Jump to content


Photo

Motor Sport magazine's 'Greatest All-Rounders' list


  • Please log in to reply
79 replies to this topic

#1 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 18 January 2003 - 17:54

In another of what seems a steady diet of "Greatest Something" features, the folks at Haymarket's Motor Sports unleashed yet another such list in their January issue. I think my stance on these sorts of things is well known, but they seem to be an unavoidable fact of life.

The "jury" for this selection was: Bill Boddy, Adam Cooper, Gordon Cruickshank, John Davenport, Andrew Frankel, Paul Fearnley, Alan Henry, Mark Hughes, Preton Lerner, David Malsher, Nigel Roebuck, and Simon Taylor. I just thought that this was an interesting group used to poll those belonging to this category. Then again, I suppose the obvious response is, "Well, it IS a British magazine...!!!"

Their list of "The Greatest All-Rounders" went like this:

No. 20 -- Al Unser, Jr.
No. 19 -- Graham Hill
No. 18 -- Jean Ragnotti
No. 17 -- Tony Stewart
No. 16 -- Olivier Gendebien
No. 15 -- Walter Rohrl
No. 14 -- Jackie Stewart
No. 13 -- Gerard Larrouse
No. 12 -- John Surtees
No. 11 -- Tazio Nuvolari
No. 10 -- Mark Donohue
No. 9 -- A.J. Foyt, Jr.
No. 8 -- Juan Manuel Fanio
No. 7 -- Parnelli Jones
No. 6 -- Dan Gurney
No. 5 -- Jacky Ick
No. 4 -- Vic Elford
No. 3 -- Jim Clark
No. 2 -- Mario Andretti
No. 1 -- Stirling Moss

More than few names on the list or not included on the list raised my eyebrows more than a tad. While I am not very concerned for the most part with the ordinal aspects of such lists -- an opinion is exactly that, an opinion -- I find that I am interested in the overall group. Some of those selected I am a bit surprised by since while they were perhaps very good "all-rounders," I would be very hesitant to use the word "great" when addressing their abilities in this category.

I think that they left off the other "Al Unser" because I think that he would be a very deserving candidate in my book. Where's Lloyd Ruby? This is a non-selection that I find difficult to fathom. I mean, he is easily the equal of Donohue, Surtees, Jones, and Gurney when it comes to being able to step into anything and drive it competitively.

Anyway, if nothing else, another topic to mull over during the Winter weeks.

Advertisement

#2 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 70,106 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 18 January 2003 - 18:15

No. 17 -- Tony Stewart

Someone wake me up when he races againts a competitive road racing grid. NASCAR races dont count. He's an oval guy so whats so impressive? He started in sprints and midgets and ran the IRL (granted when it was at its weakest) before NASCAR. Thats no more impressive than any other winning NASCAR driver. Only difference between Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart was Jeff doesnt have any IRL miles. I recall Tony's pairing last year(?) with Jan Lammers at Daytona and people were trying to be as diplomatic as possible about his road racing craft. He's also a complete brat.

Swap him with Robby Gordon for my tastes. Robby's won in NASCAR, CART, almost the Indy500, has done endurance racing, off road, everyhing short of drag racing and F1.



No. 2 -- Mario Andretti

Should be #1. He's done everything competitively except maybe rally (he might have done that too)

No. 1 -- Stirling Moss

I feel like if he had done US oval racing, specifically some stuff on dirt, he'd be #1. Ergo Andretti

#3 Ralliart

Ralliart
  • Member

  • 669 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 18 January 2003 - 19:17

I don't know if he'd make a top 20 list but Hans Stuck:
won races in F2, DRM, DTM, IMSA GT, IMSA Supercar, ITC, Porsche Supercar, Interseries, ALMS. He won Le Mans twice, raced F1 for six seasons scoring 29 points, won the DTM championship, won the Spa 24 Hrs, won the DRM series, won the 'Ring 24 Hrs thrice, so...more than proficient in: F1, F2, sports cars, touring cars - maybe not enough for a top 20. I personally feel that Walter Rohrl and Vic Elford deserved better positions in the group.

#4 Bladrian

Bladrian
  • Member

  • 1,491 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 18 January 2003 - 19:44

I can NOT believe that august crowd of muttering rotters left Brian Redman out of that list. Hell, he's got more true all-round experience than half the people on that list, and he's still adding to it!

