43 replies to this topic

[Henri Greuter]

Hi all,

I think the British members will have to tell the most about this subject.

Last weekend I saw the docymentary "Nazi Grand Prix" on Discovery Channel.
A totally wrong title in my opinion. Instead of being about GP racing by the Nazi's it is a documentary/biography on Mercedes driver Richard `Dick`Seaman.
By the way, our much respected fellow member Doug Nye also commented within this program

Now the end of the program caused me some thinking.
It was stated that the memory of Seaman within England was rather soon ignored because of the fact that he scored his biggest result ever in a German car and that even Hitler send a big funeral wrath. So, without saying so much, it appears as if they wanted to suggest: Seaman had Nazi sympathies.

Now we do know that a number of the M-B and A-U drivers were enlisted within a Nazi-sanctioned organisation yet several of them were clearly not in sympathy with the Nazi ideology. Rudolf Carracciola who went to Swiss during the was to avoid being drafted and serve the war in one example. Bernd Rosemeyer somehow ended up with an SS assignment which he retained but on one occasion he made it very clear that this wasn't his own choise, never used it to any benefit somehow and without any hesitation hand it back whenever asked for it since it meant nothing at all for him.

Was Dick Seaman wrongly judged by the Brits?
Wasn't he another example of people blinded by an obsession to obtain the best possible, or forfill his dream? And being fooled by the Nazi or simply too naive to understood what they stood for?
Seaman wanted the best racing cars and win: the Germans had them and he was given access to them.

Other examples of people believed to be blinded by the Nazi Politics in their obsession to achieve and forfill their dreams.
Ferdinand Porsche: He wanted to motorize the world with the Volkswagen and went to Hitler in order to achieve his dream.
May I add Wernher von Braun to the list as well?

Another case I've learned about due to my profession: Many scientists rate Albert Einstein as the biggest scientist ever when he discovered E=MC2 and all that is related with that, including the built-up of the atom and how atomic energy was discovered before and during the war.
It is however suggested that the Danish scientist Niels Bohr contributed much more to the understanding of nuclear fysics than anybody else. But what worked against Bohr is that he gained that knowledge in the Norwegion heavy water plant, occupied by the Germans and used in their quest to develop their atomic bomb. And in his fascination to split the atom and understand all of that, Bohr never realized that the Nazi's were primarily interested in using that technology for bombs and not for the scientifical significance of the discovery itself. Eventually, Einstein himself made a message for Bohr which was smuggled into the Heavy Water plant and Bohr finaaly saw the light at last. Bohr escaped and went working for the Allied but his reputation tarnished ever since.


EDIT 22/7/2005: About Bohr, the facts above were not correct. See Post number 43
Henri




And another example within my own country.
legendary hatred objects used during the German occupation was the "Ausweis", a mandatory identity card every citizen had to have. The local resistance had big troubles to get enough false ones for their own purposes and coverups. The best "Ausweis" within the entire "Third Reich" was the Dutch one. Due to the fact that somehere within the Dutch government there was an officer who was obsessed with making the perfect identification paper, that was about impossible to make false copies of and he went on to develop an ID that was indeed near perfect. He was so pleased with his work that he went on to the Nazi's to show what he had made and come up with for thoughts, the Nazi government being absolutely amazed with all the ideas of this fellow and they took over his design of ID card with all the trick elements to avoid false duplication instantly. It was miles ahead of what they had in mind to do. This official even joined the Nazi party since it helped him in order to make his "ausweis" even better because a Party member he had full access to everything he wanted to use while the Nazi Government of the Netherlands appreciated all these efforst very much while it helped them tremendously.
The officer being totally pleased about his work being recognized by the authority never realized that due to his inventions, the local resistance had to bend itself to the most unusual tricks in order to come up with false duplicates of Dutch "Ausweise" that survived inspection by the Nazi's. Due to this man's obsession for perfection, thousands of innocent people as well als resistance people and dropped spies must have been jailed and killed, all because of being caught with false "Ausweise", making them suspects to begin and target for the SS, Gestapo, Grünen, SD and so on.
Unbeknown to many, the near impossiblity to copy the Dutch "Ausweis" was a major obstacle for the local resistance within their activities, compared with, for example, the French resistance.


Long explanation to come to my question.

Do you think Dick Seaman had indeed Nazi sympathies and for that reason is more or less ignored or was he just a fanatic racer? One who was so blinded by his love for the sport and determined to succeed at all costs that he allowed himself to be compromised by signing up for a German team and becoming a Nazi manipulated puppet in order to keep on ding what he loved to do the best of all: race with top material on the highest level of racing possible?
Lik Ferdinand Porsche, like von Braun, like Niels Bohr, all eager to forfill their dreams?

Thanks for your time, attention and imput.

Henri Greuter

[D-Type]

Henri,
The programme first came out on British Channel 4 and was discussed at length on This Thread. I don't have time to re-read it now, but, if I remember correctly, the consensus opinion was similar to yours.

