33 replies to this topic

[doc540]

About 15 years ago, SuperTex strapped into an '85 March tub covered with a then state-of-the-untested-art body and powered by a 4 cylinder Quad Four engine (one single turbo, one twin turbo) and set two international speed records which still stand today.

The design and engineering was a multi-million dollar effort by Oldsmobile, but the edge-of-the-envelope driving job was one of the greatest in the history of motorsports for many reasons.

For one thing, rumors abound that due to internal GM politics after the initial shakedown test at GM's Mesa, Arizona proving grounds (216mph first lap out of the transporter with the Indy pole speed being in that range), Chevy pulled rank on Olds and wouldn't allow the record runs to occur at the Mesa track. However, the truth probably lies in the quality of the racing surface and the Fort Stockton track sufficed.

Instead, Olds had to settle for old and extremely treacherous, 7.7 mile, Firestone test track near God forsaken, Fort Stockton, Texas with it's unpredictable prarie land winds, and inadequate safety barriers. Foyt said, "Hell, I told'em if I run off'a that thing, the coyotes would get me before they could even find me!"

The drives:

Closed Course Average
Over the radio, the engineers kept telling Foyt to crank the boost to higher and higher levels until they reached 40lbs. Foyt says he gradually twisted the knob, whincing and waiting for an engine failure (however, even under extreme boost both the single turbo, Batten Engineering Quad4 and the Fueling, twin turbo engines were extremely reliable) and the problems it would cause.
Can you imagine blowing an engine while stuck on the banking at 270mph?

To capture the flying mile world record, the car had to run in both directions. That in itself posed quite a challenge, but became more of a challenge when everyone realized both runs had to be conducted within one hour! A fuel pickup problem caused a few anxious moments, but they were quickly resolved.

Finally, the little gremlins were fixed and Foyt began the record runs in earnest. His speeds on the straights were clocked at nearly 290mph, not too impressive considering many 300mph club members at Bonneville. However, having to turn and entering the banking proved to be quite the challenge. In fact, Foyt was entering the banking and actually letting the Aerotech slide like a sprinter until it stuck on a line.

While exiting the last turn, the Quad Four sucked at least one of its 16 valves which had a dramatically adverse effect on its power. Nonetheless, Foyt had secured the international, closed course, world speed record averaging 257mph. Since the speed trap was miles down the track from the exit of turn four, no telling how high the record would have been with a healthy engine.

Flying Mile
True to form, Foyt wound up the Quad4 engine again, cranked the boost to 40 lbs and, again, without the engine performing at its optimum output set the international, flying mile, world record with a two-way average of 267mph.

Both records stand today.

(btw: While the car was being assembled and prepared at Foyt's Houston shop his crew had serious doubts about the Olds engineers' assurances that that car was safe. It was quietly referred to as "the death car" out of earshot of the Lansing bunch. However, they'd done their homework well, and the project was not only safe, but an amazing success)

Realizing that this post may attract the usual Foyt detractors, I still wanted to post something about the history of what I believe to be one of the bravest and most memorable drives in motorsports history.

Hope you enjoyed it and will forgive any typo's or technical errors.

[MattPete]

Hell, Nuvolari drove faster on the Autobahn 50 years earlier. To me, that's more impressive.

[doc540]

Wow! Please share that story.

I knew an incredibly fast world, close course record was set during that era (on a huge oval?) but I can't remember the details.

And Rosemeyer managed to reach 252mph in an Auto Union during a 5km run in 1937!

Here's an excerpt I found about Rosemeyer's final day in 1938:

"The final showdown between Caracciola and Rosemeyer came on January 28, 1938. That morning, Caracciola and the Mercedes racing team set out to break one of Rosemeyer's speed records -- the record for one kilometer on a road, with a "flying start" -- driving on a stretch of highway near Frankfurt. Caracciola succeeded, setting a new world record: 268.3 miles per hour."