F'goodness sake.

#5 Frank S

Frank S
  • Member

  • 2,162 posts
  • Joined: September 02

Posted 18 January 2003 - 19:55

I'm at a loss to explain the appearance of Tony Stewart and Al, Jr., on this list. If they merit mention at that level, where is Rick Mears? Must be some sprint/midget bonus points operating. Mears was an off-road champ, which should count as much, I think, and special allowance for four Indy wins.

I would promote Surtees on the basis of his motorcycling achievements.

#6 Joe Fan

Joe Fan
  • Member

  • 5,591 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 18 January 2003 - 19:57

This list is better than their greatest drivers type lists in the past but it is typically slanted from the European perspective as usual. They need to pass these lists by some knowledgable American motorsports fans/writers first before submitting them and having us laugh at some of their omissions. Mario should be #1 as he won in sports cars, Grand Prix cars, Indy Cars, NASCAR, sprint cars and won on natural road courses, street circuits, flat paved ovals, banked paved ovals, dirt ovals.....am I missing any?

A glaring and unforgivable omission is Danny Ongais who won in NHRA drag races, sports car races, Indy car races, and competed in a few F1 races as well. Read all him at: http://www.nhra.com/...d_ongais39.html

Others that should have been on the list with some of the names that are on theirs are:

Curtis Turner who was one of the greatest dirt drivers of all-time and internationally known for being the master of the dirt-track power slide. He wasn't bad on paved courses either and competed in sports car races on occasion and turned a lot of heads with his performance in the Carerra Panamerica, which is similar to rally racing.

Pedro Rodriguez-sports cars, F1, and few NASCAR starts.

Walt Hansgen-sports cars and a few starts in F1, NASCAR and the Indy 500.

Robby Gordon-Off-Road racing, CART, IRL, NASCAR and set the fastest time of any driver at last years Michelin Race of Champions in a Rally-type car.

Also, A.J. Foyt should be in the top five somewhere and ranking Fangio over him on an all-around list is laughable.

#7 ehagar

ehagar
  • Member

  • 7,731 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 18 January 2003 - 20:23

Just to put my typical motorcycle slant on the world... how about:

Paul Goldsmith. A leading American Motorcycle rider in the 40s and 50s. Won 5 AMA nationals from 52-55. Won the Daytona 200 on a Harley against the dominate Nortons. Eventually retired from bikes to compete in Nascar and Indycar. Finished 3rd at the 1960 Indianapolis 500. He was a regualar Nascar winner.

I bet the people making the list never even heard of him.

#8 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 18 January 2003 - 21:36

As I said, lots of excellent choices seemed to get overlooked -- all those mentioned so far are good examples of the caliber of drivers overlooked by the panel. Paul Goldsmith and Curtis Turner are just two superb examples of folks who would make my list. Ditto of Brian Redman, Danny Ongais, Robby Gordon, and the others mentioned. I would very much quibble about the low rating given John Surtees. And what about Joe Leonard?

#9 kabouter

kabouter
  • Member

  • 163 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 18 January 2003 - 23:28

Maybe some great and deserving American drivers were left out, but were is Lucien Bianchi? Great in both sports cars and rallying, and not exactly slow in single-seaters...

#10 Vicuna

Vicuna
  • Member

  • 1,607 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 19 January 2003 - 00:10

Jim Richards:

Touring cars
Sports cars
Speedway - dirt
NASCAR - Aussie style
Rallying
Sports sedans

All that's missing is single seaters but he did by an Matich when past its used by date and was not disgraced.

Not just a contender for the top 20, but the top 10!

#11 Jim Thurman

Jim Thurman
  • Member

  • 7,243 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 19 January 2003 - 05:15

While it's nice to see a nod to U.S. and oval tracking...I'll echo Tony Stewart ???

First, so much stock is put in winning the three USAC titles in the same year (Sprints, Midgets, Silver Crown - the old style Champ Dirt cars)...but even the Indianapolis newspaper didn't let localism stand in their way in pointing out this was overhyped because it literally wasn't possible for a driver to hit enough races in all three classes to win the championships prior to that season. They noted it took "fortuitous scheduling" to allow Stewart to win all three. That's why it's overblown. Guys like Pancho Carter or Rich Vogler probably could have pulled off all three in a year...had they had a chance! The schedules used to have a Champ Dirt race in the daytime, Midget race the same night and Sprint Car race the night before...sometimes scattered across three different time zones. The fact that guys like Carter, Vogler, Jimmy Caruthers and a few others used to be able to make two of the three races on a given weekend is incredible...but they were forced to pick and choose (Carter and Vogler did win two of the three in the same season).

