8 replies to this topic

[GIGLEUX]

At the end of 1959 or beginning of 1960, the CSI decided to create a Cup for F2 constructors. It was on the same line as the one for F1 constructors. From official text:

Art.1 Two cups will be atributed to constructors of racing cars, to know:
-La Coupe des constructeurs "Formule 1"
-La Coupe des constructeurs "Formule 2"
Art.2 For attribution of these Cups will be considered results of the global season in such qualifying events as specified in Art10.
Art.3 for F1
Art.4 For attribution of the Coupe F2 will be considered the general classification of events open exclusively to cars of the Formule Internationale de course N°2, as selected by the CSI and conforming to the following conditions: minimum distance of 200 km and minimum duration of 100 minutes.
Art.5 For each of these two cups, the minimum of qualifying events will be of five. For each cup only one event by country will be considered. Nevertheless, the CSI will be allowed to consider two qualifying events in a same country for one or the other cup if the number of organized races is under five.
Art.6 Points: in each qualifying event, points will be attributed as follow, considering place of the car in general classification:
to the make of the classified car:
-1: 8 points
-2: 6 points
-3: 4 points
-4: 3 points
-5: 2 points
-6: 1 point
Will be first, the make with the more points.
Art.8: if ex-aequo will be first the make with the highest number of first places, then if always ex-aequo the highest number of second places and so on.
If in spite of this two makes were always ex-aequo will be considered the quality of places not counted in the best classifications (see art.6). If always impossible the victorious make would be designated by the CSI.
Art.9: under the name automobile make is designated a "set" chassis-engine. If a constructor uses an engine he does not produce the car will be considered as being an "hybrid" and the name of the engine maker will be associated to the one of the chassis maker, but it has to be a "knowned" engine.
In case one cup or the other, or the two, would be won by an "hybrid car" the cup would go to the chassis maker.
Art.10 For the year 1960 qualifying events for the Coupe des Constructeurs F2 will be:
-GP de Syracuse 19 of march
-GP de Bruxelles 10 of april
-GP de Pau 18 of april
-GP d'Aintree 30 of april
A fith event has to be selected. German GP will be considered for F1 Cup or F2 one when german organizers will have choised in which formula their GP will be raced. They will have to advice at minimum three months before the date of the event.

At first, please excuse my poor english but at the time the official langage of the CSI was French and I'm trying to translate the text in the most accurate way.

Now the facts:
At Syracuse, Ferrari 8 pts Cooper 6 pts Lotus 3 pts
At Brussels, Porsche 8 pts Cooper 6 pts Ferrari and Lotus 0 pt
At Pau, Cooper 8 pts Porsche 4 pts Ferrari and Lotus 0 pt
At Aintree, Porsche 8 pts Cooper 3 pts Ferrari and Lotus 0 pt
German GP, Porsche 8 pts Cooper 4 pts Ferrari and Lotus 0 pt

So we have:
-Porsche 28 pts
-Cooper 27 pts
-Ferrari 8 pts
-Lotus 3 pts

Porsche: 3 victories 2 second 2 third 1 fourth one fifth one sixth places
Cooper: 1 victory 3 second 3 third 3 fourth 4 fith 4 sixth
Ferrari: 1 victory (for only one participation)
Lotus: one fourth place (the only one placing in the points)

AND THE CSI PLACED PORSCHE AND COOPER FIRST EX-AEQUO!!!

Can somebody explain why?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX

At Brussels, Porsche 8 pts Cooper 6 pts Ferrari and Lotus 0 pt

Didn't Jack Brabham win that race?

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

Didn't Jack Brabham win that race?

Correct. One of those strange belgian 2 part races,results by points;
winner is the one with LEAST points.
Brabham,2nd + 1st =3pts
Moss,1st +3rd=4pts

However if you add the TIMES together;
Moss;1:13'25.6 + 1:23'51.6 = 2:37'17.2
Brabham; 1:14'16.5 + 1:23'21.9 = 2:37'38.4

[Felix Muelas]

Jean Maurice,

We took a look at the subject some time ago

[GIGLEUX]

Roger, Rob and Felix thank you for correcting me.

First lesson: read more attentively Sheldon who gave two classifications!
Second lesson : use in TNF the search BB.

Nevertheless, for me there is always a mystery which was also signaled in French magazine "L'automobile" of beginning of 1961.
Felix, for you, what is this rule of four best results. I don't have it in the CSI official text. Maybe a modification was published later? The four best results for five races is in Art.10 about the 1960 Drivers championship.
If we consider the five races we have Cooper 29 pts and Porsche 26 pts. Of course with four best results they were ex-aequo but Cooper had three second places v. Porsche two second places. So, always following the CSI rules Cooper would have been proclaimed champion!

