70 replies to this topic

[jonpollak]

Gluing down the desert

A gleaming $150 million circuit has emerged like an oasis south of the capital Manama, with even the surrounding sand coated in glue to prevent it blowing on to the track. Advertising billboards are everywhere

Is this some cack handed military manoeuvre to freeze the angry hoards who would proliferate "terror"?
Or a Bakersville attempt at keeping the TV lens clear.

Honestly....
As Groucho would say...that's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard

Jp

[CONOSUR]

I thought it humorous as well. Unless they glue it down all over the entire island, they won't stand a chance of keeping it off the circuit, because sand from elsewhere will just blow and land on top of the glued-down sand, then blow onto the circuit.

Oh, well...

The interesting thing will be guessing how many engines blow up. Everyone, and I mean everyone, will be susceptible to engine failure regardless of the usual factors.

[BRG]

In Tony Jardine's report from Bahrain aired on Saturday's ITV Speed Sunday programme (and what a load of tat that is proving!) he was kneeling down at the edgeof the track to show us the sand (which sortof indicates the level of intellectual calibre of the show, but that's another story). It was very evidently not glued down, although that may have been some daysago - but it included some footage of the Williams demonstration which probably fixes when it was shot. Either Bahrain has become the world's largest glue consumer in the last few days....or this story is all BS.

And even if the sand where consolidated in some way, as soon as Massa runs off track (which will be about 30 seconds into the first session, it will be dislodged and cutup and that will be that. I think we shall simply have to expect sand on the track, and that's that. After all, it was always a feature of Zandvoort and no-one was much bothered.

[madmac]

I'm looking forward to seeingF1 cars with Paris-Dakar tyres fitted ;)

[TheGoalie]

It will be interesting too see how they get the air filters to fit under the bodywork!

[milliepuppy]

isn't April 1st on Thursday ?

[Wolbo]

Which idiot put that sand there in the first place?

[Vilenova]

Originally posted by Wolbo
Which idiot put that sand there in the first place?

His name is God.
I doubt he appreciates your post.

[Vilenova]

Originally posted by BRG
In Tony Jardine's report from Bahrain aired on Saturday's ITV Speed Sunday programme (and what a load of tat that is proving!) he was kneeling down at the edgeof the track to show us the sand (which sortof indicates the level of intellectual calibre of the show, but that's another story). It was very evidently not glued down, although that may have been some daysago - but it included some footage of the Williams demonstration which probably fixes when it was shot. Either Bahrain has become the world's largest glue consumer in the last few days....or this story is all BS.

And even if the sand where consolidated in some way, as soon as Massa runs off track (which will be about 30 seconds into the first session, it will be dislodged and cutup and that will be that. I think we shall simply have to expect sand on the track, and that's that. After all, it was always a feature of Zandvoort and no-one was much bothered.

Couple thingss I want to add.
1) There are probably not many horses over there now.
2) Maybe Massa will be stuck in the glue and Fisi will finally beat him.;)

[Buford]

I need some of that glue for my back yard.

[dosco]

Originally posted by jonpollak
Gluing down the desert


Is this some cack handed military manoeuvre to freeze the angry hoards who would proliferate "terror"?
Or a Bakersville attempt at keeping the TV lens clear.

Honestly....
As Groucho would say...that's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard

Jp

Uuuhhh....have you ever seen the sand in that part of the world? It's not your average 'beach sand' that you find at ocean beaches around the world. It's like ultra-fine powdered sugar.....and it gets into everything. It may even prove to be a deciding factor in the race (if the engines ingest the crap, it will undoubtedly cause problems).

It's a valid concern, and not silly at all....the sand wreaked havoc on US military vehicles (esp jet aircraft/turbine powered vehicles) when deployed to Iraq. The choppers, tanks, and jets had major problems with glass forming on the turbine blades.

[Buford]

It is the same in the Black Rock Desert of Nevada where the Brits set the land speed record a few years ago. Same place they hold the annual Burning Man Festival. It can be totally clear and in seconds the wind blows up and you get a total "whiteout" condition where you can not see your hand at the length of your arm. I wonder what they did about sand control for the LSR attempt? Probably wasn't as big a proplen because they did not have any other cars out there and didn't run when it was windy.

[baddog]

glueing may be a deceptive term. It would seem more likely that the program would be to spray some kind of stabilising compound over the sand in the general area of the track a day or so before (possibly even refreshed overnight)

Shaun

[dosco]

Originally posted by Buford
It is the same in the Black Rock Desert of Nevada where the Brits set the land speed record a few years ago. Same place they hold the annual Burning Man Festival. It can be totally clear and in seconds the wind blows up and you get a total "whiteout" condition where you can not see your hand at the length of your arm. I wonder what they did about sand control for the LSR attempt? Probably wasn't as big a proplen because they did not have any other cars out there and didn't run when it was windy.

I don't think those guys did squat.

I was peripherally involved with Breedlove's effort (I was stationed at Travis AFB, one of my 'life support' maintenance guys installed the oxygen breathing system in the vehicle).

