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Alonso's driving style


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#101 Arrow

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Posted 06 July 2005 - 06:49

Originally posted by F1Champion


Makes you won't where most of the drivers on the grid would be without TC. It came into place when Kimi and Alonso and most of the younger generation came into F1. It would be good to see the effects of their speed with it removed.


This isnt a "who can use traction control the least" competition.
The best talents take advantage of everything and maximize it, which is obviously what Alonso does with traction control. He doesnt need it, he just uses it better than most.

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#102 DriftDevil

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Posted 06 July 2005 - 06:51

Originally posted by Jacaré
I remember that telemetry speeds always showed Hakkinen fastest in such corners as Eau Rouge, Bridge, 130R etc. Also medium fast corners like turn 1 at Hockenheim or last corner at A1, last corner at Catalunya, Hakkinen was naturally very quick. But there's not much time to be made if you are the fastest in the fastest corners. It's the slow ones where the time is made. Michael Schumacher is WDC because he's fastest in the slowest corners, for example pitlane entry etc


Villeneuve, Hakkinen, Raikkonen and Montoya are the main drivers of the last few years who are sensationally quick through the fast corners, stuff that takes big balls and huge commitment. Seeing these guys qualifying at Spa, Suzuka and Silverstone always made/makes (for Hakkinen) my spine tingle. I have Villeneuve's silverstone qualy lap in 1998 on tape where he managed to plant the underpowered Williams Mecachrome 3rd on the grid, he achieved this by taking Copse flat out, at the test before that race, that's all he was setting the car up for. Trimming it more and more, that was his goal. It helped alot too...... :up:

All these guys are simply fearless.

#103 Pep

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 10:52

Interview today with Alonso (Renault web) :

Q:One of the things that emerges from those debriefings is that you have a unique style – an aggressive approach with the car’s steering. Is that deliberate?

Alonso: It is not something I realise I am doing – but it is what the telemetry shows. I think it may be a way of adapting to the car, because when I was at Minardi and when I tested for Jaguar, I didn’t drive like this. The technique allows me to control the understeer easily – I turn in later than many drivers, and do it aggressively. Once I have done that, I can just make small adjustments to the steering from the apex and find the right balance to be quick on the exit. Everybody has their style, and that is mine at the moment. But it is always changing – the car is never the same from one lap to the next, the reactions and conditions evolve all the time. Ultimately, I don’t think the style is the important thing; it is about how well you can adapt to the way the car changes all the way through the race.

#104 ivanalesi

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 22:11

This confirms the theory that FA just uses the car's electronics/characteristics because he wants it, not that he cant go w/o them. Btw, I'm surprised that you say he's using a lot of TC on exit. I think he's definetely giving some hard time to the engine on his late sudden entry, otherwise he has a very good car control. If he has done the same thing in F3000(i remember only his Spa win) this should be pretty impressive. I love drivers working a lot with the wheel :love: Sadly Fisi wants to setup his car properly long time before Alonso does it :|

#105 Platipus

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 01:48

Alonso style what?

Alonso just addapt his drive to the track, and the car changing gripp...

he can be smooth, and attacking somes of corners, he's as MS a Kart feeling pilot, he like when car slide understeer, but this situation comes on last laps when tyres ares dead.

only two pilots ares like that, ALonso ans MS, one is fighting for his first title, the other have won all last tiltes avaible...

#106 JayWay

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Posted 14 July 2005 - 04:05

It sounds like Schumacher and Alonso are similar in that they both find speed in the middle of a corner through tiny adjustments and finding balance. The difference being that they both arrive at that point (mid-corner) differently. Schumacher does so through the natural 'nevousness' of the setup, while Alonso directs the car to that point using drastic throttle and steering input.

I guess Alonso's deal is finding a compromise. An understeering car is neutralized by aggressive input, leading the car to the ideal entrance.

I wonder if that early throttle input alluded to is the process of balancing the car, while the late travel throttle input is simply him hammering the throttle and relying on TC once he's found the balance.

