88 replies to this topic

[Bernd]

Oh yes the tracks are universally pathetic! Suzuka is the only proper one left and it's saddled with that ridiculously slow chicane. Yes the carbon brakes are far to good as well.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think Sir Frank's analogy to air combat was best. In the 40s you needed 10miles of airspace to sort it out, nowadays you need hundreds of miles

[deangelis86]

What a shame that this thread has predictably degenerated YET again into a I hate/do not hate Nigel Roebuck debate....

If you don't agree or like what he writes, then don't read it! Simple. You are entitled to make that choice as much as he is to write and speak his own mind.

Going back to the original topic, has anyone got any further constructive comment to make regarding Roebuck's assessment of Stefan Bellof??

[MichaelJP]

I'm another to speak in defence of Nigel Roebuck.

OK, he does cut 'n' paste a lot, but only for the "Ask Nigel" questions, and even then, there are usually a few gems that will appear each week.

I'm also in complete disagreement with Ross's remark about wanting information not editorials. I get all the information from websites about the race and the events within it on the day of the race itself.

The strength of a magazine to me is in it's comment and editorial content, as the facts and figures are well out of date by the time its printed. (With the exception of club stuff which isn't usually on websites anyway)

Roebuck does bang on about the old days, but quite rightly so in respect of trying to get F1 steered in the right direction once more. And if you read his stuff, he is just as much against the excessive aero contribution today as he is against the driver aids.

- MichaelJP

[deangelis86]

I repeat again...has anyone got any further constructive comment to make regarding Roebuck's assessment of Stefan Bellof?? :

[David M. Kane]

In a car without driver aids he was one of the most brave and most talented
of all times. God gave him massive quantities of car feel and cat like
reflexes.

In a modern car he would have been totally boring...

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by MichaelJP


I'm also in complete disagreement with Ross's remark about wanting information not editorials. I get all the information from websites about the race and the events within it on the day of the race itself.

The strength of a magazine to me is in it's comment and editorial content...

Why not save your money and spend more time at TNF? You get more varied opinions, no one has to pay for them, no one is pretending one posters opinions are better than any others, and our resident journalists (both magazine and BB based) are better than Autosports.

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Why not save your money and spend more time at TNF? You get more varied opinions, no one has to pay for them, no one is pretending one posters opinions are better than any others, and our resident journalists (both magazine and BB based) are better than Autosports.

Ross, I'm rapidly coming round to that point of view:)

(I am a subscriber BTW)

- MichaelJP

[Don Capps]

For awhile I was going to either boot this thread off the forum or sent to Another Forum where its tone would be more appropriate.

The comments made by Roebuck on Stefan Bellof run pretty much parallel to my own thoughts on this driver.

As for Roebuck, he is perhaps the only link to the once credible past reputation which Autosport has left. He has a real enthusiasm for the sporting side of the activity known as F1, minimal as it may be these days. He is a columnist and is supposed to provide his view on events as he sees them. He is not paid to be objective, but subjective.

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by Don Capps
He is not paid to be objective, but subjective.

And that he is not just subjective, but elegantly, and eloquently, so - is our good fortune. Bravo, Mr Roebuck.

[TODave2]

Okay... Bellof

In the same way that it's hard for me to think of Senna greatness without also remembering the Suzuka incident, I can't help but remember Bellof for some great car control... but also the overtaking move that cost him his life. It just seemed (am I allowed to say this about the dead?) a stupid thing to do. The opening lap of a long race, overtaking up the inside into Eau Rouge which wasn't in any way recognised as an overtaking place... it just seem a foolish thing to do.

But.... BUT... if he pulled it off it would have been an amazing move, fitting to the man. I just think it was ill advised.


To be brutally honest though, I have to confess that I can't remember a great deal else about the bloke. Here's a 'brain dump' of my Bellof info:

German
Unruly hair
Big smile
Black crash helmet
Tyrrell
Third in '84 Monaco downpour, was catching Senna who everyone was raving about.

After that... I just seem to recall him trundling around in a Tyrrell at the back of the grid... sorry

[David M. Kane]

It was a stupid move, unfortunately we will never know what he was thinking
if anything! Burned in my mind forever is the body language of Jackie Ickx
as he walked away from the wreck.

Wasn't at Spa that Siffert and Pedro had their door banging? Didn't Jo
say something to the effect, "the little bastard tried to kill me!".

[oldtimer]

And didn't the Rodrigues/Siffert door banging take place at Eau Rouge?

[masterhit]

Yeah, well, mistake or not, we all make them and it is tragic that such an accident in closed wheel cars had such consequences and that such a talent was taken from us.