And Stewart's PR handlers (one an ex-ESPN employee who was his "manager") concocted and went full bore in marketing him as "the most versatile driver" From day one, they hyped and pitched unique and unusual achievements for him (much as they had previously for Jeff Gordon). I remember the season before, the goal was to have Stewart go for "the unprecedented feat of winning championships in both the USAC National Midget and USAC Western States Midget in the same season." There's a lot I could add on that whole fiasco, but I won't get into it right now.

As a wise man once said: "Don't believe the hype." It's disappointing to see the MotorSport panel fall into that.

So, while it's nice to see them pick a solely oval racer...I can think of so many others much more deserving...who did it on their own, not via pre-conceived, carefully crafted marketing ploys.

And, obviously, there is a dearth of drivers outside of those who went to Europe, with Australia being most sorely overlooked. I'm sure TNF's Australian members will have some good candidates.

As Don pointed out, Joe Leonard was the first name that came to mind. Paul Goldsmith, Robby Gordon, Al Unser Sr., Brian Redman Lloyd Ruby...Rick Mears. All good choices.

Rick Mears finished 2nd or 3rd in a Daytona IMSA race and people forget how good he was at road racing before his catastrophic foot injuries. He's thought of as "oval only", which is too bad and off the mark (and like revisionism on Clark - it's perceived his success was all car/team). And his off-road racing success was both in short course and long distance events (I'm compiling Ascot race winners and Rick only lost two Buggy races there in a two year span - and one of those he skipped to run Pike's Peak).

Perhaps, not as high, but I'll nominate a truly underrated U.S. racer - Jerry Hansen.

And other good all arounders (albeit not reaching the absolute heights) : Roger Mears, John Cannon, Jon Woodner. All won in an impressive array of equipment and drove competitively in even more.

I'll give details on them later, but this is long enough for now :D


Jim Thurman

#12 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 19 January 2003 - 11:24

Originally posted by Joe Fan
This list is better than their greatest drivers type lists in the past but it is typically slanted from the European perspective as usual. They need to pass these lists by some knowledgable American motorsports fans/writers first before submitting them and having us laugh at some of their omissions. Mario should be #1 as he won in sports cars, Grand Prix cars, Indy Cars, NASCAR, sprint cars and won on natural road courses, street circuits, flat paved ovals, banked paved ovals, dirt ovals.....am I missing any?

Pikes Peak, dirt champ cars, midgets, modifieds...

What about Henri Farman? Bicycles and aeroplanes as well...

#13 David Beard

David Beard
  • Member

  • 4,997 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 19 January 2003 - 11:32

Originally posted by Don Capps
The "jury" for this selection was: Bill Boddy, Adam Cooper, Gordon Cruickshank, John Davenport, Andrew Frankel, Paul Fearnley, Alan Henry, Mark Hughes, Preton Lerner, David Malsher, Nigel Roebuck, and Simon Taylor. I just thought that this was an interesting group used to poll those belonging to this category. Then again, I suppose the obvious response is, "Well, it IS a British magazine...!!!"


Given that you don't think much of the geographical location of the judging panel, I would have thought you would have been well pleased with the high American content of the "Greatest List", Don.

By the way, who the heck is Tony Stewart, anyway?;)

#14 petefenelon

petefenelon
  • Member

  • 4,815 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 19 January 2003 - 17:42

Originally posted by Don Capps
In another of what seems a steady diet of "Greatest Something" features, the folks at Haymarket's Motor Sports unleashed yet another such list in their January issue. I think my stance on these sorts of things is well known, but they seem to be an unavoidable fact of life.


Fearnley's taken Motorsport relentlessly downmarket over the past year or so. The editorial philosophy seems to be "I'll blag a test drive in whatever I can find and we must make sure we feature at least two of Moss, Senna, Clark, Fangio or Chapman most months". Still worth it for the LAT photos, but the text is getting dumber and dumber.

