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Wilfredo Ricart


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#1 angst

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 07:20

I decided, before I asked any questions regarding Wilfredo Ricart, to search the forums for any previous threads. Some interesting facts and opinions came to light which got me thinking. So my original question has been amended, or rather a caveat has been added to the question.
Having read some of Enzo Ferrari's words I got the impression that Marinoni had been killed testing the Alfa 512, the inference being that the car was dangerous as well as, in Ferrari's estimation, worthless as a racing car. Turns out, probably not a revelation to the majority here, that a) he was driving an Alfa 158 with 512 suspension components and b) he crashed head on into a truck whose driver had allegedly dozed off. Wouldn't really have mattered what car he was driving.

It seems Neubaur wasn't the only fantasist when recounting the old days.

I understand that Ferrari didn't like Ricart on a personal level. I can think of individuals who didn't like Ferrari on that level either, so I'm not sure that any relevance should be taken from this fact. It does appear, though, that these opinions of him could be clouding the general reputation of Ricart; that and a general revisionism that seems to be used against Ricart more than other designers/engineers of the time.

His Alfa 512 was spindly in design and the driver did seem too far forward (the early Auto-Unions seemed to suffer the same problems, and also had a terrible rear suspension design), but the engine seems to have been a gem (so much so that Alfa based a 2.5 litre design around it?). The same applies with the 162 motor which looked like it could have given the German cars a run for their money. The war may well have precluded Ricarts best work. The fact is little was known, compared to today, of chassis/suspension design (otherwise they would probably all have had their engines mid mounted with independent suspension all round) and all the engineers of the time seem to have made, on occasion, a pigs ear of it. Look at Porsche's Mercedes 218 of 1924, or his original Auto-Union. Or Jano's (et al) Lancia D-50.

So, what was wrong with Ricart that wasn't wrong with other designers/engineers of the time?

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#2 karlcars

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 08:07

The short answer is that although Ricart's designs were imaginative and exotic, they were too elaborate and complex to be successfully developed and raced. They showed a stark lack of awareness of the real challenges faced by teams on a day-to-day basis in the field. Enzo Ferrari was all too aware of this and therefrom, I believe, came his contempt for Ricart's work. For the same reason he had no fear of Ricart's Pegasos, in spite of their potential on paper.

It's hard to see the Lancia D50 as a pig's ear of a design when, with minor changes by Ferrari, it won the 1956 world championship under Fangio.

#3 angst

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 08:57

Thanks for the quick (and incisive) answer. What I would say, though, is that quite a number of engineers/designers also made cars that were maybe too complex or ambitious, seemingly lacking an understanding of the day by day challenges facing a racing team - yet these are viewed as classics. Some of these were developed further and did become competitive, such as the Lancia...



Originally posted by karlcars

It's hard to see the Lancia D50 as a pig's ear of a design when, with minor changes by Ferrari, it won the 1956 world championship under Fangio.


Pig's ear is maybe a bit strong. I am actually a fan of Jano's work and very much like the D-50, but that shouldn't detract from the fact that it made it's debut late because of the problems encountered early on with the car and that when it did compete it had AFAIK handling defincies. The development of the car virtually bankrupted Lancia. I wouldn't say that the changes made to the car were minor at all. It always seemed to me that a number of original concepts of the car were fundamentally changed to make it into a championship winning car, and by the time of the Ferrari 801 it was hardly the same car.

The Cisitalia is another car that was way too complex to be developed by anything other than a pre-war Daimler-Benz/Auto-Union funded team.

The original Auto-Union handled terribly, their 1936 success was down to Bernd Rosemeyer's driving skill and Mercedes' problems that year, than to the car itself. Eberan von Eberhorst developed the D-type around the concept of the A-C types and made the thing work, but still Porsche's design is seen as a classic.

It's possible that, had the war not intervened, the Alfa Romeo 162 could have given the German teams a bloody nose. The less powerful 316 was already showing promise against them. Isn't it possible that if someone at Alfa had developed the initial concept of the 512 - strengthening the chassis, relocating the driver and fuel tanks - that the car could have shown the way, post-war, that Auto-Union were just beginning to do pre-war?

I don't know enough about Pegaso's racing history I'm afraid :blush: to be able to make any comment on that, but how much money did they have to play with?

I just get the impression that his work is judged more harshly than his contemporaries.