[Uwe]

Originally posted by TODave2
In the same way that it's hard for me to think of Senna greatness without also remembering the Suzuka incident, I can't help but remember Bellof for some great car control... but also the overtaking move that cost him his life. It just seemed (am I allowed to say this about the dead?) a stupid thing to do. The opening lap of a long race, overtaking up the inside into Eau Rouge which wasn't in any way recognised as an overtaking place... it just seem a foolish thing to do.

But.... BUT... if he pulled it off it would have been an amazing move, fitting to the man. I just think it was ill advised.

According to this website it wasn't neither the opening lap nor was Bellof the only one to blame for the accident:
http://www.izdebski....e/das_ende.html

Roughly translated it says Bellof and Ickx took over the car from their respective teammates with Ickx leading Bellof by 5 seconds. Bellof was a lot faster and was directly behind Ickx within shortest time. Ickx blocked Bellof for about three laps. Coming out of La Source Ickx went to the right, an invitation for Bellof to overtake. Bellof was already beside Ickx, when Ickx turned left, causing a collision and pushing Bellof on the grass. Despite blue flags wildly waved by the marshals (as could be seen by Ickx' inboard camera) Ickx obviously didn't make use of his mirrors.[end of quote]

I cannot comment on Bellof's fatal accident, as I didn't see the race. This is just provided as additional information/opinion.

[Doug Nye]

I have only just read through this thread... and a right load of old tosh some of it is too... but the interesting thing to me is the apparently perceived impression of Nigel R. himself. Inoffensive, extremely pleasant, chain smoking motor racing obsessive that he is I think he'll quite enjoy it. I must (will) get him to take a look at all this...

DCN

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Uwe

According to this website it wasn't neither the opening lap nor was Bellof the only one to blame for the accident:
http://www.izdebski....e/das_ende.html

Roughly translated it says Bellof and Ickx took over the car from their respective teammates with Ickx leading Bellof by 5 seconds. Bellof was a lot faster and was directly behind Ickx within shortest time. Ickx blocked Bellof for about three laps. Coming out of La Source Ickx went to the right, an invitation for Bellof to overtake. Bellof was already beside Ickx, when Ickx turned left, causing a collision and pushing Bellof on the grass. Despite blue flags wildly waved by the marshals (as could be seen by Ickx' inboard camera) Ickx obviously didn't make use of his mirrors.[end of quote]

I cannot comment on Bellof's fatal accident, as I didn't see the race. This is just provided as additional information/opinion.

There was an earlier thread about this. IMHO as they were racing each other the blue flags were either completely inappropriate (and therefore dangerously confusing) or perhaps shown to another, slower car.

[scheivlak]

Found the earlier thread: http://www.atlasf1.c...ighlight=Bellof

Originally posted by alain_sl
I am not specially a great fan of Ickx (except for 1984-86 Paris-Dakar races), but to be fair, I think there is an important point that has been omitted. At the exit of la Source, there was a backmaker in front of Ickx (I can not recall who it was, a Tiga or Spice or someone else) . Ickx pass him on the right side of the track, then went back to the left just like he should have been there if there was not that backmaker. As he was approaching Eau Rouge (and then only), he went on the right again. But I think, it was not to give Bellof enough room to pass him. Ickx was just following the racing line. It happened that Bellof took the inside of the corner. I have never been inside a 956 ( ) and I can not realize what is the visibility from inside the cockpit. I just believe Ickx did not think Bellof was possibly there, on his left. And sadly, the accident happened.
Just would like to point out that if Ickx 'rushed to the right' after exiting la Source, it was to pass a backmaker and not to invit Bellof to overtake him.
Alain

[David M. Kane]

Doug there is an old Hollywood saying, "there is no such thing as bad publicity, just be sure to spell my name right!"

Name me one other writer in a proper motoring pub who EVEN comes close to
NR? Obviously, I am talking about an English speaking one since I can't
read French, Italian, Spanish or German due to my limited education. I'm
would love to be able to read the Italian pubs, I'm sure there is some
REAL passion for the sport there!

[dolomite]

Stefan Bellof at Thruxton F2, Easter Monday 1983 :




To echo a previous poster, At the moment I can't recall any other particularly notable performances by Bellof in F1 apart from Monaco 84, which is the one that everybody always goes on about. More stories anybody?

[LB]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I have only just read through this thread... and a right load of old tosh some of it is too... but the interesting thing to me is the apparently perceived impression of Nigel R. himself. Inoffensive, extremely pleasant, chain smoking motor racing obsessive that he is I think he'll quite enjoy it. I must (will) get him to take a look at all this...

DCN

Say hi from me - I still enjoy his work every week in Autosport as I have since the early 80's. Only thing that has bugged me is the creeping of politics into his column. Thats probably because I am not of the same political persuasion as him however.