Nicely illustrated feature on seventies privateers this month - quite a few "familiar objects in unfamiliar paintjobs" :)


pete

#15 WGD706

WGD706
  • Member

  • 956 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 19 January 2003 - 18:23

Jim
Jerry Hansen owns the record for the most SCCA Run-off Championships at 27 with a record 3 scored in 1972 - A Prod., A Sports Racing, Formula A.
What ever became of him?
Warren

#16 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,524 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 20 January 2003 - 01:01

Originally posted by Joe Fan
This list is better than their greatest drivers type lists in the past but it is typically slanted from the European perspective as usual...


From a British - as opposed to 'European' - perspective this goes only the merest fraction of the way towards correcting the imbalance of decades being flooded by pig-ignorant American-perspective tosh drummed into we poor Brits via TV and the movie screen. So where are any decent quality American-published motor sporting publications to redress the balance....????

My views on 'Motor Sport's content have been fatally skewed by the editor telling me he believed his 'Auto Union discovered in Scotland' feature story was "valid" despite the car having been such an Obvious Fake ... but I will defend them against this narrow criticism.

What I can summon no defence for is this crass formulaic policy of 'Top 20s' and '100 Best' and '50 Most Famous'.... Gawd almighty - whatever happened to imagination and creative thinking?

They're nice lads too - it's sad...

DCN

#17 WGD706

WGD706
  • Member

  • 956 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 20 January 2003 - 01:15

Originally posted by Doug Nye


So where are any decent quality American-published motor sporting publications to redress the balance....????


DCN


I'm beginning to wonder if we have any such things over here!

#18 cabianca

cabianca
  • Member

  • 712 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 20 January 2003 - 02:47

I find it interesting that the "old" Motor Sport seemed to grant this title to Reg Parnell, by acclamation, because of his record from mud trials to F1. "New" Motor Sport didn't even mention him. So much for "history." BTW, I don't quite get the mention of Jerry Hansen. To my knowledge, he raced in only one kind of race, circuit road racing. My impression of an all-rounder is one who can win in more than one discipline. The US does have an advantage in creating these, because we had more big money paying forms of racing than anywhere I can think of. Thus A.J. and Mario and others in Sprints, Champ Cars, NASCARs and road courses. With Parnelli, you can add off-road. Versions of all these existed in Europe, but in the old days, none paid like road racing.

#19 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 70,106 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 20 January 2003 - 03:28

Originally posted by Doug Nye
From a British - as opposed to 'European'


You're European, get over it



So where are any decent quality American-published motor sporting publications to redress the balance....????


Yeah its a shame we dont have anything that comes close to Autosport

Advertisement

#20 Bernd

Bernd
  • Member

  • 3,313 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 20 January 2003 - 03:35

So you're North American Ross? I guess that makes me Oceanic.

#21 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 70,106 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 20 January 2003 - 04:24

Actually there are people here who get offended when people use American as reference to United States only.

My comment is more towards the "oh we're Brits, we're not part of Europe!"

#22 Jim Thurman

Jim Thurman
  • Member

  • 7,243 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 20 January 2003 - 05:12

Originally posted by Doug Nye


From a British - as opposed to 'European' - perspective this goes only the merest fraction of the way towards correcting the imbalance of decades being flooded by pig-ignorant American-perspective tosh drummed into we poor Brits via TV and the movie screen. So where are any decent quality American-published motor sporting publications to redress the balance....???


Doug,

I wish I could disagree with you, but I can't. Quality and media are not words I usually use in the same sentence.

It's the same reason why so many people I know turned to BBC America's BBC News coverage post 9-11 so they could get some actual "news" and information.

There are plenty of these same pig-ignorant types who are just as ignorant of regions of their own country as they are of the rest of the World. I'm sure that wouldn't surprise you.

And there are people trying to redress the situation here, but against such massive (and growing) conglomerates...it's the proverbial batting one's head against the wall.

I could give you a list on motorsports alone that would curl your hair. It's like that weekly here.

Most publications here would likely rank Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart #1 and #2 in any category conceivable.


Jim Thurman

#23 Jim Thurman

Jim Thurman
  • Member

  • 7,243 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 20 January 2003 - 05:36

Replying to a couple of different posts here...