[Knightrider]

I hold many records and documentation of grand prix in the time of the NSDAP (nazi party)

If anybody would like to view the documents i have scanned, just ask.

i have over 3000 pages of material from this period of time.

also much designnsheets of cars too.

[Vitesse2]

Henri: as D-type has said, we discussed this at length when the show first aired in Britain.

However: to answer your final question - I don't think Dick was blind to the politics. He consulted Earl Howe and others before signing for M-B for 1937, due to his own misgivings about the Nazi regime. The balance of opinion was that he should go.

Remember, in Britain at the time, we had no heritage of road racing: apart from Brooklands there was only one permanent track (soon to be two), so, alongside Raymond Mays and Howe, Seaman was a trailblazer. The plucky Briton going across the Channel to do battle with the "damned foreigners" ....

And who else would he have driven for, if not one or other German team? Dick was ambitious from the first and his avowed intention was always to drive in Grands Prix. Twenty years later he could (and I'm sure would) have been able to drive exclusively for British teams. But even Stirling had to compromise on that ....

Had he lived, I don't think he would have been compromised. In fact, I think he would have been a valuable asset to the British war effort in all sorts of ways. We already speculated about the possibility that he would have flown for the RAF (he was a qualified and experienced pilot), but his knowledge of the inner workings of M-B would also have been helpful to British intelligence.

[Rosemayer]

Here is a link that is English

observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,6903,782811,00.html

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter


...
Another case I've learned about due to my profession: Many scientists rate Albert Einstein as the biggest scientist ever when he discovered E=MC2 and all that is related with that, including the built-up of the atom and how atomic energy was discovered before and during the war.
It is however suggested that the Danish scientist Niels Bohr contributed much more to the understanding of nuclear fysics than anybody else. But what worked against Bohr is that he gained that knowledge in the Norwegion heavy water plant, occupied by the Germans and used in their quest to develop their atomic bomb. And in his fascination to split the atom and understand all of that, Bohr never realized that the Nazi's were primarily interested in using that technology for bombs and not for the scientifical significance of the discovery itself. Eventually, Einstein himself made a message for Bohr which was smuggled into the Heavy Water plant and Bohr finaaly saw the light at last. Bohr escaped and went working for the Allied but his reputation tarnished ever since.
...

Bohr's reputation tarnished? NEVER heard that as a Dane and I can ASSURE you that the example can't be similar to the British spurning Seaman, as Bohr is held in the highest esteem here in Denmark.

And according to at least This biography Bohr knew VERY well, what the Germans were up to AND warned the Americans in 1939 thereby pushing for the Manahattan programme to be launched:

...After Hitler took power in Germany, Bohr was deeply concerned for his colleagues there, and offered a place for many escaping Jewish scientists to live and work. He later donated his gold Nobel medal to the Finnish war effort. In 1939 Bohr visited the United States with the news from Lise Meitner (who had escaped German-occupied Austria) that German scientists were working on splitting the atom. This spurred the United States to launch the Manhattan Project to develop the atomic bomb. Shortly after Bohr's return home, the German army occupied Denmark. Three years later Bohr's family fled to Sweden in a fishing boat. Then Bohr and his son Aage left Sweden traveling in the empty bomb rack of a British military plane. They ultimately went to the United States, where both joined the government's team of physicists working on atomic bomb at Los Alamos...

I know you to be a very serious and correct person Henri G. so I would like you to provide links to article where I can see Bohr's "bad" reputation substantiated, because frankly this is totally new to me.

[Vitesse2]

Rosemayer: that review should be read with a certain amount of caution, bearing in mind that the editorial stance of the Observer is somewhat left of centre.

I noted the rather "superior" comment there about Dick being given only a short obituary in the Daily Telegraph. That should be set in the context that in period, as a mere sportsman (ignore the aristocrat BS!) he was rather unusual in receiving an obituary in the paper at all. The Telegraph would give fulsome obits to retired Indian Civil Servants and crusty old colonels, but sport (other than cricket or horse racing - the favoured pursuits of the leisured and moneyed) was a bit infra dig. And even in cricket, a "player" (ie professional) would receive much less notice than a "gentleman" (ie amateur).

I wonder if he got an obituary in the then "Manchester Guardian"?

[Vitesse2]

And on Bohr: IIRC he was in fairly constant touch with elements of the Danish Resistance and left the country when it became clear that the Nazis intended to deport him and his family to Germany. I have a book somewhere on the history of the resistance in Denmark, which tells the whole story.

[Rosemayer]

Vitesse2

Thank you for the insite in to that newspaper. Totally unknown here in the USA

[Doug Nye]

Henry -

Seaman was NOT 'spurned' by his country in period.

You attach too much significance to the mere title of that programme, which I was told had been chosen by the original British Channel 4 commissioning editor to add a press-promotable 'hook' to what set out to be a reasonably well-balanced retelling of the story. Most crucially the title was intended to SELL the programme to the kind of fat-headed, stereotype-demanding, know-nothing smug omniscipooves who commission global TV programming. The true tastes, interest and knowledge of the viewers hardly come into it.

