28 replies to this topic

[WDH74]

Probably been asked before, but I couldn't find it. How were race numbers allocated during the early parts of the Grand Prix Championship? I seem to recall reading that cars (or more correctly their drivers) started carrying the same number all season long sometime in the seventies, but it's obvious just by looking at old pictures in books that this was not always the case. Plus, they don't seem to be allocated sequentially-unless my counting is just dire (perfectly possible though it is!), looking at massed fields doesn't always show cars 1-24 or whatever. Could drivers choose?
-William

[Vitesse2]

No real hard and fast rule. Even the convention of allocating number one to the World Champion wasn't universal until the FIA took a hand - I think Fittipaldi was the first to wear number one throughout his champion year in 1975. Continental European race organisers tended to use even numbers only, the British used anything except (usually) 13.

In some meetings, like the 1953 German GP, the numbers are almost impossibly high, but I think in that case they just numbered all the cars in all the races separately - high numbers abound at Charterhall, Crystal Palace and others.

And of course, sometimes they used different numbers in practice to confound pirate programme producers.

There are probably hundreds of answers to this question .....

[Vitesse2]

And then of course there was the Italian numbering system of 1948 ....

And the Mille Miglia, where from 1949 the car number was the start time .....

Oh, you said WDC ..... never mind!

[d.c.a. mulcahy]

The current system of a driver using the same number in every race of the season, assuming he stayed with the same team, has been in effect since the 1973 Belgian GP.

regards

d.c.a. (declan) mulcahy

[jgm]

Before F1 became Bernie's circus each team would have to apply individually to each race organiser for an entry. I assume that in those days numbers were just allocated on a first come first served basis.

[Doug Nye]

An interesting number preference was Moss's consistent liking for his lucky number '7' - Rob Walker always requesting it from race organisers and most times being granted SM's wish.

Essentially numbers-schnumbers, nobody bothered about what number individual race number organisers chose to allocate to them. It didn't make the car any quicker...

DCN

[Alan Baker]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
An interesting number preference was Moss's consistent liking for his lucky number '7' - Rob Walker always requesting it from race organisers and most times being granted SM's wish.



DCN

After winning his first GP at the Nurburgring in '63 carrying number 7, John Surtees developed a partiality for the number, running it several times in '64, and consistently from mid '66 onward. If the race was of the 2-4-6-8 numering type, he favoured 14, which, astonishingly, he carried in all but one race in his terrible BRM year of 1969, maybe he thought he needed double the luck that year!

[Barry Boor]

Interestingly.... well to a very few of us on this forum, is the fact that following their 'problems' in 2007, McLaren have been allocated numers 22 & 23 for the 2008 season.

I wonder how many F.1 championship races have been won by either of those numbers.

[cheesy poofs]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Interestingly.... well to a very few of us on this forum, is the fact that following their 'problems' in 2007, McLaren have been allocated numers 22 & 23 for the 2008 season.

I wonder how many F.1 championship races have been won by either of those numbers.

Good question Barry.

I wonder what numbers have won the most GP's. Also, can we break down the all numbers used for GP wins?!?

[D-Type]

Originally posted by cheesy poofs


Good question Barry.

I wonder what numbers have won the most GP's. Also, can we break down the all numbers used for GP wins?!?

I've seen this on a website but can't remember which

[lofong]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Interestingly.... well to a very few of us on this forum, is the fact that following their 'problems' in 2007, McLaren have been allocated numers 22 & 23 for the 2008 season.

I wonder how many F.1 championship races have been won by either of those numbers.

I believe neither has won since the '60s.

In 1964, these numbers won consecutive races: Clark at Spa with #23 -- I believe it was that number's one and only win -- followed by Dan Gurney with #22 in France, a feat that might just be repeated this year.

#22 had its most recent victory with Jo Siffert, carried on Rob Walker's Lotus at Brands.

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by D-Type
I've seen this on a website but can't remember which

Could it be this one?

Their figures show three wins for 22 and (as lofong stated) one win for 23, with (fairly predictably) top of the pile being number 1 with 146 wins.

[Rob]

Originally posted by lofong

I believe neither has won since the '60s.

I think the closest since then is Rubens Barrichello's second place with number 22 at Monaco in 1997. I thought he was going to win the thing when Schumacher trundled up the escape road!

[Barry Boor]

Then again, the 2008 McLaren might be a dog and neither of those numbers may win another one. I guess Kovalainen will get #23.