Originally posted by cabianca
BTW, I don't quite get the mention of Jerry Hansen. To my knowledge, he raced in only one kind of race, circuit road racing. My impression of an all-rounder is one who can win in more than one discipline. The US does have an advantage in creating these, because we had more big money paying forms of racing than anywhere I can think of. Thus A.J. and Mario and others in Sprints, Champ Cars, NASCARs and road courses. With Parnelli, you can add off-road. Versions of all these existed in Europe, but in the old days, none paid like road racing.


Michael,

A very good point about the U.S. having a distinct advantage in variety. Without reviewing it, I believe some of MotorSport's selections were drivers that only did circuit road racing. Hansen, won in Trans-Am, F5000 and took his F5000 Lola to the 1/2 mile paved oval at the Minnesota State Fairgrounds and won two Sprint Car main events (one USAC, one IMCA). He also won in Ice Racing. He raced in Can-Am and made a few NASCAR starts. I also believe he made at least one or two Indy Car starts on road courses. Obviously, his results aren't on a par with Parnelli, A.J. or Mario, but he did well in different disciplines.

I'll state my case for my other nominees...not that they are in the same breath as the elite, but at least successful in diverse forms of racing. I still feel Joe Leonard is the most worthy of inclusion in the top 20.

Warren, thanks for posting Hansen's Run-offs totals. I recall that year where he won the three disparate classes. To answer what he's doing, as far as I'm aware, he retired (I believe he was a stockbroker). He also owned Donnybrooke/Brainerd at one point.

Originally posted by David Beard
By the way, who the heck is Tony Stewart, anyway?;)


:lol: David. When the "mainstream" U.S. media asked Michael Schumacher about Jeff Gordon. When Schumacher said "Who's that?", many thought he was joking...some thought he was being a complete smart a-- , because surely how could he not know of Jeff Gordon?. It was absolutely inconceivable to the U.S.-centric non-racing media (many of whom probably would be hard pressed to name more than four or five drivers...current, let alone from history).


Jim Thurman

#24 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 20 January 2003 - 06:23

Originally posted by cabianca
I find it interesting that the "old" Motor Sport seemed to grant this title to Reg Parnell, by acclamation, because of his record from mud trials to F1.

Surely not. I don't think Parnell ever did trials, and if he did he wasn't very successful
The real "great all-rounder" in those days was Ken Wharton, a multiple national champion in mud-plug trials, ditto in hillclimbs, a winner in international rallying and a useful circuit racer from sportscars through 500cc F3 to F2 and F1

#25 ehagar

ehagar
  • Member

  • 7,731 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 20 January 2003 - 06:27

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

I'll state my case for my other nominees...not that they are in the same breath as the elite, but at least successful in diverse forms of racing. I still feel Joe Leonard is the most worthy of inclusion in the top 20.


Actually, looking at who he beat in USAC to be champ, it seems pretty unforgiveable to me that he wasn't.

#26 2F-001

2F-001
  • Member

  • 4,244 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 20 January 2003 - 07:30

I'm not sure of Motorsport's policy on unsolicited contributions - but maybe we could collectively submit our ''20 least unworthy journalistic endeavours'' or some such...

This theme of ''listing'' has of course swept TV in the UK recently as a cheap type of programming - but it seems to have taken Haymarket by storm too.
I think of it as ''Rank Journalism''!

#27 Bladrian

Bladrian
  • Member

  • 1,491 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 20 January 2003 - 08:02

Originally posted by 2F-001
I think of it as ''Rank Journalism''!


... or just rank bad form.

By the way - who IS Jeff Gordon?

#28 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,056 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 20 January 2003 - 09:47

Originally posted by Vicuna
Jim Richards:

Touring cars
Sports cars
Speedway - dirt
NASCAR - Aussie style
Rallying
Sports sedans

All that's missing is single seaters but he did buy a Matich when past its used by date and was not disgraced.

Not just a contender for the top 20, but the top 10!


If Richo is in, Colin Bond might rank too... especially if rallying counts for a lot of points.


Biggest difference between them is that Richo has kept it up so much longer. Colin, however, didn't run in speedway, but won in hillclimbs and Vees. Bond did only one event in F5000, I don't remember if Jim did more or not... but he coped when the wing fell off at the end of the straight at Oran Park!


I think, overall, the problem with these kinds of lists is that there are too few positions available and too many people worth considering for a place in them.

