36 replies to this topic

[Henri Greuter]

For the avid collectors of Yearbooks on the Indy 500.

Well, we had Clymer do the job from '46-'68
Carl Hungness doing '69-'97
Donald Davidson doing '74 and '75
IMS themselves from '91 to '01

For the time being: 2002 will be the first year that historians don' have a yearbook to consult anymore'. IMS won't release a 2002 yearbook, I have this info from within the IMS organisation.

Better download as much 2002 material from their website and print it out if you need hardcopies and/or other printed material for your archives.

Further comments?

Oh, it's all been said but won't be done I'm affraid.




Henri Greuter

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
.....Further comments?.

Not from me... but I know a certain banned member who would have cast aspersions on the managment and included details of just why this has happened.

And why it wouldn't have under different circumstances...

[theunions]

I assume Hazleton's plans to produce an Autocourse 2003 500 Yearbook, as advertised during the Open Wheel Summit at IMS this May, are progressing forward . Is the touted Sept. publication date still good?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
Further comments?

Yes - hope that Tony George has a fatal accident or finds God or something and Carl Hungness does a catch-up book along the lines of 1969-72.

Having said that, the Indy Review yearbooks were appalling anyway, the one for 2001 did not even have shots of all of the 500 starters which is unforgiveable. The previous ones were sorely lacking on times or 'missed the fields'.

The previous IRL books reminded me of the adage that if you have an infinite amount of monkeys at typewriters and an infinite amount of time you will get the works of Shakespeare. And if you have 2 monkeys and 10 minutes you get the IRL yearbook.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by ensign14
Yes - hope that Tony George has a fatal accident or finds God or something and Carl Hungness does a catch-up book along the lines of 1969-72.....

Another Buford fan!

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Another Buford fan!

Buford was an argumentative old bugger but I really do miss his stories of the murky underside of the US racing world!

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Another Buford fan!

Fair to say more of a Hungness fan (the quirks in the yearbook made it all the more endearing), and eternal enemy of Tony 'BS' George, but yeah I did enjoy Buford's stories, still wonder who he was.

[eldougo]

Originally posted by ensign14 but yeah I did enjoy Buford's stories, still wonder who he was.

He was a guy who called it like it was and some People did not like it.!!!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by eldougo
He was a guy who called it like it was and some People did not like it.!!!

Funny...

I never met any!

[fines]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Not from me... but I know a certain banned member who would have cast aspersions on the managment and included details of just why this has happened.

And why it wouldn't have under different circumstances...

Well, the different circumstances would've been CART running the "500", wouldn't it? In that case, it would've happened a few years later, because then we wouldn't have a "500" at all, anymore!

Regardless of what you think of Tony George, I still stand by my reckoning that he saved the Indy 500 from doom!

[mhferrari]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Another Buford fan!

How could anybody not be one?

[Doug Nye]

I haven't been paying attention. Your multiple mentions of the lamented Buford intrigue me. What's happened to him? Is he OK? What's this all about?

DCN

[mhferrari]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I haven't been paying attention. Your multiple mentions of the lamented Buford intrigue me. What's happened to him? Is he OK? What's this all about?

DCN

He was a very opinionated poster, who I believe stopped posting.

He is OK for all I know.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I haven't been paying attention. Your multiple mentions of the lamented Buford intrigue me. What's happened to him? Is he OK? What's this all about?

DCN

Buford is doing fine and very busy with his "endeavors." He and I exchanged emails several weeks ago. "Buford" is the nom de guerre of someone whose exploits in the world of Midwest racing are not only entertaining but the Real Deal. Buford is someone with strong opinions and expresses them freely and bluntly. As exasperating as Buford could be at times (like many of us), it was always clear as to where he stood and, most importantly, why on certain issues, most particularly those concerning the CART/IRL schism and Boy, er, ah, Tony George.

Just type "Buford" into the search feature and sit back and be prepared to be entertained.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Don Capps


Buford is doing fine and very busy with his "endeavors." He and I exchanged emails several weeks ago. "Buford" is the nom de guerre of someone whose exploits in the world of Midwest racing are not only entertaining but the Real Deal. Buford is someone with strong opinions and expresses them freely and bluntly. As exasperating as Buford could be at times (like many of us), it was always clear as to where he stood and, most importantly, why on certain issues, most particularly those concerning the CART/IRL schism and Boy, er, ah, Tony George.

Just type "Buford" into the search feature and sit back and be prepared to be entertained.