DCN

[ensign14]

I've never heard anything about Bohr being involved with the Nazis either, I thought he left Denmark as soon as he could and his physics knowledge proved invaluable to the Allies. Mathematician brother Harald (and silver medallist at Olympic football back in 1912) was also in the States at around this time.

I once read that sticking a swastika or a picture of Hitler on a book about WW2 is guaranteed to up the sales by 30% or so...I guess Channel 4 had the same approach with the use of the term "Nazi". One of the most compelling bits about Seaman as non-Nazi was his humorously pathetic attempt at a Hitler salute before the hierarchy on the 'podium' at the Ring in 1938 - he turned it into an embarrassed wave! And this was before the world at large knew about Hitler, in a year when he was put forward for the Nobel Peace Prize...

As for being forgotten - I don't know if he was, but then again the likes of Segrave are not known over here for their Grand Prix successes.

[Henri Greuter]

OK, reply by me as I think they are necessary.

First: I wasn't aware that this Discovery doc was aired already on BBC. I can't receive BBC. Had I known this thn I would not have openend this thread.
To those who feel offended I did: my apologies, now you know why I did so.


Doug,

I liked the doc as it was because it gave an interesting view on Dick and made me understand how he could end up in a German team after all. The title was perhaps a poor reflection of what it was really all about but got to admit I don't know a better title myself.
Other than that, maybe a bit more attention as of how Dick was judged by the British may have been in place. As the end was right now it appeared to me as if the British are having negative thoughts about Seaman. Which I think, based on what I saw within the doc ians't entirely justified, if justified at all.


jcbc3

Thanks for your comments.
Regfrettably I can't give you the details about where I read that comment about Bohr. I was a student in the early eightties and my textbook about nuclear fysics also contained a chapter with some brief descriptions about the big names in that world. Bohr was mentioned among others like Rutherford, Pirrac and Heissenberg as well as Einstein.
I don't recall the exact lines anymore but it read something like: "Bohr's contributions to nuclear fysics cannot be underestimated but for many his achievements shall always be associated with the fact that it contributed to the Nazi knowledge of atomic energy and Nazi Germany coming awfully close to obtaining an atomic bomb courtesy the work of Niels Bohr."



Only a year or two later I saw a TV series about the destruction of the Norwegian Heavy Water Plant, no doubt rather dramatized for the effects and thus far less correct. Let me give the story as it went.
The series was entitled "Codename Intrepid" with David Niven playing the role of one of Britains highest officers in secret intelligence.
Within that series, Bohr was put down as a rather naive scientist, eager to achieve his goal, aware of the dangers behind it but convinced that the Nazi's newer would consider the use of such a destructive weapon like an atomc bomb. It went so far that it was seriously considered to murder Bohr to assure his help to the Nazi's came to an end. Large risks were taken by the local resistance to deliver messages to Bohr to quit his work but he stubbornly refused since he refused to believe the Germans wanted atomic bombs.
Finally. The British intelligence director (played by Niven) and his assistent went to Einstein and told him what was happening. Einstein also refused to believe Germany willing to use atomic bombs but eventually he cooperated in writing message for Bohr to quit and stop his work. That message also found its way to Bohr and then finally left for America.
I am fairly certain that, to make British Intelligence look better, the part of Bohr in the plot is changed quite a bit to make him look far more naive.
But the story was based on actual facts and one of the actual facts was that Bohr contributed to the knowledge withtin Nazi germany of atomic bombs.

I don't cionclude too much out of that TV series, I know it was dramatized and overdone. But the textbook was my prime source of info, Since it didn't detail war history I don't know if Bohr did cooperate with the local resistance yes or no since I haven't pursued reseach in that area and my knowledge is thus inclomplete, perhaps biased because of a school textbook author who wrote his book in the 70's, an entirely differnt era as we all know...

I hope this fills you in enough?

EDIT 22/7/2005: See post 43 for added reply about the truth about Niels Bohr.
Henri


Sorry to anybody who feels offended since Inopened this can of worms.

Henri Greuter

[FredF1]

Originally posted by ensign14
I've never heard anything about Bohr being involved with the Nazis either, I thought he left Denmark as soon as he could and his physics knowledge proved invaluable to the Allies. Mathematician brother Harald (and silver medallist at Olympic football back in 1912) was also in the States at around this time.

I once read that sticking a swastika or a picture of Hitler on a book about WW2 is guaranteed to up the sales by 30% or so...I guess Channel 4 had the same approach with the use of the term "Nazi". One of the most compelling bits about Seaman as non-Nazi was his humorously pathetic attempt at a Hitler salute before the hierarchy on the 'podium' at the Ring in 1938 - he turned it into an embarrassed wave! And this was before the world at large knew about Hitler, in a year when he was put forward for the Nobel Peace Prize...

As for being forgotten - I don't know if he was, but then again the likes of Segrave are not known over here for their Grand Prix successes.

