Jump to content


Photo

Deutschlandring & Goodwood


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 16 July 2002 - 12:51

Well, back to work today after spending wonderful days at Goodwood... I surely miss the eardrum-piercing racket of all those great cars. Tried to recreate that paddock atmosphere this morning, revving my car to redline in the parking lot, but I guess I've got too few cylinders and to much exhaust piping :rotfl:

Anyway, talking with other TNFers about German motorsport history over several pints has left me searching for more information on the mysterious Großdeutschlandring. And it turns out to be an amazing circuit! The ring, built in the late '30s, was supposed to replace the Nürburgring. It's a twisting set of roads and streets around the town of Hohnstein, south of Dresden. This area, called the Sächsische Schweiz ('Saxionan Switzerland'), offers a beautiful scenery with lots of steep hills and narrow valleys.

The roads form a ring of exactly 10 kilometres, with the surrounding area being developed to accomodate a million spectators. Also, there was parking space for 350.000 vehicles available, since it was determined that people from all over Germany should be able to reach it easily. Be it by train or using the autobahns Eisenach-Dresden-Görlitz (now A4), Berlin-Dresden (now A13) or Dresden-Prague (planned in the 1930s, currently being built as A17).

In 1933, work on the ring started and it was completed on the 26th of april 1939. First races were planned for 1940, but of course these never happened.

Now to the best part. The circuit still exists, consisting of public roads in the area. It is frequently used as a velodrome, several cycle races have been held there. It also saw a lot of illegal car and motorcycle racing, which got completely out of hand after the wall came down and the locals startet to buy fast cars and kamikaze-bikes. Accidents were more or less put to rest in 1997 when the local police installed several speed traps and speed bumps. Yet it still appears to be an insider's tip for many bikers in Germany.

So - anyone want to organise an event sporting classic 1939-1940 Mercs, Alfas and Auto Unions on this track? :)

Advertisement

#2 ehagar

ehagar
  • Member

  • 7,759 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 17 July 2002 - 09:01

Hmmm.... you probably already found this, but:

http://www.deutschla...amensweihe.html

using a translator....

It may have meant for many one large surprise when on the 27 April (1939 d. R.) the wireless service reported over all German transmitters, that on the 26 April the vehicle race track approaching your completion in the Elbgebirge in Hohnstein that took „Germany-ring“ lent became. Now it remains however in no way in this first surprise. The view of this Bauvorhabens and the first overview over the plan and meaning of the Germany-wrestle yield an only chain of surprises that give again occasion to allergrößten expectations. A model was produced by the new race track, is possible at hand its an exact overview. It shows impressively the stretch progress, the change of straight lines and curves, of rise and descent.

Therewith a langgehegter wish of all of that in fulfillment goes participating in was previously impossible, which as a result of that to large spatial distances of the Nürburgringes one a large international Automobilrennen. That applies in special manner to the extraordinarily large number of the kraftfahrsportbegeisterten saxon. It would be remembered here, greeted appeared were that in that „for motorcycles 1938“ on the saxon ring over 300.000 spectator to price of Europe.

The central situation of the Germany-wrestle alone lets on that close that all racing will obtain on this course spectator number, how they have been reached previously also only approximately. That just also hereupon in the building special consideration was taken, follows from that that millions of spectator can find without difficulties at the race track place. 350.000 motor vehicle and power wheels can park in next vicinity of the race track. That to and departure possibilities become on the most careful considered and completed. After completion of the total plan, also a connection will be created at the empire freeway planned in direct vicinity. That is straight for the empire capital of largest importance. The connection of Berlin to the Germany-ring will be fast and comfortable therefore for the motorist and for the railroad trips. Large the number of the visitors will be alone already out of Dresden, that lies with over 600.000 inhabitants in the vicinity of the race track. But also out of the so thickly populated remaining saxon, the metropolises Leipzig, Chemnitz, Plauen and Zwickau thousands become and however thousands visitor come. The favorable driveway possibilities out of all parts of the empire will contribute considerably in addition to make the Germany-ring to a head attraction point for all Kraftfahrsportbegeisterte.

In the building of the Germany-the experiences, that were made in all other race track, became wrestle considered. So the experiences became of the Mehalla-train in Tripolis, that Montléry-train in Paris, that Monza-train in Italy and the Nürburgringes especially notes.



The train has a width of 12 meters. The width of the curves amounts to until more than 20 meters. Unique and totally is new that this shows race course the exact length of 10 kilometers.



In Hohburkersdorf, a two kilometer of long and 24 meters of straight line wide emerged as a runway. 3 kilometers of the stretch can be surveyed by the head platform planned here. The heights difference total amounts to 532 meters. The largest rise lies in the 16 serpentines of the Polenztal to the squat position stone. The start place lies about 400 meters over NN. The place Hohburkersdorf becomes high bridge überquert through a 12 meter. The course can be divided into four large sections: first the high area in Hohburkersdorf; secondly departure into the Polenztal; third Talstrecke along the Polenz and fourth mountain stretch at the Hocksteinmassiv.