As an intermittant frequenter of these pastures, I was wondering what had happened to Buford. I have to say that this board is the poorer if he is no longer posting.

[dbltop]

I also have often wondered who he was,or if I would have recognized his real name. His opinion of Tony George is parallel to mine and his posts were always entertaining. Has he really been banned? If not, ask him to come back next time you email him, would you please Don.

[Don Capps]

Buford is quite busy with the demands of his business enterprises and, as he informs me, would have little time for TNF regardless of the circumstances. And, yes, I begged.....

[Don Capps]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.....

I have the Hungness books from the 1969/1972 composite edition to the strange 1997 edition; a few of the Clymer editions, the 1909/1941 composite and the 1946 thru 1948, 1957 and 1959, and 1968 annuals; and the Haymarket CART annuals from 1993 onward; a few of the "Men & Machinnes of Indy Car Racing" annuals, 1987, 1988, and 1992; and the CART PPG books, 1981, 1982-1983, and 1984; Indy Review 1996 thru 2001. Plus a few odds and ends tossed in here ad there on top of all this.

Perhaps there will be a retrospective edition for 2002 as was done by Hungness for the 1969/1972 seasons? Or, perhaps there will be a more complete and more coherent edition brought out to cover the 1996 and later years? Indy Review on the whole is pretty thin and often woefully incomplete and poorly done.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Originally posted by Don Capps
Buford is quite busy with the demands of his business enterprises.....

The mind boggles with the possiblities of that statement.

I too would add my voice to the chorus of those hoping for a return of Buford.

[mhferrari]

Originally posted by Don Capps


Buford is doing fine and very busy with his "endeavors." He and I exchanged emails several weeks ago. "Buford" is the nom de guerre of someone whose exploits in the world of Midwest racing are not only entertaining but the Real Deal. Buford is someone with strong opinions and expresses them freely and bluntly. As exasperating as Buford could be at times (like many of us), it was always clear as to where he stood and, most importantly, why on certain issues, most particularly those concerning the CART/IRL schism and Boy, er, ah, Tony George .

Just type "Buford" into the search feature and sit back and be prepared to be entertained.

I thought I was the only one who called Tony George, Boy George.

http://www.atlasf1.c...ight=Boy George

Sorry you had to look at Readers' Comments.

[Gerr]

Henri, you should add the "1971 Racing Scene Indianapolis 500" yearbook to your list. I don't know if other years were available.

theunions, Hazelton's website still says September.

Fines, well said.

[karlcars]

Wow, somebody else who's missing the 1958 Clymer Yearbook. I have duplicates of some of the early ones that I'd be happy to swap for a '58.

[Henri Greuter]

Gerr wrote:

Henri, you should add the "1971 Racing Scene Indianapolis 500" yearbook to your list. I don't know if other years were available.

theunions, Hazelton's website still says September.

===

Gerr,

I only listed the annual series devoted to indy only of which I know at least more than one have peen released. The book you mention is new to me.
Another that could go in support of the yearbooks would be "Indy from behind the garage doors", very informative about the cars and technology of 1988.

I wasn't aware of Hazelton taking over the series! Now we may have hope for books of at least Hungness quality again, if IMS itself is not too much involved with it.
The Indy Reviews were indeed lemons, one eyed kings in the land of the blind when Hungness was pushed aside. I must phrase this carefully but the difference between the Hungness books and Indy Review was, in my eyes that is, the fact that Carl Hungness always had his entire company at stake and some of his own money. He had to made something good because he partly lived from it. The Indy review authors however, they had much less at stake than Carl had. In case of a disaster, IMS took the blame and the loss, not them!
And of course the question will always be how much IMS wanted the public to know what happened. I can't help it but the objectiveness of the `review' books is something I always questioned, given the publisher who released them. Hungness was biased too in his later books but before he got into troubles he did a good job, given what he had to work with and deal with.
Wonder how Hazleton will deal with this matter.


To Karl Ludvigsen,

Those books you have to offer for swap better be books like the '52 '56 '60 and '67.
Thjose are the other 4 in addition to the '58 that are notoriously tough to get and being the most valuable Clymers. Some others are also getting rare nowadays (63, 64 and 65) but '58 is indeed the most difficult one and the better the condition, the higher the prize.