[Roger Clark]

In the other thread, Felix says that only a manufacturer's best four results counted. I can't see any mention of that in the regulations quoted by Gigleux. However, Autosport's report of the GErman Grand Prix says that following the race, Cooper and Porsche were equal with 26 points each. That would only be possible if Cooper dropped points for Surtees' 4th place at Aintree.

THey then have two wins each (Brussels and Pau for Cooper, Aintree and the 'Ring for Porsche); Cooper have two seconds (Syracuse and Pau), and Porsche have three (Brussels, Aintree and the 'Ring), not the other way round. Porsche would therefore win the championship.

One possible solution is that when it comes to counting the number of second places, you don't include the races you also won. This seems perverse (but this is the FIA we're talking about), and it might be what is alluded to in the second paragraph of article 8. In that case Cooper count Syracuse and Porsche count Brussels.

On the same basis, they both have one counting third (Gendebien at Pau for Porsche, Brabham at the 'ring for Cooper) and no counting 4th or 5ths. This would make them equal winners.

I think I'll go and lie down now.

[uechtel]

Richard von Frankenberg deals with the issue in a passage in the race programme of the 1960 German Grand Prix:

"...there are also championships that remain open and will be decided only in the last event.

A situation like this we have this year in the "World Championship Cup of Constructors" in Formula 2, the inofficial world championships of makes in Formula 2. The German Grand Prix on the Nürburgring is the last of five races and only here will be decided, ,whether the championship will fall to Cooper or to Porsche...

...what about the chances of the German company? And what conditions are valid for this championship?

The FIA has allowed each country one event in the series. In Italy it was the GP of Syracuse, Belgium the GP of Bruxelles, France the Pau GP and in England the famous 150 mile race at Aintree...

... in these four events so far Ferrari, Cooper, Lotus and Porsche have sent works teams.

The first race at Syracuse was a Ferrari win, the Italian factory scored 8 points. Trintignant was second in a Cooper, 6 points for the English company. The best Lotus of Innes Ireland was in fourth place, 3 points. This is the same scoring system as in the world championship for drivers, but only the best placed car of any factory scores the points. So despite Cooper came home 2nd, 3rd, fth and 6th they got only the points for second place.

At Bruxelles Porsche was more successful. Moss finished second behind Brabham in a Cooper, the first points for the Zuffenhausen factory.

A week later the Pau GP was held. And again Brabham was ahead in the Cooper. The factory Porsche driven by Gendebien (again only one factory car in the race) was third, which made only 6 + 4 = 10 points in addition. Thus the German company lay ahead of Ferrari (8 points), but way gehind Cooper (6 + 8 + 8 = 22). After this race it looked as if Cooper had the championship secure, but then came the great Porsche day at Aintree. Besides the Walker car of Moss Porsche had another two works cars in the race, driven by Joakim Bonnier and Graham Hill. And in this sequence Moss-Bonnier-Hill the Porsches crossed the line in 1st to 3rd place. So 8 points to Porsche, only three for Cooper, as the best Cooper driver, motorcycle champion Surtees, came only in fourth place. The Lotus had again retired.

Now the sporting commitee of the FIA had decided, that of five runs only the best four would count. Cooper so far has 25 points from four races. Let´s calculate: If Porsche wins the German GP, then they get 8 points and would reach 26 points out of four races - and with that beaten Cooper. But if a Cooper crosses the line second behind the winning Porsche, the English company will be able to exchange this 2nd place with the 4th place from Aintree and reach 28 points, so beating Porsche..."

So no mention of rules in case of a tie, which is quite remarkable in such a detailed explanation.

If we consider the five races we have Cooper 29 pts and Porsche 26 pts. Of course with four best results they were ex-aequo but Cooper had three second places v. Porsche two second places. So, always following the CSI rules Cooper would have been proclaimed champion!

Jean-Maurice, not quite:

Cooper:  2 x 1st (Bruxelles, Pau)	   + 2 x 2nd (Syracuse, Pau)...

Porsche: 2 x 1st (Aintree, Nürburgring) + [b]3[/b] x 2nd (Bruxelles, Aintree, Nürburgring)

Art.8: if ex-aequo will be first the make with the highest number of first places, then if always ex-aequo the highest number of second places and so on.

So this would have given the championship to Porsche.

[GIGLEUX]

Markus, thank you for this essential precision about the addentum of the CSI about the four best results considered.
Of course I was wrong about the number of second placings, always the "fantaisist" classification published by Sheldon for the Brussels GP...!which put some confusion in my stats.
So we have: Porsche 0+6+4+8+8=26
Cooper 6+8+8+(3)+4=26
Porsche 3 second places (Brussels-Aintree-German)
Cooper 2 second places (Syracuse-Pau).
And Porsche would have been the sole champion but...

[uechtel]

so do we have perhaps another 1939?

Scandalous...