Now I wonder if Spa 1964 until whatever race this year, will be the longest gap between race wins for any given number that has more than 1 win, of course.

"Shut up, Boor, for goodness sake!"

[fines]

"Shut up, Boor, for goodness sake!"

[lofong]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Now I wonder if Spa 1964 until whatever race this year, will be the longest gap between race wins for any given number that has more than 1 win, of course.

Barry, you asked the question and, sad to say, race numbers still fascinate me ..... probably a throwback to my days as a youngster when I somehow used to be able to maintain full lap charts of races, while simultaneously taking photographs, using a stopwatch and yet missing none of the action. Nowadays I have trouble cstaying focussed and not drifting off or getting distracted while typing up one of these posts.

Anyway I believe that both #22 or #23 would create records by a considerable amount if they should get a win this year. I have it that the current longest gap between wins was the 22+ years for #17, recorded when Johnny Herbert won that European GP for Stewart back in '99. I don't believe any other number in use this year would create a longer gap between victories if it should win.

During most of that same period though, it is at first sight surprising that there was an 18 year period between the Monaco GPs of 1978 and 1996 when the low race numbers of 4, 9 and 10 also scored no victories. However it was the revised numbering system at that point which obviously weighted the likelihood of wins back in favour of the lowest numbers. While the prior numbering system from the '70s on of teams mostly retaining the same numbers from year-to-year accounts for the drought, e.g. through this period the #4 was I believe always the second Tyrrell car at a time when their first car found it challenging enough to win.

Aside from the unusual McLaren situation this year, with the current state of F-1, it's only those occasional oddball races, usually due to weather conditions, that are now now likely to propel the double-digit numbers back to the top step of the podium. A good recent example was Jenson Button taking #12 to victory in '06 for the first time since Ayrton during his first season at McLaren.

[Barry Boor]

Knowing that the Monaco organisers used to allocate numbers based on the alphabetical order of car entrants (not drivers) I am puzzled by Alfredo Pian in 1950. He had #4, next to Gonzales who wore #2. I had always assumed that this meant both drivers were entered by the Argentine Club.

Both drivers were Argentine, after all, but upon looking up some information on Seňor Pián, I find his car was entered by Equipe Achille Varzi, which presumably was an Itlaian outfit.

I thought that checking MotorSport would be a plan but alas, I seem to be unable to find ANY reference to the 1950 Monaco Grand Prix in that magazine at all. It must be there, surely, but I'm blowed if I can find it.

Can anyone add lightness to this query?

[Tim Murray]

According to the Sheldon Black Book, Gonzalez and Pian were both entered by Scuderia Achille Varzi.

["Shangry-La"]

Knowing that the Monaco organisers used to allocate numbers based on the alphabetical order of car entrants (not drivers) I am puzzled by Alfredo Pian in 1950. He had #4, next to Gonzales who wore #2. I had always assumed that this meant both drivers were entered by the Argentine Club.

Both drivers were Argentine, after all, but upon looking up some information on Seňor Pián, I find his car was entered by Equipe Achille Varzi, which presumably was an Itlaian outfit.

Barry,
Equipo Argentino Achille Varzi was simply another name for the Automovil Club Argentino team. The team were based in Galliate, Varzi's home town.
Gonzalez and Pian were in the same team.

[Roger Clark]

I thought that Squadra Achille Varzi was the name given by the Argentine AC to the team it sent to Europe in memory of the Italian driver. Their HQ was at Galliate, in Archille's old house and workshops.

Like most British magazines, Motor sport did not cover every continental race in the early post-war years. They simply didn't have the money and currency restriction made it more difficult. Motor Sport's coverage only became reasonably comprehensive when they found someone willing to spend all summer on the continent. What was his name? even then, he was always liable to miss a race if he decided he wanted to do something else.

[Tim Murray]

... as discussed in this earlier thread:

Scuderia Achille Varzi - team of Italy or Argentina?

[wenoopy]

Knowing that the Monaco organisers used to allocate numbers based on the alphabetical order of car entrants (not drivers) I am puzzled by Alfredo Pian in 1950. He had #4, next to Gonzales who wore #2. I had always assumed that this meant both drivers were entered by the Argentine Club.

Both drivers were Argentine, after all, but upon looking up some information on Seňor Pián, I find his car was entered by Equipe Achille Varzi, which presumably was an Itlaian outfit.

