his lap time and race position lap to lap he change idea. This is normal, after race normally you look only the final result and you don’t control the times lap for lap. With the same reason you classify also the quality of a driver in the rain.

[Don Capps]

This is perhaps a thread which covers several bases which is why I probably held off from responding for so long. When I got into really seriously following racing in the 1950's, drivers were generally "versatile" in that few were truly specialists and only did one series or type of racing. This was often as much as a factor of location and/or opportunity as inclination. Moss was simply an extreme example of one of a number of drivers who would and could drive about anything. Look at the logbooks of some drivers of the 1950's - 1970's period and you will see a bewildering number of races in an amazing variety of series and machines on a wide range of venues. For many of us, that was The Standard.

Even many of the "specialists" moonlighted -- a number of Champ Car types not only did sprints, but midgets and stock cars as well. The length of the Grand National season and the sheer number of events restricted some of the NASCAR regulars from dabbling in other types of racing, but you still had Fireball Roberts at Le Mans and David Pearson in Trans-Am on occasion -- you still get Kyle Petty at Daytona even today.

We forget that Innes Ireland was pretty open-minded in his racing as was Olivier Gendebien -- both taking a look at stock car racing. Curtis Turner was just a great Racer, period -- his performance in that Nash versus the Alfa Romes on the final leg of the 1950 Panamericana remains one the great unsung drives of the ages. Jochen Rindt was amazing -- flipping the switch to squeeze every micron out of an F2 racer by using precison and control and then plopping into a big car with some grunt and exceling -- not an easy task. As I read the names mentioned I found myself nodding in agreement time and again. We forget just how versatile and good some drivers really were.

In the USA, after the brave and successful effort of Paul Goldsmith to break the barriers down between the various series, it just got better in so many ways.

I think that is where the true divide comes for me and racing in the Modern Era: I don't really like the all too thick barriers to drivers sampling and jumping around from series to series or one type of racing to another. The feats of Moss, Gurney, Clark, Andretti, Foyt, or any number of others would be virtually impossible today. We essentially have closed shop racing these days -- most "name" drivers do a single series to the exclusion of any other type of racing (the Winston Cup & Busch series swaps being the exception rather than the rule).

Well, that's my view.

[David M. Kane]

Jackie Ickx...F1s, Ferrari Sports Racer, Porsche Sports Cars, Dakar Rally,
NASCAR is my number 1 vote too.

Granted Pedro was great in the rain too, but he didn't have the depth of Jackie. However, you have to admit that Pedro would race anything, anywhere, against anybody. You got to respect that.

I never saw Moss race in the flesh, so I don't think its fair to compare
him against Ickx and Pedro since it was out of movies and off the TV. I also think the competition that Jackie and Pedro had to face was much more
stout. Whereas, Moss had to deal only with that guy Fangio...who I never saw either. In essence, like all sports it is hard to compare different
eras. Can you say Tazio.

[Carlos Jalife]

Well, about exaggerating that Ickx led from lap 32 to 70, no way. I've seen parts of the race, in old movie reels, and while Ickx might have led across the line every lap (his car was better in the straight) Pedro passed him several times during that period, positive. I'll look for a lap chart, but read the chronicles from the era. And Pedro's car was misfiring., read the chronicles too. And it stopped raining sometime during the race which made Ferrari's potential achievable, unlike Pedro's in a misfiring BRM, and still he could hold Jacky in a very healthy Ferrari, so who's better? I am not convinced about Jacky's ability since he often had great cars and never won the championship, and Pedro often had inferior cars and fought for the lead, and when he had the best car (917) he was untouchable he won both championships in 1970/71 in sports cars, led more laps, drove more laps, won more races, than anyone else. It wasn't the one brand show from 1972 and as soon as Matra got serious, Ferrari was in trouble, Ickx or not. Never happened to Pedro and the Porsche.
Jacky was good, no doubt, but he was no Pedro. And you can also talk about Rouen 1968, Jacky great in aFerrari and the fastets lap, while his car lasted went to.......Pedro, in a BRM and again, we can´t compare the cars. Did anyone ever had to suggest "hey tell Jacky it is raining?", they had to suggest that to Pedro because he didn't notice he just kept driving at full, and those were Amon's famous words at the BOAC 1000. 1970.
Another thing, nobody says Stewart was so great in the rain, and yet he dominated a bunch of races in 1968/69 because his tyres were far superior to anyone else's as soon as it rained. Probably the same case for Spa 1968 1000K (but Pedro wasn't there otherwise Jacky would have been a couple of seconds behind since Spa was Pedro's fave )
But hey, dismiss me as Mexican......