22 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

Oh No! Another 1950s conundrum!

In 1952 there was an F1 race at Les Sables. The circuit is given as 1.46 miles, which matches the one in my old book. The race was 136 laps.

BUT, in 1953 the race was 2 x 45 lap heats and the lap length is given as 1.83 miles.

Can anyone throw light on the second circuit, please.

[Roger Clark]

The Motor Sport report of the 1953 race says that the circuit was lengthened and improved, but doesn't say in what way.

The 1952 race was F2, not F1, and was run over 3 hours duration. The winner did cover 136 laps.

[Marcor]

In 1952 the seaside city Les Sables d'Olonnes was the host of the 6th GP de France, on July 13. It was a 3-hour F2 race. The 2.2 km track was in very bad condition, without interest and dangerous. In some bends, the coating changed in tatters.

So not surprisingly the 1953 GP des Sables d'Olonnes (F2 race) used a new track.

[josvdp]

I once went there for my holiday - really nice place tho in the last few years its a bit more commercial - great seafood

[humphries]

Barry

The 1952 circuit of Les Sable d'Olonne encompassed the small, sandy area of pines called the Foret de la Rudeliere and some little man-made lakes leading down to the road that runs along the side of the promenade. The circuit was officially 2.277km and had been used in 1951 when Andre Simon won in a Gordini. The road surface was O.K. but sand got everywhere making the circuit very slippery, like the old Zandvoort circuit used to be.

In 1953 the circuit was modified, and the run down the prom road extended to a hairpin bend in a Place thus making the return run back along the start/finish straight, past a leisure centre, also longer. The circuit was now roughly triangular in shape. The circuit length was 2.980Km and just a little faster. In this form Maurice Michy won the sports car GP the following year in Maserati A6GCS and the 5th GP, held in 1956, was won by Benoit Musy in his Maserati 300S.

Easy pickings were also to be had by David Piper in 1956 driving his Lotus XI in the 1100cc sports car race. It must have been dawning on Piper that with half-decent cars and a willingness to travel a reasonably lucrative and very enjoyable living could be had from motor-racing. I bet his autobiography would make interesting reading.

John

[gdecarli]

I'm trying match info taken from this forum, from a modern citymap from Sables d'Olonne official website and from map on The Gel Motorsport and here following is the result:



Tranchet lake layout is quite different between this map and one on The Gel Motorsport, so I think that all eastern section of the track (right on the map) doesn't fit to roads because this area is quite changed since 1950s. Is it correct? Or The Gel Motorsport map is inaccurate?

And what about longer layout? Is it correct?

Ciao,
Guido

[humphries]

Guido

On the original circuit the cars turned right after the Parc de Sports, but no traffic island then, along the Route de Tour de France and turned left into the Avenue De Lac. Back then there was a crescent shaped grassed area just before the junction and the cars had to go to the right of it and a grandstand was erected so the cars could be seen negotiating this tricky chicane. Down past the lake and they turned right onto the seafront boulevard which, of course has since been renamed. The cars then went across a small square and down the Avenue de Tranchet to the Place de Shawbach and back along the Avenue Rhin et Danube to the finishing line by the Parc de Sports. The only bit that seems to have changed, besides the traffic island, is the junction of the seafront road and the Av. de Tranchet which now appears to be a T junction. This is the 1951-1952 circuit.

The slightly longer circuit incorporated most of this circuit but ran further down the seafront road, round a hairpin bend and up the Avenue Paul Doumer and straight across the Place de Shawbach which now has been developed into another roundabout. This was the 1953-1956 circuit.

The roads have hardly changed from the 1950's or when I drove round them in the 1970's and neither has all the blown sand. The concrete barriers that divded the lake up now appear to have gone and the lake has hopefully been landscaped.

John

[Barry Boor]

Thanks for all this info, everyone.

Guido, the track I am currently racing on is the one you have drawn in blue, which is as per my 1955 Directory.

Maybe if I race there again I will use the longer version.

[gdecarli]

Thanks very much humphries.
According to your description and city map, I tried to draw a new track map:



Is it better?

If so, this means that all maps I've seen till now (i.e. on The Gel Motorsport) are inaccurate; maybe they are drawn in perspective. Can you confirm this?

Thank you

Ciao,
Guido

[humphries]

Guido

Almost exact, except that the track went just a little above the word Route before swinging down the Av du Lac. On the key the 1951-2 circuit is blue and the 1953-56 extension is green.

Many circuit maps in newspapers and from programmes are drawn by artists rather than those made by surveyors and there is often a perspective to be taken into consideration. As for the maps on GEL, I would not know. I have not really studied any circuit diagrams on the site.