Breedlove's crew chief told me they 'FODded' out several engines (FOD referring to Foreiegn Object Damage, FODding out means the engine was trashed due to ingestion of foriegn debris)....when Craig ramped up the throttle, the resultant 'suction' from the engine air intake sucked all kind of crap into the engine.....to make matters worse, Breedlove's team chose to run the engine on Shell gasoline rather than Jet-A or JP-5, so the combustor and hot section ran at a much higher temp than normal.....the end result was damaged engines.

OTOH, they told me they had some kind of special deal where they were getting refurbed F-4 engines (I'm not sure which engine model they were using) on the cheap.....so perhaps they could afford to nuke an engine or two (me being the engineer that I am, think that damaging any component is a bad idea.....whatever).

Also interesting.....have you seen the in-vehicle footage of the Thrust SSC? When Andy Green was hammering along the desert floor, the amount of dust that 'seeped' into the cockpit was incredible! That stuff goes everywhere. (FWIW, I drove my car onto the Yuma proving ground in Quartzite....similar dusty type sand - that crap seeped into my car through the door handle!).

[Pilla]

What are the environmental affects of the glue? Hopefully its biodegradable.

[Buford]

No I haven't seen Green's in car but I can imagine. That white sand is very small and it takes weeks to get it out of my van after Burning Man.

[J2NH]

By "glue" I am sure that they mean that the surface of the sand has been treated with a chemical solution that will cause the sand to "clump". The most common solution for this is Magnesium Chloride. It is used extensively in the states at mines and construction sites to contain fugitive dust emissions. Having said that and having experience in using it, it does not perform miracles. 10 to 25% decrease in emissions is about the best I have ever seen. Depends of course on the nature of the sand. If it is as fine as some have indicated it will not work as well as if the sand were more coarse. Engines, radiators, this could be a mess. This could have been a race they suspended the "one engine" rule.

[masterhit]

Gluing down the desert sounds like the sort of thing from the late, lamented, Sir Peter Ustinov's classic 'Grand Prix Of Gibraltar' parody ...

As John McEnroe would say "you can not be serious!"

edit: oh, just read JP's post again, these closing lines are too similar

You do sometimes wonder what colour the sky is on the planet that the organisers inhabit..

[MuMu]

Who makes the best sand tyres - Michelin or BS?

[orange]

Did the track constructor's save $$$ since they didn't need to design/build any gravel pit ?
[They just put the tarmac over a huge gravel pit ]

[orange]

Seriously though the F1 tires are really hot when they are running.
Isn't it possible that a gush of wind can blow sand over the tarmac and an unlucky driver can get caught with his tyre soaking up all that sand.(Something similar to marbles I guess). ?

How much more damage can it cause ?

Bahrain is the best chance for Michlien to pull one over Ferrari and I hope its BMW-JPM who does that.
We can see the WDC getting really close after Bahrain (or maybe not )

[goGoGene]

I Saudi-land the golf courses are all sand, you drag around a bit of astroturf to hit the ball from. But for the greens they oil the sand, I've heard that it works pretty well. I have a feeling that they are spraying oil on the sand to keep it down. They have a bit of oil to spare in that part of the world.

[Zmeej]

So, does that mean that all of the participants and audience are gonna be on a three-day solvent high?

Or, if J2NH is right, is it the same stuff used in kitty litter?
If so, just wanna say that those chemicals are vile.

[fester82]

By "glue" I am sure that they mean that the surface of the sand has been treated with a chemical solution that will cause the sand to "clump". The most common solution for this is Magnesium Chloride.

I know the Pikes Peak hillclimb treats the road with a similar compond on a regular basis, that is until they ruin it and pave it all the way to the top.

[prettyface]

Originally posted by MuMu
Who makes the best sand tyres - Michelin or BS?

That could be a complete new business. Dry tires, wets, intermediates, sands, wet sands, intermediate sands

[Pete Aaron]

Well, not to sound like an old fart, but for years we've used plain old corn syrup to keep down dust and add traction to dusty old asphalt drag strips. It started at Famoso Raceway (Bakersfield) out in the dusty central valley of California. Works great and it's cheap.
Just make sure not to wear your race boots in the house after a day at the track or the carpet will stick to 'em. F's up the transporter floors pretty bad as well, but I'd rather have traction and little dust as a trade off.
Doesn't hurt the environment one bit either.

[jonpollak]

Originally posted by dosco
Uuuhhh....have you ever seen the sand in that part of the world?

I think so ....1990 it was
Shirley Bassey world tour
But that's not important now....

for years we've used plain old corn syrup

glue and corn syrup...

it's a sticky situation
Keepin me up late at night.

Bonnie Raitt..1989
Jp

[quintin cloud]

The guys might look at using Dekar rally tyre's for the cars

[RTH]

Maybe its just a silly place to hold a Motor Race - Whose idea was it anyway ?

[Garagiste]

Well it'll be interesting to see if it works - if it does maybe the entity formerly known as Railtrack can borrow the engineers and their tube of glue? Save a load of grief come autumn if they can glue the leaves onto the trees for us.

[BRG]

Originally posted by RTH
Whose idea was it anyway ?