On Bellof I'm kinda with TODave2 , I was only 12 when he died so I don't even remember the unruly hair but I do remember Monaco 1984 and him catching Senna that was catching Prost and thats about it sadly.

[masterhit]

I hate what I'm saying, but I genuinely believe that the Tyrrells were probably running underweight in that race. If anything, though, that makes Bellof's performance at Monaco more remarkable - a even lighter car is the last thing you need in weather like that....

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by dolomite
Stefan Bellof at Thruxton F2, Easter Monday 1983 :




To echo a previous poster, At the moment I can't recall any other particularly notable performances by Bellof in F1 apart from Monaco 84, which is the one that everybody always goes on about. More stories anybody?

Off the top of my head, Portugal and Detroit 1985 were'nt bad. You have to rememember Tyrrell were banned for half of 84, Stefan himself missed races because of Porsche WEC duty and he also got rested in Brazil 85 because of comments Willi Maurer made. He really only ever had just over a season of F1. Thats a tragedy in itself.

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I have only just read through this thread... and a right load of old tosh some of it is too... but the interesting thing to me is the apparently perceived impression of Nigel R. himself. Inoffensive, extremely pleasant, chain smoking motor racing obsessive that he is I think he'll quite enjoy it. I must (will) get him to take a look at all this...
DCN

Doug, get him on this forum, they'll be polite to him then!!

- MichaelJP

[Darren Galpin]

I've read some of Roebuck's opinions of the Internet, but I'm sure that the TNF would help change some of them. I'm also sure that he would be glad to see such a large audience thinking largely as he does about modern racing, and enjoying thoughtful discussions about the past. And we even know who Jochen Rindt is......

Hey, my thousandth post, and I even have something positive to say! What has come over me.....

[Vrba]

Despite all the criticism from my side, I still read Roebuck's column.....each week I expect something and get almost nothing but I still have faith in him, one day he will accidentaly erase his hard disk, lose all the backups and would have to write all the stuff again :-)
Beside cut-and-paste practice that I disagree with, Mr Roebuck's and my opinions about modern racing differ. I don't mind technology or driver aids at all. Only thing that should be changed are the tracks. Putting today's cars and drivers on better (yesterday's) tracks would prove that it's not bidirectional telemetry or aerodynamic grip or carbon brakes what ruin today's racing.
Cars became faster and tracks became shorter, that's a contradiction and that's the main problem.

Hrvoje

[dolomite]

Originally posted by ghinzani


Off the top of my head, Portugal and Detroit 1985 were'nt bad. You have to rememember Tyrrell were banned for half of 84, Stefan himself missed races because of Porsche WEC duty and he also got rested in Brazil 85 because of comments Willi Maurer made. He really only ever had just over a season of F1. Thats a tragedy in itself.

Tyrrell didn't miss any races in 84, they competed in all of them but were were removed from the results retrospectively after the season had finished. Bellof drove in 12 of the 16 races.

[LB]

Originally posted by dolomite


Tyrrell didn't miss any races in 84, they competed in all of them but were were removed from the results retrospectively after the season had finished. Bellof drove in 12 of the 16 races.

They were banned after Detroit but the appeal went on until after the Dutch GP after that they missed the rest of the season, Bellof did 10 races failed to qualify for 3 more Johansson 3 ( failed once) and Brundle 7 missed Monaco and Dallas through accidents. Tyrell only weren't there for Italy Europe (Nurburgring ) and Portugal.

[dolomite]

Originally posted by LB


They were banned after Detroit but the appeal went on until after the Dutch GP after that they missed the rest of the season, Bellof did 10 races failed to qualify for 3 more Johansson 3 ( failed once) and Brundle 7 missed Monaco and Dallas through accidents. Tyrell only weren't there for Italy Europe (Nurburgring ) and Portugal.

OK you're right, I looked it up quickly and missed the bit about the 3 race ban

[TODave2]

Well, just goes to show how the old brainbox can befuddle the facts after all these years. I could have sworn it was the opening lap. I seem to recall an image of all the cars pouring down into Eau Rouge and at the front there's Bellof trying the move.

Still, I stand corrected.

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by dolomite


OK you're right, I looked it up quickly and missed the bit about the 3 race ban

So I was 2/3rds right....;) Stefans still one of my heros - Im currently having a set to with the missus about putting my valvoline poster up in the spare room with him in the Maurer (my faveourite car he drove)... the arguement goes a little something like this "but babe its not any old poster its STEFAN BELLOF.. STEFAN BELLOF... dont you understand!!!!" - and obviously she doesnt

[deangelis86]

Originally posted by ghinzani

"but babe its not any old poster its STEFAN BELLOF.. STEFAN BELLOF... dont you understand!!!!" - and obviously she doesnt

Ahhh, that old chestnut again eh? I know it so very well

The Missus has given up trying to win the poster war,and has now resigned herself to the fact that the Study will forever be a shrine to Elio

[Jeroen Brink]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Ive never understood Roebuck's current relevance to Autosport. He seems to detest everything that has to do with F1. Shouldnt he be writing history books or contributing to Vintage Motorsport?