#4 angst

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 11:00

Another factor that perhaps needs to be taken into account is what were his aims? While at Alfa Romeo he was trying to take on the might of the German teams. The only way to do that was to push the boundaries. When designing the 162 he knew that it had to compete with the W154 and D-Type Auto-Union, so there was no point pussy-footing around - it had to be technologically superior to what they were racing up to that point.

He designed the 512 after the 158s were humiliated at Tripoli in '39 by the W165. Again, he probably felt that Mercedes had upped the ante and he needed to have a car that was technologically superior to what the German teams had. (It would have been interesting to see a rematch of the 158/W165 in 1940, both cars had been improved, but I think Alfa may have given a better account of themselves. We'll never know though). He was unlucky in that both projects were halted very early in their development.

#5 Carlo

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 13:34

Hello Angst,

some of the answeres you are looking for can be found in the interview of Consalvo Sanesi by Doug Nye in 1986.

Sanesi was test-driver number two under "capo-collaudator" Attila Marioni.

Doug: "...Sanesi then exploded the Alfa myth that the unfortunate Marioni...had died while testing Ricart's mid-engined Alfa 512."

Sanesi: "No, it was a 158, actually an updated 158 which we called the 158b with the semi-de Dion torsion-bar rear suspension of the 512 instead of or the original swing axels.
He (Marioni) was testing it on the Como-Milano autostrada which then was a simple two-lane main road, and he crashed at the Bivio Castellanza junction.
He was running towards Milano, he reached a bridge very fast, couldn't see what was the other side of the bridge and there was a large truck coming in the middle of the road and he hit it absolutely head-on."

About Ricart, Sanesi also couldn't find very positive words.
Sanesi says that Ricart was experienced in little cars, buses and two-strokes.

About Ricart's projects during his time at Alfa Romeo, Sanesi says: "Ricart was lunaco, I tell you..."


Ciao Carlo :smoking:

#6 angst

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 13:50

Thanks Carlo. Again somebody very dismissive of Ricart. Maybe there is something in it but....

I'll tell you what it is. I feel there is not only a dismissal of his work, but also an antipathy toward him. I couldn't put my finger on why that is, but I get the distinct impression that it is there. Did he have questionable political views/links?

#7 Doug Nye

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 14:10

Sanesi didn't rate Ricart at all - Guidotti told me that Ricart was a fraud but worse he was a foreigner, an outsider, a board appointee, an incomer...he simply did not belong amongst that close-knit Italian racing fraternity which had experienced and endured so much as a band of brothers.

Mr Ferrari famously told a story about Ricart effecting thick rubber-soled shoes which The Old Man - of course - challenged him on. "A great engineer's brain must be protected from shocks" responded Ricart, according to The Old Man, who was, when he chose to be, notably humourless and may well have taken an Hispanically cheerfully jocular throw-away remark as gospel.

On the other hand, of course, famously poisonous Mr Ferrari might simply have made up the entire story.

But occasionally there is no problem with not spoiling a good story with facts - just as long as the good story makes an accurate and significant point...

DCN

#8 angst

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 14:28

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Sanesi didn't rate Ricart at all - Guidotti told me that Ricart was a fraud but worse he was a foreigner, an outsider, a board appointee, an incomer...he simply did not belong amongst that close-knit Italian racing fraternity which had experienced and endured so much as a band of brothers.



Is that maybe where the problem begins for Ricart? As I was trying to say in the original post, other designers/engineers have produced flawed designs - but they, in alot of cases, are often still viewed as classics/potential classics. In the case of Ricart, his work is seemingly dismissed by most historians out of hand, and I wondered whether these views could be clouded by an antipathy toward the man by those that worked with him. Or, as may very well be the case, am I missing something?

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Mr Ferrari famously told a story about Ricart effecting thick rubber-soled shoes which The Old Man - of course - challenged him on. "A great engineer's brain must be protected from shocks" responded Ricart, according to The Old Man, who was, when he chose to be, notably humourless and may well have taken an Hispanically cheerfully jocular throw-away remark as gospel.

On the other hand, of course, famously poisonous Mr Ferrari might simply have made up the entire story.



He quite deliberately, in my opinion, persuaded through half truths and misinformation the belief that Marinoni was killed due to the design of the Alfa 512, so neither of these possibilities should be discounted.

Originally posted by Doug Nye
But occasionally there is no problem with not spoiling a good story with facts - just as long as the good story makes an accurate and significant point...