Henri Greuter

[Don Capps]

Yeah, I HAD a 1958 yearbook, but it was in the same box with my 1955 thru 1960 Autocourses (there were a few issues missing, perhaps two or three) and 1949 thru 1967 Yearbooks (the 1957 & 1959 are spares I had) that the Army sent somewhere but not to where they were supposed to go. One of the occupational hazards of life in the military -- give them enough opportunities by "moving" often enough (we call it "PCS'ing" for Permanent Change of Station) and despite your best efforts things disappear. Large as well as small -- no clue to this day as to what happened to a sofa of ours!

One of my projects is to see about getting the IMRRC a complete issue of the Clymer and Hungness Yearbooks (Hungness might be missing only the composite issue and/or 1973), USAC Yearbooks (perhaps only a few are now missing), and those sorts of items so that scholars have access to these materials at least somewhere without the usual hassles.

A Plea to authors: Please send at least one copy of your book to the IMRRC. This is a huge help to establishing the sort of reference facility that we all want -- one with a reference library that holds the meek and mild along with the great and mighty.

[theunions]

While I own every single Hungness issue and all of the Indy Reviews except 1993-95 (found '91 and '92 at $10 apiece at a Half Price Books in Indy this May), I only have three Clymers...and '58 is one of them. Well worth the wait.

[Barry Lake]

At the beginning of 1976, Classic Motorbooks in Osceola, Wisconsin, then owned by Thomas E Warth, had many of the Clymer Indianapolis 500 Yearbooks on sale.

I got 1946 and 1947 for a dollar each ($Aus), for example, and many of the others for two, three or four dollars each. A friend went on a speedway tour including the Indy 500 that year and filled in most of the gaps for me at around 10 dollars apiece from tables at various venues.

When I learned that 1958 and 1967 were rare (a warehouse fire or flood for one, I believe, and my memory is saying something like maybe a truck crash and burn for the other...) I bumped the average price per issue off the scale by paying $Aus110 (a HUGE sum for me then) for the 1958 issue, from Motor Book Postal Auctions in the UK (this was still in 1976).

My friend went on the speedway tour again in 1977 and was able to fill the last few gaps in my collection - except for 1967.

I chased that one for the next eight years - finally paying a massive $Aus200 for it from a rare motoring book dealer in the US in 1985.

And I was very pleased when Hungness, in 1981, filled in the 1969-72 gaps with his compilation book on this era ($Aus21 from Classic Motorbooks, including postage, in 1982). The Clymer 1909-1941 book I bought from Classic Motorbooks in 1980 for $Aus4.

Thomas E Warth, now a rare motoring book dealer himself, came to my home three or four years ago and offered me a sizeable profit on the bargains he'd sold me more than two decades earlier (although he knew in advance I wouldn't take it).

Invested conservatively at an average of seven per cent per year, compounded, my $110 from 1976 should be getting close to $440 by now. Invested in quality shares, it could be more than $2000. That's an expensive soft-cover booklet!

(And yes, I do have all 11 Indy Review books, as bad as they are - but most of them I waited until they reached bargain prices before I bought them.)

[theunions]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
Gerr wrote:

Henri, you should add the "1971 Racing Scene Indianapolis 500" yearbook to your list. I don't know if other years were available.

Gerr,

I only listed the annual series devoted to indy only of which I know at least more than one have peen released. The book you mention is new to me.

Current eBay auction for uncirculated warehouse copy

It doesn't appear there were subsequent editions, unfortunately.

[Don Capps]

Silly me, I have never thought of my books and so forth in terms of being an "investment" -- more like (especially to She Who Must Be Obeyed) a deficit! In reality, I am often just pretty much oblivious to the investment aspects of my books and so forth -- except that I am painfully aware of the presence of Gordon Gekko and his Gang in this little world since the prices have often taken leaps and bounds that never cease to astound me.

As a certified Information Socialist I try not to choke too often when I purchase books to replace those that I have lost over the years. I am certain that someday I will end up buying back one of my "missing" books. I almost thought I had a few years ago...another long story....

[Seppi_0_917PA]

Opportunity To Purchase The Entire Inventory of Carl Hungness Publishing

http://cgi.ebay.com/...3825009421&rd=1

[T54]

Regardless of what you think of Tony George, I still stand by my reckoning that he saved the Indy 500 from doom!

I really would like to know how you figure this one out with the TV ratings the lowest since the race has been televised and an spectator attendance down every year since 1995.
At this time, I personally feel that this now incredibly boring race (speed and close racing is not all what counts to make a race interesting) has reached a low point. I used to anxiously wait for the month of May and all the events, day per day. Now I really don't care to even watch the race.
Then again I don't watch too much of ChampCar either anymore...
The heroes are retired.