As humourist Alan Coren demonstrated.


http://www.anecdotag...ex.php?aid=9722

[skinnylizard]

i saw the documentary although not all of it. although this was a few weeks ago i dont remember the title. the program itself was pretty awesome i thought. Seaman came across as quite the racing driver.
very interesting indeed. i find it amazing that Discovery does much better quality racing programming then speedvision (when i used to be in america)

[Mohican]

My grandfather travelled extensively in Germany at the time, and I have read his correspondence home describing beatings in the street, etc. Having experienced the DDR in the 80's, I cannot believe for a single moment that a visiting foreigner would not have noticed the surveillance, etc. Personally always felt that Seaman must have been perfectly aware that all was not well in Germany at the time - but that he chose to disregard things, in order to have the possibility of driving the Mercedes.

That in itself does not make him a National Socialist; it just indicates that he was opportunistic, egocentric, possibly quite ruthless in his relations with others, very ambitious and naive.
Sounds like a racing driver to me.

At the same time, do not forget that Hitler was at the time - in 1937 - not necessarily seen as a great evil - in the UK, that is. Communism was certainly seen as much more of a problem - but above all, most Englishmen at the time had very little information, knowledge of or interest in politics in continental Europe (same is true today, by the way).

[Arjan de Roos]

....but that he chose to disregard things, in order to have the possibility of driving the Mercedes.

That in itself does not make him a National Socialist; it just indicates that he was opportunistic, egocentric, possibly quite ruthless in his relations with others, very ambitious and naive.
Sounds like a racing driver to me.

At the same time, do not forget that Hitler was at the time - in 1937 - not necessarily seen as a great evil - in the UK, that is.....

Well said, it was also my feeling after watching, that Seaman knew exactly what he wanted and was ruthless in getting there. Indeed a racing driver. At a stage I felt somewhat pityfull for his parents.

He was a smart and intelligent guy, so he too must have known that Mr. Hitler and friends werent such a nice bunch.

[jcbc3]

They were different times. I'm certain that everyone on these boards, applying those times morals, would act like Seaman did.

If USA had a dictator, should that preclude a racing driver racing for GM or Ford? I don't think so, unless GM and Ford actively supported said dictator.

[Ray Bell]

Maybe a Cuban driver would get a bit of flak?

With regard to Einstein... I was reading recently that his conclusion is merely the reverse of Isaiah 40:26 and merely an indication that he understood the meaning of that verse better than other people.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Mohican
My grandfather travelled extensively in Germany at the time, and I have read his correspondence home describing beatings in the street, etc. Having experienced the DDR in the 80's, I cannot believe for a single moment that a visiting foreigner would not have noticed the surveillance, etc. Personally always felt that Seaman must have been perfectly aware that all was not well in Germany at the time - but that he chose to disregard things, in order to have the possibility of driving the Mercedes.

That in itself does not make him a National Socialist; it just indicates that he was opportunistic, egocentric, possibly quite ruthless in his relations with others, very ambitious and naive.
Sounds like a racing driver to me.

At the same time, do not forget that Hitler was at the time - in 1937 - not necessarily seen as a great evil - in the UK, that is. Communism was certainly seen as much more of a problem - but above all, most Englishmen at the time had very little information, knowledge of or interest in politics in continental Europe (same is true today, by the way).

Well put, Mohican. When Dick signed for MB, the world was still in awe of what seemed to be the greatest Olympic Games ever staged (and "staged" they were!). Hitler's only "aggressive" act had been to reoccupy the Rhineland, which was part of Germany anyway. The assassination of Dollfuss was laid at his door, but the Anschluss was still more than a year away, as was the first stage of the occupation of Czechoslovakia which, in Chamberlain's words was "a far-away country of which we know little". Yes - German troops and planes had fought in Spain, but they were widely seen as more anti-Communist than anything else. Outside Germany, Hitler's most vocal opponents were Socialists, but they were dismissed as Communist fellow-travellers. Oh and Churchill of course ....

[Option1]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Maybe a Cuban driver would get a bit of flak?

With regard to Einstein... I was reading recently that his conclusion is merely the reverse of Isaiah 40:26 and merely an indication that he understood the meaning of that verse better than other people.

Don't believe everything you read Ray.

Neil

[condor]

I just finished reading Hitler's Grands Prix in England Donington 1937 and 1938 by Christopher Hilton this evening....an enjoyable read and gives a far greater insight into those times than a documentary ever could. Well worth getting hold of

My impression was that outside of racing - his mind was full of Erica Popp.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Originally posted by Mohican
That in itself does not make him a National Socialist; it just indicates that he was opportunistic, egocentric, possibly quite ruthless in his relations with others, very ambitious and naive.

RJBS had most of those qualities. One of my lasting impressions from DCN's "Dick & George" was Seaman's single-mindedness in his desire to be a GP driver with the opportunity to win, to the frequent exclusion of almost everything in his path.