[Cociani]

doc540, do you have any pictures of the Foyt car?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by doc540
Wow! Please share that story.

I knew an incredibly fast world, close course record was set during that era (on a huge oval?) but I can't remember the details.

And Rosemeyer managed to reach 252mph in an Auto Union during a 5km run in 1937!

Here's an excerpt I found about Rosemeyer's final day in 1938:

"The final showdown between Caracciola and Rosemeyer came on January 28, 1938. That morning, Caracciola and the Mercedes racing team set out to break one of Rosemeyer's speed records -- the record for one kilometer on a road, with a "flying start" -- driving on a stretch of highway near Frankfurt. Caracciola succeeded, setting a new world record: 268.3 miles per hour."

While we're on mad records on huge circuits, Karl, care to add anything about some of the achievements of the Merc C-111? - superb material on that in Quicksilver Century!


pete

[Ray Bell]

Great stuff... never knew a thing about this effort.

The gall of Chevrolet!

[doc540]

Cociani, I'll try to post a few, but they are relatively rare on the internet.

Here's a cover picture of the "short tail" car from an Oldsmoblile promotion magazine.

The car also ran another body with a "long tail" like many LeMans cars. I think Porsche ran one with an exceptionally long tail, didn't they?

Hope this works!



btw: the canopy was an extremely expensive "one off" which, like an F-16 canopy, created a minimum amount of distortion through its curves. One other chilling note is the driver had no internal release mechanism to exit. The canopy had to be released manually from the outside.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by doc540


btw: the canopy was an extremely expensive "one off" which, like an F-16 canopy, created a minimum amount of distortion through its curves. One other chilling note is the driver had no internal release mechanism to exit. The canopy had to be released manually from the outside.

Wasn't MG EX/181 similar in that respect too? ISTR Moss writing something about not particularly liking it....? (or am I mixing it up with the bubble-canopied Lotus XI record car the tail of which fell off ?)


pete

[Ray Bell]

Moss indeed felt very claustrophobic in the EX181...

All the more so, as I recall, when smoke entered the cockpit on the slow down at the end of each run.

[theunions]

Does anyone know the competition history of the specific March 85C tub used? I'm assuming it's one AJ or Ziggy Snider ran at Indy in '85?

[doc540]

theunions, I don't think it was a previously run Indy car. Foyt kept the old March cars under plastic in the back of the shop, and I don't think this was one of them. I think (can't verify) Olds sprung for a brand new March and designed the two bodies around it. Estimates were they invested over 10 million large on the project.

Not only did they have the short and long-tailed bodies, they also had two different underbodies with differently configured venturi areas running from front to rear between the wheels and the tub to adjust the handling and aerodynamics.

Speaking of smoke....
During the first shakedown runs at the GM track an small fire developed.When it did indeed begin to burn, Foyt was making a run and the cockpit began to fill with oil fire smoke. He radioed in, told them about the fire, and headed toward the garage area which was quite a distance away. Foyt came in like a Hurricane smoking onto an old grass field, and pulled down onto the apron. They lifted the body and pulled a small piece of insulation away from the turbo. No big deal. Fire out, source determined and the test continues with little interruption.

Thinking back now, I believe the canopy could be released from the inside but due to its weight and being hinged at the front, a driver couldn't actually lift it to extract himself.

btw: The engineer on Foyt's radio during the world record runs who kept telling him to crank the boost higher was none other than the legendary Herb Porter, one of the most respected and brilliant engine builders in American auto racing history. He assisted Batten Engineering with their development of the single turbo Quad4. Here's a link about Herbie Horspower you might enjoy.