I thought that checking MotorSport would be a plan but alas, I seem to be unable to find ANY reference to the 1950 Monaco Grand Prix in that magazine at all. It must be there, surely, but I'm blowed if I can find it.

Can anyone add lightness to this query?

My recollection from early Fangio books("The life story of Juan Manuel Fangio" - Ronald Hansen & Federico B. Kirbus - Edita S.A.) was that Ecurie(?Scuderia) Achille Varzi was the Argentine(A.C.A.) team.
In 1949 Varzi's father offered the Argentine Auto club the use of the late Achille's workshop and house at Galleate - there was reference later to "the old Scuderia Achille Varzi H.Q. at Galleate"

I think that there has been discussion in other threads about the various drivers sent over to Europe by the A.C.A. in 1948-50.

[JtP1]

Interestingly.... well to a very few of us on this forum, is the fact that following their 'problems' in 2007, McLaren have been allocated numers 22 & 23 for the 2008 season.

I wonder how many F.1 championship races have been won by either of those numbers.

Well 26 and 27 were at one time the numbers to have for a F1 team.

[Barry Boor]

I am assuming, therefore, that both the Argentine cars were blue and yellow.

[David McKinney]

A logical assumption

[D-Type]

I am assuming, therefore, that both the Argentine cars were blue and yellow.

A photo in David Hodges's Monaco GP history confirms Gonzalez's car was blue and yellow.

This Russian site shows a picture of Pian's Maserati #4 which also appears blue and yellow.

Edited by D-Type, 06 April 2011 - 23:06.

[Barry Boor]

On the subject of Pian, allegedly, he had the 6th best time when he crashed but I suppose that was so early that the time is somewhat meaningless. Can't find an actual time.

If you look at the practice times compared with grid positions for that race, they are all over the place due to an odd system of deciding times.

There is a picture of Pian's Maserati on the Juan Fangio website. Clearly blue and yellow (grey and light grey).

Edited by Barry Boor, 06 April 2011 - 23:03.

[D-Type]

Whoops! your post coincided with my edit. I like the "grey and light grey" description

[uechtel]

In some meetings, like the 1953 German GP, the numbers are almost impossibly high, but I think in that case they just numbered all the cars in all the races separately

Probably with this I get the record for the longest time for a response on TNF - where usually this is measured by milliseconds here - but I can the explanation of the German numbering system.

First remark, I think you refer to 1952 instead of 1953, as in the latter year the numbers started well down with #1 for Alberto Ascari and were reaching up to #41 for Bechem (probably as a late nomination). I would not regard this 'impossilbly high' with indeed more than 30 entries. But in 1952 the range was from #101 (Ascari again) to #136 for Krause from East Germany.

To understand the idea one must know, that the 'national' series of races in Germany was always held for various classes and categories. So on a typical weekend you would have not only a run for the top level race car category (which would have been Formula 2), but also Formula 3, so-called 'Kleinstrennwagen', and also sports cars up to 1.1, 1.5 and 2.0 litres.

Already as early as 1948/49 the idea of season-long permanent numbers was intorduced, at least for the drivers who would take part regularily in the 'series'. As Germans have liked it always well-sorted certain number ranges were reserved for the various classes. Sports cars were usually given #1 to #20 (for the 2 litres), #21 to #40 (1.5 litres) and #41 to #80 (1.1 litres). Above this followed the F3/'midget' category (#81 to #100) and finally the F2 class starting at #100.

Around 1950 I think in particular for the F3 class the ranges had to be extended a little bit because of the huge number of entrants, so the F2 moved up to numbers above #120.

In events with international participation it was common to let the German drivers maintain their numbers by simply filling up the gap between #100 and #120 for the foreign entrants, usually grouped together by nationality (meant that Swiss entrants had continouous numbers, then the Italians, the British and the French). If there were more than 20 foreigners or also some late entrants from Germany they were given numbers above the highes existing (or sometimes also filling up gaps).

The only major exception was the GP of 1950 when the 'Italian' even-numbers-system was used, with #2 to #14 for Italians, #16 to #28 for the Swiss, #30 to #36 for French and #38 to #44 for British drivers. #46 went to spain, #48 and #50 to Argentina, #52 Sweden, #54 USA, and then the range from #56 to #74 to West Germany. #76 Netherlands, #78 / #80 GDR/East Germany, #82 Belgium and then finally a group of Gordini drivers from #84 to #94 completed the field. I assume they had placed late enries when the other numbers had already been handed out.