John

[Barry Boor]

John, at risk of repeating myself to many of the members of TNF who have been around for some time, this particular map from the GEL site is one of many that I have passed on to Darren Galpin.

My source is a rarely seen book produced by Autosport magazine in 1955 entitled the Autosport Directory. It has been my bible of mid 1950's circuit plans for over 40 years and I am marginally devastated to find that some of the track plans in there are inaccurate.

I have been building slot race tracks for my hobby for decades, using what I now know to be 'wrong' maps. Can you suggest where I can go (sensible answers please!) to get correct ones? It's too late to change Les Sables because I have already started my race there.

http://website.lineone.net/~barrybboor

[gdecarli]

John
thank you for your suggestion , I modified again the map (and I have uploaded it to my website). This is the particular of that area:



Is it what you mean?
Than you also for key colors: I knew 1951 blue and 1953 green but I don't know why I wrote the opposite
Maybe too tired? :yawn:

Barry
I really don't want to cause you so many problems with my map...
I find only a very few "wrong" map on Darren's and Dan's websites, so I think that you can be quite confident about your book! Maybe this track is like Reims and Erding, quite often (always?) drawn with a wrong layout.

Indeed, it is not "wrong" but I think that John gave us a good explanation of what happened.

If you have any doubt, I think that only aerial photos and city maps can help you in finding mistakes and that's is why I like to check in such a way (if possible) all track maps I have.
I like this track-hunting...

Ciao,
Guido

[Ray Bell]

I like your penchant for accuracy Guido...

Are there any Australian circuits you need help with?

[gdecarli]

Well, the only one I really need help with was misterious Melbourne, but you have already helped me identifiyng it as a Calder proposal (http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=58740).
I like to solve puzzles and mystery (where that track was? What was its layout? ...) rather than draw maps of well-known circuits.
Now I'm working on Italian circuits, as it is easier for me to look for infos, but I have no problem to work also on foreign tracks, as I have just did with Les Sables d'Olonne and Luzhniki.

Now in my list I have no Australian mystery, but as soon as there is one, it'd like to have such a thread!

Ciao,
Guido

[humphries]

Guido

Yep, that's about it. In the 50's the edges of the roads, out of town, in France and other Med countries, as you probably well know, were not defined by kerbs and that was the case for part of the Les Sables circuit. The width of the tarmac varied considerably on the same road. In comtemporary photos the roads appear to be narrower than the roads are today. The finishing straight was lined with straw bales, but the roads down to the front were ill-defined and with the sand caused a melee in the 1952 race. The road along the seafront was called the Boulevard de l'Atlantique before the switch to Kennedy.

What I have tried to acquire but without success is a large scale Michelin book of maps from the 1950's. Virtually all the roads would still have been the same as they were pre-WW2 and probably pre-WW1. Something like that would be very useful for you track hunters. The big changes to the roads in France have happened in the last 30 years, especially with the mania for roundabouts. Follow the Tour de France and you will see what I mean.

Barry

The "Autosport" Directory is very useful. "Motor Racing" produced something similar. The Les Sables map in the Autosport Directory has been transposed into a map from a perspective diagram I should think. The maps in there are O.K.

Libraries are helpful if you offer to pay. Some then do it for free.

The library at La Boule sent me a circuit diagram of the airport circuit the size of a table cloth, some libraries have drawn circuits onto modern maps for me, others gave precise directions for me to do the plotting, an East German library sent me a little map from a newspaper plus 4 other photocopies and a bill for £48! The Wall had yet to come down and I think they thought the roads of the West were paved with gold.

John

[David Beard]

Originally posted by humphries


Easy pickings were also to be had by David Piper in 1956 driving his Lotus XI in the 1100cc sports car race. It must have been dawning on Piper that with half-decent cars and a willingness to travel a reasonably lucrative and very enjoyable living could be had from motor-racing. I bet his autobiography would make interesting reading.

John

On it's way, apparently

[Don Capps]

Here is how the Wauwatosa-Milwaukee road race course looked in 2000:

http://terraserver-u...y=2983&z=16&w=2

This was the site of the 1912 American Grand Prix and W.K. Vanderbilt, Jr. Cup races and where David Bruce-Brown was killed.

The course is formed at the bottom by Burleigh Ave and the eastern edge of the course is Fond Du Lac (formerly North Fond Du Lac Road) and the northern edge is West Silver Springs Dr (formerly North Milwaukee Ave) and the western edge is West Appleton (formerly South Fond Du Lac Rd). Interesting that I have actually been over this route and never realized that it was the 1912 circuit.....

By the way, excellent work, Guido!

