41 replies to this topic

[Pedro 917]

I found this picture in a Dutch magazine issued as a celebration of Porsche's 60th anniversary.
I would like to know as much as possible about the picture : when, where, driver, occasion....
My guess is that it was taken at Weissach during a press presentation somewhere around the end of 1969 or early 1970. On the picture I can identify Louis Klementaski (with bow-tie), Huschke von Hanstein and Helmut Bott. Not on the scan but also on the picture is Denis Jenkinson. A chassis number of the 917 will make my day !!

[Jack-the-Lad]

I'd bet that's Ferry Porsche to the right of Bott, hand in pocket (or is that Jenks?). What I can't figure out is what the car is doing. It looks like it's being driven off of a fairly high ramp. How can that be? Looking at the attitude of the front end, it doesn't look like it's carrying enough speed for the back end to clear the end of the ramp. Disaster in the making?

Jack

[eldougo]

: I agree with JACK it looks like the speed is way to low i bet that poor gearbox an tail pipes
coped a hideing on the end of the ramp .My guess they where testing for the jumps at
at the RING .;)

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Jack-the-Lad
I'd bet that's Ferry Porsche to the right of Bott, hand in pocket (or is that Jenks?). What I can't figure out is what the car is doing. It looks like it's being driven off of a fairly high ramp. How can that be? Looking at the attitude of the front end, it doesn't look like it's carrying enough speed for the back end to clear the end of the ramp. Disaster in the making?

Jack

A great picture pedro 917. I love this car. Especially in the Gulf design.

I'd bet that's Ferry Porsche to the right of Bott, hand in pocket(...))

Or Ferdinand Piëch?


Would be interesting to know, why they drove the car over the ramp.

[Henri Greuter]

Or perhaps being tested for the hump at the Le Mans Hunaudieres, the Mercedes launch pad of '99?
Talk about a strain test! The 917 had such a flexing chassis already....

Henri Greuter

[cjpani]

Luc, My guess is that the car is being put through a rough road or roller endurance test, as mentioned in this thread


http://www.atlasf1.c...?threadid=45765

In the chasiss registry that we share, shouldn´t be too hard to eliminate all those 917´s that were not put through this test; so we narrow the search

Carlos

[dbw]

as good a time as any to ramble on about the old days....to set the stage,i was graduating from a design program and tony lapine was in the states to recruit studio designers in the late '60s....i interviewed and found him a likable fellow...[no offer for me but i did get one from chrysler;another story]...needless to say a friend of mine, dave fleming, was hired and worked in an advanced studio at porsche....years later when i ran into him he told stories of wandering over to the test areas and watching cars running at full chat until somthing failed...the car was brought directly into the shop,repaired,bits added if they thought necessary and sent back out on the track...dave said this went on for days on end....also most everyone had access to a rather large pile of immensely wide mag rear rims[cracked] that,set on end with a suitable piece of glass, made a fine coffee table..one day he was approached by lapine to create "the wildest paint scheme ever seen on a porsche race car"..as a young man that had spent time in san fransisco in the '60s dave told me he just remembered what a poster for big brother and the holding co at the avalon ballroom would look like and laid it out on a 917....as i recall he not only did the original sketches,but picked the colors and actually helped apply masking tape to the car as the layers of paint were applied.he said the paint crew blanched at the particular hue of purple he had specified..thus the "hippie" 917 was created.i have no idea where dave is now but after his porsche stint he returned to the states a taught a various design schools...if anyone reading this was around porsche in those days you couldn't have missed him...he was rather shy, but was at least 6'-11"+ tall!

[Jack-the-Lad]

Holger,
I don't think that could be Piech. He's much taller than that, I believe.
Jack

[Holger Merten]

Jack, just an idea, I often saw Piech standing - one hand in pocket - waiting fo the next attack.

[Pedro 917]

Quote : originally posted by Holger Merten
A great picture pedro 917. I love this car. Especially in the Gulf design

Here's a picture (of a series of 58) that I took at Spa in May 1996 when they brought the beast back to celebrate the 25th anniversary of its last victory there.
The chassis # is 013-034 and the car is probably one of the most "original" 917s left. It was on display at the Stavelot museum for months and it took them some hours to get the engine running. It did two outings in between other races and was driven by Mark Lemmer and owner Mark Finburgh. The original chassis # 13 was the one David Piper crashed at Maison Blanche after a shoot for the Steve McQueen film "Le Mans". It was rebuilt by the factory for the 1971 season and given chassis # 34. It then won at Daytona, Monza and Austria in the hands of Pedro and Jacky Oliver / Richard Attwood, and the non-championship 1000 km race of Paris in the hands of Derek Bell and Gijs van Lennep. It's a beauty.......

[Holger Merten]

The 917 is special for me, especially in the Gulf-design. It's the first toy I really could remember, got this car 1969, three years old. And all I know is, it was successfull. Never tried to find out more, must be a fairytail in my life.

But I like it. And I was impresssed that Audi started again in the Gulf-design, Ross Stonefeld could tell us more about it.

