26 replies to this topic

[D-Type]

I have been through several websites which show Chiron or Wagner competing in grands prix in 1926 or '27 but have not found a race in which they both competed.

Did they ever race against each other?

No particular reason for asking. It's just that if they did, they cover the first 50 years of GP racing between them.

[Vitesse2]

I think the answer is "almost"! Wagner was a Talbot driver in 1927 - Talbot withdrew mid-season, but not before having made entries for the San Sebastian and Spanish GPs, which were run on successive weekends over the same course, for FL and GP cars respectively. In the first race, Chiron came fourth in a Bugatti 35B and in the second he shared André Dubonnet's Bugatti 39A but retired. Wagner posted DNAs in both.

[Jimmy Piget]

2 july 1927, course de formule libre de l'ACF, Montlhéry :
2- Chiron (Bugatti)
DNF - Wagner (Sunbeam)

NB : Louis Chiron DNQ at Monaco 1958 (on Testut's 250F).
This race was also the first GP raced by Graham Hill.
Wagner + Chiron + Graham = up to 1975 !

[Vitesse2]

That will teach me not to watch the Goodwood Revival while using the index in Sheldon ....

[Roger Clark]

Jules Goux also raced against Chiron.

[Dennis David]

The thought of racing against a Wagner or Goux would tend to put things into perspective.

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by D-Type
It's just that if they did, they cover the first 50 years of GP racing between them.

William Court made the same point in Power and Glory, noting that Wagner had driven in Paris - Madrid. As Jimmy points out, Graham then carried the baton onward. If one then includes Riccardo Patrese (OK, I know there's a two year gap) the timespan between the early town-to-town races to the end of 1993 is (very nearly) covered by just four drivers.

[Jimmy Piget]

Wagner / Chiron / Graham.
Let's avoid the 2-year gap created by Patrese : Jacques Laffite 1974-1986, Gerhard Berger 1984-1997.
To close the 1895-2003 era, we just have to chose between Barrichello, Coulthard, Fisichella, Frentzen, Panis, R & M Schumacher, Trulli & Villeneuve.
Which one of these men will be the longest in Grands Prix ?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
To close the 1895-2003 era, we just have to chose between Barrichello, Coulthard, Fisichella, Frentzen, Panis, R & M Schumacher, Trulli & Villeneuve.
Which one of these men will be the longest in Grands Prix ?

A copy of Autosport dated September 15th 2023 just fell through the space/time continuum:

COULTHARD WINS ITALIAN GP AND FIRST WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP
"Now I can retire" says new champion

Sorry - couldn't resist!

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
Wagner / Chiron / Graham.
Let's avoid the 2-year gap created by Patrese : Jacques Laffite 1974-1986, Gerhard Berger 1984-1997.
To close the 1895-2003 era, we just have to chose between Barrichello, Coulthard, Fisichella, Frentzen, Panis, R & M Schumacher, Trulli & Villeneuve.
Which one of these men will be the longest in Grands Prix ?

I like

Wagner
Chiron
Hill
Jones (75-86)
Senna (84-93)
Schumacher (M) (91-?)

Champions all. But totally different characters.

If you feel that Chiron wasn't really practicing in 1958 but only playing then there is an alternative

Wagner
Chiron
Salvadori (52-62)
Surtees (60-72)
Lauda (71-85)
Senna (84-93)
Schumacher (M) (91-?)


There are loads of chains from Chiron onwards but none any shorter. But it is still an incredibly short one.

Now, if we could find a F2 race with patrese and Hill!

[Jimmy Piget]

Alan Jones did not race Grand Prix in 1982 nor 1984...

But I wonder if (must be checked) Chiron raced every year (not 1954 at least...)

[Rob G]

Originally posted by D-Type
If you feel that Chiron wasn't really practicing in 1958 but only playing then there is an alternative

Wagner
Chiron
Salvadori (52-62)
Surtees (60-72)
Lauda (71-85)
Senna (84-93)
Schumacher (M) (91-?)


There are loads of chains from Chiron onwards but none any shorter. But it is still an incredibly short one.