#29 rdrcr

rdrcr
  • Member

  • 2,727 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 20 January 2003 - 16:14

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld

No -- 17 Tony Stewart


Someone wake me up when he races against a competitive road racing grid. NASCAR races don't count. He's an oval guy so what's so impressive? He started in sprints and midgets and ran the IRL (granted when it was at its weakest) before NASCAR. That's no more impressive than any other winning NASCAR driver. Only difference between Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart was Jeff doesn't have any IRL miles. I recall Tony's pairing last year(?) with Jan Lammers at Daytona and people were trying to be as diplomatic as possible about his road racing craft. He's also a complete brat.

Swap him with Robby Gordon for my tastes. Robby's won in NASCAR, CART, almost the Indy500, has done endurance racing, off road, everything short of drag racing and F1.

Got to agree here... Took the words right out of my mouth... and the rankings themselves leave a bit to be desired. I mean A.J. back in 9th? and Surtees in 12th? The other candidates mentioned are better qualified than many on that list.

How come they don't pole us? It seems that we'd have a better idea about who should be on there than the "professionals"

No -- 2 Mario Andretti



Should be #1. He's done everything competitively except maybe rally (he might have done that too)


Not really rallying, but a win at Pike's Peak gets him close enough to a 'special stage' in my mind.

No 1 -- Stirling Moss


I feel like if he had done US oval racing, specifically some stuff on dirt, he'd be #1. Ergo Andretti


Yep... It would be real close between him and Foyt too for the #2 spot.

So, are they all British except for Preston Lerner? I'll have to ask Preston about this survey and perhaps he'll come in and comment on the outcome.

#30 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 20 January 2003 - 16:54

Originally posted by Bladrian
By the way - who IS Jeff Gordon?

Did a bit of taxi racing quite recently, and not too unsuccessfully, iirc...

IMHO, cabianca made a good point about the Americans growing up in an environment demanding more versatility. There's no way ANY European comes close to Andretti, Foyt, Jones or Leonard, who even did a lot of very successful motorcycle racing. Moss? Well, sports cars, monoposti and touring cars, a bit of rallying maybe... doesn't rank! Take Nuvolari, Elford, Röhrl and Surtees to fill the lower ranks, maybe Fangio and Clark.

#31 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 61,758 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 20 January 2003 - 17:33

Except Americans tended to race only Americans, Europeans raced the rest of the world... :p

#32 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 20 January 2003 - 18:04

Originally posted by ensign14
Except Americans tended to race only Americans, Europeans raced the rest of the world... :p


A "world" which was perhaps smaller than the US.... :rolleyes:

#33 David M. Kane

David M. Kane
  • Member

  • 5,402 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 20 January 2003 - 18:27

All I know is that Vic Elford was in #4, and Brian Redman wasn't even listed. I was glad to see Vic finally getting the credit he so deserves.
I am mad keen on Brian's all-around ability.

As to who from where and who sucks and who doesn't, I can only add this.
I am American, I live in Indianapolis because of the racing. Most of the
magazines I get are English, i.e. Autosport, Motor Sport, F1 Magazine
(Bernie's, only because I am trying figure the midget out!), EuroBusiness.

BUT please don't blame ALL of us for our media. I hate New York too, particularly Madison Avenue. AT LEAST we had enough sense to put Chris
Pook in charge of Champ Cars.

Is there any nation or any peoples in the world who don't hate all Americans and who don't think each and every American isn't an idiot?
How has one nation managed to piss off so many people?

#34 rdrcr

rdrcr
  • Member

  • 2,727 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 20 January 2003 - 19:02

Nice rant Dave...

But don't get duped by the 'flamers' They're just envious!

What surprises me the most is, that there isn't one wit of checking ones opinions with regard to Americans - in light of the fact that they (the overtly negative & disparaging) are posting on a BB whose servers are located in America. Whose founding fathers brought this place of commonalities, were based in America... ...pure class :rolleyes:

Though the majority of Brits and Europeans are fine in that regard, it's just a few who stand out in such a malodorous fashion.

I love the freedom of speech... for it even extends to the exterior of our great country. So that those who enjoy what we provide can still criticize us and our country with impunity.

Don't let the few prevent you from posting here... we need more real racer's opinions, rather than posers who just think they know...

#35 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 61,758 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 20 January 2003 - 19:22

Originally posted by Don Capps


A "world" which was perhaps smaller than the US.... :rolleyes:

Just joshing. Hence the :p .