Herbie Horsepower

[m.tanney]

  The world closed course speed record. It's a subject that's interested me since I was a boy, reading about it in the Guinness Book of World Records. There's an elegant simplicity to it: the fastest lap of any track by any car. It's a real racer's record, one that was hotly contested in the early 1970s. In 1970, Buddy Baker pushed it past the 200mph mark at Talledega in a NASCAR Dodge Daytona. Bobby Isaac took it to 201.14 in a similar car. Then the USAC drivers took over. First Bobby Unser in an Eagle-Offy. In 1973 Mario Andretti drove a Parnelli-Offy to over 214mph. The following year, A.J. Foyt drove his Coyote-Foyt to a speed of 217.854. In 1975, Mark Donohue took the record to over 221mph in the Porsche 917 Can-Am car. After Donohue's death, Foyt and the others decided to let his record stand as a memorial. There were no futher challenges until GM built the Aerotech.
  A few years ago, I thought about writing a short piece on the closed course record for Fast Facts, the publication of The Speed Record Club. a UK-based organization of which I'm a member. Talk about opening a can of worms...I'd read about earlier closed course records. In 1922 Kenelm Lee Guinness laped Brooklands at 123.39mph, a record that fell two years later to Parry Thomas in his Leyland-Thomas at 124.12. On the board tracks, Frank Lockhart did 144.2 at Culver City and 147.229 at Atlantic City in 1927. The next year, Leon Duray lapped Packard's concrete test track at 148.17mph in a Miller FWD. In 1935, Hans Stuck turned a lap at 161.88mph at Avus. Two years later von Brauchitsch ran an amazing 174.38 on the same track in a streamlined Mercedes. In 1954, Chrysler opened its new test track at Chelsea, Michigan with record runs that saw Jack McGrath turn a lap at 179.386mph in his Kurtis-Offy roadster. In 1964, Foyt was thought to have lapped Firestone's Arizona test track at over 200mph. The next properly timed record was Jim Hurtubise's 191.938 lap of Daytona in the turbocharged Mallard-Offy roadster in 1968.
  Not knowing which of these records were official world's closed course records, and wondering if there were others I didn't know about, I got in touch with Burdette Martin, the head of ACCUS and chairman of the FIA's record committee. Imagine my surprise when he told me that there was actually no such thing as the official world's closed course speed record. It had never been an FIA category. Martin said that, because so many people had claimed the record over the years, the FIA finally (in the early '90s) decided to make it an officially sanctioned record. Whoever sets the next closed course speed record will be the first to be listed in the FIA's record books. Because there is no doubt about the validity of Foyt's speed in the Aerotech, any new record will have to surpass his speed.
  It would be interesting to know how "the closed course speed record" came into being, who first used the term, and how the record that isn't really a record became a record that so many sought.

  Mike

[doc540]

Thanks, Mike. Very illuminating.

Couple of questions:

Does the FIA require a speed average from two way runs before it's officially recognized?

And what official body recognizes the Bonneville records?

A friend of mine was a member of one of the earliest timing associations on Murock(sp?) dry lake.

Thanks again!

[diego]

Good info!

What's your relationship, if any, to the Olds project?

[doc540]

Nothing significant. Just visited the shop while they were building the cars and have a friend who crewed for Foyt during the 80's. He kept me apprised of the Aerotech project, took many pictures which I must get from him and post on the net someday, and often called me from the test tracks with the latest wild tales from the envelope's edge.

But from the first day I walked into the shop and laid eyes on it, the Aerotech captured my attention. At the time it was a rather ambitious project which required not only an experienced driver and crew, but a driver who wasn't gonadally challenged.

I've been remiss in neglecting to mention Bill Porterfield, former Oldsmobile/General Motors Project Engineer and Manager who was instrumental in the development and success of the Aerotech project. Without him I doubt the corporate bean counters at GM would have allowed it to unfold.

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by doc540
Does the FIA require a speed average from two way runs before it's officially recognized?

  Good question. I didn't think to ask Burdette Martin because I didn't know that Foyt had gone both ways. I assume that it's a one-way record. I'm pretty sure that all of the "record holders" listed above - with the exception of Guinness and Parry Thomas - went one way only. Those two drivers probably never heard of the "closed course record". They were seeking other records that required two-way runs. The first application of the term "world closed course record" seems to be with the Lockhart and Duray records. Whether the term was used at the time or invented later and applied retroactively, I do not know.

