35 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Apropos of nothing at all really - other than having just rediscovered this pic - this is the most chilling thing I can recall seeing in my 40 years plus of being in thrall to racing cars: We found this -apparently hammered with a nail point - when sandblasting off the grime of decades on the carburettor body of one of the Auto Unions retrieved from Russia by Paul Karassik.



It made the short hairs on the back of the neck stand up...

What poor, brave, defiant, bastard - in what salt mine - might have hammered out this mark of defiance into this iconic symbol of the regime which was snuffing out his life????

[bobbo]

Doug:

This brought tears to me eyes. Yet at the same time, it shows me the power of the human spirit in that, no matter how severely one can be opressed he can find some way, no matter how miniscule or obscure, to rise above suffering and hatred and affirm the power of Faith.

Thank you for sharing this with us.

Bobbo

[Wolf]

Great pic, Doug. But what regime are You talking about? From what I've heard, Stallin proved to be just as much a Jew lover as Hitler... : For example, I've heard stories about NKVD (was that the name during WWII?) cleaning up whatever Jews SS left...

[Bernd]

The fact that it is an Auto Union kinda makes me think it was the Nazis Wolf ;)

[Kerb Bouncer]

Wolf:

To quote the contemporary philosopher Townsend: "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
Does it matter ?

[FucF1]

Excellent picture.

Reminds me of an story I read once (very sketchy on the details but the basic facts are correct) an allied fighter was engaged in a dogfight over Europe when one of the German planes managed to get a shot at him, a long burst of which some impacted his plane....but didn't explode.

Managing to disengage he returned to the base where his groundcrew pulled a number of the enemy shell casings out of the airframe, most were empty except for one which contained a small note, in Polish I think, it was taken away to be translated and was found to read "This is all we can do for you Now"

Some brave person in a slave-labour factory was deliberatly reducing the quality of the ammunition, even to the extent of removing the explosive entirely, and they had slipped the note into one of the shells.......

[Liam]

Historicaly accurate or not in Schindlers List , Oscar does say that he will fire the foreman if the factory ever produces a shell that can actually be fired.

[dbw]

ok..not so chilling but interesting nonetheless....a long time ago i got hold of a 1.5 riley 6,[stelvio i think..actually the third 6 cyl chassis]...it looked original and untouched. upon complete dissasembly, the chassis rails looked unmarked and unmolested[tho a bit rusty here and there..] off to the sandblaster and when i picked it up and looked at it in good light i saw a number of holes in the rails that had been welded and filed smooth..odd i thought...but upon further examination, it seems that in the construction of the chassis. large prick punch marks had been made on the top edge of the rails to locate the position of the appropriate crossmember....wellll, it seems that on this chassis the mark was to indicate the leading edge of the crossmember....perhaps the work day ended at the rear transmission support and off to the pub..needless to say the tranny support was fixed,drilled and hot riveted with the punch marks at the trailing edge....i can only assume the frame was completed and on to component installation....well,guess what! then measured,the welded holes were the exact same pattern[showing signs of rivets installed] as the crossmember execept the width of the crossmember farther to the front....so some poor bugger had to chisel off the rivets,reposition the crossmember,drill it ,and re-rivet it and weld up the offending holes....a bit of stove enamel and who's to know.....just another bad day at the factory.

i'm not sure that in the late twenties that riley was not subcontracting chassis rails out.....this would have made it ever more funny if the assembly guys found the mistake partway thru on a rolling chassis as they lowered the engine/transmission and had to do it themselves,cursing the subs all the way.

[Breadmaster]

The most chilling things in motorsport.....
1) finding the mpeg of Tom Pryce's crash on the internet
2) watching senna killed on live tv.....
3) ok any fatal crash....

[FEV]

Great find Doug and thanks a lot for sharing it I think you have a "proverb" in English saying "every picture tells a story", this one is touching to say the least...

[rdrcr]

"A picture is worth a thousand words... "

This is one of them.

It must have been quite errie when you discovered this symbol of defiance.

Thanks for sharing Doug.

[FEV]

"A picture is worth a thousand words... "

Yes this one fits better ! Thanks Richard.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Wolf
Great pic, Doug. But what regime are You talking about? From what I've heard, Stallin proved to be just as much a Jew lover as Hitler...