#36 Wolf

Wolf
  • Member

  • 7,883 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 20 January 2003 - 19:26

Since everybody is putting Mario on spot #1, let me just point out Moss'- he was one of the greatest ever in GP cars, wasn't much behind in sports cars (actually, this can be said of another three of my favourite drivers; and this alone warrants better placings for two- Tazio and Maestro*), won in hillclimbs (most notably,class win and third overall in his first continetal hillclimb behind two 2l Ferraris driven by top drivers of the day), rallies (3 consecutive class wins on Alpine Rally, IIRC, warranting him Golden Apine Cup), endurance races (and as extreme, classic '55 Mille Miglia win, with unbeaten time), off roading (that Sahara race), land speed records, minor formulae... In almost each category his achievements speak for themselves, and I do not find much fault in his #1 rank. And, I don't see how anyone can doubt that after all he has shown on tarmac, ice, snow, wet, sand; that he wouldn't show same exceptional performances on dirt or ovals. I mean, the man has mastered +170 corners of toughest race circuit on the world, and there are reservations whether he would have mastered a track with 2 or 3 banked right turns?!? Ridiculous...

* as for Fangio, his Carrera Panamericana wins are as much rally/dirt wins as sportscar.

#37 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,502 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 20 January 2003 - 19:36

Originally posted by Doug Nye




What I can summon no defence for is this crass formulaic policy of 'Top 20s' and '100 Best' and '50 Most Famous'.... Gawd almighty - whatever happened to imagination and creative thinking?


DCN


I agree, but it presumably sells magazines - and has generated quite a bit of interest on this forum.

#38 Frank Grimes

Frank Grimes
  • Member

  • 321 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 20 January 2003 - 20:06

If you can mention Robbie Gordon - how about John Andretti? Wins in Cart, Nascar and did a year of NHRA top fuel. I think he did pretty well in sports cars, also.

#39 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 20 January 2003 - 20:21

For many and varied reasons, the lack of any interest by a sizable portion of American drivers and teams to make an effort to compete on an international level cannot be overlooked. For many years, racing in post-WW2 America was splintered and subject to endless fractions and schisms which ultimately sapped the overall effort of the necessary vitality to properly compete with the Europeans or entice the Europeans to engage in mutual efforts to foster a level of interchange which could only benefit both. Just another for the "If only..." pile.

Advertisement

#40 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,524 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 20 January 2003 - 22:29

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
You're European, get over it....


Prime example of smug American pig-ignorance - we islanders saved the tribes of middle Europe long enough for your forefathers to guarantee us all democracy sonny Jim - there are powerful arguments that 'we' have far more in common with you than we can ever have with Continental Europe. This isn't a mere question of approximate geography ... not even middle America's notion of it... errrrr - perhaps we should concentrate upon our shared sport and its history....

DCN

#41 Joe Fan

Joe Fan
  • Member

  • 5,591 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 21 January 2003 - 00:51

Originally posted by Doug Nye


So where are any decent quality American-published motor sporting publications to redress the balance....????

DCN


Good point but Racer magazine usually produces better lists than Motor Sport. However, they aren't exempt from narrow viewpoints because they typically have an open-wheel bias.

#42 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,524 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 21 January 2003 - 01:05

Our Jack Russell terrier produces better lists than 'Motor Sport'.....  ;)

#43 Mac Lark

Mac Lark
  • Member

  • 744 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 21 January 2003 - 01:18

I don't know why I didn't think of him earlier..

It was the 'top fuel' reference that did it:

Danny Ongais

Sports Cars, Indycars, Top Fuellers and F1 - and no doubt some other stuff too.

I look forward to Motor Sport each month but these lists are surely to inspire discussion and magazine sales.

They should never be taken as anything more.

A few years ago F1 Racing produced their top 100 F1 drivers since 1950. It seems anyone with a laminated media pass got to vote. Flav Briatore got a vote.

Flav, by his own admission, is a recent convert to motor racing. So he did he weigh up drivers of the 50's, 60's etc etc

The point is his vote counted.

Motor Sport's next big list could be 'best looking F1 cars since 1950' - it's all opinion and the sort of stuff to chew the rag on over a nice bottle of red wine.

It's just that MS takes the results of various opinions and compiles a list. I'd be far more interested in the individual lists of the some members of the panel...