In fairness, most of the German drivers of the era paid no more than token attention to the actions of their government, as they too were focused upon racing and politics were a means to a personal end. Let's not forget Tazio Nuvolari, who drove for AU and gave up driving Italian to be in a car that could win. Seaman had no such option, as Britain could not provide him with a competitive challenger.

Seaman was an Englishman first and last, and he certainly devoted some thought to his image in his homeland as evidenced by his consultations with Earl Howe as previously described by Vitesse, and his subsequent correspondence with Howe in Spring, 1939 discussing his concerns over remaining in Germany to drive for MB given the deteriorating political situation between England and Germany.

At the time of his tragic death at Spa, Europe was but weeks away from entering the darkness that was WWII. That most people were otherwise occupied for a number of years before having the luxury of thinking about Seaman or motorsport is not surprising.

Regardless of his many personal shortcomings, he remains the most successful pre-war British GP driver.

[KJJ]

Somewhat intrigued by this and related threads I've just spent rather too long looking through a list of memebers of Mosley's "British Union of Fascists and National Socialists" who were interned during the war. I spotted four who were listed as having motor racing connections, the case of Captain Marendaz is well known but I didn't know about Fay Taylour. Two other names W. G. Barlow and Dorothea Duff, who they?

By the way I found a reference that said that Malcolm Campbell's Bluebird once carried the flash symbol of the Mosleyites, any truth in that?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by KJJ
.....Two other names W. G. Barlow and Dorothea Duff, who they?

Possibly Dorothea was close to John Duff, Le Mans winner?

[scousepenguin]

It was stated in the documentary that Seaman went to Mercedes because he was a racer.

End of story.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by KJJ
Somewhat intrigued by this and related threads I've just spent rather too long looking through a list of memebers of Mosley's "British Union of Fascists and National Socialists" who were interned during the war. I spotted four who were listed as having motor racing connections, the case of Captain Marendaz is well known but I didn't know about Fay Taylour. Two other names W. G. Barlow and Dorothea Duff, who they?

By the way I found a reference that said that Malcolm Campbell's Bluebird once carried the flash symbol of the Mosleyites, any truth in that?

Interesting, somewhere or other I have a pic of Fay Taylour in a car outside a prison. I wonder if this is related....

[Edit: My other half found the pic ages ago -- captioned 'Fay Taylor, Racing Driver, outside Holloway Prison 1936'. Sounds a little early to be arresting Mosley followers.....]

[KJJ]

The list of detainees is on Max's dad's site www.oswaldmosley.com. You need Microsoft Reader to access it. I'm away from my usual machine at the moment but Fay Taylour seemingly did make it to Holloway in 1940, there's a photo of a card she signed with other Mosleyite women prisoners. The list calls her the racing driver Fay Taylour so not a case of mistaken identity. Perhaps those tales of BUF badges in the Brooklands paddock are true.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by KJJ
The list of detainees is on Max's dad's site www.oswaldmosley.com. You need Microsoft Reader to access it. I'm away from my usual machine at the moment but Fay Taylour seemingly did make it to Holloway in 1940, there's a photo of a card she signed with other Mosleyite women prisoners. The list calls her the racing driver Fay Taylour so not a case of mistaken identity. Perhaps those tales of BUF badges in the Brooklands paddock are true.

'she was apparently no less spectacular on the road spending a night in Holloway prison for a 1935 speeding offence' from 'Green Dust' by Brendan Lynch. Fay was Irish,does not somehow equate with fascist?

[KJJ]

Originally posted by Rob29

Fay was Irish,does not somehow equate with fascist?

Have you not heard of Eion O'Duffy's Blueshirt movement? Wasn't Lord Haw Haw also Irish?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by KJJ
Wasn't Lord Haw Haw also Irish?

He was American, but because he travelled on a British passport that was sufficient to determine that he intented to be under the protection of the British crown, and so having broadcast in support of destruction of said crown he was guilty of treason. Consequently he was hanged.

That passport should never have been issued, because his father was Irish*-born and a naturalized American, but claimed to be British to enable him and his family to live in England...

A case of dubious legality, but in 1945 I doubt whether many people cared about the fate of William Joyce.



* at a time when Ireland was still part of the UK

[Vitesse2]

Slightly O/T, but I was half-watching a documentary a few weeks back on the Notting Hill Riots and their aftermath. Oswald Mosley was involved in some sort of nascent right-wing political party (the name of which escapes me). Pictures were shown of the party's members on a march which turned ugly: among those arrested was "Mosley's son Max". IIRC this was in 1959.

And on Ireland - weren't there contacts between the Germans and the IRA during WW2 with a view to sabotage and espionage in Northern Ireland? Or did I imagine that?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

a march which turned ugly

792, but that was after Max had left ;P

[Gary C]

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
Hi all,

May I add Wernher von Braun to the list as well?

Henri Greuter

As Tom Lehrer put it it, " I vas only responsible for putting the rockets in ze air, not for vhere they came down."

[FredF1]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
....
And on Ireland - weren't there contacts between the Germans and the IRA during WW2 with a view to sabotage and espionage in Northern Ireland? Or did I imagine that?