I was a bit amazed to find that I have picked up something like 850+ circuit maps, photos, and topos for just about nothing but American tracks! Just is just in electrons! However, it is an interesting subject all of its own and I can sympathize with Barry since I have often found that what was presumed to be the "shape" of a circuit is at times at variance with reality. This is one reason I have Terraserver such a neat research tool -- at times.....

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by gdecarli
Well, the only one I really need help with was mysterious Melbourne.....

You've sorted out Woody Point then? How about Wirlinga-Thurgoona?

[gdecarli]

Thank you for your compliments

Originally posted by Ray Bell


You've sorted out Woody Point then? How about Wirlinga-Thurgoona?

I think there is a linguistic misunderstanding

I meant that till now I had no opportunity to solve any Australian puzzle because I don't know any puzzle at all.
I don't know how to explain better in English: if I know that there is a trach in such a town, and I know some more info I can investigate about it, but if I have never heard about...!

So I have not sorted out anything, but I don't know them at all. I only recall something about Woody Point, but I'm still lurking on old threads

Ciao,
Guido

[Ray Bell]

Just call when you're ready for the tricky ones...

The three manifestations of Narrogin... the triangular Phillip Island... Toodyay... Geraldton... the Vale circuit... Benalla...

There's only a few over a hundred.

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by humphries
Guido

Almost exact, except that the track went just a little above the word Route before swinging down the Av du Lac.
John

The road sweeps left and then right over the word "du", crossing the end of the little feeder stream la Tanchette, before it becomes the lake. There is a period colour photo of a little Porsche and and Alfa coupe doing just that in a book I found in the les Sables archives in their Town Hall, such obliging people, along with a copy of the official 1948 Government map of the town, the nearest they had prior to 1951. Details of that info and photos of roads to follow next week. Jean Behra apparently had pieces of lemon generously supplied by the local hotel threaded on string round his neck so he could suck them and avoid dehydration.

Results found on the excellent F2 website.
http://www.formula2.net/

http://www.formula2.net/F251_20.htm

http://www.formula2.net/F252_26.htm

Roger Lund

[GIGLEUX]

Can our dear Moderator change the title of this thread in "Les" Sables d'Olonne in place of "Las"?

[bradbury west]

Stuart, if there are too many photos, feel free to delete or curtail. RL

Further to the details of my last visit, it is worth noting that the local newspaper has a very comprehensive and enthusiastic archive section, to which the Town Hall Archivist directed me, but which I did not pursue. Details of the Town Hall Archive; archives......@lessablesdolonne.fr delete the dots
opening hours all year, Wednesday 10 to 12noon, other weekdays 2pm until 5pm.
An A4 copy of the 1948 Govt map was 18eurocentimes.

Photos of the full circuit. Inevitably development has changed it somewhat, mainly with a central reservation along the long straight from the hairpin through the start/finish and to the first corner.The 1948 map shows much less housing, and the Route du Tour de France was not there then, just the link road from the smaller roundabout down to the lake crossing.

My understanding from one of the books is that the idea came from a group of sporting gentlemen meeting in the casino, which is where the start was. Their ambition was for a street circuit to rival Pau and others. There were several races with a range of classes, esp Touring Cars <750cc and 750<2000cc and over

The Casino


Looking back up the grid/start area.


First short straight after start.


First corner T rt through red and blue signs.


Exit into rt hander onto Rte de TdF.


towards lefthander over the bridge


left and right over the bridge


exit bridge onto short straight


right hander prior to pumping station


sharp rt onto seafront promenade/ Boulevard de l’Atlantique.


exit onto seafront


looking back down the straight to pumping station corner


short circuit turns rt through red sign.


second part of seafront straight, over the brow.


over the brow, down the slope, to hairpin right at les Presidents apartments and up the hill


looking back down the hill to les Presidents


approaching Schwabach roundabout, with new floral island. Schwabach is the German town with which they are twinned.


finishing straight exiting second roundabout.


According to the notes in one of the books, the 1956 event was required to run outside the built-up areas, in the aftermath of the 1955 le Mans deaths. The proposed route of 2.163kms was too short and interest was lost thereafter

For those wishing to trace the books;
Les Annees Cinquantes aux Sables d’Olonne, part of the Claude Thomas series
The 2 colour photos of the Porsche/Alfa and the grid with 3 HWMs plus mechanics and Trintingnant further up the grid in 1953 are credited to Yves Dangla (pere) , so there may be more available.
Instants d’Eternite aux Sables d’Olonne, Un Siecle et Demi de Photographie by Patrice Bernard, a 3000 copy run. ISBN 2-9523164-0-6
Google him as he has website.

I imagine that the relevant archive departments may be able to direct historians in the appropriate directions.

Roger Lund