#107 DoS

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Posted 14 July 2005 - 06:37

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Drivers arent really taught the proper way to drive in their careers, and there really arent people who can teach them. Its rare to have engineers that can really help the driver pilot the car better, especially in this era of engineers having book experience and not racing experience. Most unfortunately your racing driver just doesnt want to learn or do things a different way.


thanx for the enlightment Ross ! Lets throw MS, RS, JT, DC , FM and the rest of those dumb monkeys out of F1, they obviously can't drive a nail onto a wooden plank !
Also i guess that Salo was talking crap and couldn't tell that alonso used a different steering setting so his high input translated in normal wheel angles :rolleyes:
whoever cant see the undesteerish style of Alonso is just blind !

edit: having read the rest of the posts in this tread i have to add the following.
first making wide generalizations, such as that the majority of racing drivers that compete at the highest level drive completely "instinctively" out of their "started karting at 4" background is both inaccurate and ignorant IMO. This way of thinking was basically fostered with older generations of drivers and does not apply anymore, not if you want to compete at the level of F1. Current drivers are technically erudite and also have a plethora of input with respect to different driving styles and techniques, both generally and specific (i.e. telemetry).
As far Alonso is concerned, well he is definetely special and his style looks too "understeerish" compared to every other driver on the grid (even DC). Something like a "Sebastian Loeb of F1"

#108 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 July 2005 - 07:50

Originally posted by DoS
Current drivers are technically erudite





:rotfl:




Alonso said it himself, he turns in late.

#109 prty

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 11:36

I just found here an extract of an article of the F1 magazine "F1 Racing", regarding Alonso's driving style. It's in Spanish, so I translated it (apologizes for my bad English).


In it's September version, their star editor Peter Windsor (he is the guy that makes the questions in the FIA press conferences), spent 10 pages analyzing Alonso's driving style. This is an extract from the large article in this month's mag, labelled "Alonso, a champion's profile".

Simple, clean, effective. Such an easy technique, in fact, that no one in this planet has managed to do it in the same way yet.

Therefore, under these simple looks, there is an actually more complex driver, a driver who has the same creative talent that Michael Schumacher has shown all these years. I say "creative" because Fernando has observed, experimented, and then found his own way. There is nothing artificial nor premade in Fernando Alonso, despite the stablished parameters by the technical briefings, full of data. He drives his own races, he thinks his own ideas.

So we start from the beggining; from the entry of, let's say, a right hand corner in second gear. There are a lot, they are characteristic in the F1 calendar

Compared to the entry of Jarno Trulli, Michael Schumacher, or Fisichella, the initial steering wheel movement of Fernando is amazingly sudden. Period. You can see it in TV shots. And one thinks "Damn. Interesting. Different. Passionate. Fast." And then think "In that case, why don't the others do that?"

But do what, exactly? No doubt, in this initial phase of the corner, he steers faster and more than Michael and Kimi, and no doubt that Michael and Kimi do have an aproximate idea of what they try to archieve. The curious thing is, Fernando does not generate any oversteering with his initial movement, while Juan Pablo Montoya gives energy to the rear, for example. Or Felipe Massa. Then again, why? The Renault remains basicly neutral, but he does it within such a high aproximation speed. So, he is not clean because he is slow, it's obvious by the way. He is clean. And fast. And agressive.

So, let's study his breaking, the action inmediatly before his amazing aport of steering. In the beggining, almost in a non noticiable manner, Fernando touches the brakes before slamming heavily, more heavily than Fisichella, for example. He generates an enormous initial negative G force, reducing the speed of the car efficiently when the aerodynamic help is bigger, he then releases the pedal in a smooth movement which reflects perfectly his force increase in the corner.

Now, his breaking is incredibly precise and smooth, and it's directly related to his initial steering movement. He starts to steer exactly when he starts to release the brake pedal.

But here is the key: in that point, the Renault does not start to understeer in the classical sense of the word (with the slip angle of the front wheels larger than the rear wheels throught the corner), it doesn't makes a sudden oversteering movement which destroys the tyres and makes him lose time either (because of polar momentum effects). Instead, he adopts the rarest thing in F1: "neutral steering", capitalised by a temperature increase of the tyres, and by the transitory effects of the polar momentum of the car. So, with faster entry speeds than his team mate, Fernando can carry the Renault to the minimal speed in the middle of the corner (usually near the geometrical apex), change quickly the direction (steering more against the decreasing pressure on the brakes), and then give the R25 a dragster like exit.