[Pedro 917]

Here are the missing personalities of the first picture :



As you can see, the man with one hand in his pocket is not Piëch.
Another question : could the man with the pipe be the same as the one wearing the beige coat (with tie) in the picture below taken at Le Mans 1968 in the John Wyer pit :



And who is he?

[diego]

Perhaps Karl Ludvigsen can shed some light on this?

[dretceterini]

Isn't that H von H and Jenks on the right in the B&W photo?

[JACKINDYDUDE]

Gentlemen:
Thanks, that is the sweetest desktop ever

[ffiloseta]

I know this is quite non relevant but, since I was I kid I thought Racer X's car (from Speed Racer) was based on this car. He was the real hero, to me, and since, everything 917 grabs powerfully my attention.

[david_martin]

Originally posted by dretceterini
Isn't that H von H and Jenks on the right in the B&W photo?

I doubt you will get many arguments as to whether the bearded gnome on the extreme right front is DSJ ;)

[Bruce Moxon]

Who is he? Could it be Jackie Oliver?



Bruce Moxon

[TODave2]

One of my favourite cars. It's the back end I think - just shouts 'Power!'

[Holger Merten]

I searched all my Porsche relevant pictures from that time in my archive, to compare it - person by person - with the guys on the photo. But without HvH I couldn't find any responsibe Porsche-manager (like Metzger or Bott), Must has been really a press event. To show....what?

[Doug Nye]

Ahem - relax fellers - I was there. I'm in the photo, the receding hairline just visible behind DSJ on the extreme right. It's Weissach test track of course, and the event was a Porsche Weissach open day, presenting the newly developed centre to the specialist press.

I think it was about July or August time, 1972 - the year that Penske introduced the Porsche Panzer CanAm turbo Spyder in the US? In fact we happened upon Mark Donohue there with the extremely tatty, lashed-up 917/10 prototype Spyder, on test. He seemed extremely surprised, embarrassed and diffident when he found himself surrounded by press men.

I wrote up the car with pix for the following week's 'Autosport' magazine, and heard later that Roger Penske went apeshit at Porsche because he had a major press launch planned for the US in which the car would be sprung upon the media there as a completely unheralded surprise - shock and awe!

Well, DCN and Porsche between them blew the whole deal for him - and was he pleased about it???

The car in the photo is the works' 'red fire engine' 917K driven by 'old Mimmler', the resident test driver who knew the entire selection of alternative test tracks at Weissach so well I imagine he could have negotiated them at tremendous speed in his sleep.

Reading from right to left amongst the right-side group that is Jenks of course and the dark haired head just behind him is yrs trly, with (facing left) Tony Curtis of 'Motor' magazine, then the tall figure of John Aldington, head of Porsche Cars (GB) and in the foreground with the camera round his neck is a journalist whose name I'm afraid I forget, I believe from 'Autocar'. then a fellow whom I really do not recall at all (AS YOU WERE - looking at this again, I think this is indeed Dr Helmut Bott, chief engineer, who has just photographed rather oddly in this shot), then Der Baron of course...Fritz Huschke von NSKK himself.

This photo was taken at the test-circle end of the Weissach grounds, just at the end of the rough-road area where lane-width strips of Belgian pavee, broken rocks etc are interspersed by strips of alternative smoother surfaces. This jump had been set up on one of the smooth-surface strips, I presume to demonstrate endurance testing in preparation for something like the Nurburgring, with yumps to be endured...(or perhaps just for a bit of fun on this open day????)

This was the day on which we were all ushered into the engine test house to see a new turbocharged 917 flat-12 running on the dyno, blammm!!...the dyno indicator needle wound round the dial like that on a weighing machine with me jumping on it off a wall, and Peter Falk I think it was - the engineer in residence - who announced flatly "Gentlemen - ein souzand horzpower!".

DCN

PS - Mimmler took each of us in turn for a lap or two of one of the circuits, and rather impressive it was too. I remember thinking as he tossed the 917 flat-out into one blind right hander for which I'd been braking hard, forcing my right foot against the pedal-less bulkead, 200 metres earlier, "Blimey, if this is what it's like with 'old Mimmler' driving, whatever must it be like with Seppi or Pedro on maximum CHARGE!...".

[Barry Boor]

Apropos of nothing at all, here are a couple of pictures of JWA 917s taken in the paddock at Brands during BOAC race meetings. One is 1970 and the other is 1971.




Nothing special about the photos other than they are fabulous cars and photographed in their heyday.

I have just added a page of paddock shots from these 2 races to my Images website. You will find it at
http://members.atlas..._boor/boac.html

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Wonderful story Doug, and great photos Barry. I always loved the look of the Gulf 917's.

Here in the U.S. at least, the 1971 Steve McQueen movie "Le Mans" will be released on DVD in the original widescreen format on Tuesday April 29th.

I'm looking forward to watching it again.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Doug,

Thanks for the great story! I take it, then, that the back end successfully cleared the end of the ramp... What I wouldn't give for a ride around Weissach in one of those!