DCN


Absolutely ;)

#9 Carlo

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 19:50

I couldn't put my finger on why that is, but I get the distinct impression that it is there. Did he have questionable political views/links?



The relation between Sanesi and Ricart was nor easy because Sanesi had to drive what Ricart designed...

So if the car wasn't fast enough, Ricart blamed Sanesi being too slow.
Not an indication of good team-work.

And of course Ricart was the "Hispaniolo" all the time, as Doug pointed out already.

Mr Ferrari famously told a story about Ricart effecting thick rubber-soled shoes which The Old Man - of course - challenged him on. "A great engineer's brain must be protected from shocks" responded Ricart, according to The Old Man, who was, when he chose to be, notably humourless and may well have taken an Hispanically cheerfully jocular throw-away remark as gospel.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Ciao Carlo :smoking:

#10 T54

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 20:19

Possibly the best answer to the controversy in the future after all parties have died from old age will be driving a Z102 and a 166MM at speed and compare.
Having had this privilege a few years back, I'll take the safe and sound 166 over the bizarre and quirky and scary Z102 anytime.
But I sure like those streamlined Pegaso buses... they looked so cool.

T54

#11 dretceterini

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 23:04

The death of Marioni had nothing to do with the car at all....he simply took a chance driving fast on a public road, and didn't see the truck. As to Ricart, everyone I ever talked to about him at Alfa, including Fusi, though he was a bit nuts..

#12 Roger Clark

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 07:14

In "The Alfa Romeo Tradition", Griffith Borgeson paints a more positive picture of Ricart than most that have emerged. (Incidetally, his forename was Wifredo, not Wilfredo as often quoted).

In 1937, Alfa romeo bought 80% of Scuderia Ferrari, closed it down, and moved all racing activity back to Milan. This must have come as a severe blow to Enzo and his team wo must have seen Ricart as the embodiment of the change. One hesitates to call the Scuderia garagistes, but I think hte description fits. In his autobiography, alongside the shock absorbing shoes story, Ferrari describes the 512 as a 158 with a flat-12 engine at the rear. I think he might have described the Lotus 25 as a Dino 246, except for...

As well as the racing cars, Ricart was responsible for all Alfa's technical activity, including military trucks and aircraft engines. To criticise him for the failure of the 512 and the 162 seems unresonable, particularly in view of the circumstances of the time. Ricart and his family had fled Spain, "under ghastly conditions" (Borgeson) in 1936. In 1945, he left Italy in similar circumstances. According to Borgeson, 195 of his collaborators at Alfa Romeo signed a parting tribute to him.

#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 10:18

Originally posted by Roger Clark
In "The Alfa Romeo Tradition", Griffith Borgeson paints a more positive picture of Ricart than most that have emerged. (Incidetally, his forename was Wifredo, not Wilfredo as often quoted).

In 1937, Alfa romeo bought 80% of Scuderia Ferrari, closed it down, and moved all racing activity back to Milan. This must have come as a severe blow to Enzo and his team wo must have seen Ricart as the embodiment of the change. One hesitates to call the Scuderia garagistes, but I think hte description fits. In his autobiography, alongside the shock absorbing shoes story, Ferrari describes the 512 as a 158 with a flat-12 engine at the rear. I think he might have described the Lotus 25 as a Dino 246, except for...


Yes, Enzo's dislike of Ricart comes over very strongly, even in what I suspect is a far from perfect translation: "... sleek, oiled hair and smart clothes .... a somewhat levantine elegance .... when he shook hands, it was like grasping the cold, lifeless hand of a corpse ...."

Originally posted by Roger Clark
As well as the racing cars, Ricart was responsible for all Alfa's technical activity, including military trucks and aircraft engines. To criticise him for the failure of the 512 and the 162 seems unresonable, particularly in view of the circumstances of the time. Ricart and his family had fled Spain, "under ghastly conditions" (Borgeson) in 1936. In 1945, he left Italy in similar circumstances. According to Borgeson, 195 of his collaborators at Alfa Romeo signed a parting tribute to him.


And of course when he took over, Alfa had no fewer than three different GP cars under development for the new 1938 formula - the 308, 312 and 316. It's no wonder Ricart couldn't get any of them to work!

As to the 512 and 162 - it could be argued that they were not failures, since neither ever raced ...

#14 angst

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 11:04

Thanks Roger and Vitesse.

I think that maybe it is time for a
re-appraisal of Ricart's work.