A trip over the finished Germany-ring lets only suspect, emerged which shocking Erdbewegungen had to be carried out until this ideal race course in the mountainous terrain. Alone in the Polenztal at the Heeselicht-mill, a powerful Felsriff had to be removed. Compressed air-more drilling and explosive material have for month this powerful Felsriff worked. Over 30.000 cubic meter pack warehouse, and over 15.000 cubic meter granite crushed rock became here broken. This hard Lausitzer Garanit was used for the total substructure of the race track. Now the Felsriff disappeared. At its place, a powerful rock face to the mountain height juts. A far swung curve leads at its along.

In Europe, perhaps in the world more unique race course.



It should believe niemend that it concerns a phrase, if said becomes, in the Elbgebirge emerged and emerges „Europe most modern car race track“. 6 years long became in all quiet constructed. Now the Germany-ring not becomes finished – and also. It is the will unconditional of the creators that this building of the future belongs. So becomes intelligibly, that the extension of the Germany-wrestle in no way concluded is if for the first time the race vehicles will hunt over the course. On the basis of the experiences and observations, that are made in the first racing, the final extension of the stretch will result. In the course of the next years at the most suitable places, extensive buildings are erected. At the runway on the plateau in Hohburkerdorf, the boxes of the racer, that constructed Mondays-halls of the industry, large massive platforms, a press platform, language place for the broadcast and reception places for the newsreel, become. At the head platform, an Untertunnelung of the race track is created for the streets Rathewalde- Zeschnig. Through it it will become possible to reach wrestle the Innenfeld the without bridges crossing of the race track. A further car street into the Innenfeld the wrestle furthermore is created under the large bridge, over that the race course leads where the place Hohburkersdorf lies to both pages of the course.



The final state of the streets cover also first is decided if the experiences of the first racing exist. The first large Wagenrennen in saxon is expedited 1940. That not naturally should be named that 1940 in saxon would be expedited to the allerersten time a Wagenrennen. Alone at the motoring interested are familiar the Bergrennen in spaces village in the Zittauer mountains, the racing on the maintenance man mountain street, and if already earlier racing are mentioned, must be noted name as well as grill castle, Moritzburg, Marienberg, high stone-Ernstthal, Zittau etc. Saxon was from the beginning strongly at the motoring involved. In the course of the years in saxon of Europe, best known motorcycle-race track of that emerged „saxon ring“, in Chenmitz. On this race track, that is expedited „large price for motorcycles“. 1936 were were at that „saxon ring“ 240.000 spectator, 1937 it 210.000, and 1938 took at the large Europe price on that „saxon ring“ 300.000 spectator part. These numbers represent records. It is remarkable, what wrote the periodical „the motorcycle“ to the racing on the saxon ring once: „Berlin not lies in saxon where a Motorradrennen presses each other sport at the wall. It only is entitled, greeted transferred if one that „price of Germany“ again and again after the saxon ring, is is the sport enthusiasm there yet unique!“ this honest and professional recognition of the situation very important. Out of its out one can recognize, take place becomes about a Wagenrennen under which share name on that „Germany-ring“. One needs to be no prophet, in order to be able to say that each Wagenrennen becomes to show have on that „Germany-rings success, how it scarcely the boldest optimists imagine. If in the year 1940 the first large Wagenrennen becomes gone on that „Germany-ring“, and therewith in saxon,, it will appear that this ring exceeds all other, and that of that is „Germany-ring“ the vehicle race track of the continent. What hope and supposition hays is, will be then proved and irrefutable fact. The first large day of this race track at that the best drivers of the nations on the fastest vehicle of the world around the victory fight become, will be a gigantic event and carry the name „Germany-ring“ over all continents. The Germany-ring has 35 curves to show, whose narrowest has a radius of only 15 meters. The curves became in the maximum breadth inclination, 8 v. H., constructed. Through it largest speeds in the curves are enabled in slightest threat of the drivers. The strongest rise amounts to 11 v. H. The deepest place the in the Polenztal with 180 meters sea height is located wrestle and the highest place on the plateau in Hohburkersdorf with about 400 meters sea height. The bridge that overstretches the place Hohburkersdorf is about 50 meters long, 12 meters extend and 12 meters highly. The continuation the start and goal-straight lines the bridge of Hohburkersdorf, at which the large bow closes itself in Stürza, forms. This bow between Hohburkersdorf and the Einmündung into the Polenztal enabled the lengths attitude exact on the meter. Nowhere elsewhere the mountainous terrain would have given the possibility to bring the ring on the exact length of 10 kilometers. Following show that the ring in completed manner was inserted into the landscape, and that are avoided became all unnatural hindrances, both numbers: 110.000 cubic meter Erdbewegungen, 30.000 cubic meter rock denudations. Of the width the one gets wrestle immediately a correct presentation if one requisitions the Nürburgring to the comparison. The Nürburgring has a width of 8 meters to show. That „Germany-ring“ is 12 meters wide. The largest width reaches that „Germany-ring“ in the upper curve at the squat position stone with 24 meters.