Yes Wolf - agreed absolutely, but as Bernd points out there was precious little about a partial scrap German heckmotor likely to be considered iconic by some poor soul from the gulags, in comparison to some poor soul a few years earlier being worked to death in a Silesian saltmine - or wherever it was that the cars had been placed to survive the bombing. I just found the whole thing remarkably touching, placing the shallow little sideshow of Grand Prix racing in stark perspective relative to what was going on contemporarily 'in the real world'.

On the whole - as you may have noticed - I do prefer to err on the shallow side...

DCN

[Ross Stonefeld]

Seems a bit odd. For some reason I have this image of Auto Union parts being fairly high end construction, ie not just any machine shop where just anyone works in it. You know? So I guess maybe im surprised to imagine a 'substandard' human working on their pride and joy.

[MichaelJP]

Ross, I think the implication is that the Auto Unions were stored in a saltmine during the war to protect them from bombing and that's when the Star of David was scored on them.

Maybe Doug could clarify? I'm certainly not sure of the details of what happened to these cars post 1939?

- Michael

[No27]

Recently, the most chilling thing I saw was the Burti-accident, last year on Spa. I really thought he was gone and it lasted three days till the awfull feeling had left.

[Enkei]

Anyone mentioned Tom Pryce yet, the accident was horrible, the pictures are very shocking. But it's part of motorsport. I don't think you want to see the vid or the pics though...

[deangelis86]

Originally posted by Enkei
Anyone mentioned Tom Pryce yet

Yes - it's been mentioned on here more times that I'd care to mention, and I've personally got really sick and tired of seeing this morbid fascination about Pryce's headless corpse being displayed in all it's full glory here in the Nostalgia forurm.

[eldougo]

YES Enkie that photo,s of tom pryce is the most chilling i have seen for
many years,it,s a shame that it happened to him ,when you see an hear of
other people in this sport an nothing ever happenes to them.

[Enkei]

Originally posted by deangelis86


Yes - it's been mentioned on here more times that I'd care to mention, and I've personally got really sick and tired of seeing this morbid fascination about Pryce's headless corpse being displayed in all it's full glory here in the Nostalgia forurm.

It was a really tragic accident that could have been easily avoided but it happend. It's part of the sport, there will always be accidents like that, you're never 100% safe in a race car. Luckily safety has improved strongly over the past few years. But I don't think it's wrong to see the video, because it's part of the sport, it's part of history. Making pics of the body separated from the head is absolutely insane ofcourse. It's not entertainment... It depends on how you watch the video, I can imagine people want to see it because they're curious, and want to know what happend. I don't think that is wrong. When you are watching the video only because you find it entertaining, you're absolutely wrong

[David McKinney]

It is of course a matter of personal choice
I have not viewed the clip and don't intend to

[GBORSARI]

The most chilling thing I have ever seen is in a CART race a few years ago when Jacques T-Boned into that Japanese guy's car. I thought I just saw a dead man ! wow, I was shocked and scared. Then, by a miracle, both lived. The replays of Zanardi's crash were bad, but by the time I saw them, I had already know what happened !

Mark

[Breadmaster]

re: Tom Pryce

I believe it is important to remember Tom and those others (Walter Koenigg etc) unfortunate to be killed or seriously injured at a meeting to keep thier memories alive and to remind modern F1 fans that their clean-cut safe sport was not always that way.

[ensign14]

Helmuth Koinigg (sp?), Breadmaster - wasn't Walter Koenig in Star Trek or suchlike?

[Kerb Bouncer]

Apologies, Wolf,reading my remarks again, I did not mean to be so flip. It is very human to find a way to express yourself when facing the greyness of a dictatorship. As Stephen Amborse observed, a large number of German bombs and shells were duds, a clear example of the way those laboring for the Nazi regime expressed themselves. There are examples from the Soviet Union as well.

This photo may not have been as chilling as crash footage where a life was lost, but the Star of David hammered into that Auto Union, or was it a DAWM?, represents the triumph of humanity over machinery. And how many of us admire the drivers, constructors, and others in motorsports who, beyond their skills and victories, are honorable human beings, first ?