Given the antipathy toward the man, e
ngendered in part no doubt, by the fact he was appointed by Alfa Romeo and came with all the other changes forced upon the Scuderia. Given the chaos of the team that he stepped into - 3 designs ongoing for the new formula, Jano sacked for the failures of the previous car, Nuvolari leaving because of structural failings in the car (Jano's fault or not - that's a whole different topic). Given that his designs were curtailed before they had the chance to be developed, let alone raced (good point Vitesse :up: ). Given the prevailing circumstances and the technological superiority of the opposition. Given all that I believe his work has been dismissed too easily.

The Alfa 512, it is true, had obvious flaws. But didn't also the Auto-Union in original form? The power outputs of the F12 and the V16 both point toward the fact that he was doing something right.

#15 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 11:26

Most of what is available about Ricart seems to concentrate on his post-war career at Pegaso (which Enzo was very dismissive of as well) : there was a big exhibition of Pegaso cars a little while ago, for example ....

http://translate.goo...e...3D&ie=UTF-8

The author of this page doesn't seem too critical of the 162 and 512 ....

http://translate.goo...e...3D&ie=UTF-8

There's a biography in Spanish too:

Ricart. Pegaso La pasión del automóvil
Author: Carlo Mosquera e Enrique Coma-Cros
Published by: Arcris Ediciones, Barcelona
Year: 1988

#16 Yorgos

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 08:38

...and another biography in French

Wifredo -P. Ricart & la Pegaso
Don quichotte de la Calalogne et sa Rossinante
par François-P. Jeanson. Edition Fjac. 2001. 210x295.
Couv. souple. 547 pages

Cheers
Yorgos

#17 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 12:44

I feel the need to add some background information, that can, possibly, help to put straighter some myths about Ricart.

My sources are, of course the books and articles already quoted (book on Ricart, Sanesi's interview, Borgeson, etc.), but also more specialised researchs on work organization in the thirties and so on. We thus have mostly the same sources, but the point is to figure out what they actually mean.

So, from the end of 1933, most important move, Alfa Romeo hired Ugo Gobbato as chief manager. Gobbato was a very experienced, famous industial organizer: his last effort, costing him several months off due to exhaustion, was to install in USSR a ball bearing factory on behalf of Fiat.

Gobbato was entrusted to turn the small shop that used to build refined and exotic cars into an industrial complex mostly oriented toward military production: aero engines, lorries and busses, and a 5% of overall activity dedicated to cars, mostly for image purpose. This under direct control of the fascist organisation through the state property.

When Spain got into civil war, Ricart who was no politician, but certainly a fascist supporter, had to leave Barcelona in a hurry because Barcelona was in the Republican zone, with a significant presence of anarchists. Ricart had to flee away, and was hired by Alfa, seemingly under recommendation either for friendship or for political reasons. It seems that Gobbato's and Ricart's wife were very close to each other, and that had some consequences on Alfa... but taht may have started later. Now Ricart earned the "political" reputation of being a strong support to Franco's regime, with the half true information of having been Barcellona's "vice-alcade", i.e. vice-mayor. I say half-true because he was designated as such while residing in Italy, without being asked, and resigned from the charge at his first contact with Spanish authorities. So he could later dismiss the accusation, but he still was of far-right political opinions.

Ricart's first task was to develop an, err..., odd engine :eek: An aero V6, but diesel two-stroke! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: That was 1936: Spanish civil war not yet clear about who would win, and Jano still in charge, albeit the reponsability over aero and industrial vehicles was retired from him.

The reason for firing Jano was that Gobbato, as an organizer, had the clear idea that the old-fashioned experience-based work as brillantly carried over by Jano, was no more suitable for fast progress in technology. Jano was said to often go through his drawing men tables saying 'look, that has already been tried, and it won't work'.