And what official body recognizes the Bonneville records?

  Straightforward question, complicated answer. The main organizing group at Bonnevlle is the SCTA. It sanctions its own records, but it cannot oversee world records. World records must be sanctioned by the FIA. Records set in the US have to go through the FIA's American ASN, which is ACCUS. In practice, they have to be overseen by approved stewards from an FIA/ACCUS affiliated organization. For most of the last century that was the AAA/USAC. Lately, it's been the SCCA. The SCTA does not have FIA approval, despite the fact that it has the most hands-on experience with recordbreaking. It has to pay for the stewards - something it's not too happy about. The whole FIA/ACCUS/SCTA relationship is a matter of ongoing debate and controversey in the speed record community.

[gmw]

As I understand it, records run on a straightaway must be run in two directions and averaged. Records run on a closed course are taken as measured, with probably a requirement that the distance must be at least one lap.
From a practical point of view 10 miles is about the longest straightaway available at Bonneville, so records for greater distances are run on a closed course: a race track, a test track or a 10 to 12 mile circle at Bonneville. The reason that Foyt had to run the Ft Stockton track in both directions was that they were running for a flying mile record using a mile of the straightaway.
Also FIA records for distances greater than 10 miles are standing start records, while record from 1 km to 10 miles are listed for both standing and flying start.
The fastest official record on a closed course that I know about was set by the Mercedes C111-IV at the Nardo track in southern Italy. 233.335 mph for 100 km and 228.196 for 100 miles from a standing start. It was set in 1979 by Dr. Hans Liebold. The 100 mile run took only 26 1/2 minutes. Michelin had rated the tires for a maximum of 30 minutes, so the run was ended at 100 miles. The C111-IV was a highly modified version of the C111 using a 500 HP turbocharged 4.8 liter V8.

[doc540]

"The reason that Foyt had to run the Ft Stockton track in both directions was that they were running for a flying mile record using a mile of the straightaway."

You know, while fishing yesterday I thought about this, and, not surprisingly, the solitude and scenery seemed to clear my head and allow me to think about your post.

It's very possible that the two way run on the oval was done to set only the flying mile record. Perhaps even though the oval was over 7 miles, the only way to reach optimum speed was to use its entire length.

I'll review the few news reports I've kept on file, and if necessary speak to someone on the team who may remember.


And, thanks for the info, tanney and gmw.

[oldtimer]

Strange how the Aerotech effort has slipped off the screen. I seem to remember reading about the e.fforts when they were news in R&T, and I must say the name A.J.Foyt grew mightily in my respect. I'm a Brit, and was then not too long in N. America, so I was less familiar with his driving achievements than the hot air he was wont to vent

[Lotus23]

AJ Foyt has not aged nearly so well as Mario Andretti, even allowing for their age difference. Sure, AJ is an irascible overweight gaffer now, but it's a shame that folks under a certain age weren't around when he was in his prime and a threat to win any race he entered.

The AJ they know isn't the same AJ many of us knew "back when".

I guess the secret of aging gracefully is to keep your waist thin and your hair thick!

[doc540]

After having contacted Bill Porterfield who ran the Olds Aerotech project, I've edited my posts above to more correctly reflect how the world speed records were set. Please note the changes.

And I want to publically thank Bill for taking the time to respond to my questions. In fact, there's a possibility that we may work together to create a website to document the project. It's an importent and unique part of automotive racing history yet there's a dearth of information available on video, in writing, or online.

I'm hoping in 2005 we can begin that project. Wouldn't that be something?!

[Buford]

Originally posted by Lotus23
AJ Foyt has not aged nearly so well as Mario Andretti, even allowing for their age difference. Sure, AJ is an irascible overweight gaffer now, but it's a shame that folks under a certain age weren't around when he was in his prime and a threat to win any race he entered.

The AJ they know isn't the same AJ many of us knew "back when".