Bernard C. Ecclestone? Or maybe his accountant...

[maxie]

Originally posted by BRG
Bernard C. Ecclestone? Or maybe his accountant...

It's set up to allow the slow-moving but engine-saving Minardis to get a win after everyone has blown his engine.

[MuMu]

Originally posted by RTH
Maybe its just a silly place to hold a Motor Race - Whose idea was it anyway ?

This is a World Championship after all. We should have everything from deserts to polar caps.

[TheGoalie]

Looking at the photos of the track I guess they didn't have time to get the irrigation system installed and plant grass and plants to stop the sand form getting to the track. I am still voting for BIG air filters attatched to the top of the cars, or perhaps they could replace the front wings with a brushing men=chanism to clear the track as they go:)

[JacnGille]

With all that oil $$$$$$$ why didn't they just put a roof over the place?

[CONOSUR]

That would've actually cost money.

[jonpollak]

they could replace the front wings with a brushing men=chanism to clear the track

ya mean kinda like a Zamboni ?...

....if it does maybe the entity formerly known as Railtrack can borrow the engineers and their tube of glue?
Save a load of grief come autumn if they can glue the leaves onto the trees for us.

Well done Garagiste....That has to be, by far, the best idea yet on this sad ass thread.


What really kills me is....
whomever thought up this gem never considered the WIND whisking in sand from...Beyond The Glue.
reminding jaded ol' Jp of a certain countries foreign policy....

Jp

[SlateGray]

Originally posted by RTH
Maybe its just a silly place to hold a Motor Race - Whose idea was it anyway ?

When the cig ban goes world wide BE will be holding F1 races on the moon or on floating tracks in international waters just to keep the smoke $$$ rolling in!

[Zmeej]

jonp

whomever thought up this gem never considered the WIND whisking in
sand from...Beyond The Glue.

Great name for a band.

[Yelnats]

The sand could be controlled by using the mixture sprayed of steep slopes adjacent to newly constructed highways to prevent erosion before the grass seed sprouts. I forget what it was made from but it was called an 'emulsion' and since it can hold a steep sandy slope (2:1) in a heavy thunderstorm, a little wind shouldn't be a problem.

A major sandstorm is another thing! But then.... remember Brazil?

[jonpollak]

It now appears that both tire companies have issued SAND tires to all their teams to use on Friday morning.



Jp

[Pete Aaron]

Robby Gordon heard it was a sand race, he'll be there

[masterhit]

The last two pictures posted by JP and Pete Aaron are class!

The money has to be on Indiana Jones or Laurence of Arabia this weekend.

[Pete Aaron]

OT/
These are big files but here's two more of Robby getting major air at the Glamis sand dunes. What's interesting about them is they are good views of the suspension on this toy. Note the off set drive shaft to the rears for additional travel on the swing arm suspension, and allows for a much beefier axle carrier.
Also note the front suspension, which has center pivots for the A arms.
I saw him work this bad boy out there once and he was flying higher than the telephone poles next to the road.

Glamis is incredible, I've seen everything from twin turbo Northstar aluminum V-8's to Porsche 3.5 turbos in 400 lb. monocoque single seaters.
wanna play with the big dogs in SoCal, gotta have a sand toy
It seems

Air 1
Air 2

[brett_sequeira]

if you smell glue dont you get high.
Yup i can see it happening marshalls getting high

[flyingfin]

Originally posted by JacnGille
With all that oil $$$$$$$ why didn't they just put a roof over the place?

yeah,and maybe a some sprinklers for the rain effect and who knows...some snow machines ;)

[Ralliart]

Had the powers that be held a race beforehand, as used to be the case, this and other problems could've been sorted out. In fact, I wonder when the last time a new GP circuit had a race, other than a GP, held prior to the big show. Long Beach with its F5000 race in '75?

[jonpollak]

Good question Ralliart....
I seem to remember a Trans Am race at Phoenix in 89 but I think F1 cars WERE the first cars on the track.

now....
Some more Glue Induced thinking.

How long till we hear the higher ups say...
let them eat cake

PS...I wonder, what ARE they using to bind the confection?

Jp

[nigel red5]

lol JP....

I`m glad someone is reading them at least! That gulf daily news has done a bloody good job so far....

Anyway, back to the glue..... A lot of you may not have seen round the circuit yet. The start-finish area won`t be much of a problem with sand n dust, or put it this way, it`ll look less like a sandpit than the rest of it!

Once you get out of turn 2, and all the way up until the final corner, there is little in the way of buildings or whatever to act as a windbreak, and the sand in many areas is as little as 4 yards away from the surface of the track.

Today (Wednesday) i`ve already seen 4 fire engines hosing down the track surface. I suspect this`ll happen again tomorrow as well. They are making all the efforts they can to keep this thing dust-free, but will it be enough?

By the way the colour of the track surface looks awesome.... really, really dark, and turns 1 & 2 are tighter and narrower than you think on the maps.... There`s gonna be trouble there for sure.

[Cindy]

This is a funny Jim Bamber cartoon regarding Saudi GP, nice Safety Car ...

Jim Bamber Cartoon