Gobbato saw Ricart as the right man to turn Alfa Romeo methods into a modern, scientific approach, that was needed to catch the German opposition., as far as racing is concerned. Ricart actually didn't work on the 308, 312 and 316 projects. He was entrusted to develop the next generation of racers: 162, 512 and 163, while the adaptation work on the old projects was left to "lesser" people, including Bruno Trevisan. To do so, he also relied on foreign contacts, especially Ricardo in England, who was consulted on many points of the 162 and 512 engine projects: 4-valves layout, overall combustion chamber shape and other structural issues. Also that behavior, to go and ask for advice by the enemy (England was the first foe in the fascist propaganda then, for having led the SDN sanctions after Italy's attack in Ethiopia) was not at all in the Alfa tradition. So Ricart took the time to study the state-of-the-art in racing techniology and was humble enough to take advice outside. Result: the cars he had to design took several years before hitting a road, coming eventually too late, when the war was already on, but also didn't work properly. Because, at the opposite of his modern ideas on technological progress, he had no experience in real racing, and didn't manage to get cooperation from those, inside Alfa, who had some. So Ricart's basic designs were up-to-date, but actual realization couldn't work. Giuseppe Busso, who was already at Alfa then, gives a good example of that. When trying to understand why the 158 lapped faster than the 512, even with 100 HP less and an impossible swinging axle rear suspension Busso said that if, a few year later, any of his drawing men had designed a car with such an odd rolling axis, he would have been immediately laughed at. The point is that those who did know that either were not involved in the project, or didn't want to cooperate, and Ricart had nopt the racing experience to immediately spot what was wrong.

So what Ricart lacked was probably mostly the social competence to manage people and have them cooperating together, but his task was probably flawed by his initial conditions: foreigner, too much identified with fascism, and possibly a little bit self conscious? :rolleyes:

#18 angst

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 23:18

Thank you Patrick Italiano. That reading of the situation pretty much sums up how I had read the situation, but clarified some important points. Instead of the new cars being designed with the assistance of the racing team, and experienced racing people, they seem to have been designed with as little help as possible from those people. The resentment felt about his appointment seems to have seriously undermined him; so not only were his designs (which were longer term projects) ill-timed because of the war, but the very people whose collaboration he needed to rely upon were offering him little or no help.
I think the term 'cutting your nose off to spite your face' fits perfectly. IF there had been no war then the Alfa team would have been seriously uncompetitive as the funded designs would be flawed by the lack of response by the racing team to the engineer in charge. It just goes to show, though, that the history of even the nuts and bolts side of motorsport is always enlivened by the human stories behind it.
As usual TNF comes up trumps with enlightening (certainly to me) facts and insights. :up:

#19 Vitesse2

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 23:36

One wonders why Alfa and Ricart persisted with the 162, when it was becoming obvious by mid-1939 that it might be obsolescent before it had raced and that at best it would only have one season of GP racing in Europe. The engine wasn't actually ready until March 1940, although it did produce (on the bench) power outputs comparable to the W154/39. Did they perhaps plan an assault on Indianapolis, either as a works team or by proxy?

Angst: in "First among Champions", David Venables sets out pretty much the same arguments as Patrick has outlined, but with a bit more background, including references to Harry Ricardo having been consulted re the 162 as early as July 1938.

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#20 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 11:00

Vitesse2,

the answer to your question is in your message: The work on the 162 project had begun as early as end-1937 / early 1938, when there were not yet discussions on the new racing formula. At a certain point, you better go ahead an check what your new car can actually give as output and track response than drop it all. Consulting Ricardo so early proves also the point that Ricart looked for the best engineering layouts right from the beginning instead of consulting after his designs didn't work. But they weren't unprepared for the new formula, since the 512 project took place simultaneously, and eventually hit the track a little bit before the 162.

The planned power would have gone, of course, beyong the first bench test results with some development. But there, you understand that since the formula no longer existed, there was no point in wornking for a better output from the 162.

Indy? :p :p It just took 50 years more :p :p

#21 Vitesse2

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 12:46

Sorry, Patrick, but I still fail to see why they persisted with it - I knew it had a long gestation period, but there were plenty of opportunities to kill it off. From what published contemporary sources are available, it seems pretty obvious that the 1.5/4.5 GP Formula would have been adopted in 1941 for definite and might even have been introduced for 1940. Italy had abandoned the prevailing GP Formula for their home races, so why persist in developing a 3.0 litre s/c V12, which, at best, under peacetime conditions, might have raced five times?

By the time it was bench tested, the Formula to which it had been built was dead and buried - even allowing for the Germans' Verano proposals to run wartime races: Alfa were present there, yet they apparently didn't want to run 3.0 litre cars but were forced into it by the Germans. Even so, the Italians still only agreed to run one home race to the GP Formula.

OTOH, it's a great pity the only one built was destroyed .... :

#22 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 15:01

Originally posted by Vitesse2
so why persist in developing a 3.0 litre s/c V12,


I guess you mean V16...