Each view over that „Germany-ring“ is imperfect, that at the scenic beauties of the race track past goes. The race ring lies in the middle of the wundervollen Elbgebirges, that named an incorrect romanticism „saxon Switzerland,“. The world-famous Basteigebiet with its bizarre rock world lies wrestle in the ban circle the. To the well known spas Wehlen, Rathen, bath Schandau at the Elbe it only few car minutes are. Two castles throne over the ring: the castle Hohnstein and castle Stolpen. Of the platform at the runway, the view passes far over the country, in the north: to the castle Stolpen and to East to the Valtenberg in the Oberlausitz and the dance plan in the Sudetenland. Proudly in next vicinity, the castle Hohnstein looms. Elbwärts raise terminate itself boldly and powerfully the festivals king stone, the lily stone and in the horizon the snow mountains and up there in the Erzgebirge of the Geisingberg the wundervolle panorama. All around a picture of sublime beauty.



Soon becomes – so may one yet with right say – Europe more lately and at the same time prettiest and most ideal race course completed become be. Soon there the Motore will sing its ehernes song between mountains and castles. The best racers of the nations will measure its ability and its powers on the fastest machines of the world. After hard fights, the triumphant flag in the mountain wind of sore becomes – far announcing, who victor was in the fight for sporting honor!



#3 ehagar

ehagar
  • Member

  • 7,759 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 17 July 2002 - 09:08

Is this the track?

http://www.silhouet....s/hohenste.html

Doesn't look like the pictures on the other website..... the silhouet link must be the wrong track....

Some interesting pictures...

The profile:

http://www.deutschla...ckenprofil.html

A few pics:

http://www.deutschla...e/der_ring.html
http://www.deutschla...e/die_lage.html
http://www.deutschla...de/kurve_8.html

Castle Hohnstein

http://www.oberelbe....hnstei/main.htm


This place deserves the GPL treatment...


#4 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 17 July 2002 - 09:17

Maybe the contents of this thread could be merged with the 'Suppose World War 2 hadn't happened' thread, which had just arrived at the Grossdeutschlandring...

#5 Darren Galpin

Darren Galpin
  • Member

  • 2,322 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 17 July 2002 - 09:31

The Hohenstein-Ernstthal track was used in 1934, before the Deutschlandring was constructed (see the link above, go to the link to multimap provided by Vitesse2 to see the map). There may be some confusion as Hohnstein is located near the Deutschlandring.

#6 byrkus

byrkus
  • Member

  • 1,011 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 17 July 2002 - 10:09

The track (Hohenstein), which ehagar thought is the Deutschlandring, is actually Sachsenring. Compare the two pics:

http://www.silhouet....s/hohenste.html

http://www.silhouet....acks/sachs2.jpg

Looks like the same to me...;)

#7 ehagar

ehagar
  • Member

  • 7,759 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 17 July 2002 - 10:33

Originally posted by byrkus


Looks like the same to me...;)


:blush:

I should know better.... should never post at 3 am.... knew something was wrong but the brain didn't kick in...

#8 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 17 July 2002 - 10:34

Vitesse2 actually has a plain and simple track map of the (Gross)Deutschlandring, which is easier on the eye than the "map" on www.deutschlandring.de (a relatively new site still under construction). I'm sure he would have nothing against posting it...

#9 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 17 July 2002 - 14:53

The Hohenstein-Ernstthal track is indeed the Sachsenring, near Chemnitz. The town of Hohnstein near the Deutschlandring is further to the east, between Dresden and the Czech border.

#10 David J Jones

David J Jones
  • Member

  • 448 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 18 July 2002 - 07:31

Brun

This Sunday the German motorcycle GP is being held at the Sachsenring - is this the same place?

Where is it in relation to the Deutschlandring?

#11 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 18 July 2002 - 08:41

David: it's the same place (Hohenstein-Ernstthal) but not the same track...

The 'new' Sachsenring (which is in a dire financial state as well, just as the nearby Lausitzring) is based around the roads of a Traffic Education & Road Safety Center that started in 1995 (see www.sachsenring.de) with a huge loop attached to it in 1996 (see www.sachsenring-circuit.com) to make it a suitable international motorsport venue.

After German reunification the old road circuit was reopened but there would be only one race in 1990, after which the roads were declared unsuitable for racing.

#12 Darren Galpin

Darren Galpin
  • Member

  • 2,322 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 18 July 2002 - 09:14

The Sachsenring used today is in the same place, but is a modern version of the old circuit - much shorter, and purpose built.

#13 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 18 July 2002 - 09:40

Vitesse2 was so kind as to scan the article on the proposed Grossdeutschlandring in the August '39 issue of The Autocar. I've put it up on 8W so you can have a look at it.

The article: http://8w.forix.com/...schlandring.jpg
And just to please Darren, a big-size track map picture: http://8w.forix.com/...chlandring2.jpg