This is the question I once asked him - in different wording obviously - but it was not featured.

Indeed there are repeating answers - I have all q&a's collected since the start compounding over 500 pages already - but the messages have some substance at least. The current unexciting times in the sport lead to repeating comments by default.

[Lutz G]

Originally posted by Uwe

According to this website it wasn't neither the opening lap nor was Bellof the only one to blame for the accident:
http://www.izdebski....e/das_ende.html

Roughly translated it says Bellof and Ickx took over the car from their respective teammates with Ickx leading Bellof by 5 seconds. Bellof was a lot faster and was directly behind Ickx within shortest time. Ickx blocked Bellof for about three laps. Coming out of La Source Ickx went to the right, an invitation for Bellof to overtake. Bellof was already beside Ickx, when Ickx turned left, causing a collision and pushing Bellof on the grass. Despite blue flags wildly waved by the marshals (as could be seen by Ickx' inboard camera) Ickx obviously didn't make use of his mirrors.[end of quote]

I know the webmaster of this site Rudi Izdebski personally.
He told me that he saw the incident with his own eyes from the pit area



Rudi confirms that (as shown above in "Auto Zeitung" - the blue car is Bellof's Porsche) Ickx suddenly pulled to the right as if he wanted to invite Bellof to overtake *before* Eau Rouge (he never did that the laps before)

I cannot comment on Bellof's fatal accident cause I didn't see it, but Rudi told me about footage by John Nichols. Porsche bought the rights for this footage and locked it somewhere in their archive. But they allowed a reporter from the german mag "AZ" to have a look at it. He agreed with Rudi's point of view after watching it.

Does anybody else (perhaps from TNF?) had a look at this footage? Does Porsche got the only copy or is there somewhere (perhaps John Nichols still owns a copy?) another one?

BTW: Did Roebuck wrote about his thoughts about Bellofs fatal accident somewhere (Autosport? Any comments from other magazines/authors?)

Lutz

[Lutz G]

Originally posted by TODave2

To be brutally honest though, I have to confess that I can't remember a great deal else about the bloke. Here's a 'brain dump' of my Bellof info:

German
Unruly hair
Big smile
Black crash helmet
Tyrrell
Third in '84 Monaco downpour, was catching Senna who everyone was raving about.

Here's something to add to your list:

He was unbelievable quick on the Nürburgring Nordschleife.

He did a 6.11,13 min! (over 200 km/h average) in 1983 (!) in his Porsche 956.
30 seconds faster than F1 Champion Keke Rosberg and 5 seconds faster than Jochen Mass.

Lutz

[swintex]

I seem to remember a story about a broken throttle cable on a Maurer on the first lap at Nurburgring too.

My recollection (probably completely wrong) is that Bellof arrived in the pits at the end of lap one, complete with broken throttle cable, before the rest of the field came by.

If any body can confirm or deny, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

On a happier note, here's a picture of Stefan on the way to winning the 1,000km at Silverstone in 1983.

[sonar]

Ahhh, that old chestnut again eh? I know it so very well

The Missus has given up trying to win the poster war,and has now resigned herself to the fact that the Study will forever be a shrine to Elio

That's the weirdest thing I've ever heard.
What woman wouldn't want a whole room filled with pictures of Elio in her house........?

About the Bellof-Ickx crash: we can probably go on and on about it, like the Peterson incident.
I still think that Ickx, even though he never expected Stefan to overtake him at Eau Rouge, he should have looked in his mirror before going to the left.
It's the first thing everybody, who's learning to drive a car, is taught.

[canon1753]

I wonder if Jacky figured "no one passes in Eau Rouge, I'll take my good line..." Stefan, brave as he was, like Gilles, put the car where no one else would...

[scheivlak]

That's the weirdest thing I've ever heard.
What woman wouldn't want a whole room filled with pictures of Elio in her house........?

About the Bellof-Ickx crash: we can probably go on and on about it, like the Peterson incident.
I still think that Ickx, even though he never expected Stefan to overtake him at Eau Rouge, he should have looked in his mirror before going to the left.
It's the first thing everybody, who's learning to drive a car, is taught.

About the first thing a racing driver is taught is that the guy coming from behind has more responsibility when a collision is at hand.