Originally posted by Vitesse2

OTOH, it's a great pity the only one built was destroyed .... :


I strongly believe, but didn't find definitive evidence so far, it was wrecked after the war.

#23 Vitesse2

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 20:40

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano


I guess you mean V16...


:blush:

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano

I strongly believe, but didn't find definitive evidence so far, it was wrecked [B]after
the war.


By "wrecked" do you mean in testing? I understood it was just left lying around at Portello and broken up in about 1951.

#24 angst

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 09:01

Originally posted by Vitesse2


OTOH, it's a great pity the only one built was destroyed .... :


It's strange you should say that. I'm sure I have seen a picture of the 162, and I'm pretty certain it was a modern picture - quite possibly from the Alfa museum. I'll have to have a search and see. I may be very much mistaken and it may have been an old one. By the way Vitesse2, is the David Venables book worth getting? Does it cover Alfa's racing activities comprehensively?

#25 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 12:29

Definitely worth getting! It doesn't cover the post-war sports cars, but it does include the pre-war 158 voiturettes and passing references to the earlier 1500s (for more on those, see his earlier "Racing 1500s"). The pre-war sports cars are integral to the story, so they are included in some detail. The Alfa-engined GP cars from McLaren, March, Brabham and Osella are also featured.

As to pictures of the 162 ... Patrick may know of another, but the only one I've ever seen is of a mock-up. That appears in Venables and also in DCN's "Motor Racing Mavericks".

#26 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 15:32

I agree that David Venables' book is worth getting it. Not all the racing eras are covered with equal depth, but still a good book.

I know of two pics of the 162, both 1940 vintage: the mock-up you quote, and another one of the real car, complete. There are then a couple of pics of the car getting finished, without body panels. Some are in the book on Ricart already quoted. But those are poorer as quality. (well, the other ones don't deserve a photo concours prize !) :rolleyes:

You're right, the most probable fate is that it survived the war only to be broken up (that's what I meant - I apologize for my sometimes poor english :blush: ) around 1950-1951. But I would be very happy if I could find solid evidence of that.

I have no records of the 162 being further tested after the war, but the 512, instead, hit the track in 1946 or 1947. I have a report, but not available now, so I can't check the exact circumstances. But the 512 was definitely taken into consideration for postwar racing, just to conclude that the 158 had enough potential and was easier to develop.

So I guess that angst has 512 pictures in mind when he refers to modern pics, because ALAS :o :( :cry: :mad: the 162 is long gone... Or is it possibly a confusion with the 12C37/312, ex-Varzi car, restored a few years ago?

#27 GIGLEUX

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 19:20

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Definitely worth getting! It doesn't cover the post-war sports cars, but it does include the pre-war 158 voiturettes and passing references to the earlier 1500s (for more on those, see his earlier "Racing 1500s"). The pre-war sports cars are integral to the story, so they are included in some detail. The Alfa-engined GP cars from McLaren, March, Brabham and Osella are also featured.

As to pictures of the 162 ... Patrick may know of another, but the only one I've ever seen is of a mock-up. That appears in Venables and also in DCN's "Motor Racing Mavericks".


For your info, Richard:

Posted Image

The 162 at the works with Ricart in the cockpit.

Posted Image

Posted Image

In Motor Racing Mavericks Doug Nye wrote the only 162 built was destroyed by bombing of the Portello works. David Venables don't say what happened to the car. By Luigi Fusi, in Alfa Romeo, tutte le vetture dal 1910, we know that one car was built and pieces made for six cars some of them used in the 163.

#28 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 22:54

I've said it before, Jean-Maurice, but your archives continue to amaze! And you're right about Doug's note on the bombing of Portello, too - if that is to be believed then obviously both Patrick and I are confusing it with the 163 coupé, although it's hard to say what was a 162 and what was a 163.

Some interesting detail changes on the car compared with the mock-up too: a front end much more like the pre-war 158s, louvres on the sides. From that angle, it shows how unusually wide the body was for the time: I suspect there might have been some heat issues with the brakes!

#29 GIGLEUX

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 00:12

The 163 was a closed racing car with rear engine. It was built to enter Sport cars races in 1941.
The engine was of the same type as the 162, i.e. 3000 cc 16 cyl at 135°, 62x62 but with atmospheric feeding (eight double choke carbs) instead of supercharging; 190 hp were obtained on the test bench and it was hoped to obtain 240 hp.
Of course the war stopped the completion of the car though it required only final body finishing.
Always in Motor Racing Mavericks, Doug said us it was scrapped in 1953!