I guess the secret of aging gracefully is to keep your waist thin and your hair thick!

Yes nobody could ever question his balls, just the part about being a dick.

[Ray Bell]

Undoubtedly the FIA's requirement for two-way runs for short records is due to the possibility of wind assistance... and to negate that...

And as far as I know, it's been that way since the first records were established. Certainly before the twenties and I have no doubt way back before 1910.

I think Frank Lockhart died on a return run, for instance.

[MPea3]

I don't mean this in any way to take away from A.J. Foyt's accomplishment, but standing on the beach at Daytona, seeing the width of the beach, the texture of the sand, and the roughness of the surface, I am in awe of the early LSR pioneers who ran the speeds they did in the 20's and 30's.

[MPea3]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Undoubtedly the FIA's requirement for two-way runs for short records is due to the possibility of wind assistance... and to negate that...

And as far as I know, it's been that way since the first records were established. Certainly before the twenties and I have no doubt way back before 1910.

I think Frank Lockhart died on a return run, for instance.

It was the return run requirement that I believe cost Mickey Thompson the record of being the first man over 400 mph in his quad engined Challanger 2.

Two-way runs are also the requirement for the water speed record. Donald Campbell lost his life on a return run.

[doc540]

Likewise, I wouldn't want to detract from all the safe-inside-a-car-with-four-wheels guys either, but imagine no brakes, no suspension, and balloon tires at 136mph on the sand in 1907..



Thank you, Mr. Glen Curtis.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by MPea3
It was the return run requirement that I believe cost Mickey Thompson the record of being the first man over 400 mph in his quad engined Challanger 2.

Two-way runs are also the requirement for the water speed record. Donald Campbell lost his life on a return run.

Campbell also had a run over 400mph on the Bonneville salt in the early sixties, but IIRC crashed 'heavily' on the return run.

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Undoubtedly the FIA's requirement for two-way runs for short records is due to the possibility of wind assistance... and to negate that...

And as far as I know, it's been that way since the first records were established. Certainly before the twenties and I have no doubt way back before 1910.

I think Frank Lockhart died on a return run, for instance.

  The flying mile and flying kilometre records set before 1910 were one-way only. From Posthumus and Tremayne's The Land Speed Record:

  During 1910 there was a significant development concerning the land speed
record. Largely at the instigation of Britain's Royal Automobile Club, the A.I.A.C.R. ruled that, from the beginning of 1911, two record runs, one in each direction, must be made on the same course, the deciding figure being a mean of the two times. This was, of course, to ensure that advantage was not taken of a strong wind in one direction or a favourable gradient. It was a fair and sensible arrangement, but the Americans, whose A. A. A. was still not recognized by the A.I.A.C.R. as the official adjudicatory body in the United States, decided to ignore it, continuing to recognize one-way records even though this isolated their achievements from those of Europe. This 'to hell with Europe' attitude, largely bred by irritation at repeated French rejection of American speed claims in the past, was to confuse the records issue for some years yet to come.

  The rapprochement between the A.A.A. and the A.I.A.C.R., and the universal use of the two-way average, was one of Henry Segrave's accomplishments:

  Having worked out the principle of the car, Coatalen passed the job of design development to Captain J.S.(Jack) Irving, while Dunlops got down to the formidable task of designing and building special tyres, and the driver, Henry Segrave, tackled the complicated arrangements for the record venue. For publicity purposes, the impressive name of the '1,000 h.p. Sunbeam' was agreed upon, even if its total power was somewhat less. It was estimated that the car, weighing 3 tons 16 cwt. with vital fluids aboard, would need a course nine miles long to attain its target speed, and that ruled out any beaches in Europe. Pendine, Southport, Saltburn and Fanoe were all too short and unpredictable, and Segrave decided that the famous Ormond-Daytona beach in Florida, U.S.A., was the only suitable place.
  His backers, who included Castrol, K.L.G., Dunlop, B.P., David Moseley and T.B.Andre, were less convinced; they preferred the attempt to take place on British soil somewhere. But so convinced was Segrave that Daytona was the only suitable course that he agreed to take the car there at his own expense, even to paying the mechanics who came over with him. Segrave also had the herculean task of persuading the A.A.A., the American premier motoring body, to join the A.I.A.C.R. in order that the latter would recognize any records he might establish on U.S. soil — a thing they had declined to do in the past when de Palma, Milton and Haugdahl made claims for the record.
  Then the A.I.A.C.R. demanded full particulars of the A.A.A.'s electrical timing apparatus, plus two independent certificates of accuracy, yet all this was accomplished by the full exercise of Segrave's noted charm and diplomacy....