It seems odd that Porsche would have torpedoed Captain Penske's US press blitz, since one of the reasons for the campaign was to boost Porsche and Audi sales over here. A maximum-impact press launch would have been a good idea, unless Stuttgart felt Penske was taking rather too much of the glory for himself. I imagine L&M wasn't impressed, either!

Jack

[Doug Nye]

Jack - this was one of the instances which convinced me utterly of the cock-up theory of corporate and political life ... nothing was planned, nothing was intended, left hand simply did not know what right hand was doing, it was just a good old fashioned cock-up (mistake).

DCN

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by TODave2
One of my favourite cars. It's the back end I think - just shouts 'Power!'

Everything about that car shouted power. Downright scary in action with a Pedro or Seppi at the wheel, foot hard in it no matter how much it twitched or shook. 5 hours or so of listening to the shouting left you partially deaf for two or three days.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Doug Nye

This was the day on which we were all ushered into the engine test house to see a new turbocharged 917 flat-12 running on the dyno, blammm!!...the dyno indicator needle wound round the dial like that on a weighing machine with me jumping on it off a wall, and Peter Falk I think it was - the engineer in residence - who announced flatly "Gentlemen - ein souzand horzpower!".

DSJ wrote about this in "Porsche Past and Present":

"After the engine had been shut down for the third time, a photographer wanted to take a close-up, and so the engineer in charge opened the door of the test-house to let him in. I could not resist joining him, just to experience the pleasure of standing by an engine that had just been producing 1,000 hp. The air in the test house was very cool and there was no heat coming from the now stationary 917 engine .. after three runs in quick successsiion to 'Ein tousand horsepower'. I am not saying that the engine was driven by an electric motor for exhibition purposes, but I do recall some of te subterfuges we got up to at RAE Farnborough when we let the public in to ogle at what was going on."

[Pedro 917]

Thanks a million Doug, great story !!

Could this be a picture of the engine test house ?
From "A visit to Weissach" in Auto Motor und Sport 1972 #11 of 1972 (end of May) :



and one of the pictures of Mark Donohue in the 917-10 at Weissach :

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
...then Der Baron of course...Fritz Huschke von NSKK himself.

should rather read Fritz Huschke von SS himself...

http://www.historisc.../00039586_M.JPG
http://www.historisc.../00046868_M.JPG

[Doug Nye]

I thought it would be simply OTT, too extremely non-PC, absolutely non-U, to mention the SS rather than the NSKK, but OTOH perhaps I was BUTBS...????

DCN

[uechtel]

but it is fact...

Sorry for being non-abbreviationalist, so IIUYR then certainly the better strategy would have been to omit the reference to this period completely

I did not have the intention to give this thread a new direction, only to correct a minor imprecission before it can spread elsewhere.

So please carry on with that fantastic Porsche stuff.

[dretceterini]

Are you guys trying to create some new cryptic code in Welsh?

[Doug Nye]

Stu - ANOB, TTFN - DCN

[Viss1]

So, Mr. Nye, what happened to the Porsche after it cleared the jump? A nice spark show and an expensive-sounding thud?

[Doug Nye]

Nah - thump, mild rebound efficiently damped, slight hesitation in exhaust note then boom away for another lap. As far as I can recall Mimmler went round and took the yump at least three or four times for the photographers' benefit. If the car had had hair, it would not have turned one at such mistreatment...it had been designed to endure and survive.

DCN

[karlcars]

I'm sure glad that Doug was able to respond to that one because it had me puzzled. Great shot and great story! Obviously there were press guys standing on both sides of the demo area!

By the bye it's Mimler, not Mimmler.

[Doug Nye]

Thanks Karl. What was Herr Mimler's christian name? I can never remember it...I just recall DSJ being convinced it was always 'Old' Mimler, nothing more. His was a familiar face and he seemed to have been around for years - true or false? He was certainly quick enough in the 917.

DCN

[David M. Kane]

According to Brian Redman, Helmut Bott was a Panzer Commander. If you were
German I don't think you had much choice. Just as if you were English or American, you joined up. I was not however aware of the SS connection for
Von H. I am much more upset with the former head of the FIA being a collabator, now that is not correct.

[Beejay17]

I am not aware of H von H background, not being astute enough to pick up the book when it passed me by. However I am always amused at SOME of the automatic assumptions people make about service with German units during WWII.

By political circumstance (conscription), my grandfather served with the medical branch of an Estonian regiment of the German army during the war. My brother-in-law saw a photo we have of my grandfather in a studio shot. He is in full uniform and as was fashionable at the time, he had a short cropped mustache similar to that worn by Hitler. The reaction was one of shock, and the brother-in-law remarked how his own father, a Lancaster bomber pilot, would have been horrified to see it. Yet my grandfather was merely a doctor caught up in circumstance, not a monster.

[CarlBauer]

Hubert Mimler Obituary Christophorus (Porsche factory magazine) No. 161 October 1982

[fbarrett]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
What was Herr Mimler's christian name?

DCN

Doug:

Hubert.

FB

[marcone]

Hey guys, just wanted to say how cool it is to see you lot talking about my granddad - especially after him being dead for such a long time. Thanks for keeping his memory alive!

Take care!