Posted Image

#30 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 14:10

Yes, Jean-Maurice, those are the pics I had in mind. There's an extra one, limited to the cockpit, from behind, again with Ricart at the wheel.

There are also full drawings of the car overall layout, but I have it in a too large size, divided in four parts, and I'm not able to reconstitute the puzzle proprerly to post a decent image.

Richard, I don't understand your point about the brakes

Originally posted by GIGLEUX

In Motor Racing Mavericks Doug Nye wrote the only 162 built was destroyed by bombing of the Portello works. David Venables don't say what happened to the car. By Luigi Fusi, in Alfa Romeo, tutte le vetture dal 1910, we know that one car was built and pieces made for six cars some of them used in the 163.


Doug?... DOUG? :)

My assumption is that actually Alfa organized to put more or less all their racing cars in safe places, and I assume the 162 to have followed the same path as the 163, unless evidence of another fate is available.

Anyone out there? :p

#31 GIGLEUX

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 20:10

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano
There are also full drawings of the car overall layout, but I have it in a too large size, divided in four parts, and I'm not able to reconstitute the puzzle proprerly to post a decent image.


Maybe are you speaking of that?Posted Image

#32 Vitesse2

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 20:47

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano
Richard, I don't understand your point about the brakes


Just looked like they might not be adequately ventilated .... :)

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano
Doug?... DOUG? :)


I think he's rather busy this weekend ....

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano
My assumption is that actually Alfa organized to put more or less all their racing cars in safe places, and I assume the 162 to have followed the same path as the 163, unless evidence of another fate is available.

Anyone out there? :p

Venables says the first major raid on Milan was on October 24th 1942, but Portello was not hit. At this point the 158s were moved to Monza, where they were stored in garages in the paddock, only being moved to the cheese factory after the Germans took over Monza as a vehicle park (August 1943?). Portello was bombed on February 14th 1943 and again (devastatingly) on October 20th 1944. The first two raids were by RAF heavies (Halifaxes and/or Lancasters), the third by B-24 Liberators of the USAAF 12th AF.

#33 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 25 June 2004 - 11:23

Originally posted by GIGLEUX


Maybe are you speaking of that?


Yes that one, plus the other seen from above.

Richard, you can see a cooling vent on the front left brake... But even with far less power, the 316 was indeed weak on brakes, and that was a concern for its last entry at Francorchamps 1939.

As for the bombings: yes, thanks, I know :rolleyes: ;) But they actually saved alot of racing cars, and I hardly see how they could have stored safe so many others and not the 162.

#34 Manel

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 18:04

Ricart was an Catalan genius, as were Gaudi, Dalí or Miró. All of them scarcely appreciated or misunderstood by their contemporary society.
Their pieces of art were and still are, and will be for the years to come because intemporal like Citizen Kane, Mahler simphony or an early "2CV " Citroën.

A couple of years ago, I wrote a book on Ricart creative opus and controverted personality.

#35 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 13:48

Originally posted by Manel
Ricart was an Catalan genius, as were Gaudi, Dalí or Miró. All of them scarcely appreciated or misunderstood by their contemporary society.
Their pieces of art were and still are, and will be for the years to come because intemporal like Citizen Kane, Mahler simphony or an early "2CV " Citroën.

A couple of years ago, I wrote a book on Ricart creative opus and controverted personality.


MMMhh.

I'm of the idea that Ricart deserves to be defended from too negative opinions, especially the very bad faith ones by Ferrari, possibly also from Sanesi's recollections which need to be looked at bearing in mind the climate of the immediate post WWII, but I would refrain from calling him a worldwide genius as well.

I guess that the book you wrote is in Spanish, but as I can well live with that, could you please quote the full title and give indications on how to get a copy?

It may be worth quoting Giuseppe Busso's freshly published memories. Busso is very, very negative with Vittorio Jano, in such a way that Dr. Sala, in the preface, felt the need for some defense ( :eek: ), but instead respects much Ricart's figure, at the point that Busso almost left Alfa to join Ricart in Spain, in 1947. Actually, Busso resigned from Alfa, but instead of moving to Spain, he got a few days later Ferrari's offer and decided for Maranello.

I take the occasion to ask our moderator to correct the thread title's spelling: WIFREDO, not Wilfredo.

:wave: