43 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

One topic that did come up at Wednesday's Northern Get-together (though only between Roger and myself, I'm afraid) was the opinion that apart from some oval tracks, Pau was possibly the least changed race circuit in regular use, anywhere in the world.

It was first used in 1933 and now, 72 years later, the actual line of the circuit appears EXACTLY the same as it ever was.

Is there anywhere else that can boast that?

[Twin Window]

I imagine that the Isle of Man TT course pips it Barry...

[Ray Bell]

The Brighton Speed Trials course, of course...

There must be a hillclimb, like Pikes Peak maybe, somewhere too.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The Brighton Speed Trials course, of course...

There must be a hillclimb, like Pikes Peak maybe, somewhere too.

Neither Brighton nor Pikes Peak take place on circuits

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
There must be a hillclimb.

There is....Shelsley Walsh has had the same layout (althought I think the finish line was moved back and forth along the top straight a bit in the early days giving different actual lengths) since 1905.
Here's Higginson's prototype Vauxhall 30/98 not far from the startline in 1913 and the hedge,barns etc look much the same today!

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com
Motor Sport Books and Photos . Est 1985

[Darren Galpin]

The Isle of Man TT circuit was first used in 1908. The Milwaukee Mile would beat it though, having been first used in 1903.

[Paolo]

It would be interesting to check how the laptimes around these circuits changed in the course of years. For comparable machinery, of course.
I'll leave the definition of "comparable" to anyone willing to provide laptime info...

[Darren Galpin]

OK, data for Milwaukee:

1908 - 24 hr Endurance race was won by a Locomobile at 41.33 mph
The fastest speed for a race win was in the Augie Jonas Cup, by Harry Nelson in a Pope-Hartford, who did 10 miles at 54.2 mph. Ray Harround did a 5 mile exhibition race in his Harroun Sneezer at 57.32 mph.

2004 - Qualifying speed for a Champ Car race was 181.150 mph by Ryan Hunter-Reay. Fastest race lap was 170.696 mph.

[Ray Bell]

Mount Panorama was the same from 1938 to 1986... though the surface changed and the width...

The original lap record was not recorded by John Medley in the AGP book, so we'll just take it from the 1939 record, which IIRC was around 3:03 for Alf Barrett in the Alfa Tipo B. At the time of the alteration of the circuit, the outright lap record was 2:09.7 for Niel Allen, but that was set in 1970.

That record, 108mph, compares with the average speed for the original race at 55.7mph, by the way... but with a gravel surface in 1938. Barrett's record was on a sealed surface and wasn't beaten for about ten years either.

So the record came from the 3:03 (or so) to 2:09.7 in about 20 years... even though the figures cover the record movement for over 45 years.

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The Brighton Speed Trials course, of course...
.

Brighton Speed Trials course is only half what it used to be ..;)

[Ray Bell]

What about the Geelong Sprints then?

I'm sure they've got a bit of history...

[David McKinney]

OK, as I seem to be the only one trying to keep this to Barry's original point, ie circuits, I'll go wityh the flow and change my mindset to "venues".....

Don't think Geelong started till the '50s, Ray

[Ray Bell]

Yeah, I know it's a bit of a stretch to include sprints, but hillclimbs I'd think would be somewhat relevant.

Still not circuits of course, but offering many of the characteristics thereof...

[Slyder]

I believe Road America is still the same as well.

[Darren Galpin]

No - there have been two different configurations at Elkhart Lake.

http://www.silhouet....cks/roadam.html

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
The Isle of Man TT circuit was first used in 1908. The Milwaukee Mile would beat it though, having been first used in 1903.

Surely the IOM circuit was first used in 1905 for the first car TT,last used for cars in 1922?

[Darren Galpin]

The 1905 circuit was longer, going from Douglas to Castletown, then to Peel, rejoining what is the modern circuit at Kirkmichael. It was 52 miles long, as opposed to 37.5 for the 1908 version which is what is now still used.

See http://www.silhouet....cks/manxtt.html - the map at the bottom.

[Slyder]

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
No - there have been two different configurations at Elkhart Lake.

http://www.silhouet....cks/roadam.html

Oh, well if it comes to that then I guess.

I was aware of the old Elkhart Lake circuit but thought they were referring to any significant changes to the track itself. Like the O-Ring turning into the A-1 (a bloody shame to say the least)

[wildman]

Pacific Raceways in Washington state (né Seattle International Raceway, né Kent International Raceway) still uses the same configuration as when it was built in 1959.



BTW, Slyder, Road America has changed. A few years ago a chicane was installed to slow the entry to the Kink, particularly for Superbike racing. The original course configuration, though, is still used for cars.

[simonlewisbooks]

Mallory Park has had some chicanes added for bikes but I havn't been there for a few years so can't recall of cars still use the original 1953 layout or have been funneled into the new chicane before the esses as well?
If so it's a pity, the esses was pretty damned exciting, more exciting than any stop-go chicane will ever be ...

Goodwood has been the same since 1950 I think (at the first few meetings it had no chicane)

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

[Nordic1]

A bit out my depth here, but has Thruxton been messed with or is it the same as when it opened?

Lydden hill has escaped the track planners I think as well.

[Mark A]

Mallory Park is still the proper layout for cars, it's only the bikes that use the 2 chicanes.

[Darren Galpin]

Thruxton has seen four iterations since it opened - http://www.silhouet....s/thruxton.html .

[Pils1989]

Apparently Mettet, Belgium, stayed the same until the end of car racing there.

[TooTall]

Willow Springs Raceway north of Los Angeles was first used in November, 1953 and the layout has not changed since. It's the only road course I know of that has been run in both directions. I've also been told that the track was designed by Ken Miles who hopped on a bulldozer used it to mark the layout. Don't know how true that one is. I've also been told by more reliable sources that Miles laid out the short-lived Paramount Ranch circuit by driving throught the scrub brush in his VW Beetle.

Cheers,
Kurt

[David Lawson]

Surely Indianapolis has remained the same other than the removal of the brick surface.

David

[Barry Boor]

WOW! 25 posts since I started the thread this morning.

Clearly there are a few candidates - the I.O.M being the most obvious.

Race circuits was my criteria, so, sorry, but I don't count sprints or hill climbs.

Also, I did add the rider "apart from ovals".

As far as the I.O.M goes.... I was really looking for tracks where cars raced from the start and STILL DO! So I'm throwing out the I.O.M too. I suppose I should have specified the car aspect.

Seattle certainly qualifies, but has only been there since 1960. Similarly, Mallory is 'only' 50 years old. So, so far, Pau seems to be the oldest unchanged, continuous use, non-oval French circuit that is between 1 and 2 miles long and has a corner named Station....

[chofar]

To keep the french scope, although much recent than Pau, the Dijon-Prenois track remains unscathered from 1977 to now. That is if we consider the first (1972-1976) version to be a preliminary design (too short). They just add for club races an artificial chicane before the Pouas curve since a Lamborghini Diablo made rollovers in that section. How do you open the doors of a turned-over Diablo ? :

[LB]

Pau isn't a perminant circuit either so should it reallly count? Also according to Motor racingcircuits.net it changed slightly between 1933 and 1935

[Barry Boor]

Fair enough - but that's still 70 years.....

[Vitesse2]

Is the Chimay historic meeting held on the complete 1926-72 circuit?

Again not a permanent circuit, but older than Pau. And admittedly not used from 1973 until the late 90s(?)

Some of the circuit permutations at the Buenos Aires Autodrome are probably unchanged since the early 1950s.

[Pils1989]

Nope, they use the modern version at Chimay.


EDIT I agree it's a bit less interesting. Like LM Classic with the non-permanent chicanes.

[h4887]

I know I'm a reactionary old curmudgeon but it seems to me that in modern times all circuit changes have been for the worse. Can anyone think of some that have been improved?

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
One topic that did come up at Wednesday's Northern Get-together (though only between Roger and myself, I'm afraid) was the opinion that apart from some oval tracks, Pau was possibly the least changed race circuit in regular use, anywhere in the world.

It's amazing how many ovals have changed. I know of a 1/4 mile oval in Northern California that was changed at least four times in a little less than two years! (widened, wall moved back, slightly lengthened, and then finally it was paved and banked!).

[Vicuna]

Without actually adding to the mix, may I just add - what a bloody brilliant topic!

[ggnagy]

Originally posted by wildman
Pacific Raceways in Washington state (né Seattle International Raceway, né Kent International Raceway) still uses the same configuration as when it was built in 1959.



BTW, Slyder, Road America has changed. A few years ago a chicane was installed to slow the entry to the Kink, particularly for Superbike racing. The original course configuration, though, is still used for cars.

Actually, IIRC, the front straight was realigned with turn 10 being added about mid straight a few years back. Part of SCCA certification. This year turn nine was majorly realigned. Everyone is supposedly setting track records.

[TheStranger]

Originally posted by h4887
I know I'm a reactionary old curmudgeon but it seems to me that in modern times all circuit changes have been for the worse. Can anyone think of some that have been improved?

We'll have to find out next week when the race happens, but the realigned Festival Curves at Portland from what I'm hearing won't be as much of a bottleneck to the Champcars as they have been in the past.

Not really "modern" but Mid-Ohio's straightening of the section into the woods and Riverside's addition of the dogleg and faster T9 have to count here as well.

[LittleChris]

Barry,

Didn't a chicane appear at Pau in the early - mid seventies a couple of corners before the start / finish ? And I also thought that one appeared at Foch later o, although I believe this is largely composed of motorway cones.

Chris

[MCS]

Originally posted by TheStranger


We'll have to find out next week when the race happens, but the realigned Festival Curves at Portland from what I'm hearing won't be as much of a bottleneck to the Champcars as they have been in the past.

Not really "modern" but Mid-Ohio's straightening of the section into the woods and Riverside's addition of the dogleg and faster T9 have to count here as well.

Er, what?

Since when?

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by h4887
I know I'm a reactionary old curmudgeon but it seems to me that in modern times all circuit changes have been for the worse. Can anyone think of some that have been improved?

Some might say the straightening out of Eau Rouge at Spa for the first car GP there in 1983 made it even faster and more of a challenge. It was distinct ess bend untill then unchanged in most respects since it was icorporated in the layout just before the war, now it's a much faster flick. But is it better?

Brands had the Dingle Dell chicane installed for "safety reasons" and then removed over a decade later... for "safety reasons"! I always thought the airbourne antics there were more interesting than anything I saw on the orignal corner, and whats there now is more or less back to how it was originally. So was that chicane the only one in the world that was more exiciting than the corner it replaced?

Copse at Silverstone is possibly more exciting that it was before the 1990s modifications. Some people will say Bridge is better than what was there before. Personally I think the original layout was great and the current one is .... er.. not!

Pau - Yes there was a chcane added in the late 70s and so I'm afraid it doesn't really count as unaltered Barry.

Does the Circuit de Ramparts at Angouleme count? Is the modern retro event a real race meeting or a demonstration? If it's real racing that track layout must date back to 1939.

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com
Motor Racing Books and Photos. Est 1985.

[TheStranger]

Originally posted by MCS


Er, what?

Since when?

Mid-Ohio: http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=79467

Portland: http://www.champcarf...ead.php?t=24292

[Hieronymus]

...and what about the oldest GP circuit that is still being used in its original form???

I think of the EAST LONDON GP circuit in South Africa. First race was in July 1959. They still use the same circuit today.

[David McKinney]

Pau started as a Grand Prix circuit long before
Or did you mean world championship Formula 1 GPs?

[Hieronymus]

Yes, David

I have fallen in the trap here, where so many people think that GP racing began in 1950!! Monday morning malfunction...

I had very much 1950 and later in mind, when I posted.