Indeed. Two IRA men were sent to Germany to ask for assistance, weapons and funds.

Here's a link to a book about one of the men, Frank Ryan. The other IRA man, Sean Russell died onboard a U-Boat on their journey back to Ireland.


http://www.brandonbo...redandgreen.htm


There's not much detail there but it's the only reputable site I could find - these kinds of topics produce a lot of unsavoury Google sites.

[oldtimer]

Too frequently I assume all are familiar with British history.

Werner von Braun was responsible for the design of the V2 rockets launched against England near the end of WW2. These credentials opened the door to a post in the early US rocket programme.

On the Irish question, Eire was a neutral state during WW2. Northern Ireland was part of the British Isles and therefore considered hostile territory by the Nazis.

[repcobrabham]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

And on Ireland - weren't there contacts between the Germans and the IRA during WW2 with a view to sabotage and espionage in Northern Ireland? Or did I imagine that?

when i lived in dublin i shared a flat with a lawyer from cork who dismissively referred to "operation cabbage patch": he said it was a plan put to hitler by the IRA to [cutting a long story short] allow a pincer movement on the UK
adolf was also dismissive

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Slightly O/T, but I was half-watching a documentary a few weeks back on the Notting Hill Riots and their aftermath. Oswald Mosley was involved in some sort of nascent right-wing political party (the name of which escapes me). Pictures were shown of the party's members on a march which turned ugly: among those arrested was "Mosley's son Max". IIRC this was in 1959.

Hmm .... it seems Max may have rather whitewashed his past. The programme I saw was on again today - made by BBC Bristol in 2003 in a series called Time Slip.

Knowing it was coming up, I saw a newsreel clip of Max this time, clearly showing him dressed all in black: suit, shirt and tie. The incident was during the 1959 General Election - Oswald Mosley stood as Union Movement candidate in North Kensington and lost his deposit - and was possibly a meeting at Ladbroke Grove.

According to Trevor Grundy in his book "Memoirs of a Fascist Childhood", Max and his brother Alex were involved in canvassing for their father and were apparently pictured in the Daily Mirror as "actual upper-class Teds" (ie Teddy Boys) and organised fascist skiffle parties in an attempt to attract Teds to the party - although it seems the Teds were more interested in Elvis! Grundy and Max were also responsible for the first appearance of the infamous "KBW" (Keep Britain White) graffito on walls throughout the area.

[Owain Shaw]

Probably contributing nothing that wasn't already known to this but, there you go ...

I'm studying German at AS Level this year and for my speaking exam topic I have been reading texts upon German motorsport of the 1930s, the cars, the drivers, the politics.

From my understanding of the texts I've been given, the SS and other organisations vetted all the drivers wanting to compete in German cars and allowed them to compete only if they were satisfied that they were either supportive/not against the regime or good enough that it didn't matter what they thought, they'd do very nicely for the propaganda. And also, I think (although I was never sure on that part of my text - in German) I understood correctly that you couldn't practise motor sports without an SS officer present (possibly just a license from them), unless you were a member of the 'organisation'. This may have been why Rosemeyer had ties with the SS.

The drivers seemed to accept this (as mentioned earlier) because they wanted to race, and if meeting the SS criteria was the only way to do this, they went along with it as far as they felt willing to. Most of them were not believe by their fellow competitors to be genuine Nazi sympathisers, or to have any political interests or motives. I've read that Lang, Rosemeyer and Caracciola were almost certainly not Nazi sympathisers, René Deyfus seemed a little unsure on von Brauchitsch (see last month's Motor Sport). There seems to be less documented on the political views of the 'lesser' drivers within (more so) the Auto Union ranks though. Richard Seaman from what I have read (I'm willing to say that's not a vast amount - I was hoping for more on him but, my teacher seems to have neglected him in favour of more information about Germany - fair enough and per exam criteria no doubt ...) and it was said in the documentary, seems to be another example of a driver who was prepared to accept what was there for him to gain success through.

I had found it interesting that with all the screening of the German drivers I read of, they allowed drivers of other nationalities to drive their cars at all but, it seemed later on to be the case that the Nazis were more keen on promoting their engineering than their drivers necessarily, although they prefered it to be an all-German success (think Nürburgring 1934). There was the case of Paul Peitsch who was deterred from racing by the Nazis, he drove a private Maserati in later races.

Feel free to correct anything and everything (hopefully not necessary!) in there, it will be useful to me ...

[Vitesse2]

Owain: you're pretty much on the money there. I mentioned Chula's book on Seaman - there is a little in there. Chris Nixon's book on Seaman also has some comment on the situation, as does his book on Rosemeyer. But the best overview in English is still the chapter in Nixon's Racing the Silver Arrows. If you're using James Stevenson's book as a source, treat it with caution: as I've pointed out before, in some cases he bends the facts to fit his theories and in extremis takes liberties with chronology.