#44 Mark Beckman

Mark Beckman
  • Member

  • 782 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 21 January 2003 - 01:18

Rick Mears is an obvious oversite and good call from Ray Bell for Jim Richards, a superb all rounder.

Of course Ari Vatenen isnt there, but then again Drivers who dont have a resume including asphalt never seem to make these lists anyway, winning the WRC, Pikes peak and Paris-Dakar etc. isn't a patch on what Tony Stewart has done. :rolleyes:

#45 rmhorton

rmhorton
  • Member

  • 343 posts
  • Joined: November 98

Posted 21 January 2003 - 01:19

Originally posted by Joe Fan


Good point but Racer magazine usually produces better lists than Motor Sport. However, they aren't exempt from narrow viewpoints because they typically have an open-wheel bias.



Well, if anyone fancies the challenge of reworking Racer into something half decent, they are currently advertising for an editor......

http://www.autosport...p?id=21709&s=53

RACER looking for managing editor

RACER Communications is looking for an experienced managing editor for a monthly auto racing magazine.

The successful and creative candidate will have a solid background in publishing, an ability to organise — and work within — a small editorial team, be able to manage budgets and funding, and have an understanding of the world of American motorsport.

The dynamic and driven candidate will possess proven writing and planning skills, all with the goal of producing a magazine of the highest quality. The role may also include representing the magazine at events and functions.

The position is based in Southern California.

Please e-mail CV and details to HRdept@racer.com

And Southern California is a pretty cool place to live.....perhaps something that we can all agree on in these troubled times. :)

Roger

#46 bournenville

bournenville
  • Member

  • 110 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 21 January 2003 - 01:20

IMHO number one is Mario Andretti.And theres someone I would like to add to the list.PeterRevson.
Opinions? :blush:
Ignacio :wave:

#47 Gerr

Gerr
  • Member

  • 696 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 21 January 2003 - 01:39

A few days ago I was watching SpeedTV's "Car & Track",circa 1971 and there's George Follmer winning a NASCAR modified race at Ontario Motor Speedway in a beater 1960 Ford Galaxie.
At the time I thought, what series didn't this guy race in.

Not having seen the MotorSport issue, what was the criteria used to pick an "all-rounder"?

#48 Joe Fan

Joe Fan
  • Member

  • 5,591 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 21 January 2003 - 01:59

I know Don isn't crazy about top whatever type lists but I do enjoy them for the simple reason that I can spot omissions and sometimes they cause me to do more digging to perhaps see why someone is ranked so high. The problem with any top-whatever motorsports list is the fact that you cannot easily find enough panel members who are knowledgable about all motorsports and then everyone has a certain degree of bias to the merits of one particular motorsport.

In Europe and the UK (;) ) the bias is with Formula One. In the US, with the popularity of sprint car, stock car and open wheel racing, it is less defined but sports car racing seems to get the short end of the stick all over.

#49 Wolf

Wolf
  • Member

  • 7,883 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 21 January 2003 - 04:10

Heh, I just remembered another list posted by Don; which I will shamelessly use to my 'evil ends'... Remembrer '100 Best Races'? Well, in there Moss was IIRC tied with Jimmy for sheer number of entries at the top with 6, and had slightly better placings... Both were present in two categories (Moss 4 GPs and 2 Sportscar races vs. 5:1 in Jimmy's case), as were severall other drivers, including Fangio and Tazio (both having three entries, 2:1 in favour of GPs). Three of those drivers had their drives in Mille Miglia (ultimate endurance races, I'd say) listed*. If that's not proof of greatness (hadn't seen their entries challenged in discussion either ;)) and versatility, I don't know what is.

* Moss had '55 MM, '59 Nürburgring 1000km, Jimmy '62 Nürburgring 1000km listed, Fangio '53 MM and Tazio '47 MM as their non-GP races listed...

#50 Hieronymus

Hieronymus
  • Member

  • 2,032 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 21 January 2003 - 06:17

What's the criteria used to define a motor racing "all-rounder"? Someone that can win on/in anything that has got wheels, I presume?

If so, I wish to mention Patrick Depailler.

Winner in:

F1
F2
F3
Sports Cars
Rallying
Motorcycle Racing

....he even once won a bicycle race.

I guess, if it had wheels, Patrick would drive it...and win.


PS. By the way, Bladrian, I LOVE that flag. Nice touch!!