Substitute Moss in place of Salvadori and that's one heck of a chain.

[fines]

Originally posted by D-Type
There are loads of chains from Chiron onwards but none any shorter. But it is still an incredibly short one.

Really?

What about:

Wagner (1903-1927)
Chiron (1927-1958)
Foyt (1958-1994)
Villeneuve (1994-present)

Now I know, Chiron and Foyt did not race against each other, but Louis was at Indy in 1928 and Foyt at Monza thirty years later (you could add Fangio, Moss or Schell - they were all at Monza in 1958). And though both Foyt and Villeneuve raced at Indy in '94, it wasn't the same race, but still...

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Rob G

Substitute Moss in place of Salvadori and that's one heck of a chain.

Agreed

Originally posted by Fines

Really?

What about :

Wagner (1903-1927)
Chiron (1927-1958)
Foyt (1958-1994)
Villeneuve (1994-present)

Now I know, Chiron and Foyt did not race against each other, but Louis was at Indy in 1928 and Foyt at Monza thirty years later (you could add Fangio, Moss or Schell - they were all at Monza in 1958). And though both Foyt and Villeneuve raced at Indy in '94, it wasn't the same race, but still...

I would like to agree - but I think it is stretching the rules a bit too far.

But I still wish we could shorten the GP chain.

[Criceto]

Just a thought - if you look at "classic" races rather than just GPs (we have already had city to city races cited after all) may I mention Graham Hill's driving partner for the 1972 Le Mans 24 hours?

Henri Pescarolo.

Who only retired from contemporary competition in 1999 and has popped up at Coys Festivals and Goodwood Revivals every year since then.

So a tenuous connection in four from 1903 to 2003, and as an aside, the four men all raced on the various circuits of Le Mans spanning the years 1906 to 1999.



Alternatively, could anyone really say that they've noticed Sir Stirling Moss' retirement lately...?

[D-Type]

I think we can accept any "classic" race - GP's, Indianapolis, Le Mans, other championship sports car races, Daytona 500, etc. Say any race in which top rank drivers competed. I don't think we should include historic races as some drivers are nowadays merely touring or parading.

So AJ is in. But how to make connections? Trintignant raced against Chiron. Trintignant and AJ both raced in the 1958 Two Worlds race at Monza but they shared a car so couldn't have competed against each other.

Did Graham Hill compete at Le Mans in 1966? Or did his and AJ's paths cross at Indy?

Did AJ and Villeneuve ccompete against each other at Indy before Villeneuve crossed the pond?

If so we could have

Wagner
Chiron
Hill
AJ
Villeneuve

I'm still unsure about Monaco 1958. Was Chiron competing, or was he merely demonstarting?

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by D-Type
I'm still unsure about Monaco 1958. Was Chiron competing, or was he merely demonstarting?

Sheldon lists him as the alternative driver for Testut's 250F. If he had been quick enough to qualify, I feel sure he would have raced.

Graham Hill and Foyt raced against each other at Indy in 1966/67/68, but not at Le Mans (Foyt didn't quite make it in 1966).

However, as Fines has pointed out, Foyt and Villeneuve never competed in the same race. Solution: substitute Mario for Foyt.

[D-Type]

Many thanks folks.

So we have

Louis Wagner
Louis Chiron
Graham Hill
Mario Andretti
Jacques Villeneuve

Then to now in five drivers!

[aditya-now]

I like

Wagner
Chiron
Hill
Jones (75-86)
Senna (84-93)
Schumacher (M) (91-?)

Champions all. But totally different characters.

If you feel that Chiron wasn't really practicing in 1958 but only playing then there is an alternative

Wagner
Chiron
Salvadori (52-62)
Surtees (60-72)
Lauda (71-85)
Senna (84-93)
Schumacher (M) (91-?)


There are loads of chains from Chiron onwards but none any shorter. But it is still an incredibly short one.

Now, if we could find a F2 race with patrese and Hill!

Wow, I love your lists! Was searching for something like this for a long time!
I am amazed about the historical insights you guys have - motorsport even across more than a century seems a tightly knit family!