Regarding Pietsch: I think he went into self-imposed exile after his wife ran off with Varzi - he is thinly disguised as "Peter" in Neubauer's autobiography. He dropped out of GP racing and raced in voiturettes, necessarily outside Germany since the majority of events in 1937-9 were in Italy. By 1939 he was back in GPs for Maserati, but don't be fooled by the various names under which the cars were entered - he was a works driver.

[Mohican]

As I have said before (and apologies for repeating myself): from many other accounts of life in Germany in the late 30's - that have nothing to do with motor racing - I do not believe for a moment that the drivers (or management) of Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union were unaware of the totalitarian nature of the Nazi regime.

And that includes the non-German drivers.

I attach relatively little importance to the drivers' statements; there were no people in Germany in the summer of 1945 who, according to themselves, had ever been Nazi party members or sympathisers.

Actions do speak louder than words, and you could argue that Caracciola's move to Switzerland was a function of his wishing to disassociate himself from the Nazi party. However, if it was a question of principle or conscience, why only do it so late ? Personal convenience, combined with injuries sustained in racing, appears rather more likely - he did not think twice about driving for M-B after the war, still with Neubauer as team manager.

I think it is clear that the top drivers of the day realised that they could not hope to win if they were not driving for either of the German teams, and that their ambition to do so completely blocked out other considerations. In the case of the Germans, I think there was in addition a strong nationalistic element, after WW1 & the depression. In the modern-day (nearly) borderless Europe, with instant communication etc, etc. we overlook the importance of nationalism. This was certainly very important also in Britain and France at the time.

Why should we, seeing that today's drivers are egocentered, opportunistic and fairly ruthless people who as a rule are completely uninterested in the world outside motor racing, believe that the top drivers of the past were fundamentally different ? They just hid it better; or else the passage of time does that for us.

Racing drivers are to be admired as drivers - their politics is another matter altogether. I always admired Carlos Reutemann, both as a driver and as a man - but was dismayed by his going into politics for the Peronists after his retirement. Equally, I once heard Alain Prost express sympathies for Jacques Chirac on French radio...and Guy Ligier was famously on very good terms with Francois Mitterrand. Not that any of this equals working with/for the Nazis - or indeed for the British "blackshirt" leader Sir Oswald Mosley...

[Owain Shaw]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Regarding Pietsch: I think he went into self-imposed exile after his wife ran off with Varzi - he is thinly disguised as "Peter" in Neubauer's autobiography. He dropped out of GP racing and raced in voiturettes, necessarily outside Germany since the majority of events in 1937-9 were in Italy. By 1939 he was back in GPs for Maserati, but don't be fooled by the various names under which the cars were entered - he was a works driver.

Thanks for that. It seems the text I read with a bit on Pietsch was rather misleading then, your correction will prove very useful.

[Henri Greuter]

I reopen this thread since I feel I am obliged to.
Allow me to requote myself first

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
OK, reply by me as I think they are necessary.


jcbc3

Thanks for your comments.
Regfrettably I can't give you the details about where I read that comment about Bohr. I was a student in the early eightties and my textbook about nuclear fysics also contained a chapter with some brief descriptions about the big names in that world. Bohr was mentioned among others like Rutherford, Pirrac and Heissenberg as well as Einstein.
I don't recall the exact lines anymore but it read something like: "Bohr's contributions to nuclear fysics cannot be underestimated but for many his achievements shall always be associated with the fact that it contributed to the Nazi knowledge of atomic energy and Nazi Germany coming awfully close to obtaining an atomic bomb courtesy the work of Niels Bohr."



Only a year or two later I saw a TV series about the destruction of the Norwegian Heavy Water Plant, no doubt rather dramatized for the effects and thus far less correct. Let me give the story as it went.
The series was entitled "Codename Intrepid" with David Niven playing the role of one of Britains highest officers in secret intelligence.
Within that series, Bohr was put down as a rather naive scientist, eager to achieve his goal, aware of the dangers behind it but convinced that the Nazi's newer would consider the use of such a destructive weapon like an atomc bomb. It went so far that it was seriously considered to murder Bohr to assure his help to the Nazi's came to an end. Large risks were taken by the local resistance to deliver messages to Bohr to quit his work but he stubbornly refused since he refused to believe the Germans wanted atomic bombs.
Finally. The British intelligence director (played by Niven) and his assistent went to Einstein and told him what was happening. Einstein also refused to believe Germany willing to use atomic bombs but eventually he cooperated in writing message for Bohr to quit and stop his work. That message also found its way to Bohr and then finally left for America.
I am fairly certain that, to make British Intelligence look better, the part of Bohr in the plot is changed quite a bit to make him look far more naive.
But the story was based on actual facts and one of the actual facts was that Bohr contributed to the knowledge withtin Nazi germany of atomic bombs.

I don't cionclude too much out of that TV series, I know it was dramatized and overdone. But the textbook was my prime source of info, Since it didn't detail war history I don't know if Bohr did cooperate with the local resistance yes or no since I haven't pursued reseach in that area and my knowledge is thus inclomplete, perhaps biased because of a school textbook author who wrote his book in the 70's, an entirely differnt era as we all know...