[Don Capps]

I ordered the Haymarket edition of the Indianapolis annual and then had Amazon tell me that they are apparently not going to get it and therefore my order was being cancelled; now Classic Motorbooks also seems to also be in the seriously long wait mode. I have the idea that this book may not be seeing the light of day. Anyone else still waiting?

[Phil Harms]

I also have never considered my racing books/research files as investments. Investments are only beneficial if one can sell at a profit, which I never intend to do. I'll leave that to my sons to decide. They do know that some are difficult to find (such as Gerald Rose' classic); they'd probably just go to ebay. I'd much rather donate than sell.

I have complete sets of Speed Age, Clymer, Hungness and Indy Review. All are rich in research material, although the term has to be stretched quite a bit to include IR. A real disappointment -- looks to be put together by the photo department.

The real meat of the Indpls 500 is contained in the Timing & Scoring reports as well as AAA supplemental reports -- pit stops, qualifying details, tech inspection reports, etc. I have most of the T&S reports but missing 1956-66, 1969-70 and 1980. Be glad to swap data if anyone has any of the missing years.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Don Capps
I ordered the Haymarket edition of the Indianapolis annual and then had Amazon tell me that they are apparently not going to get it and therefore my order was being cancelled; now Classic Motorbooks also seems to also be in the seriously long wait mode. I have the idea that this book may not be seeing the light of day. Anyone else still waiting?

I've got it but it's on my long reading list. From here. Looks pretty good from first glance, with 10-lap lapcharts and records of all the qualification attempts, and a Donald Davidson article. But twice as glossy and half the contents of the Hungness books.

As for the investment thing...no I do not intend to sell. But there is a certain perverse pleasure in watching the value of books skyrocket when they were bought cheaply. Plus I have a little nest egg for a rainy day.

[Don Capps]

My books are in no way, shape or form anything that remotely could be considered an investment -- as in a commodity. They are simply research materials that I use in my puttering around with this stuff I look into or write about.

I get seriously and severely screwed all the time by bookdealers as I try to either replace books or add them to my research materials. To them, the books are commodities, to me they are books. Big difference in how we approach them.

I have managed to pull together a lump of research materials over the years. As I consider the idea that at some point in the future that Life could change, I think that it is clear that whatever that I have that the IMRRC needs or could use, the IMRRC gets.

Some of my stuff I have dragged around for years and years. Some is quite recent in either its publication or my acquisition. What I have discovered is that I would rather donate it than sell it. To me, my materials have no "value" in the usual sense of dollars. I am just as happy with copies of material as the genuine article in almost every case. I am more concerned with the information and the stories than with the article as an article. This is not to say that there aren't some books that are "special." However, these are generally the exception rather than the rule.

I hope that at some point Phil decides to donate his materials to the IMRRC rather than having them be parceled off piecemeal. Or at least, donate those items it does not have and allow some of the other items to generate some income. The newspaper clippings and other items are the sorts of items that I wish I were better at compiling since they often fill in the gaps left by other research sources.

Just my opinion, of course.....

[theunions]

Originally posted by ensign14
I've got it but it's on my long reading list. From here. Looks pretty good from first glance, with 10-lap lapcharts and records of all the qualification attempts, and a Donald Davidson article. But twice as glossy and half the contents of the Hungness books.

So when did it actually come out, and what half of the Hungness content is missing? How does its coverage of other IRL races compare to Indy Review?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by theunions


So when did it actually come out, and what half of the Hungness content is missing? How does its coverage of other IRL races compare to Indy Review?

The random Hungness articles on people like Ralph Ligouri or Chickie Hirashima. Also the Missed the Show bit...but then again TG wrecked that.

Other races are dealt with in a couple of pages each, with full results and nice pics. As it is they probably have as much coverage of the other races as the IRL Review did.

However, it is much better designed and the writing seems to be of a much higher standard than the IRL Review.

[T54]

For me, the value of the Clymer and Hungeness books were the continuous history of the cars. You could follow a given chassis from year to year and establish an accurate picture of what a given car did and where it ended. And that's the detective work I like. The more recent books tell you nothing about where the cars came from and if where they raced prior to a given 500.
I am lucky to have purchased mine while hardly anyone cared (in the 1980's), but I am also missing the 1958 edition... However I own the original cover painting of the 1961 book, which I purchased framed and in mint condition for $50.00 at the 1992 Indy swap meet... It is now hanging in my office.

T54