[aditya-now]

Many thanks folks.

So we have

Louis Wagner
Louis Chiron
Graham Hill
Mario Andretti
Jacques Villeneuve

Then to now in five drivers!

So to update the chain all the way from 1903 to 2010 (and maybe till 2020!) we have

Louis Wagner (1903 - 1927)
Louis Chiron (1927 - 1958)
Graham Hill (1958 - 1968)
Mario Andretti (1968 - 1994)
Jacques Villeneuve (1994 - 2006)
Nico Rosberg (2006 - .....)

Nico might become champion still, and might go on longer than any others who have raced Jacques directly, at least in F1! However, to put Nico into such a worthy lineage of drivers seems a bit premature... So is there anyone else coming to mind who raced Jacques, is still young and is champion in a major motorsporting event?

[Zeroninety]

So to update the chain all the way from 1903 to 2010 (and maybe till 2020!) we have

Louis Wagner (1903 - 1927)
Louis Chiron (1927 - 1958)
Graham Hill (1958 - 1968)
Mario Andretti (1968 - 1994)
Jacques Villeneuve (1994 - 2006)
Nico Rosberg (2006 - .....)

Nico might become champion still, and might go on longer than any others who have raced Jacques directly, at least in F1! However, to put Nico into such a worthy lineage of drivers seems a bit premature... So is there anyone else coming to mind who raced Jacques, is still young and is champion in a major motorsporting event?

Kyle Busch is 24, has raced Jacques, and will surely win a Daytona 500 or Sprint Cup title at some point. Joey Logano's even younger, and has raced Jacques in the Nationwide Series. His future success isn't as certain as Busch's yet, but it's entirely possible that either one may still be racing in 2040. One could probably pick other, similar drivers who would fit.

[Michael Ferner]

US dirt track racing:

Ralph de Palma 1908-33
Tommy Hinnershitz 1928-60
A. J. Foyt 1956-82
Steve Kinser 1976-today

All of them champions, and with room to spare...

You could also try:

Barney Oldfield 1902-17
Don Moore ca. 1917-49
Ralph Liguori ca. 1949-2001

[David McKinney]

Well, since we're going off F1, how about these New Zealanders:
George Smith 1921-58
Ken Smith (no relation) 1958-date

[Michael Ferner]

And if we leave racing for a while, how about Vlad Tzepes, "Count Dracul" 1435-today

Sorry, couldn't resist!

[D-Type]

And if we leave racing for a while, how about Vlad Tzepes, "Count Dracul" 1435-today

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Oi! Behave yourself on my thread.

Happy new year Michael.

Edited by D-Type, 11 January 2010 - 15:14.

[aditya-now]

Kyle Busch is 24, has raced Jacques, and will surely win a Daytona 500 or Sprint Cup title at some point. Joey Logano's even younger, and has raced Jacques in the Nationwide Series. His future success isn't as certain as Busch's yet, but it's entirely possible that either one may still be racing in 2040. One could probably pick other, similar drivers who would fit.

The longvity of the those American racers is simply amazing. However, I was initially interested in a "generations list" of F1 - as it is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport - drivers don´t last there till they are in their fifties...

So still any list like

Louis Wagner (1903 - 1927)
Louis Chiron (1927 - 1958)
Graham Hill (1958 - 1968)
Mario Andretti (1968 - 1994)
Jacques Villeneuve (1994 - 2006)
Nico Rosberg (2006 - .....)

or

Wagner
Chiron
Hill
Jones (75-86)
Senna (84-93)
Schumacher (M) (91-?)

has their special merit, even though Jonesey and the Schu had breaks in between....

Edited by aditya-now, 11 January 2010 - 23:36.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Michael Ferner
US dirt track racing:

Ralph de Palma 1908-33
Tommy Hinnershitz 1928-60
A. J. Foyt 1956-82
Steve Kinser 1976-today

All of them champions, and with room to spare...

You could also try:

Barney Oldfield 1902-17
Don Moore ca. 1917-49
Ralph Liguori ca. 1949-2001

Simply incredible...

I wonder if Buford could come up with some others?