I hope this fills you in enough?

Sorry to anybody who feels offended since Inopened this can of worms.

Henri Greuter

I know this is off topic and not racing related but it is my duty ro report the following.

In the past months I have done some more research on Niels Bohr. I won't go into details but here are the most important conclusions.

The TV series "Codename Intrepid"of the early 80's is a serious offence to the integrity of Niels Bohr.

Niels Bohr did not contribute at all in person to the German quest to obtain atomic bombs. Maybe he knowledge and publications were used by others but he didn't work in Norway at the heavy water plant as within the TV series.
he remained within occupied Denmark but eventually did leave Denmark, first to Sweden, then to the USA.
In Denmark he provided safety for Jewish physisist who escaped Nazi Germany.
Allow me to requote another piece from the thread.



jcbc3 quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Henri Greuter


...
Another case I've learned about due to my profession: Many scientists rate Albert Einstein as the biggest scientist ever when he discovered E=MC2 and all that is related with that, including the built-up of the atom and how atomic energy was discovered before and during the war.
It is however suggested that the Danish scientist Niels Bohr contributed much more to the understanding of nuclear fysics than anybody else. But what worked against Bohr is that he gained that knowledge in the Norwegion heavy water plant, occupied by the Germans and used in their quest to develop their atomic bomb. And in his fascination to split the atom and understand all of that, Bohr never realized that the Nazi's were primarily interested in using that technology for bombs and not for the scientifical significance of the discovery itself. Eventually, Einstein himself made a message for Bohr which was smuggled into the Heavy Water plant and Bohr finaaly saw the light at last. Bohr escaped and went working for the Allied but his reputation tarnished ever since.
...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Bohr's reputation tarnished? NEVER heard that as a Dane and I can ASSURE you that the example can't be similar to the British spurning Seaman, as Bohr is held in the highest esteem here in Denmark.

And according to at least This biography Bohr knew VERY well, what the Germans were up to AND warned the Americans in 1939 thereby pushing for the Manahattan programme to be launched:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...After Hitler took power in Germany, Bohr was deeply concerned for his colleagues there, and offered a place for many escaping Jewish scientists to live and work. He later donated his gold Nobel medal to the Finnish war effort. In 1939 Bohr visited the United States with the news from Lise Meitner (who had escaped German-occupied Austria) that German scientists were working on splitting the atom. This spurred the United States to launch the Manhattan Project to develop the atomic bomb. Shortly after Bohr's return home, the German army occupied Denmark. Three years later Bohr's family fled to Sweden in a fishing boat. Then Bohr and his son Aage left Sweden traveling in the empty bomb rack of a British military plane. They ultimately went to the United States, where both joined the government's team of physicists working on atomic bomb at Los Alamos...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I know you to be a very serious and correct person Henri G. so I would like you to provide links to article where I can see Bohr's "bad" reputation substantiated, because frankly this is totally new to me.


end of quote.



jcbc3:

Danmark has every right to be proud of Niels Bohs, as scientist as well as resistance man against the Nazis.
My accusations against Niels Bohr were based on a textbook piece that can't be right, and if right, must have been about another scientist. I have an idea who the real man was but I have accused one sientlist falsely, I am not going to do that a second time. I have read that passage and I know there must have been a scientist who compromised himself by supporting the early investigations for an atomic bomb.
That was NOT Niels Bohr.
Whatever TV company made that TV series "Codename Intrepid"starring David Niven, they have tarnished the reputation of Niels Bohr in a bad manner he didn't deserve.
I herby apologize myself for falsely suggesting a great scientist having been a mano of dishoner. he was everything but.
I wrote all this down since he deserves to be rehabilitatde by the person who accused him. I hereby did so.


I also apologize to al race fans for brining up non-racing history into this thread yet again but I felt it as an obligation. I dragged Niels Bohr in this thread, I made suggestions based on assumptions, I herbey present the facts that prove me wrong.
But I don't regret to be wrong to be honest. (only very, very embarrased)



Henri Greuter

[jcbc3]

It's all good Henri.

We are all sometime mistaken on something. Good on you that you acknowledge the fact publicly. Many could learn a lesson here.


Back to topic, the Seaman programme was shown in Denmark two days ago, and I made a point of watching it. What a waste of time. I especially disliked the tag-line, Englands forgotten race driver, or some such drivel.

I watched it with a good friend that has absolutely no interest in motorsport and couldn't name one single pre-war racing driver if his life depended on it. His take on the show was:

"I don't think the casual viewer ever "forgot" Seaman as he is as 'remembered' by them as little as anyone else. And to the motorsport fan (i.e. me, jcbc3) he is very well remembered."

Of course as we watched the show I told him about Atlas and DCN and that he should borrow my 'Racing the Silver Arrows' so he could be a bit more informed. He declined on the grounds that the show didn't wet his appetite that much. Some people just doesn't get it.