  On March 29, 1927, Sir Henry Segrave broke the 200 mph barrier with an average speed of 203.793 mph for his two-way run at Daytona.

[D-Type]

Being picky, was Foyt trying to set an International Class record or a World record?

WB writing in Motor Sport always emphasised the distinction. I'm not sure of the details, there are a range of capacity classes from up to 250cc to over 8 litres. A car could set records within its class. If they were the fastest regardless of class they were also World records. Needless to say, advertising copywriters ignored the distinction (if they even realised there is one!).

For example the records set by George Eyston in the Magic Midget were International Class records in the 1100cc class, while those set by Ab Jenkins in the Mormon Meteor were International Class records in the over 8-litre class. They were also World records as they were the fastest regardless of class.

On the subject of records, does anyone know of a website listing World and International Class records?

[m.tanney]

  Foyt's flying mile record would have to have been an International Class Record. Any short distance record with a car like the Aerotech would, I would think, have to be a class record. He certainly would have had a shot at a World Record in one of the distance-for-a-given-time categories (the 1 hour, 6 hour, etc.) but, as far as I know, did not try for one. I doubt that even AJ would be brave enough, or mad enough, to try for an hour or more at speed on the Ft. Stockton track. Foyt's "World Closed Course Record" would have been a World record if it had actually been an FIA record category at the time, but it was not. This whole business of the Closed Course record really would make a fascinating story. I wish that one of the fine historians on this forum would take a crack at writing it up!
  The FIA's website has a couple of pdf listings of Class B and C records, but nothing like a comprehensive list of the current International Class Records. The AAA and USAC used to print the whole list in their yearbooks but I believe that they stopped doing so in the mid-1970s. Historical lists of all of the absolute LSR record holders are easy enough to find, but I've never seen anything similar for the other classes. A shame. A historic record book would be damned interesting, but I get the impression that speed records aren't of much interest to the FIA anymore - perhaps because most of them take place outside of Europe now.

Mike

[doc540]

This is indeed an interesting aspect of the Olds Aerotech project, and one that I look forward to researching.

A few years later, the Aerotech as modified to accept an Olds Aurora V8. It set 47...uhh... speed endurance records. I won't venture as to whether they're recognized by anyone apart from the engineers and drivers who accomplished the task.

[CJE]

Not the best photo in the world, but this will give you an idea of the Aerotech:

http://www.grandprix...&t=None&c=

http://www.forbes.co...eatslide_9.html

[ggnagy]

15 years? Wow! Now, for how many years before that did the MG hold the record?

I remember the R&T article about the Areotech and the Quad 4. One sidebar was about one of the engine designers who had put a detuned version of the motors used for the project into his personal Lotus 7 clone for the street... dynoed at over 400HP

There was also a Spice/Olds that raced in IMSA with a twin turbo quad 4, does anyone know if that project was related to the Aerotech? I remember seeing a demo engine on a stand and thinking the whole thing would slip right into the engine bay of a 'B

[doc540]

So far I've determined the single turbo engine was developed by Batten Engineering with Herbie Porter and the twin turbo was from Feuling Engineering. My guess would be the Feuling engine ended up in other applications.

But since Jim Feuling passed away a couple of years ago the site's down. The man was an engineering genious.