The bennefits of the neutral steering? I think the answer is that usually Fernando can develop greater entry forces, throwing the car further than the initial oversteering or understeering, allowing the front displacement angles to react greatly and quickly in the temperature of the tyres. The front end of the car gains grip almost when it loses it, and Fernando amplify it by keeping the weight of the car away from the front end, when the turning angle increases.

This way, Fernando breaks the mould. He found a way to increase the grip of the tyre without depending of the usual (and weak) circumstances: a perfect use of the steering, brakes, and throttle to manipulate the car's mass and maximize the tyre grip. Fernando's style is more adaptable to changing conditions, the biggest enemy of the drivers.

In the first place, he manages with this to never brake too much to throw the car to the apex. He generates his grip with the direction and sensible use of brakes, not because a not compensated steering nor excessive use of the brakes (which usually make other drivers lock their front wheels). Fernando's style allows him to avoid all that, being able to be disciplined enough to slow down in the middle corner to allow the fastest possible exit.

Alonso's style is indicative of his amazing talent and intelligence.

#110 magicalonso

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 12:06

Thanks prty, amazing information! :up:
Taking this into account Alonso because of his style may even have benefitted from the new tyre rules contrary to what most were expecting.

#111 armonico

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 13:05

thanks prty.

I just read the article and wanted to put the link here but you anticipated me and even translated it. :up:

magicalonso, I also agree with your comment.

#112 SennasCat

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 13:27

Despite the absolute crapbagging it receives on this BB, articles just like that are the reason the F1 racing is the only print mag subscription that I have, and the only 'net one I have is AtlasF1.

PS I never really thought that Alfonso was the real deal. Until part of the time last year, and pretty much every performance this year. He is the goods.

#113 wati

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 15:43

Originally posted by Jacaré
But there's not much time to be made if you are the fastest in the fastest corners. It's the slow ones where the time is made.


Wrong. Going faster in fast corners gains you more time than going a bit faster around slow ones.

#114 Pep

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 18:17

Some journalists gave his opinion in F1 Racing when the season started about who would excel in the Alonso-Fisi duel:

Steve Matchett:

Difícil decirlo: los dos son pilotos duros, audaces. Me imagino que mucho dependerá de los rasgos del R25, cómo reaccione en pista, cuál de los dos tenga más confianza en el coche, se sienta más capaz de lanzarse. Los dos prefieren un comportamiento neutro, pero Alonso, con su tardía entrada en curva, parece bien adaptado para lidiar con el subviraje a media curva. A la inversa, Fisichella parece más capaz de manejar el sobreviraje. Si el menor apoyo y gomas más duras aumentan la tendencia del coche a subvirar, tendré que apostar por Fernando.

Hard to say: both are hard and audacious drivers. I imagine that a lot will depend on the characteristics of the R25, how it reacts on the track, who is more confident with the car and is able to risk more. Both prefer a neutral behaviour, but Alonso, with his late entry in corners, seems more able to cope with understeer in the middle of turns. Contrary, Fisi seems more able to cope with oversteer. If the reduction of aerodynamics and harder tyres increase the car's tendency to understeer, I'll have to bet for Alonso.

Peter Windsor:

Por muy ardiente que sea este enfrentamiento latino, tratemos de ser analíticos: Fernando castigará más los neumáticos delanteros -nadie en F1 tiene una entrada en curva más agresiva- así que por definición los traseros estarán bien. Pero Fisi [...]

In spite of this hot latin duel, let's try to be analitical: Fernando will punish more his front wheels -nobody in F1 has a more agresive entry on corners- so the rear tyres should be ok. But Fisi [...]

#115 F1Champion

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 18:30

So his driving style works because of the neutral Renault??? :confused:

Might make his 2004 season more explainable.