[MrAerodynamicist]

Following the less than orthadoc piutstop for JPM today, I was reminded of the time when the mechanic David Luckett was caught between the two arrows of Stohr & Patrese. Not so much the accident itself but Stohr's reaction to the (mistaken) belief that he's just killed him.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Kerb Bouncer
This photo may not have been as chilling as crash footage where a life was lost, but the Star of David hammered into that Auto Union, or was it a DAWM?,

No this symbol appeared on the carburettor of - not DAWM - nor indeed DAMW - but one of the perfectly genuine AUs brought out of Russia by Paul Karassik - restored by Crosthwaite & Gardiner; one resides today with Audi, the other still with Karassik I believe in Florida unless he's found his dream of another megabucks buyer. Absolutely NOT to be confused with the C&G Auto Onion replicars...nor the Donington East German confection.

DCN

[Option1]

It's a shame this thread got somewhat side-tracked onto racing accidents and driver deaths. I'd venture to suggest that some of the contributors may not have even read the thread before posting, which is a shame.

Certainly the picture posted by Doug puts so much of what we love about motorsport into stark contrast with what goes on in the wider world. I don't for one moment decry remembering those great (and not-so-great) drivers that have died in the pursuit of their sport, but the photo that leads this thread off puts their deaths in context. In the end those drivers died doing what they loved, others do not always have the same choices.

Truly a chilling and memorable photo!

Neil

[Breadmaster]

Originally posted by ensign14
Helmuth Koinigg (sp?), Breadmaster - wasn't Walter Koenig in Star Trek or suchlike?

oops you are right - he played checkov (sp?)

helmuth indeed....

My apologies Option1 but i find driver deaths chilling and horrible and nasty....which is exactly what the thread says. I know of no similar story to the one told by Doug so I told one I knew about...so maybe instead of slagging us off you'd like to contribute something worthwhile instead?

cheers!

[Option1]

Originally posted by Breadmaster


oops you are right - he played checkov (sp?)

helmuth indeed....

My apologies Option1 but i find driver deaths chilling and horrible and nasty....which is exactly what the thread says. I know of no similar story to the one told by Doug so I told one I knew about...so maybe instead of slagging us off you'd like to contribute something worthwhile instead?

cheers!

Clearly you didn't comprehend my post, but you certainly illustrate my point.

Neil

[Bernd]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Yes Wolf - agreed absolutely, but as Bernd points out there was precious little about a partial scrap German heckmotor likely to be considered iconic by some poor soul from the gulags, in comparison to some poor soul a few years earlier being worked to death in a Silesian saltmine - or wherever it was that the cars had been placed to survive the bombing. I just found the whole thing remarkably touching, placing the shallow little sideshow of Grand Prix racing in stark perspective relative to what was going on contemporarily 'in the real world'.

On the whole - as you may have noticed - I do prefer to err on the shallow side...

DCN

I would disagree with the salt mine theory Doug. The Nazis very quickly learned that the enviroment in the mines wreaked havoc with machinery to the point of rendering it completely inoperable. Of course I could be wrong though.

Regardless it is a truly profound image and I thank you very much for posting it.

[Gil Bouffard]

Chilling and Absurd!

Two cases I witnessed at the Hockenheimring, late '70s early '80s.

Both involved "photographers." (my quotes).

A woman "photographer,"laying on the ground on the outside of the first turn on the start of a Formula Two race to get a dramatic shot. She was run over and lost her legs!

A "photographer," at a Deutsche Turenwagen Meisterschaft (DTM) race, standing behind the styrofoam blocks at the end of the long straight before the first turn into the stadium (also the runoff area for the cars) as the cars came into the stadium on the first lap! Luckily a marshal got him out of there before anything could happen. I was over by the Sachs Kurve just screaming!

Gil

[LCA]

My wife drives an Audi and this photo made me stop and think about that for quite a bit. Such a dark history implied here - could someone explain exactly how and when this mark could have been made and in what context? I still don't have a clear understanding...

[MrAerodynamicist]

LCA, I think it goes: The car was pre-war. Then during the war it was stored somewhere, probabily in the corner of some factory. At some point during the war, the factory used the jews as slave labour and one of them make the mark on the car.

[LCA]

Originally posted by MrAerodynamicist
LCA, I think it goes: The car was pre-war. Then during the war it was stored somewhere, probabily in the corner of some factory. At some point during the war, the factory used the jews as slave labour and one of them make the mark on the car.

Thanks.

[josh.lintz]

In this case, he who laughed last, laughed best.
(But I certainly hope it was very quiet laughter...)