#116 Sir Frank

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 20:39

Originally posted by wati


Wrong. Going faster in fast corners gains you more time than going a bit faster around slow ones.


nay,

prty :up: thanks a lot

#117 Don Speekingleesh

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 21:41

Originally posted by Steve Williams
Despite the absolute crapbagging it receives on this BB, articles just like that are the reason the F1 racing is the only print mag subscription that I have, and the only 'net one I have is AtlasF1.

PS I never really thought that Alfonso was the real deal. Until part of the time last year, and pretty much every performance this year. He is the goods.


Ditto. (Though I don't have a sub, because I can get it in the shops sooner than waiting for the post.)

#118 ivanalesi

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 23:47

Originally posted by wati


Wrong. Going faster in fast corners gains you more time than going a bit faster around slow ones.


Say you go 10kph faster in a 250kph corner and you go 5kph faster in 110kph corner, it's the percentage, clearly slower corners are more important and many of them are longer on time.

#119 jokuvaan

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 09:56

I remember Alonso saying that slow corners are more important(well atleast for him).

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#120 Dolph

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 15:29

Originally posted by wati


Wrong. Going faster in fast corners gains you more time than going a bit faster around slow ones.


How so?

2 km/h faster than 200 km/h is 1% faster
2 km /h faster than 100 km/h is 2% faster...

#121 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 15:32

And you tend to spend more physical time covering the straight exiting a slow turn so the advantage is carried through that section.

#122 wati

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 16:05

Hm.

"The Parabolica:

It is not as importaint because it is slow, and gaining 10% here isn't as worthwhile as gaining 10% in a high speed turn."

Steve Smith, Four wheel drift

#123 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 16:11

Which track, which series, which year, which driver?

At Monza you dont push Parabolica because you dont want mid corner or exit understeer. You sacrifice the entry slightly to get flung down the straight as hard as you can.

#124 ivanalesi

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 19:28

10% in a fast corner is more important than 10% in a slow one, simply because the car is accelerating way too slower out of the fast one and this 10% advantage goes for more time - of course this is all true if we have 2 corners covered in the same time.
But say 10% in a fast corner is very very big difference on setup and to drivers its almost impossible to make this time up, whereas in a 100kph corner it is possible, cars stop at faster rate at this speed and steering can cause fast changes in grip, acceleration is more sensitive and so on.

#125 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 19:31

You spend more seconds covering a straight after a slow corner, and every second is one more that you're carrying your speed advantage. Id rather have 1mph extra coming off the backside hairpin at Montreal, than 1mph through 130R at Suzuka.

#126 bern@rd

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 19:39

Originally posted by wati
Hm.

"The Parabolica:

It is not as importaint because it is slow, and gaining 10% here isn't as worthwhile as gaining 10% in a high speed turn."

Steve Smith, Four wheel drift

For example a slow turn takes 5sec, fast turn 2 sec to drive.
10% better driving in slow turn is 0,5sec faster lap time, while 10% better fast turn means a 0,2sec faster lap time.
Mathematics.

5,0/10=0,5
2,0/10=0,2

;)

#127 Platipus

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 01:29

Originally posted by bern@rd

For example a slow turn takes 5sec, fast turn 2 sec to drive.
10% better driving in slow turn is 0,5sec faster lap time, while 10% better fast turn means a 0,2sec faster lap time.
Mathematics.

5,0/10=0,5
2,0/10=0,2

;)


first dynamics of a car is not linear, second ,
there are more slow corners and chicanes than fast one!

it's because that teams gaining more times in slower parts than fast ones!

aller, au dodo!

#128 mrudewyc

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 02:13

Originally posted by bern@rd

For example a slow turn takes 5sec, fast turn 2 sec to drive.
10% better driving in slow turn is 0,5sec faster lap time, while 10% better fast turn means a 0,2sec faster lap time.
Mathematics.

5,0/10=0,5
2,0/10=0,2

;)


That may well be correct if you're only considering the corner and not the following straight :)

#129 BMW4life

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 02:34

For example a slow turn takes 5sec, fast turn 2 sec to drive.
10% better driving in slow turn is 0,5sec faster lap time, while 10% better fast turn means a 0,2sec faster lap time.
Mathematics.

5,0/10=0,5
2,0/10=0,2



Guys, there are far more slower corners than fast ones on the calendar. :kiss: